| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 07/03/2015 : 13:50:17
So as to avoid going way off topic, I thought I'd start a thread for the Kessel deal after Duke's comments in the "Most improved team...." thread.
Duke, I fully agree with your comments. Shanny/Dubas were in a serious bind when it came to dealing Kessel. It was very similar to the situation Benning had with the Canucks in regards to a couple of deals he's been criticized for, Kesler being the big one. When a player has the right to give a list of teams, it lessens the value of the asset. When only one team has interest (Ana for Kesler / Pitt for Kessel), the value of the asset plummets!
Leaf fans can cry about it all they want, yet the only other option he had, was to keep him. Even if the value wasn't there in the return, the Leafs had to decide if it was better to cut their losses and deal him for the best possible return they could get. They chose to do so and I have no problem with it. I guess they could have hung onto him until the TDL but at that point, they'd still be gambling that more than one of the teams on Phil's list would be interested and have the assets, AND cap space, to make a better deal?
The two prospects TO gave up (Biggs and Erixon) are less than appealing and will not likely be close to impact players, if they can even find their way into the NHL as a regular. I've heard mixed reviews on Kapanen but have not followed him at all and Harrington, while not projected to be the next Scott Niedermeyer, could very well end up being a good top 4 dman. Spaling is a depth C and will help the Leafs bottom 6 I'm sure.
Bottom line, the Leafs did as good as they could. When you don't have more than a couple of teams interested, you're hands are tied. It's part of the reason high profile players like Kessel are not often moved. I have no doubt Phil will light it up in Pittsburgh and you'll never hear the end of it as a Leaf fan, but imo, that's not fair. They did the best they could at this point. I will however continue to insist that the Leafs lost the original deal (Seguin) for Phil.  |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| ryan93 |
Posted - 06/26/2016 : 16:37:27
Stamkos is a great player, but no way I would give him $12 million per. That's asking for trouble down the road. Also, only TB can offer him 8 years (and only until July 1). Buffalo and others can only go a max of 7 years. Unless TB does a sign and trade. |
| The_Gipper |
Posted - 06/23/2016 : 11:10:03
hearing lots of rumblings that if Stamkos does make it to UFA, Buffalo is prepared to throw a pile of money at him. hearing rumours of upwards of $12M a season for 8 years. yowsah!
if I'm Toronto I'm not sure I go that high. that's a HUGE cap hit for a very long time.
as each day goes by it gets more and more interesting. July 1 is just around the corner....
|
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/22/2016 : 19:45:03
Theres one important point thats not being mentioned either regarding the kessel trade....because kessels contract is unloaded......the leafs can......
******* BRING ON STAMKOS *******please let it be lol |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/22/2016 : 19:39:58
yes Gipper , i think it was well worth it also.
i was hoping for the leafs to use that pick to obtain a goalie....and they did, but not at the draft. lol
i think this was a great move, instead of drafting a goalie and hoping for the best, they receive a goalie who has proven he has great potential and of course he is ready to play right now.
The leafs had to do this in my opinion because they havent 1 goalie ( who ive seen anyway ) who is ready for NHL play nor has shown he will be the next leaf fixture in net . |
| The_Gipper |
Posted - 06/21/2016 : 10:10:40
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Yes nuxfan , who would have thought. 
No-one ever questioned kessels ability to put up points, he did that in Toronto. It was just all other aspects of his game. Guess he got interested in playing real hockey when the stanley cup was in reach.
Doesnt hurt playing behind Crosby and Malkin either. Kinda shifts the focus off him for sure.
All in the past anyway, leafs got a very, very bright future. Just another year or two. Bring on Matthews and Stamkos.
PS....M.A.Fleury will soon be wearing a maple leaf, bethca....
not quite Duke, but close........we'll take Andersen instead. 
Leafs used the pick they acquired from PIT in the Kessel deal to trade for Frederick Andersen. bit of a gamble I suppose, but worth it IMO. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/14/2016 : 17:03:15
Yes nuxfan , who would have thought.
