| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| spade632 |
Posted - 01/11/2012 : 22:20:43
Sports Illustrated just released a poll of 161 active NHL players asking them to name the most overrated player in the league.
The reults:
1) Phaneuf
2) Ovechkin
3) Gomez
4) Luongo
5) Heatley
6) Kovalchuk
7) Lecavalier
8) Boumeester
9) Kesler
10) Komisarek
11) Pronger
12) Iginla
13) Semin
14) Jokinen
15) Jovanovski
Two questions.
1) Thoughts on the above list?
2) Who do you think is the most overrated?
Have at it! :) |
| 33 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 01/17/2012 : 16:44:32
I couldn't agree more with the argument that salary shouldn't count in an "over rated player" question. Clearly here, it has in some cases.
Also, if this were 160 (or thereabouts) players polled, another thing that could definitely affect the poll would be personalities. I have no doubt in my mind that Phaneuf is not liked by a lot of other NHL players. Same goes with Luongo. I could easily see opposing players disliking him. His attitude, or the way he presents himself, can easily be frowned upon, disliked, found to be overconfident/cocky, etc. Then they see him play well but never make the playoffs for Fla, come to Van, get nominated for the Vezina but not win it, struggle in the finals last year, etc, etc, and it's easy to see how someone would consider him over rated.
Being that i judge over rated on what i'd expect, i wouldn't even put Gomez on the list. On mine, Semin would be at the top, followed closely by Bouwmeester. Jokinen? Maybe 5 years ago, but not anymore. I don't know how he can be considered overrated anymore. The name Iginla would never even come close, in fact if i had to list every player in order for the entire league, i'd have him last. Actually, no, i still wouldn't write his name down! |
| Guest5052 |
Posted - 01/17/2012 : 13:04:02
I think I agree with 81 leaf fans assessment,
that in order to engage in this discussion we need first to establish how a player is rated, and then debate wether or not they are rated too highly. The first part is not so obvious and almost certainly varies from Market to Market, group of buddies to group of buddies.
To me that makes this all the more interesting. I am curious to know how various people believe certain players are rated (not how they believe they are rated, because as someone rightly pointed out, if you were judge jury and executioner, all players would always be rated appropirately).
For Me Thornton is overrated, although his rating apepars to be lowering, so less and less so.
I also think Rick Nash is overrated. Ditto jeff Carter.
In fact, at the risk of heresy, i think Martin Broduer is overrated... I wont elaborate here but its my two cents.
This is not to say that they arent great players, they are. I just think they are "rated" higher than they should be. Remember Its possible for the best player in the world to be overrated, per se.
In terms of under rated, I would suggest Patrice Bergeron is underrated. I think hes a very good player but I dont hear too much about him.
Consideration of their national team selection is important, as someone above mentioned with Heatley, but its not always necessarily consistent with ones operception of a players rating. In other words, a player can be highly regarded in GM circles and thats not reflected in the media.
Ive said to much, but enjoyed saying it.
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| Guest4803 |
Posted - 01/17/2012 : 12:45:52
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5744
i came up with my personal criteria for overrated and it consists of two things:
- good statistics during the season
- not making the playoffs or choking in the playoffs consistently
new list:
- ovechkin
- joe thornton
- luongo
- sedins
- kovalchuk
- alfredsson
- heatley
Sedins? i see what you did according to YOUR criteria but get real bud your probably a flames or leafs fan and the only reason that your entire team isnt on this list is due to the fact they cant accomplish your first Criteria |
| foolpittier |
Posted - 01/17/2012 : 12:31:58
TIM TEBOW |
| Guest5744 |
Posted - 01/17/2012 : 12:15:07
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5744
i came up with my personal criteria for overrated and it consists of two things:
- good statistics during the season
- not making the playoffs or choking in the playoffs consistently
new list:
- ovechkin
- joe thornton
- luongo
- sedins
- kovalchuk
- i would add vokoun, nabokov, and dipietro to the list.
to be honest who can put up a solid arguement against rick dipietro being the most overrated player in the nhl???
