| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 13:06:02
Alrighty heres the deal i'm going to post the name and career stats of any plus 30 player in the NHL or any other professional hockey (remember its the hockey hall of fame not the NHL hall of fame) and i would like to maybe incite some debate on weather such player is hall worthy or not i encourage anyone to post a player and his stats but would ask that if there is a good debate going on about another player to wait untill the debate cools down before bringing up another player,, also try and avoid locks for the Hall like example Marty Brodeur, so again the rules are simple and Hockey player who is 30 or over and is still active (not retired)
Bill Guerin
RW
age: 38
NHL seasons: 16
Total NHL games played: 1159
Total NHL Goals : 402
Total NHL assist : 394
Notable awards : 1994-1995: Stanley Cup
1994-1995: Stanley Cup (New Jersey)
2000-2001: NHL - All-Star Game MVP
2000-2001: Played in NHL All-Star
2001-2002: NHL - Second All-Star Team
2001-2002: Olympic Silver Medal
2001-2002: Olympic Silver Medal (2002-USA)
2002-2003: Olympic Silver Medal
2002-2003: Played in NHL All-Star
2003-2004: Played in NHL All-Star
2006-2007: Played in NHL All-Star
Is Big Bill Hall of Fame material or just a good player?
Pasty |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Guest2695 |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 08:28:23
Guerin = no
Brind'amour = should be
Recchi = definitely |
| Guest5382 |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 06:57:47
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
That being said . . . he has never been a top 5 player any year. Except for 2 years, he has always had either a minus or very low plus rating, probably due in part to all his powerplay time, but still . . . I don't know. Maybe it's what Beans said, for the hall: you have to be great, not just good or very good.
What do you mean by top 5? As in point production? The guy won two Selkes. I can't think of any Selke winners being in the top 5 scoring other than Federov. If he won the Selke twice, would that not mean that he is top 5 in something twice? Also top 5 in face off percentage twice which in my opinion is a highly under rated stat.
Based solely on his early career no. Based on his entire career, yes he is in.
Recchi is in also. |
| n/a |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 05:24:28
I wouldn't put Recchi in the "no-doubter" category, but yeah - he's in.
I want to hear more people comment on Brind'amour though, I'm curious to see where everyone else puts him.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| MSC |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 14:19:13
Recchi is a no doubter hall of famer. |
| umteman |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 12:57:51
In my book yes, and I think most will agree. I don't really consider Recchi to be a borderline case.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 10:39:39
What about Mark Recchi?
1991 Stanley Cup Champ
2006 Stanley Cup Champ
REGULAR SEASON
GP G A PTS PIM
1486 542 893 1435 964
PLAYOFFS
GP G A PTS PIM
140 47 70 117 77
1990–91: Played in All-Star Game (NHL)
1991–92: Second All-Star Team (NHL)
1992–93: Played in All-Star Game (NHL)
1993–94: Played in All-Star Game (NHL)
1996–97: Played in All-Star Game (NHL)
1996–97: All-Star Game MVP (NHL)
1997–98: Played in All-Star Game (NHL)
1998–99: Played in All-Star Game (NHL)
1999–00: Played in All-Star Game (NHL)
Second longest span between Stanley Cup wins (1991–2006), at fifteen years.
His 123 points (53 goals, 70 assists) in the 1992–1993 season is the Flyers regular season scoring record.
Oldest player to record 5 assists in a game on March 1, 2009
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| umteman |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 09:04:49
yeah - a tough one, but that is the debate of this thread; not the lead pipe cinches, but the borderline cases.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| n/a |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 07:02:09
Brind'amour - real tough one.
At first, as I wrote this, I said yes: looking past the stats, he gets in with some intangibles: his leadership and play in the stanley cup run with Carolina; his iron man streak that stood for some time; his enduring career that continues on with a Carolina team poised to make some noise in the playoffs. He is one of those guys in the dressing room that everyone respects, and Rod "the Bod" has kept himself in amazing shape to keep playing.
That being said . . . he has never been a top 5 player any year. Except for 2 years, he has always had either a minus or very low plus rating, probably due in part to all his powerplay time, but still . . . I don't know. Maybe it's what Beans said, for the hall: you have to be great, not just good or very good.
So in the end - no. NOW, that is.