No-one ever questioned kessels ability to put up points, he did that in Toronto. It was just all other aspects of his game. Guess he got interested in playing real hockey when the stanley cup was in reach.
Doesnt hurt playing behind Crosby and Malkin either. Kinda shifts the focus off him for sure.
All in the past anyway, leafs got a very, very bright future. Just another year or two. Bring on Matthews and Stamkos.
PS....M.A.Fleury will soon be wearing a maple leaf, bethca....
|
| nuxfan |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 12:38:18
What a year for Kessel... from being run out of TOR to winning the cup (and nearly winning the conn smythe along the way) in a mere 12 months.
I guess he's not so bad after all |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/12/2015 : 22:40:07
Ach, can't believe I wrote Atlanta instead of Columbus, my bad. Blame it on the summer.
Anyways, you guys got the point I hope - real value is shown when the player is available, and truthfully, once you get to star status like Kessel and Nash, the little things like no-trade clauses, limited NTC's, etc aren't much of a deterrent to teams giving offers.
Anyways . . . we're turning over a new Leaf!
(see what I did there?)
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 08/12/2015 : 10:13:18
Thanks Alex for saving me the time to look up the Nash trade. I think at the time of the Nash trade his contract was very cap friendly and I also believe he had a no trade clause. There were more teams with cap room and interest in Nash, at the time if you believe the rumours and he was considered the heart and soul of the team in Columbus. One could argue Columbus won that trade as they went on a climb to the next rung of the NHL, top - 10 to the middle 10 team currently in the NHL vs the historically lower 10 finishes the team was consistently doing prior to this trade. Not the Rangers lost the trade, as they also took the next step being "almost always" in the President trophy race and consistently in the later rounds in the playoffs. Just don't know if Nash is due all the credit for this.
I don't think the Kessel trade is going to elevate Toronto the same way, Columbus was elevated, but every other aspect of this trade is similar. Toronto gets decent draft picks and prospects, cap space, while giving up the player who was the driving factor in offense for the Leafs, and I believe they play with a similar skill set. Pittsburgh gets him at an appropriate cap space based on his abilities, but the only big difference is, unlike the Rangers, Pittsburgh is not awash in depth players, so the loss of the propect's and picks hurts them more. I believe at the end of the year time will tell if this was a smart more or major blunder for Pittsburgh. If this move doesn't work out, Malkin and Kessel might end up as trade deadline move candidates and Pittsburgh might be the one in rebuild mode. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 08/11/2015 : 23:15:38
quote:
Here's another point to drive home Kessel's true worth, as determined by all GM personnel in the league:
Rick Nash, the player who Kessel was most often compared to in terms of real worth - remember how many teams chased after him when he wanted out of Atlanta?
Facts are facts.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
1. When did the "real worth" comparison for Kessel become Rick Nash? Except for the fact that both are male and both are NHL hockey players, they seemingly have very little in common. How do you compare them?
2. I think you mean CBJ, Nash never played in Atlanta. As for the return CBJ got for Nash:
- Dubinsky: avg .75 PPG during his time with CBJ, recently signed to a 6yr/35M extension
- Anisimov: nearly .5 PPG, recently parlayed into Brandon Saad in deal with CHI
- Tim Erixon: plugger, traded to CHI shortly afterwards
- 2013 first round draft pick (used to pick Alex Wennberg, yet to crack NHL)
I'd say they did pretty well overall. There was not a lot of talk about other teams chasing Nash at the time, there were very few teams that could accomodate his deal and it seemed that NYR was the only place he wanted to go...
If you're going to compare the Nash deal vs the Kessel deal, I'd say that CBJ got better return for Nash than TOR did for Kessel as of today, at least in terms of proven NHL players. It remains to be seen if the prospects and draft picks that TOR got pan out in the coming years. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/11/2015 : 19:28:24
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Alex, to further slozo's point ....
If Ryan Getzlaf submitted a 8 team list to ANA for trade purposes, do you think that only ONE team would have interest ??
