| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 11:19:42
With the lingering foot problems Forsy has been forced to cut a brilliant carreer short, and after this months statments on how he is having trouble keeping his ballance on skates it looks as though his career may finally be done. The question is does he belong in the Hall of Fame?
his list of awards and acomplishments are as good as anyones:
2006 Olympic Gold Medal
2002-03 NHL - Hart Trophy (MVP)
2002-03 NHL - Art Ross Trophy (Leading Scorer)
2002-03 NHL - Bud Light Plus/Minus Award
2002-03 NHL - First All-Star Team
2002-03 Played in NHL All-Star
2000-01 Stanley Cup
2000-01 Played in NHL All-Star
1998-99 NHL - First All-Star Team
1998-99 Played in NHL All-Star
1997-98 NHL - First All-Star Team
1997-98 Played in NHL All-Star
1995-96 Stanley Cup
1995-96 Played in NHL All-Star
1994-95 NHL - Calder Memorial Trophy (Rookie of the Year)
1994-95 NHL - All-Rookie Team
1994 Olympic Gold Medal
he is well over a point per game he has the stanly cups the only knock is longevity,, he is perhaps the most complete player of his generations i would only argue Sergei Federov as his rival in that category, he may even be the most complete of all time,, so what do you say?
Pasty |
| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/22/2010 : 03:33:25
I just noticed that no one put up Foppa's actual NHL numbers on this thread, here are his career totals:
reg. season: 706gp - 249 g - 636 a - 885 pts +242
playoffs: 151 gp - 64 g - 107 a - 171 pts +54
So, for you younger guys out there, the numbers might seem a little on the low side, and certainly we are talking about a player who might have to retire early because of recurring foot issues.
But check out the playoff stats . . . they are as good as anyone's. In terms of playoff points per game, Forsberg ranks #11 all-time. Amazing for me is that a guy known way more for his assists and playmaking, he really brought it in the playoffs, and somehow ranks 20th all time in playoff goals! Only the great Mike Bossy is in the top twenty with a comparably short career . . . I find this speaks of Foppa's amazing ability to do whatever was required to win.
Internationally, here are Forsberg's stats from World Championships and Olympic play:
63gp - 20 goals 37 assists 57 points
Included in that is 2 Olympic gold medals, 2 WC gold medals plus 3 silvers, and a World Cup bronze.
In 11 international tournaments when Forsberg played for team Sweden, they only missed getting a medal 3 times, the last one being 2010 where he could barely skate in 4 games.
Just more food for thought.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| 99pickles |
Posted - 08/21/2010 : 10:22:59
Undoubtedly one of the greatest handful of players that we'll ever have seen play hockey...clearly he's a shoe-in!
3-time first team all-star, multiple Stanley Cups, and a Hart Trophy are the main stats that lock this one up. |
| Deaner |
Posted - 08/20/2010 : 18:10:54
definatly in, just look up top at the guys numbers...incredible. |
| Guest5052 |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 15:48:34
My two cents: Forsberg is a sure fire hall of famer. No question. For me he was a great player in the game for long enough.
But calling him better than Lemieux.... thats a bit much. I suspect that thats remembering the later years Lemieux. Mario was unbelievable in his prime. I'm not even sure I could say he was better than Stevie Y or Sakic, but i'd appreciate the debate there. Remeber that Colorado team won the Cup when Forsberg got hurt in the second round. You could never in a million years imagine Pitts winning the cup sans Mario (at least I couldnt).
And as far as making players around you better, surely rob Brown's 49 goals has to rank up there in that category.
As far as that list goes, I agree with the point that playing with good players isnt such a dramtic criteria. However, to put Paul MacLean in that group is an offence to dale Hawerchuk... yes I know he had some decent stats, but anyone in Winnipeg will tell you that he was riding shot gun all the way.
Still it seems unanimous that Forsberg goes in.... incidentally his relatively short lived dominance is why Neely got in and why I'd vote Lindros in. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 09:22:54
the wingman argument is interesting, but I'd have to agree that you can't take anything away from Forsberg just because he played with Sakic - I think both contributed to each other's games over time. Of the two, which was more dominant? Depended on the night.