But he still plays on, and Carolina is red-hot going into the playoffs, the one team no one probably wants to play in the first round . . . looks like Philly, possibly Jersey. I say here: if Brind'amour plays well, and Carolina goes to at least the second round or farther, and he is an integral part of it (5 goals, 10 assists say) and he plays another year or two to get over 1200 points: I say he gets in by a hair. Another cup as an integral part of the team, he also gets in. Until then - I say no.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| umteman |
Posted - 04/07/2009 : 19:35:45
Ok how about this guy -
Rod Brind'Amour
C
age 38
seasons 20
games played 1401
goals 442
assists 720
points 1162
1990 All Rookie Team
1992 NHL all star game
1996-97 tied for most playoff goals (13)
1998 Olympics (Canada)
2001-02 second in face off % (59.2%)
2003-04 second in face off % (61.1%)
2005-06 Selke Trophy
2005-06 Stanley Cup Ring (Hurricanes)
2006-07 Selke Trophy
Hall or not? |
| deadalive |
Posted - 02/11/2009 : 06:08:23
Not even close. Way too many players of this generation have had so much better careers. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 22:07:40
My mistake on the Cup. I forgot he played with Jersey.
On another account, I would take Weight, Sundin, or Roenick over Guerin any day of the week at any time in their careers. That's not even close in my opinion.
And I think many people have hit it on the head. Good player, yes. Great, borderline. I don't personally think borderline players should get into the Hall. |
| MSC |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 14:59:31
You're correct, you have to draw the line somewhere. Unfortunatly I don't think Guerin can even see the line from where he's sitting. |
| Lunchbox |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 11:11:36
Guerin seems to be one of those guys who was always good, never "great" I think voting him in because he was almost comparable to others in the Hall starts a slippery slope. Guerin gets in because hes almost as "good" as so and so, the next guy gets in because he's almost as "good" as guerin, and eventually youre letting in Alexandre Daigle.
I think Guerin was a good player, always contributed, but just missing that little extra...something. Like a lot of borderline Hall candidates, I guess it comes dowen to the intangables, and I'm just not sold on him.
|
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 10:54:12
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Here are a couple of statistical measures(specifically for offensive forwards which Guerin is) to be considered. This is not written anywhere, but if you look into more Hall of Famers, you will see the same amoungst them.
1000 points(or at least a PPG player if they did not play 1000 games)
500 goals
Stanley Cup
Those three things seem to be very similar in players making the HOF in the past 20ish years. Guerin has none of these things.
Then, one has to look at the other players that would be considered HOF worthy from his era. Guerin played in a league with the likes of Yzerman, Federov, Sakic, Weight, Hull, Modano, Sundin, Roenick etc. I am not saying all of these players are HOF worthy, but definately worth consideration. Guerin is was(is) not as good as any of these guys.
Guerin is a huge stretch to be in the HOF. I would say no.
not being pick or anything just thought i'd mention he does have a stanley cup 94 95 i believe with the devils, i'd also put him in the same class as Weight Sundin and Roenick as players,
Pasty |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 10:40:41
Here are a couple of statistical measures(specifically for offensive forwards which Guerin is) to be considered. This is not written anywhere, but if you look into more Hall of Famers, you will see the same amoungst them.
1000 points(or at least a PPG player if they did not play 1000 games)
500 goals
Stanley Cup
Those three things seem to be very similar in players making the HOF in the past 20ish years. Guerin has none of these things.
Then, one has to look at the other players that would be considered HOF worthy from his era. Guerin played in a league with the likes of Yzerman, Federov, Sakic, Weight, Hull, Modano, Sundin, Roenick etc. I am not saying all of these players are HOF worthy, but definately worth consideration. Guerin is was(is) not as good as any of these guys.
Guerin is a huge stretch to be in the HOF. I would say no.
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| Savitar |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 05:58:58
quote:
Wow!! Comparing Guerin to Langway and Fetisov is completely off kilter, I mean come on, unless you're like 27 and think that you know more about hockey than you actually do, and you're a rose-colored glasses wearing Leaf fan, then..........oh........never mind.
This seriously made me shoot cola out my nose.
fat_elvis_rocked you owe me a new keyboard!
"I call the big one Bitey" |
| n/a |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 05:53:12
Guerin definitely does not make the cut, IMHO.
Someone mentioned Fleury though, and I would vote him in. Great idea btw Pasty, I agree with Willus about just starting a new thread for each player under question.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| CaliforniaSeal |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 20:33:51
Bill Guerin is a good player but not good enough for the hall.
No cup for Dino, what a shame |
| fat_elvis_rocked |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 18:49:35
Wow!! Comparing Guerin to Langway and Fetisov is completely off kilter, I mean come on, unless you're like 27 and think that you know more about hockey than you actually do, and you're a rose-colored glasses wearing Leaf fan, then..........oh........never mind.
 |
| willus3 |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 17:36:27
Pasty. Great idea. I would suggest starting a new thread for each new player though. This one could get quite cumbersome and confusing.