drafted 1st overall, huge contract, always injured, not good when healthy
- alfredsson
- heatley
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| Guest5744 |
Posted - 01/17/2012 : 12:12:07
i came up with my personal criteria for overrated and it consists of two things:
- good statistics during the season
- not making the playoffs or choking in the playoffs consistently
new list:
- ovechkin
- joe thornton
- luongo
- sedins
- kovalchuk
- alfredsson
- heatley |
| Leafs81 |
Posted - 01/17/2012 : 11:24:18
We shouldn't confuse overrated to overpaid or struggling. I had this discussion with some of my friends and they were all telling me names of players that were either overpaid (Gomez) or struggling (Ovechkin, even Miller)
I think to say if a player is really overrated, the player should be having a good season and it's still not what the fans or pundits expects of him. To me a player like Gaborik is overrated because his best seasons were 40 goals - 80 points, and while most people expect him to be in the top five around the 50 goals and 100 points.
Semin and Phaneuf were overrated at some point but now that they are / were struggling their value went down and they are not rated has high, so no they are not overrated.
Ovechkin has way too much talent to be overrated period.
A player that is having a career year and is still not meeting the expectations is overrated in my book. |
| Guest4306 |
Posted - 01/17/2012 : 09:02:32
This is an interesting list, especially considering that 161 active NHL players provided their input.
I agree with the posters who commented that pay should have nothing to with a player being overrated or not.
But everyone determines their own criteria, and whether you agree or disagree, I bet a.number of the NHLers who responded to the poll considered a player's pay as much as a player's play in providing their input.
How else can you explain some of the names which appear on this list?
Regardless of the criteria, I don't understand how Iginla appears on this list? I wonder how many of the 161 respondents listed him as the most overrated?
Lastly, I wonder about the exact wording used in the poll? Was it simply "which NHL player is the most overrated?" And when did this poll take place? I know it was "just released." but using Iginla as an example, he started the season slowly (as he usually does), so a player's input might simply reflect his opinion at the time the poll was taken. |
| Guest5744 |
Posted - 01/16/2012 : 07:45:47
2) Ovechkin > is that a joke?
3) Gomez > deserves to be on the list
8) Boumeester > " "
10) Komisarek > " "
11) Pronger > deserves to be on list of douchebags not overrated
12) Iginla > cant believe he is on here 500 goals....
13) Semin > all he has is a good shot .... another lazy russian that will be in the KHL in the next 5 yrs
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| n/a |
Posted - 01/16/2012 : 07:19:01
Honestly, of the entire list, I only think that perhaps Pronger could be there, and Semin perhaps.
It's full of players that were once A list and have now aged, and this leads to LOWERED expectations (cue SNL skit soundtrack) folks - so at this point, you simply could not have such high expectations for guys like Heater, Lecavalier, and Jokinen. Phaneuf still is considered a Norris candidate? I don't think so . . . maybe for the first two months of this season he was "back in the picture", but again, his expectations have been lowered fr the past three, 4 seasons. As a Leafs fan, quite frankly, he is exactly where I want him and expect him to be at this point, maybe even a bit above it.
As an old guy, I might keep Pronger on the list as a guy who is still considered such a key ingredient to a cup win for Philly, when really, I think he has become somewhat irrevelant for that at this stage of his career. Semin has great numbers but seems like a cancer for the team with his lazy work ethic, and it is really showing this year. It could be argued though that we all know this, so eve that is a stretch to say he is overrated - no one is putting him above players who score slightly less statistically but are worlds better as a team player and for team defence.
My number 1 most overrated?
Joe Thornton.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Guest4830 |
Posted - 01/16/2012 : 07:07:38
DEFINITLY I THINK ON THAT LIST THE MOST OVERATED FOR WHAT THE DEVILS ARE PAYING HIM IS KOVALCHUK. HE SHOULD HAVE JUST STAYED WHERE HE WAS AT. THE BEST PLAYER ON THAT TEAM IS PARISE,HE SHOULD BE GETTING THE HUGE CONTRACT. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/16/2012 : 06:39:10
OK, so let's talk about Heatley for a second. Is it that he is over-rated or that he does not meet his potential based on work ethic?? Those are two very different things.