Point being the player available means more than that players salary, teams WILL find a way if they are REALLY interested in that player
Pittsburg is grasping at straws trying to stay atop the leagues elite....poor management has led them to not holding onto their non- core but important players .... Pitts should have traded Malkin 2 years ago and reaped the youthful rewards, therefore still keeping a strong team and rebuilding youth at the same time
Wow...what a summer indeed! I actually agree with all your points, Duke!
(Am...I...in some kind of alternate universe?!)
Here's another point to drive home Kessel's true worth, as determined by all GM personnel in the league:
Rick Nash, the player who Kessel was most often compared to in terms of real worth - remember how many teams chased after him when he wanted out of Atlanta?
Facts are facts.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
I actually dont recall Nash ever playing for Atlanta so no, i don't recall the interest back then?
As for my comments, i wasn't defending Kessel and agreeing that he's on par or even close to Ovechkin, but just wanted to point out the fact that his list absolutely affected his return. No different than the Canucks dealing Kesler. Pretty much fact.
Regardless, i don't recall the exact return on Nash but don't think it was exactly overwhelming? Was it really all that much more than Kessel fetched? Considering the interest you spoke of, shouldn't Nash have fetched enough that I'd remember some quality going back the other way? |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/11/2015 : 19:12:55
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Alex, to further slozo's point ....
If Ryan Getzlaf submitted a 8 team list to ANA for trade purposes, do you think that only ONE team would have interest ??
Point being the player available means more than that players salary, teams WILL find a way if they are REALLY interested in that player
Pittsburg is grasping at straws trying to stay atop the leagues elite....poor management has led them to not holding onto their non- core but important players .... Pitts should have traded Malkin 2 years ago and reaped the youthful rewards, therefore still keeping a strong team and rebuilding youth at the same time
Wow...what a summer indeed! I actually agree with all your points, Duke!
(Am...I...in some kind of alternate universe?!)
Here's another point to drive home Kessel's true worth, as determined by all GM personnel in the league:
Rick Nash, the player who Kessel was most often compared to in terms of real worth - remember how many teams chased after him when he wanted out of Atlanta Columbus?
Facts are facts.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
| The Duke |
Posted - 08/11/2015 : 08:02:30
Alex, to further slozo's point ....
If Ryan Getzlaf submitted a 8 team list to ANA for trade purposes, do you think that only ONE team would have interest ??
Point being the player available means more than that players salary, teams WILL find a way if they are REALLY interested in that player
Pittsburg is grasping at straws trying to stay atop the leagues elite....poor management has led them to not holding onto their non- core but important players .... Pitts should have traded Malkin 2 years ago and reaped the youthful rewards, therefore still keeping a strong team and rebuilding youth at the same time |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 15:41:15
Slozo...in fairness, his worth, and any player's for that matter, is also affected by affordability in the market. Add in the fact that Kessel, if I recall correctly, was able to supply a list of just 8 teams he'd agree to be moved to! This obviously impacts the return immediately unless of course there are multiple teams interested and at Kessel's price, there just wasn't. |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/06/2015 : 21:37:24
Wow, been a long summer.
It must have been long . . . because suddenly, Kessel is somehow on par with Ovechkin, and they have a similar game. Now THAT is some serious medicine someone is smoking to go to THAT comparison! What can one even say? People who make comparisons of such ridiculous nature should be ignored . . . or at least ridiculed . . . not actually answered, as if it's some kind of minor reach. Cripes, what happened here?!?
Kessel trade:
Glad. Excited. Relieved.
My feelings and guesses on his actual value were pretty much confirmed with the Pittsburgh trade. The fact that only one serious offer was eventually made says it all in terms of Kessel's worth . . . his production is about in the 8mil ballpark range, with maybe a bit longish term. And yet, instead of teams fighting with each other over a rare, very available superstar . . . they get a couple of lowball offers, and one serious one, and that was Pitsburgh. Yep, that sums it up.