"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan |
| willus3 |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 17:34:37
quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
well the way I see it I think Bill Guerin has had a more successful career than some players that have made the Hall of Fame like Rod Langway and Viacheslav Fetisov. So if these two can make the Hall of Fame then yeah I think Bill Guerin definitely should be in the Hall of Fame some year
Do you have any idea who Langway is? He won 2 Norris trophies in a time where his competition for the award were literally putting up 3 times the points that he was. That's how good he was at playing defence. He was a Hart finalist 3 times and runner up to Gretzky once. He is unquestionably a hall of famer.
Fetisov has already been touched on.
"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan |
| wyntyre |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 17:15:05
Yeah...I don't get how Bill Guerin has had a better career than Fetisov...in fact if you take Fetisov's "professional" (including CSKA play and international, since the old Soviet league was not even close to an 80 game season) he's probably got more points anyways...forget about the fact that he's a defenceman. I, however, am seriously to lazy to check on that...and really don't care to. Guerin is not HHOF material. I'd put Theoren Fleury ahead of him...but we all know that's not happening
Fetisov GP G A Pts PIM
RSL Totals 367 141 198 339 314
NHL Totals 546 36 192 228 656
that doesn't include international play
GP G A Pts PIM
Fleury....1084 455 633 1088 1840
Gold medal....Stanley Cup....all that too!
alright...I'm not uber lazy I guess! |
| Guest0970 |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 16:23:34
quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
well the way I see it I think Bill Guerin has had a more successful career than some players that have made the Hall of Fame like Rod Langway and Viacheslav Fetisov. So if these two can make the Hall of Fame then yeah I think Bill Guerin definitely should be in the Hall of Fame some year
(ADMIN EDIT - CONTENT REMOVED - PERSONAL ATTACK)
Languay and Fetisov are defensive defensemen, that's what got them into the Hall. Not for putting up points.
Guerin unfortunately will not get in. He may get into the US HHOF but not "THE" HHOF. Just not enough oomph in his career. |
| hanley6 |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 15:14:45
well the way I see it I think Bill Guerin has had a more successful career than some players that have made the Hall of Fame like Rod Langway and Viacheslav Fetisov. So if these two can make the Hall of Fame then yeah I think Bill Guerin definitely should be in the Hall of Fame some year |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 14:45:10
quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
I lke the format and I like the topic, well done Pasty!
I never realized Guerin had those kind of accolades in his career, he has always struck me as a good player, some years even bordering on great, but just bordering.
That being said, the Hall is much more discretionary in my opinion and his achievements, while certainly nothing to sneeze at, don't warrant induction...again just my opinion. He's one of those good players that just never seemed to make you go wow!, rather he was one of those mid round pool picks that made you hope he put up 80 or so.
I think that because of the 'category' he falls under, that of the 'power forward', he just didn't do enough to get the same nod as a Cam Neely.
There are others that have lesser numbers that are in the HOF, but they had other intangibles, whereas Guerin, like I stated, good, but just not the kind of player that you think of when you think HHOF.
i tend to agree in the sence that i feel if he had maybe one more pieace of prominant hardware like maybe another cup where he wasn;t nessiarily a conn smyth winner but even a close runner up he could get the nod, i mean he has impressive numbers for a player who has played the gritty in your face power forward style for so long and 400 goal club is nothing to sneeze at but i think he's missing that extra touch,, but if he goes to a contender this year and really flys in the playoffs who knows but it would have to be this year or next because at 38 hes getting near to the end of his line though he is on pace to crack 50 points this year and 30 goals ,,, and appear in all 82 games maybe hes got some left
Pasty |
| fat_elvis_rocked |
Posted - 02/09/2009 : 14:08:07
I lke the format and I like the topic, well done Pasty!
I never realized Guerin had those kind of accolades in his career, he has always struck me as a good player, some years even bordering on great, but just bordering.
That being said, the Hall is much more discretionary in my opinion and his achievements, while certainly nothing to sneeze at, don't warrant induction...again just my opinion. He's one of those good players that just never seemed to make you go wow!, rather he was one of those mid round pool picks that made you hope he put up 80 or so.
I think that because of the 'category' he falls under, that of the 'power forward', he just didn't do enough to get the same nod as a Cam Neely.
There are others that have lesser numbers that are in the HOF, but they had other intangibles, whereas Guerin, like I stated, good, but just not the kind of player that you think of when you think HHOF.
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