I would suggest that most pundits will say that Heatley is no longer the top 5-10 goal scorer in the NHL. 4-5 years ago he was putting up will put up 40+ goals and 80+ points. He has not scored less than 39 goals since the 2003 season, so does that one off season make him "over-rated?"
Grantly, Heatley is not the player he once was. He is not playing with Alfredsson in his prime and Spezza nor Thornton and Marleau. Is he ever going to be a 40 goal guy again?? I doubt it, but is that the expectation??
Finally, something is said with International competitions. Heatley has played on literally every important International Competition for the past decade. Every single one. That means every hockey mind that matters in the best hockey nation in the world says this guys in one of the 13 best forwards and 23 best players in the country.
Is that over-rated??? |
| Guest2978 |
Posted - 01/16/2012 : 00:14:37
Heatley... Just because if you watch this guy LIVE, game in and game out, I think alot of hockey observers might be shocked to see just how little effort and passion he puts into alot of shifts night in and night out.
Alot of nights he plays the game like he has a hot date afterwards and doesnt want to risk breaking a bone (never mind a sweat).
Boy does he love the power play though...
Suffers a bit from Penner disease in that when he WANTS to play can be very good. Though they would never admit it I have often wondered what his team mates that leave it all on the ice and would block a shot with their tongue think of him at times.
Oh well, who are we anyways... No matter what fans think they still drive home in their Lexus's, Escalades, etc etc back to their (I'm sure) very conservative, small, and tough to pay for, homes. Plus, they will be winning the lottery again next year so... But I do think our intentions are good.
Doesn't anyone out their but my dumbass just wish that you would see some heart and passion out of ALL players that are fortunate to be playing a game for a living?? I don't know, maybe it's just me.
In my opinion, a team made up of Ryan Jones's, Jordan Tootoo's, Curtis Glencross's, etc etc (heart guys) wouild mop the floor in a 7 game series with a team of Heatleys, Penners, etc... Unless of course the Heatley/Penners etc etc decided they WANTED to play... Even then I'm not sure... :) |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/15/2012 : 22:32:45
quote:
Originally posted by Guest7692
Time for some name dropping: Toews, Kesler, Datayuk. These are some guys who put up p/g numbers at LEAST who play equally important roles on defence. And yes they are better than Alexander Ovechkin at playing hockey. Yes, because, although the media leaves it out of the equation (because it's not marketable obviously) Defence is just as important in this game than Offence. Ovechkin, I am sorry doesnt really play hockey - he just scores.
Again Im not saying that he isnt an elite player. He's just undeserving of all the rave that is made of him considering his one dimensional play. This is why he is over rated.
Time for some stat reading: None of Toews, Kesler or Datsyuk is a p/g player over their careers. Ovechkin averages 1.25 ppg over his career so far, which is a pretty staggering figure. Datsyuk has had 4 seasons where he finished over PPG, Toews and Kesler have had none. OV has yet to finish a season where he is less than ppg
That is some pretty significant scoring - and last time I checked, scoring was still a pretty important part of the game. As for defense.... well, I don't think that anyone is ever going to confuse OV with a Selke trophy nominee. But he is +80 over his career and has only 1 year where he finished as a minus. Thats hardly a defensive liability - esp compared to fellow scorers Dany Heatley who is only +6 over his career, and Kovalchuk, who is a whopping -110!
Lets not kid ourselves, Ovechkin is a pretty impressive hockey player. |
| sahis34 |
Posted - 01/15/2012 : 20:02:45
If you rate players as overrated, how does that make them overrated?Overrated just means that you have a view of the player lower than what you think the he is perceived by others. The arbitrary quality of a player is personal, polling these results is pointless. |
| Guest7692 |
Posted - 01/15/2012 : 18:02:11
Like most of you I have my differences with this, but my main concern is the #2 spot. Alexander Ovechkin is the most over rated player in the NHL and should be one spot ahead.
Now I can imagine your outrage in reading this, but I am not saying that Ovechkin is anything short of exceptional. He is undoubtedbly a great player, but a one dimensional one who is constantly in the talks of Best Player in the league/world. He is being compared to players who chip in offensively as well as fill in roles in other ways whether it's defence or even leadership, which are two qualities that Ovechkin greatly lacks.