Bean's list is telling - a lot of the greatest scoring players of all time played significant parts of their careers with other very good players. Forsberg is no exception. However - the true greats were also able to make marginal players around them better. Forsberg helped turn players like Valeri Kamensky, Claude Lemieux, Scott Young, etc, into poolie gold - who are those players without teammates like Forsberg and Sakic? Are they having 70-80 point seasons playing for other teams? Thats what separates the "elites" from the "really goods" |
| irvine |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 01:46:04
I'd also like to point out, for all three (Sakic, Forsberg & Bourque), but mainly Bourque.. that none of these three skewed each others numbers.
Bourque only played a little over 90 games with Colorado.
So, Bourque really had Neely, Janney, oates and Hodge... Who, I'd only say Oates was of real quality and still produces many 80+, 90+ point season.
God, how Bourque made me a hockey fan. He'll forever be my favorite player.
Irvine/prez. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 10:32:17
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
(Last 30 years, all-time best, not including goalies)
1aGretzky, 1b-Orr, 3-Lemieux, 4-Messier,
5-Forsberg, 6-Yzerman, 7-Jagr
This is off the top of my head, so I am bound to create some kind of emotional response by leaving someone off here . . . but go ahead, discuss!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
You want an emotional response? Okay.....tell me, how do you have Colton Orr tied with Gretzky as the best ever? At first i thought you meant Bobby Orr, but you did say last 30 years and #4 retired just over 30 years ago so being a Leafs fan, i have to assume you mean Colton Orr? 
OK, all kidding aside Slozo, i have to agree, Forsberg "stepped up" when needed as well as anyone i can recall seeing play! Have a look at his stat lines and it's crazy how many games this guy missed. Only once did he play a full 82 game sched and only 4 other times did he play 70+. It really is a shame he missed so much hockey, for both him and us as fans. |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 10:20:28
Your list of wingmen, Beans, is exactly why I discard the notion of a Sakic (in this case) diminishing the accomplishments of a player as good as Forsberg.
But looking at how really good those wingmen were, in my opinion, is worth looking at, especially when they are relatively close in value - as is the case here with Forsberg and Sakic. They certainly didn't play together all the time, but like Lemieux and Jagr, when they did, they were pretty unstoppable.
And in this case, where Sakic is maybe #8 on my list, it is indeed worth looking at when the two played together who was the more dominant. Nothing against Sakic at all - he was always one of my favourite players, in fact - but he was not quite at Foppa's level of dominance.
I hear your Messier argument, and it's a good one - and I would agree with you but for two things, IMHO: #1 - longevity counts for something, and #2 - that '94 Rangers team had no one close to Messier's level, which was already diminished at that stage of the game. And his leadership that year, the "guarantee win" . . . it was the stuff of legends, and I have to say it edges out Forsberg because of it.
Yes, perhaps in overall talent Forsberg was better . . . but the aforementioned leadership, longevity and better goal scorer (I value them a bit more highly than playmakers) nudges the Mess man ahead of Foppa.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 09:08:55
Slozo, I would not really disagree with much, although I would put Forberg ahead of Messier. Messier was the best leading in that time period and also seemed to also come through in the clutch, Forsberg was significantly higher skilled than Messier.
That being said, I don't think Forsberg playing with Sakic diminishes anything. Consider the list below. Here is a list of the top 20 scorers in NHL history with their 'wingmen' if you will. As you can see, there really isn't a single player on that list that did not have the benefit of playing with others brilliant players.(These are not all the great players they played with, it's off the top of my head).
Gretzky - Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson.
Messier - See above
Howe - Lidsay, Abel, Mahovolich, Delvecchio
Francis - Lemiuex, Jagr, Verbeek
Dionne - Simmer, Taylor, Robataille,
Yzerman - Shannahan, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Hull
Lemieux - Jagr, Francis, Coffey, Recchi, Trottier
Sakic- Forsberg, Bourque, Hedjuk.
