| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Senators315 |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 20:37:26
If Lemieux was healthy for his entire career, would he have passed gretzky? would he have had a 200 point season or a 2000 point career? |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alex |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 17:29:59
I heard this incident of Lemieux in his first year playing under a French coach down a goal. The coach calls a timeout and for two minutes gives instructions in French. The other guys say as the ref. blows the whistle 'wait coach what do we do?' and he goes 'don't worry, Mario knows.' Personally, I would have to say he is my favourite, if not one of, hockey players. The only problem is I feel it should go with an asterisk all that he has done. Just imagine had he been healthy...
Habs get number 25 this year |
| Jeremy12 |
Posted - 12/05/2007 : 15:46:06
Lemieux was a beast!
[IMG]http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x49/Jeremy12_24/spezza_sig21.jpg[/IMG] |
| nashvillepreds |
Posted - 11/29/2007 : 14:50:04
Forget, what I said before, I admit to being wrong. I watched a few tapes with Lemieux playing, he was never a wus. But Gretzky wasn't that first guy back for sure.
GO PREDATORS GO |
| nashvillepreds |
Posted - 11/29/2007 : 14:39:31
Beans, I am a huge Gretzky fan but I have to admit he was kind of a cherry picker. He was always the last man back, as you said and did he dig hard in the corners like all the other players, no he didn't.
Did Gretzky work hard, yes he did, I'm not denying that. Gretzky had no grit though.
Lemieux being a wus comment was directed to him after his major injuries. I still stand by my opinion though, Gretzky was better than Lemieux. How much doesn't matter, he was better though.
GO PREDATORS GO |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/29/2007 : 12:11:35
It's really funny how us fans can compare players and talk about how much better one is than the other. When you consider that these two guys (WG and ML) have gone on record countless times talking about how great each other are and how much respect they have for each others games.
Kinds make our arguements a little foolish, no??
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
| willus3 |
Posted - 11/29/2007 : 11:11:18
quote:
Lemieux was a wus, watch some of his games too. Gretzky was better than him bar far.
GO PREDATORS GO
quote:
ABSOLUTELY THE GREATEST CALL EVER....A 6'3 p****, that's what I remember Mario as.
Two of the most foolish posts I've read here.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/29/2007 : 09:39:16
First off all, there have to be many on here feeling like we are flogging a dead horse. Getting a little boring.
However, I just can't help myself to this one.
The perception of Gretzky being a "floater" or "cherry picker" is usually from non Gretzky fans, people without a much knowledge of watching Gretzky, or just a little ignorant in my opinion. Yes, he was normally the last man back into his end due to his propensity to spend time in his office. Also, if he's the last guy coming back and the Oilers forced a turnover in the Neutral Zone and Gretzky happened to get the puck behind the defense, how is that cherry picking?? Thirdly, the Oilers used a system that stretched the other team defensively. If Gretzky was high near the blue line, the other teams defense could not cheat in as much with the fear of sending Gretzky in all alone. Gretzky wasn't the only Oiler Centre to play like this. And lastly, don't forget Gretzky played his entire career in a league with the 2 line pass. It made it quite a bit harder to cherry pick than it is today.
I agree that he did spend a lot of his time high while on defense and was normally one of the last guys coming back from the offensive end. That does not make him a cherry picker. I would insist that you get your hands on some hay day 80's Oilers games and watch only Gretzky(pretty easy to find, he's the best player on the ice). You will see that Gretzky wasn't as bad of a cherry picker as many think.
And one more thing, if there is a player offensively that comes close to WG it's Lemiuex. Looking at what Lemiuex achieved through his career, injuries or not, it's nothing short of spectacular. I would agree that Gretzky is better, but by far?? I can't agree with that.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
| nashvillepreds |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 15:12:11
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5349
imagine if the so called great one ever went into a corner, in his career to dig out a puck, or for that matter came back to his side of center ice.! *scoff* it's fairly easy to get points when you play a soft roll like he did where he was protected like a saint and your coach lets you be a glorified goal suck/ floater the whole game.
Mario is #2 for all time greatest
Bobby Orr is number #1
And wayne maybe finnishes third!
Sigh, watch some of his games. He was a "floter" as I like to call cherry pickers but you have to think the defencemen would smarten up.
You think the Defencemen didn't try and stop him? Obviously they did. He was skilled so he was able to play around them.
Lemieux was a wus, watch some of his games too. Gretzky was better than him bar far.
GO PREDATORS GO |
| Guest5349 |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 15:08:21
imagine if the so called great one ever went into a corner, in his career to dig out a puck, or for that matter came back to his side of center ice.! *scoff* it's fairly easy to get points when you play a soft roll like he did where he was protected like a saint and your coach lets you be a glorified goal suck/ floater the whole game.
Mario is #2 for all time greatest
Bobby Orr is number #1
And wayne maybe finnishes third! |
| I HATE CROSBY |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 14:50:42
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Gretzky played through pain, whereas Mario submitted to it.
That should get somebody angry, but I believe it to be partly true. 
ABSOLUTELY THE GREATEST CALL EVER....A 6'3 p****, that's what I remember Mario as.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
| nashvillepreds |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 14:03:33
I think Gretzky still would've been top 2 maybe even first. Would Bossy and Lemieux have kept up their pace? Wpuld they still hae gotten 130+ points per season?
GO PREDATORS GO |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 10:10:04
I think if all things were considered equal (length of tenure, healthy, yada yada) Bossy and Lemiuex would have been one and two, with Gretzky, Messier, Richard, Howe all in the mix.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
| nashvillepreds |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 10:03:16
You can look at this with a lot of guys. If Maurice Richard was healthy his whole career and played the amount of games guys are playing now, would he have passed Gretzky's goal scoring record?