Time for some name dropping: Toews, Kesler, Datayuk. These are some guys who put up p/g numbers at LEAST who play equally important roles on defence. And yes they are better than Alexander Ovechkin at playing hockey. Yes, because, although the media leaves it out of the equation (because it's not marketable obviously) Defence is just as important in this game than Offence. Ovechkin, I am sorry doesnt really play hockey - he just scores.
Again Im not saying that he isnt an elite player. He's just undeserving of all the rave that is made of him considering his one dimensional play. This is why he is over rated.
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| Guest4830 |
Posted - 01/15/2012 : 07:54:45
if i had to take a guess of the most underrated hockey player it would be( nathan horton ) |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/13/2012 : 17:16:58
quote:
Originally posted by Guest7116
With salary involved seeing dipetro done for another season is very dissapointing since he has the tools to be an elite goaltender in the league. I know its not really overrated in the sense that nobody expected him to be spectacular the past few years, but for the contract he signed, everyone must have thought he would have accomplished much more
He got a contract that pays him 4M a year for 15 years, no matter what he does or how many games he plays. Thats a pretty good accomplishment  . That contract will probably be looked at for decades to come as an unmitigated disaster. |
| Guest7116 |
Posted - 01/13/2012 : 16:33:00
With salary involved seeing dipetro done for another season is very dissapointing since he has the tools to be an elite goaltender in the league. I know its not really overrated in the sense that nobody expected him to be spectacular the past few years, but for the contract he signed, everyone must have thought he would have accomplished much more |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/13/2012 : 12:30:03
I absolutely agree guest, ratings are completely subjective. The interesting thing behind this poll is that these are the opinions of a number of NHL players. I would think their opinions are based on something far different than the fans or media.
One can always pick players here or there that might belong on the list or should be removed. The most interesting part of this poll is who is #1. I believe this is the 3rd or perhaps 4th consecutive year that the NHL players rated Dion Phaneuf as the most over-rated player in the NHL. Luongo is also historically in the top 5-10.
To me, Ovechkin on the list is shocking based on him winning the Pearson (Lindsay) just a few years ago. Also, a players as highly respected as Iginla is a surprise to be on the list as well. |
| mandree888 |
Posted - 01/13/2012 : 09:01:21
100% agree with beans a players salary has nothing to do with how he is rated. salary is ONLY how much the team wants that player for his style of play. They pay for what that player brings to the team for for the output on the score sheet. |
| Guest5052 |
Posted - 01/13/2012 : 08:37:43
I get the point about seeking to separate salary from both a player's performance and how they are rated, but dont think you can completely ignore a players salary.
Two reasons: one, that in the cap era a players value to the team is dependent on their salary.
two, it is some form of measure of a players worth, i.e. a GM rating of their perceived contribution to the team.
That being said, I agree that Gomez is no longer overrated, because to my mind he isnt rated very highly.
A guy like Ryan Kesler is an interesting example. He is an excellent hockey player, most would agree with that. But is he overrated? There are comments in the media that he is the best Canuck and is the straw that stirs that teams drink. Someone above said he was top 15 in the league. To me thats overrating him (although I do respect that thats just my opinion).
Phaneuf was overrated but after a few poor years, I dont see him rated as highly anymore and hes definitely playing better this year, so dont think he's too overrated.
I d suggest that Getzlaf was a little overrated. I know its just one poor year, and I was a big fan before (so maybe i was guilty of rating him too highly) but he hasnt dominated the league like I expected him to do.
Admittedly how a player is "rated" is in and of itself subjective but entertaining.
Those are my thoughs.
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| Guest4614 |
Posted - 01/13/2012 : 00:32:18
Players who do not deserve to be on this list:
Ovechkin, Luongo, Lecavalier, Kesler, Pronger, Iginla
Players who instead should be on the top 15 BEST list:
Ryan Kesler... |
| Guest9818 |
Posted - 01/12/2012 : 12:39:44
Yeah, I'm not sure how Gomez is overrated. When is he ever in a conversation for an award or for an expected huge year offensively, or even a solid year defensively prior to the beginning of the year? No one goes into the season saying man that Gomez is gonna light it up this year. I'm sure he's also rarely if ever picked in your respective hockey pools. This implies he's not considered at all, therefore he's not likely to play below expectations and hence be overrated in respect to an initial assesment of his ability. |
| Guest7961 |
Posted - 01/12/2012 : 11:43:07
heatly bum puck hog afraid of corners bum |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/12/2012 : 10:36:58
Money is irrelevant when discussion how accurately a player is rated.