Jagr - Lemieux, Trottier, Recchi, Coffey
Esposito - Orr, Hodge, Bobby Hull
Bourque - Neely, Janney, Oates, Hodge, Sakic, Forsberg
Coffey - See Messier, Gretzky, Jagr, and Lemieux
Recchi - Coffey, Jagr, Lemiuex, Trottier
Mikita - Bobby Hull, Esposito, Hodge
Trottier - Bossy, Potvin, Lemiuex, Jagr
Oates - Hull, Bourque, Bondra
Gilmour - Fleury, MacInnis, Nieuwendyk
Hawerchuk - Lafontaine, Andrychuk, Mogilny, MacLean, Steen
Kurri - See Gretzky
Robataille - Gretzky, Dionne, Hull, Yzerman
As you can see, none of the greatest scorer (or playes for that matter) did it alone. They all had a little help from their friends. |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 06:27:16
As always, it is difficult to size up a player like Forsberg and put him ahead or behind other greats, it is just so subjective, because of the teams and players around them, and the era they played in. It all adds up to changing the potential numbers a player puts up.
Like every single one of the top ten or so players all-time, they played with other great players, and Forsberg - like Lemieux with Jagr - had another all-time great in Sakic for a large part of his career. Does that diminish his accomplishments and numbers there? To me, it has to a bit, but when you see the amount of times they both played and and see where HE dominated a game, as opposed to Sakic dominating a game . . . my feeling is Forsberg dominated more games when they both played.
And on the plus side, Forsberg made guys like Kamensky look like great snipers, which they really weren't. When did Hejduk's numbers start going down, coincidence? There is a lot of evidence to suggest that Forsberg made many of the players around him so much better.
But the big thing for me, the thing that sticks in my memory, is how on at least half a dozen occasions - with both Colorado and Philly - in critical playoff situations and key regular season games - when it was a "must win" game, he took it right over, and would not be denied. These signature games are the stuff of legend, and I frankly don't have the time to look them all up and detail them . . . but they were something to behold. It is what seperates the truly great players from the great stars, and why players like Jagr - greats in their own right - are a step below players like Forsberg.
(Last 30 years, all-time best, not including goalies)
1aGretzky, 1b-Orr, 3-Lemieux, 4-Messier,
5-Forsberg, 6-Yzerman, 7-Jagr
This is off the top of my head, so I am bound to create some kind of emotional response by leaving someone off here . . . but go ahead, discuss!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| polishexpress |
Posted - 08/15/2010 : 21:34:20
My favourite: his dominating performance in the 2002 playoffs. 20 games, 27pts (9g-18a). Colorado didn't even make the Cup finals, Detroit did. The second leading scorer of the playoffs that year was Stevie Y, with 23pts in 23games.
For me, Forsberg was the reason why Colorado took detroit to 7 in the Conference finals. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 08/15/2010 : 12:03:38
Beans, I'm not sure I would put Forsberg above Lemieux - Gretzky and Lemieux were really in a class of their own - but amongst *regular* superstars, he would have been top 3 of our generation, in competition with Sakic, Yzerman, Messier.
Seems to be a consensus that he's in - strange for a thread in this forum  . So, next question - what is your favourite Forsberg memory?
I have 2:
1. As a Canucks fan, I usually found myself hating Forsberg more than liking him. The Forsberg moment I remember the most was his spear against Dan Cloutier in the early 00's. Cloutier was a crap goalie, but he was a great agitator (put goalie equipment on Burrows and you have Cloutier). He got so up in Forsberg's kitchen, that all he could do was spear him in the minerals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKD-UIOuqnI
2. 2002/03 hockey pool. No one had taken Forsberg in our pool early that year (he missed the entire season before), and I picked him up in something like round 10 of 15 as a "hope he's recovered" deal. I ended up with both him and Hejduk that year, and they pretty much won me the pool that year, 200 pts combined. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 08/15/2010 : 11:25:27
High, sickly high. Not unlike the great Bobby Orr, their careers were cut short with injury.