No crying from this Leaf fan. Not even a salute.
Don't let the door hit you on the butt as you walk out Phil!
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 08/04/2015 : 12:06:24
I am with Duke here. This is the same team that only clinched a playoff spot in the final few days of the regular season. I know that they lost to the Stanely cup finalist, but it was a pretty convincing 5 game win. For what they lost versus what they picked up in the off season, Dukes right. Crosby could be one hit away from being out long term and Malkin is a player that shows up sporadically. Some times he is one of the best in the game other times he is invisible. Now if Pittsburgh solved there defensive problems and backup goalie problems, id be more hopefully of them being a stanely cup contender |
| umteman |
Posted - 08/04/2015 : 10:59:07
Granted this Penguins team is not likely to win the President's trophy but they are a legitimate Stanley Cup contender which the Leafs were not. That difference should inspire Kessel.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| The Duke |
Posted - 08/04/2015 : 07:58:05
Umteman .... I agree the change should make kessel work harder ( time will tell ) , he will score, he scored in Boston and he scored in Toronto .
As for Pittsburg being among the cup favorites , maybe they are a contender I guess , but I certainly wouldn't pick them to win the cup. I would put 7-8 teams easily ahead of Pittsburg right now to win the next cup , because of various reasons
... 1 ) crosbys health 2 ) which Malkin will show up 3 ) Letangs health 4 ) fleurys play , remember that flyers series a couple seasons back 5 ) their defense ....... Many teams are strong in all of the above
|
| umteman |
Posted - 08/02/2015 : 05:22:14
"Kessel can score but is a lazy ass with no game involvement"
I really think that playing in an environment were there is a real shot at a cup along with playing with the likes of Crosby & Malkin may be just what it will take to light a fire under him.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| The Duke |
Posted - 08/01/2015 : 12:07:43
Personally I don't see Pittsburg having a great season. I see them roughly in the same place as this season. Kessel can score but is a lazy ass with no game involvement ... If anything he will eventually piss Crosby off .... Crosby is one head shot away from leaving hockey.... Malkin seems uninterested 90 % of the time...Letang ( same boat as Crosby ) ..... Fluery, jeckyl and Hyde ..... They MISSSSS Orpik more than they thought.... Pitts is heading down hill in my opinion
|
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 07/24/2015 : 10:02:46
Beans I like you and I know you know how to debate. Forget just for a second how bad last years post xmas run was and try to remember what Toronto's strengths were (offense). If you are arguing that Washington vs Toronto is a better team because of team defense, goaltending and gaa, I wholeheartedly give you the win, but offense wise Toronto has depth in forward and defense and was less of a one trick pony than Washington is was.
You gave me one player who hasn't played for years in Washington since 2012 (Semin), whos best season was in 2010 and whos career numbers are no better than Lupul, another who's best years are a few seasons behind him Green, whos had 3 years points of 45 - 38 - 26, but included a point per game player in Backstrom 78 - 79 - 48. Past Backstorm/Ovechkin there isn't/hasn't been a whole lot of offensive talented players.
Here are the players you threw in from Toronto Lupul 21 - 44 - 18 but is injury prone and only played in like 50% of his games, Bozak 49 - 49 - 28 and Phaneuf 29 - 31 - 28. Your didn't include Franson, Gardiner, JVR, Kadri. Toronto has had a host of other offensive talented players, who all have had impressive stats the last 3 years.
Now clearly Backstrom is better statistically than any other player on the Leafs, some due to being paired with a generational talent in Ovechkin, but the Leafs have been one of the better teams in the last 3 years at balanced scoring. The only really clear difference in offence is the generational talent in Ovechkin, who is head and tails better than any other player in this conversation. The reason you go back 6 years for your argument in Kessel vs Ovechkin is it shows his numbers higher compared to his peers. If you only go back the last 3 years he is much further down the goal scoring depth chart. Go back 2 years same thing, go back one year further down again.