Let's try this a different way.
Claude Giroux and Phil Kessel are very similar in performance this season. Both are very close with points, both are similar in age and sise, and both are very important players to their team. I would rate them very close to each other.
Does Claude Giroux automatically become a better player or rated higher than Kessel because he is paid about 1/2 of what Kessel gets??
It is not who is or who is not overpaid. Money has nothing to do with it. |
| Guest3786 |
Posted - 01/12/2012 : 10:13:58
Hockey is a business and I believe money has a lot to do with it. In fact, it's all about money because of the salary cap. Some teams won the Stanley Cup with a mix of veterans and young stars underpaid because they're on their first NHL contract. I agree with Gomez being the most overrated. His 7.5 cap hit is just not worth it.
You guys saw Moneyball? I enjoyed a lot that movie and I wonder if the main ideas of that movie can be applied to the NHL. |
| Guest2978 |
Posted - 01/12/2012 : 09:10:59
Heatley... Period... |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/12/2012 : 08:40:06
As I said, because money has nothing to do with it. Has Gomez regressed through his career?? Sure. Last season. He's not a young players anymore. He's 32 yrs old with over 1000 career games (reg season and playoffs combined). His best point production was 84 pts which he did only once. On average, he is a 60 pt player.
Surprise surprise, in 2 of his 3 seasons with Montreal he had 58 and 59 pts respectively. Gomez is not advertised to be anything more than what he is. If you want to say he is overpaid, most would not argue. However, overpaid does not mean overrated.
To contrast this, I completed agree that Dion Phaneuf is over rated. He has been touted through most of his career as a Norris worthy, elite level defensemen. What could be further from the truth?? Dion Phaneuf can shoot the puck, he can hit, and he has great foot-speed for a guy his size. What Dion Phaneuf doesn't do well is play defense. He often lets his man beat him to the front of the net, he is often out of position to begin with, he doesn't use his size well defensively and will not win many puck battles in the corners, and he often gives up odd man rushes by attempting open ice hits in the neutral zone.
That is not Norris worthy (which is how he is touted) and that makes him over rated. Not saying good or bad, but not as good as he is made out to be. |
| Guest4350 |
Posted - 01/12/2012 : 08:17:09
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6366
Most over rated and over paid has to be Bouwmeester, he makes 6 million a season and and has amassed a total of 19 goals in 3 seasons with the flames. Plus he is a huge defencive libility. if anyone from Calgary needs to moved besides Sutter it's him.
That's still better than Scott Gomez. Don't forget Gomez gets 7.5M per year, even more than JBo. Also Gomez is on offence not defence. Yikes. How Gomez isn't #1 over rated still baffles me. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/12/2012 : 08:16:36
First off, I think that general fans associate contract value with performance.What I mean by that is that if a player gets a raise, some fans seem to think that the player immediate improves.
As far as the list goes, here are the names I believe belong on the list:
Phaneuf, Boumeester, Komisarek, Jovanovski
The names that do not belong on the list:
Ovechkin, Heatley, Luongo, Kovalchuk, Lecavalier, Pronger, Iginla.
The rest of the names, I am indifferent on. |
| Guest6366 |
Posted - 01/12/2012 : 08:05:05
Most over rated and over paid has to be Bouwmeester, he makes 6 million a season and and has amassed a total of 19 goals in 3 seasons with the flames. Plus he is a huge defencive libility. if anyone from Calgary needs to moved besides Sutter it's him. |
| Guest7752 |
Posted - 01/12/2012 : 07:42:56
I don't think these guys belong there:
#2 - no further comment on that one
#4 - his numbers and awards speak for themselves
#6 - he just is "under-motivated" sometimes
#12 - no further comment on that one
Most overrated for the past 2 seasons has got to be Gomez.
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