GO PREDATORS GO |
| PuckNuts |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 08:57:08
Well if Bossy was healthy, and played the length of careers that Lemieux, and Gretzky played, Lemieux would have been trying to break Mike Bossy's goal scoring record, I think he would have had at least 1000+ goals...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
|
| willus3 |
Posted - 11/27/2007 : 19:41:07
Does anyone think Lemieux would not have surpassed Gretzky's goal totals?
If I did the math right at his gpg rate after retiring he ends up with over 1100 goals.
 Wow!!
I've never actually looked at just the goals before, always point total hypotheticals.
I guess it's not that surprising. If there is a way for a guy to score a goal Lemieux is the guy i would bet on to do it.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 11/04/2007 : 19:03:25
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Gretzky played through pain, whereas Mario submitted to it.
That should get somebody angry, but I believe it to be partly true.
Was that the reaction you were looking for?
 Pretty much.
Remember, I only said I partly believed my own statement. I'm a Gretzky guy, but I don't think so little of the Magnificent One to think he didn't play through pain, and do so admirably.
Just trying to keep things lively around here, you know. |
| willus3 |
Posted - 11/04/2007 : 17:39:59
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Gretzky played through pain, whereas Mario submitted to it.
That should get somebody angry, but I believe it to be partly true.
Uh-oh.
Can you imagine the pain caused by carrying a slew of Penguins on your back for years though?
I think you probably are underestimating the extent and pain of Lemieux's health issues.
Were you aware he had a congenital condition called spinal stenosis? It's a narrowing of the spinal canal.
He also had a condition called spondylolysis. Small stress fractures of the vertebrae.
Arthritis.
A herniated disk.
A rare infection in his spine.
3 back surgeries.
And the cherry on the cake, Hodgkins Disease.
The day Lemieux's scoring streak stood at 42 games, Feb. 6, 1990.
"I don't think you'll be able to play tonight" says Burke.
"I remember me and the trainer helping him off the examination table and literally giving him a push on his way. Then he went out against the New York Islanders and scored two goals and three assists - playing at 25%."
-Charles Burke, Penguins team surgeon
"I'm sure people don't realize just what he goes through night after night," said Penguins right wing Rick Tocchet after his team beat Chicago. "I've seen him grimace when he pulls up his pants and heard him groan when he pulls his jersey over his head. He has a doctor, two trainers and two equipment men helping to put him together. Then we see him go out htere and dominate the game the way Michael Jordan dominates basketball. Amazing"
- Rick Tocchet
There are countless quotes like this about Lemieux and the pain he endured while playing.
I don't remember reading too many about Gretzky and the pain he was playing through. And please don't say he just didn't complain about it. Lemieux didn't complain either.
Was that the reaction you were looking for?
It's interesting actually. People often attribute Gretzky's decline to his injury. Mario on the other hand still produced outstanding numbers while playing injured.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 11/04/2007 : 16:52:37
Gretzky played through pain, whereas Mario submitted to it.
That should get somebody angry, but I believe it to be partly true. |
| PuckNuts |
Posted - 11/04/2007 : 09:55:02
From the past...
Mario missed many games, so lets take his point average for each season and multiply that by the games he missed in that season. 709 points.
He missed the 1994-95 season so I will take the P/G the year before and the year after and average them for 1994-95. 96 points.
Then he missed 3 seasons 1997-98 to 1999-00, I will take the P/G the year before and the year after and average them for 1997-98 to 1999-00. 138 * 3 = 414 points.
Mario’s Total Points 1723 + 709 + 96 + 414 = 2942 points in 21 seasons.
Wayne missed some games in his career also, so lets take his point average for each season and multiply that by the games he missed in that season. 164 points.
Wayne’s Total Points 2857 + 164 = 3021 points in 20 seasons.
Conclusion: even if Mario played all the seasons he missed, all the games he missed in each season he would have played 21 seasons, and not amassed enough points to pass Wayne (if he played all the games he missed) who by the way only played 20 seasons…
I think this may better answer your question…
There has been some great discussions in the past here is a link to one of them.
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2143
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
|
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/04/2007 : 09:27:33
Gretzky got hit from behind by Gary Suter in a Canada vs. US game in 91. He also had an uper back injury that kept him out for half the 92-93 season. But he then came back and led the Kings to the Finals.
Some say that he was never really the same after the hit from Suter. I think that's what Mr. Guest is talking about.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
| PainTrain |
Posted - 11/04/2007 : 09:12:20
I though Gretzky was healthy is whole career. Can someone tell me if that's true or not? |
| Guest4011 |
Posted - 11/04/2007 : 06:38:04
Imagine if Gretzky was healthy his whole career, would he have had 1000 career goals or 3000 point career? |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 11/03/2007 : 23:55:45
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2794
Doesn't matter he is still a geezer but Crosby & Lemieux
would average some good points.They would have to,
why would they get paid the big $'s.
In the words of the Geico caveman..."What?" |
| Guest2794 |
Posted - 11/03/2007 : 18:03:02
Doesn't matter he is still a geezer but Crosby & Lemieux
would average some good points.They would have to,
why would they get paid the big $'s. |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 06:29:15
Ah, this old argument again.
In response, all I'll ask is this...if Eric Lindros would have stayed healthy, would he have passed Lemieux?
The question is no more or less pointless. |
| Guest0183 |
Posted - 10/29/2007 : 21:14:31
He definitely would of had a 200 point year (that one year he had 199 points or another year when he had 160 in 60 games).
Also I believe he would have gotten to 2000 points.
Besides that I doubt he would have passed Gretzky's overall point records. |