Point I am making is Kessel is sliding away from being a top goal scorer in the league, but has actually had offensive support on his team. Now if you are arguing it can only get better being paired with Malkin or Crosby no argument there, but imagine Crosby paired with Ovechkin for the same number cap hit. Huge difference. There is nobody on this site that thinks they would be comparable at the same cap hit, paired with Crosby. If this happened you might actually see a 60+ goal scorer and a potential 150 point season from either or both. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 07/23/2015 : 18:57:46
So, as I said, media driven. Here is a belcher report story that lists the NHL's 10 laziest players. Who's on that list? Ovechkin. Who is no on that list? Kessel. As I said, media driven. Because you found one player who went on record means about as much to this argument as a bag of pucks.
It's not hard to argue that Kessel, along with every other Leaf player, had a terrible season last year. However, no one can argue that Kessel has been the 2nd highest goal scoring player in the past 6 seasons. #1 was Ovechkin. But Ovechkin did that on one of the higest scoring teams with players like Backstrom, Semin(when he was scoring), and Green. Kessel played with Lupul ,Bozak, and Phaneuf.
All due respect, if you can't see a difference in the quality of players than nothing I can say will change that. Ovechkin with TO is likely scores less and Kessel with Washington probably scores more. Ovechkin is a generational goal scorer but Kessel is #2 in that generation. Still, my point has been that Ovechkin is a god and Kessel is a goat and they are, all things considered, not that far apart.
|
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 07/23/2015 : 16:42:24
Further to that point is the goal differential without Kessel and Ovechkin's goals counted in 2014-15. Toronto had 211 goals less Kessels 25 = 186, while Washington had 242 less Ovechkins 53 = 189. Can anyone say truly that Toronto didn't tank post xmas and that they would not have picked up a few more goals to eclipse that 3 goal differential, but just in case you think a 1.5% goal differential is huge enough to consider the offense to be drastically better in Washington, I won't continue to try and change your mind |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 07/23/2015 : 16:22:23
http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/nhl/playing-with-phil-kessel-was-frustrating-at-times-says-former-toronto-maple-leafs-teammate
I am not making up the former teammates comments against Kessel. The first article I found was Colby Armstrong talking about playing with the very talented Kessel, but being frustrated by his lack of effort on everything not Goal scoring. In that Kessel is a goalscorer there is no doubt. But a floating goalscorer would more accurately describe him.
Last year he was 24th in goal scoring with 25 , 2013-14 he was 5th in goalscoring, 2012-13 he was 13th. Ovechkin was 1st in all those seasons having scored 53 last year and more than 50 6 times while Kessel has never scored 40 once. Kessel entire 6 year career equals Ovechkins best 3 years.
Hart, Ross, Calder, Richard and Pearson line the trophie case of Ovechkin, while Phil has won the Masterton trophy and some Lady Bing consideration are the only thing lining Kessels trophy case.
One plays with intensity, the other eats with intensity, that where the similarity ends. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 07/23/2015 : 14:31:01
To say that Kessel and Ovechkin had a similar team around them is absurd. Completely absurd. A team that made the playoffs 7 of the last 10 years a made it to the 2nd round 4 times compared to a team that has made the playoffs once?? What a joke.
Heart a soul of the team vs. a cancer in the dressing room?? Ok, I agree that Ovechkin is the heart of the Caps but no one can honestly say that Kessel is a cancer. That's media speculation and what fans want to use as an excuse. I am not saying it's not true but you can't say that it is true either.
Ultimately, on the ice, Kessel does what?? Scores goals (more than anyone not named Ovechkin) and doesn't really play a lot of defense. What does Ovechkin do?? Scores goals (more than anyone) and doesn't really play defense.