I would have the popular opinion in that a healthy Forsberg from 2003 until today would have been in or very near the top 10 in all time points, more than likely would have one another Cup or two, and might have been the first player ever in history to be in the triple Gold Club 4 times.
Skill wise, as I said, there have been very few that even came close to him. He was brilliant. |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/15/2010 : 09:15:10
Leafs81 - that was an amazing video.
Was there ever a time when Forsberg got knocked off the puck in the opposition zone?!? After seeing that highlight video, it would seem not . . . he really was probably #1 all-time for that particular skill, and certainly up there with the greats in his day in controlling the game at his will.
An amazing player, and in terms of skill, certainly top ten, top 5 all-time. I think the more appropriate question should be, not if he deserves to be in the HOF (obviously he is a shoo-in), but where do you rank him among the greats?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Guest9729 |
Posted - 08/15/2010 : 08:15:14
I cant believe this question is being asked. Its a no brainer. |
| OILINONTARIO |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 17:57:19
I believe that Forsberg should be disqualified from contention for the HOF based on the fact that he was quite obviously using a string tied precariously between his stick and the puck on numerous occasions. And also for the fact that he got injured every time I picked him in a pool.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2011. |
| Leafs81 |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 15:17:59
well actually this video speaks for itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRtrQ1YrCzw&feature=related |
| Leafs81 |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 14:58:10
I totally agree with all of you. Forsberg was my favourite player outside of Toronto for a long time. I absolutly loved watching him play. He was a complete player and one of the best. It's so unfortunate that he had so many injuries problems, and if he does retire we can say that he battled the whole way through to come back.
I remember watching him skating around and around protecting the puck (a la Bobby Orr) and nobody could get to him, when somebody did, Forsberg was knocking him down (a la Lindros), then creating space for his teamates and making a great pass through trafic right on the tape for the easy goal (A la Gretzky).
So yeah one of the most complete player in the game. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 13:23:17
I am not going into the numbers or awards. Nux, Alex, and Pasty have done that already. What I will say that every single time I watched Peter Forsberg, he was the best player on either team and was always on the verge of changing the game. He was possibly the toughest guy in the NHL to knock off the puck. There was no weakness in his game other than his physical health. Consider he missed part of the playoffs and the entire following seasons to come back into the playoffs the following year and OWN everyone.
He was, in my opinion, the 2nd best players of my generation. That's behind Gretzky and just ahead of Lemieux. Maybe a tie between him and Lemieux, but regardless, he was amazing.
Not only in the NHL, but Internationally. Only Forsberg, Fetisov, and Larionov have won the Olympic Gold, World Championship Gold, and Stanley Cup not once, not twice, but three times.
Both Fetisov and Larionov are in the Hall. It's only a matter of time until Forsberg is. He's first ballot in my books. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 13:08:23
Absolutely IN. Amazing player, another who unfortunately for us as fans, has had injuries cut short what could have been an even better career! Imagine the #'s if this guy could have been healthy!
As some like to say, to be in the HOF, you should have to be the best or one of the best at some point in your career. Well, clearly Forsberg fits the bill! |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 08/14/2010 : 12:10:51
in.
Forsberg is a highly complete player, the type of player that comes around once every 10-15 years. He has won at every level he has played at from junior upwards - the only medal he is missing from a very impressive career is a World Junior gold. He has won Olympic gold, IIHF World Championship, Stanley Cup. He is the only Swede to have won the "Triple Gold" twice (Stanley, Olympic, IIHF champion).
Other notables:
- 9th all time in career points/game
- 4th in assists/game (behind Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr)
- 4th all time Swedish scorer in NHL
- has never finished a season as a minus player, and is career +242
- more than ppg in both regular season and playoffs, career.
- numerous NHL awards (including Calder, Art Ross, and Hart), 3 time first team allstar
It should be a slam dunk. |
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