No similarities what so ever.
|
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 07/22/2015 : 13:54:55
See I don't see the comparisons between Ovi and Kessel. Ovi is the heart and soul of the team, while Kessel has been called the cancer of the locker room and on the ice by teammates. I know the most vocal about his lack of effort has been by non talented offensive players, but these are also by players that put maximum effort on the ice. I don't hear Ovi's teammates or former teammates coming out saying how its difficult to play with him. Ovi doesn't need Backstrom to succeed, or vice versa, whereas Bozak and Kessel in the past have needed to be paired to be effective. I would compare Kessel more to Semin, than I would to Ovi. Of the 3 all are considered goal scorers, but Ovi is way more talented than the others. Skating, conditioning, effort, physically and leadership wise, Ovi is on another level.
The other thing I don't get is people say Washington is way more talented than Toronto. I don't think the gap is as big without Ovi in the lineup as has been suggested. Sure Holtby has had some good post seasons, but the goaltending in 2013-14 and the beginning of 2014-15 in Toronto was well beyond expectations. Backstrom has put up the points totals, but if you compare the surrounding players forward and defense stats in Toronto for the last 4-5 years, Kessel has had the complimenting players. From x-mas break on last year the whole system just simply fell apart, that's why Toronto seems so much worse than Washington now. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 07/22/2015 : 05:52:53
They do both find a shooting position and wait for someone to pass them the puck and shoot... Ovie is more aggressive but still mostly a floater, but don't grt critized as much because of those very high goal production years
I'm not a big Ovie fan... I like the players who go and dig out the puck, not the ones standing around waiting for it
This is why I said earlier that players like Crosby may get pretty sick of doing kessels work for him, digging out the puck for him, fighting his physical battles for him.... And kessel in the end getting final acolytes for the puck tap in... See what happens after Xmas , before then I'm sure it will be all shiny and new |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 07/21/2015 : 12:41:12
I may be biased as I have always found Ovechkin to be over-rated. That said, I am absolutely not saying that Kessel is as good as Ovechkin. I am only saying they are a very similar type player and, with the exception of a valid argument about physicality, no one has really disagreed. My point is that Ovechkin is praised for his play while Kessel is criticized. In fact, 2010-2013 they were essentially the same player productivity wise.
Again, I am just saying they play a very similar game and, although one may be more productive than the other, it's not so much that one can say that Kessel is a dog and Ovechkin is a god.
|
| Alex116 |
Posted - 07/20/2015 : 16:15:57
Beans....
I'm not trying to argue that OV doesn't have his faults, nor that Kessel won't flourish in Pittsburgh (for that, see my last post!) but I still see OV as a far more impactful player. It will be very interesting to see Kessel with better linemates, because as you pointed out, OV's played with much better ones over the course of his career. Nik Backstrom is a top 10 C in the league, some would say top 5-7. Bozak, well......
However, your points, while true, aren't all that shocking either. To say OV hasn't had a 60G / 100 Pt season in however many years, while true, is sorta misleading. NO ONE's had that kind of year, as the game has obviously changed and become less high scoring. PPG players nowadays are rare "little own" (I love using that  ) 100pt guys!
You did mention the linemates that contributed to his production, but you kind of downplayed the 2 goals per 10 games. 16 goals a season is HUGE in today's game!
As for his aggressive play, I can live with it, but it def could lead to wear and tear on his body and possible injuries so he should prob pick his spots a little more.
Will be very interested to see how Kessel's play changes with Pittsburgh. Will he look a lot more interested? Likely. Will he succeed and hit some career highs? Likely. Will he find success he's not had before? Likely. BUT, in Toronto's defense, the market was thin, he had to go, and they got what they could. Tough to win a deal when you're trading a talent like Kessel. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 07/18/2015 : 07:15:55
Whatever he does in Pittsburg... More power to him, I wish him well, honestly. I had respect for him once, big time, not anymore .. Any1 who can collect severL million a season and lay around like that has no morals nor shame or any respect for the team and plYers around him. Good - bye and good luck .
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| Beans15 |
Posted - 07/17/2015 : 10:50:28
So without turning this into an Ovechkin vs Kessel debate, there are a few things I would like to highlight.
1) Ovechkin hasn't had 60+ goals or 100+ points in a long time. A very long time. In fact, he hasn't achieved either of those feats since before Kessel wore a B on his chest.
2) I completely agree that Ovechkin is a more 'hungry' offensive player, but look at the numbers. The difference between Ovechkin's output and Kessel's output over the past 6 seasons is about 2 goals every 10 games. That works out to be about 16 goals a season and I was, in no way, trying to compare the two from an offensive standpoint. But ask yourself a few questions with this information. Firstly, how much is Ovechkin been benefited based on his linemates compared to Kessel? Had Kessel played in Ovechkin's teams and visa versa would the variance be that larger??
3) I agree that Ovechkin is a more physical player. But he has also missed games due to injuries as well as suspensions. Not saying I think that make Kessel a better player or even a smarter one. All I am saying is that throwing your weight around is not always a sign of an engaged player or a smart player. Just ask Dion Phaneuf...
Finally, the point I was making is that Kessel is a very high end goal scorer who was in an environment I don't think he could have ever succeeded in and I do expect a better performance from him in Pittsburgh.
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| Alex116 |
Posted - 07/16/2015 : 22:19:12
Beans, I think the BIG difference with Kessel and OV is on the offensive end, Kessel is still lazy at times and floats a bit waiting for a guy to set him up or for a tap in. OV, with the puck on his stick, is like he's possessed or something! He is SO hungry to score anytime he has an opportunity and rarely does he give up in the offensive half of the rink. Sure, come centre ice, he goes to float mode to some degree but in that offensive zone, I'm not sure I've ever seen a guy want to score more. If Kessel had the same drive, I think he'd have had a 40+ goal season by now.
FWIW, I think he (Kessel) has a real good shot at 45+ goals and won't be the slightest bit surprised if he snipes 50 when you consider his potential line mates and PP time!
Regardless, TO had to deal him and like the Canucks with Kesler, they were handcuffed by limited options thus a limited return. |
| The_Gipper |
Posted - 07/16/2015 : 10:16:57
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
It's funny that how Kessel play in Toronto is heavily criticize but Ovechkin has played like that for years and was highly rewarded. Don't get me wrong, Ovechkin is a more productive goal scoring floater but he is that none the less. Maybe some could argue that last year Ovechkin started playing more defensively minded but prior to that he was terribly un-engaged defensively.
I think the Leaf fans will also regret this trade because I do see Kessel flourishing in Pittsburgh for two reasons. Firstly, he doesn't have to be the man and secondly, the talent he will be playing with. Kessel was touted by Burke as a player to build a franchise around and that was the huge mistake. Kessel might be one of the best 2nd fiddles in the league but he is not the big tuna. That monkey off his back will help him significantly. More scary is that virtually every player who has every played with Crosby/Malkin has had a minimum 10% improvement in output. Some players, like Kunitz, have had much more. Kessel is a healthy player as proven in the past and with the talent in Pittsburgh, I can see him finally cracking that 40 goal plateau.
Toronto fans will be upset if and when Kessel lights it up but Toronto was simply not the environment for Kessel to flourish. No decent talent and him having to be the top dog was a recipe for disaster.
I'm back to feeling back for Leaf fans. There isn't much to look forward to right now...
agree with most of what you said Beans, but when it came to Ovechkin a couple of things stick out that you didn't mention that make him somewhat different to Kessel:
1) Ovie's never been shy about throwing his weight around. quite often you'd see him layout a guy in the open ice or even along the boards. this is something you'll never see Kessel do. in fact he avoids body checks like the plague. which is probably the biggest reason why he's rarely injured.
2) while Ovie's defensive short coming's have been apparent, its something that's very easy to overlook when your putting up 60+ goal and 100+ pt seasons. Kessel, IMO, has the talent level to put up much better numbers then has, but he simply seems content with going on a point-per-game pace, and it shows with his inconsistent effort from game to game.
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| umteman |
Posted - 07/15/2015 : 23:35:24
Well put Beans. I expect kessel to play on a line with Syd and I expect it to be a very productive line!
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 07/15/2015 : 11:19:55
It's funny that how Kessel play in Toronto is heavily criticize but Ovechkin has played like that for years and was highly rewarded. Don't get me wrong, Ovechkin is a more productive goal scoring floater but he is that none the less. Maybe some could argue that last year Ovechkin started playing more defensively minded but prior to that he was terribly un-engaged defensively.
I think the Leaf fans will also regret this trade because I do see Kessel flourishing in Pittsburgh for two reasons. Firstly, he doesn't have to be the man and secondly, the talent he will be playing with. Kessel was touted by Burke as a player to build a franchise around and that was the huge mistake. Kessel might be one of the best 2nd fiddles in the league but he is not the big tuna. That monkey off his back will help him significantly. More scary is that virtually every player who has every played with Crosby/Malkin has had a minimum 10% improvement in output. Some players, like Kunitz, have had much more. Kessel is a healthy player as proven in the past and with the talent in Pittsburgh, I can see him finally cracking that 40 goal plateau.
Toronto fans will be upset if and when Kessel lights it up but Toronto was simply not the environment for Kessel to flourish. No decent talent and him having to be the top dog was a recipe for disaster.
I'm back to feeling back for Leaf fans. There isn't much to look forward to right now...
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| The Duke |
Posted - 07/13/2015 : 12:57:15
Was going to add... Kessel needs a guy to go into the corners , get creamed and feed kessel the puck. Do you think Crosby or Malkin are going to fill this role ??...how long do you think this is going to last before Crosby snaps on him ?? .. With kessels lazy ass attitude... Goin to be interesting |
| The Duke |
Posted - 07/13/2015 : 12:52:52
Joshua , are you sure leaf fans want to see a lazy ass kessel every night ? I used to like kessel and defended him for years, now I'm of a diffrent opinion. If kessel is not putting the puck in the net , what's he doing ??... I'll tell you, floating around the ice doing absolutely ZERO to help the team, it's 5 on 4 for the opposition. Players like kessel make u wonder if they're worth having at all. For every goal he scores, kessel types, usually give up 2 against !!!!!....is this really a help for the team ?? I wonder ??? |
| umteman |
Posted - 07/11/2015 : 09:57:29
I'm all for it! I love the Kessel trade!
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 07/11/2015 : 09:47:15
I know I put it out there like I didn't believe it was gonna happen, but Toronto is in a position that if they don't draft well and develop players in house they are up a creek without a paddle. They have $63 million dollar roster tied up in 13 forwards, 7 defenseman and 1 goalie, the backup, Reimer, signed. Not certain what is happening with Bernier here, but would you sign on into this collection of players only to get shellacked but 85 shots a game and showcased on a crap team for years to come.
Only 10 of those players are signed beyond next season Horton Phaneuf, Gardiner, JVR, Lupul, Bozak, Winnik, Robidas, Hunwick and Komorov. Half of this crowd is either injured or high risk of injury type players or has been subject to trade rumours or has returned to the team after already having been traded from the team.
Only 7 of those signed the year after Horton Phaneuf, Gardiner, JVR, Lupul, Bozak and Komorov
3 beyond that Horton, Phaneuf and Gardiner. The prospect pool is full, but none of those are impact prospects, expected to be anything but fill in players and the team is overall worse than last season. Of the long term signings, im not certain of Horton's status. Is he likely to return? Is he a $6 million dollar player?
I only mention this because I still don't think moving Kessel was the right thing to do. This team was crap last year and not likely to improve this season. This looks like a clear nosdive to make the best of the draft picks Toronto has stock piled. What reason do fans have to show up to watch the crap show this team will be next season? Kessel might have been the only real draw and now they are paying for him to play against them. |
| The_Gipper |
Posted - 07/09/2015 : 06:56:33
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Now what does Toronto do? Develop players?
Yes Josh they will develop players....that's what a re-build is all about. clearing cap space, obtaining prospects and picks....that's what a re-build is all about.
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