| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 10:14:23
Alrighty heres the deal i'm going to post the name and career stats of any plus 30 player in the NHL or any other professional hockey (remember its the hockey hall of fame not the NHL hall of fame) and i would like to maybe incite some debate on weather such player is hall worthy or not i encourage anyone to post a player and his stats but would ask that if there is a good debate going on about another player to wait untill the debate cools down before bringing up another player,, also try and avoid locks for the Hall like example Marty Brodeur, so again the rules are simple and Hockey player who is 30 or over and is still active (not retired)
Theoren Fleury
RW 5ft 6inch 180lbs
NHL Seasons: 16
NHL GP: 1084
NHL G: 455
NHL A: 633
NHL P: 1088
Playoffs
NHL GP: 77
NHL G: 34
NHL A: 45
NHL P : 79
Pasty |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Guest5052 |
Posted - 05/20/2010 : 13:31:04
For me Fleury is a really tough call. I tend to think I have a high threshold for who ought to get into the Hall. I think that you have to have been a great player for a reasonably signifcant period of time. To me, Fleury was close to that and is in a group of guys that may or may not get in. Oates, Gilmour etc. Having said that his stats are pretty close to Steve Larmer's and worse than a few guys not in. I m not sure I ever really remember him necessarily being a top ten forward in the league for a long period of time. i prefer to think that the Hall is reserved for Greats, and ought not to be watered down.
I dont really care that a guy was short or not, its whether he was effective on the ice (although admittedly there may be some narrow sentiment for the little guy .... I am convinced that J. Mullen was inducted ahead of Hawerchuk because he was born in Hell's Kitchen as opposed to being a better hockey player- which I disagree with).
With respect to his off ice problems, i think yeah they ought to be given some consideration (but if Gretzky had those same problems, its a none issue) but I also think he has made efforts to right wrongs and so they ought to be mitigated to some extent.
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| polishexpress |
Posted - 05/20/2010 : 11:22:41
I enjoyed reading your comment Irvine, especially this part: quote:
That to me, makes the man. Not what he has done in the past, but he is doing now after realizing what he had done.
I wish more people felt that way. |
| irvine |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 23:52:16
I understand about character factoring in.
But, to me, I just feel like if the guy has redeemed himself, and is showing that he can be a productive member of society now. Why not?
He did a lot for the game and the city of Calgary, despite his drug addiction.
He was not the one to molest those young kids, he was the victim in that, sadly.
He did not murder anyone, did nothing of a violent, sadistic nature.
He had, what many, many people have. A drug/alcohol addiction. That seems to be cured. Which in it self, takes a lot of hard work and dedication.
Fluery to me, deserves to be in the Hall. For his on-ice antics, not the ones off the ice.
He has learned from his mistakes, it seems. Which, is all you can ask of a man. We all make them, the main thing is to learn from them, fix them as best of your ability, and not make the same one twice.
That to me, makes the man. Not what he has done in the past, but he is doing now after realizing what he had done.
I'm not for punishing those who have already been punished. And, Fleury punished himself by living that life. It took his tole. He finished his career very, very early because of it.
Now, let us atleast, let him be where he deserves. For what he did, during his time.
Irvine/prez. |
| polishexpress |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 22:31:38
I agree with Bean's sentiments about being a good person, or at least making an effort to be a good person, not just a good hockey player to be considered the best and HHOF worthy.
In fact, the HHOF Bylaws agree, notice this excerpt from Bylaw 21 of HHOF, taken from http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/indByLaw21.htm, a website that is linked to hhof.com:
quote:
BASIS OF SELECTION OF CANDIDATES
Candidates for election as Honoured Members in the player category shall be chosen on the basis of their playing ability, sportsmanship, character and their contribution to their team or teams and to the game of hockey in general.
Notice that sportsmanship and character are requirements for a candidate of the HHOF.
Therefore, a player's off-ice actions, or at least their reputation, if not what they really do, will have an impact on their getting into the Hall of Fame, regardless of their on-ice talent, abilities and accomplishments.
That is why I think that Fleury will not be inducted immediately when he is eligible, as there many others with similar abilities and without Fleury's negative or positive controversies.
It would be easier for a member of the HHOF selection committee to justify a player with similar or slightly lesser hockey resume than that of Fleury if they lived a quieter life outside of hockey.
But again, maybe the controversy will sway the vote in Theo's favour, wanting to honour his hockey career in light of his recent positive turnaround. I don't think so, but l echo beans in saying: "I don't make these decisions."
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| Beans15 |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 20:41:50
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I'm with Irvine on this one. The non-hockey stuff . . . well, if he screws up in those areas of life, he pays the consequences for them there. Why should he have to pay double?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
He/She doesn't have to pay double.
You don't see many alcoholic, drug user, degenerate gamblers getting the Man of the Year in many communites are you??
All I am saying is that to be put in the same groups the the best of all time you better be a good person too. Or in Fleury's case, seen the light and turned it all around to be a good person.
Allen Eagleson anyone?? No one can argue that he did a ton of positive things for the NHL(players union, international hockey) but his actions were also very unbecoming a HOFer. |
| n/a |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 19:28:43
I'm with Irvine on this one. The non-hockey stuff . . . well, if he screws up in those areas of life, he pays the consequences for them there. Why should he have to pay double?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 10:07:04
See, I disagree that the Hall has nothing to do with off ice stuff. I want the guys in my Hall of Fame to be classy, did good stuff for their communities, and left the game better than they started with.
Fleury, a few years ago, did not fit that mold at all. However, not only did he do magic on the ice, but he has turned around a lot off the ice and is doing good things. Maybe he didn't when he played but he is making up for it.
Unfortunately for everyone, I don't make these decisions.  |
| irvine |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 09:27:11
For, as I stated in my previous post...
The Hall should be based solely on on-ice performance. Not off-ice mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes, including being an alcoholic.
Is that really the end all, be all? I mean, really. How many more players do you think in the NHL have been addicted to drugs/alcohol? Including that of cocaine. I could name 3 NHL players right now, who I have witnessed personally, doing cocaine at a club. I won't, of course.
It's just silly to me. This guy did what he had to, on the ice. And he did it very well. Hall of Fame vote for me. He made off-ice mistakes, which, should not affect the HOCKEY Hall of Fame. Not the OFF-ICE Hall of Fame.
Irvine/prez. |
| polishexpress |
Posted - 05/18/2010 : 15:53:47
Actually, Guest 2794 raised some good points about the character of Fleury, which I only thought about briefly before mentioning who should go in before Fleury.
This is not the forum for talking about what abuse Fleury went through, nor what it took to take it public.
But just a quick thought, and I say this in all seriousness, without any slight against Fleury nor anyone who has gone through similar things:
What Fleury went through does not excuse his actions throughout his career, ie alcoholism.
I fear that his immediate induction to the Hall would excuse his actions during his career (esp. substance abuse) regardless of his motives for doing so.
In my opinion, an induction to the Hall of Fame should be based on an excellent career and ambassadorship for the NHL, although there should be lenience for past mistakes if they have or are being atoned for in some fashion.
For that reason I think that inducting Fleury immediately into the HHOF would be rash. It would appear that his induction was based greatly on sympathy, pity, or even guilt on the part of the NHL not helping Fleury the way they should have.
Now, Fleury has seemed to turn his life around, and has given good reason for his actions in the past. There is little doubt that most can forgive his past.
Therefore, I think that HHOF induction should wait until the controversy and publicity around his abuse and abuser (i don't think the abuser deserves to even be named) dies away, and more focus could be given to his hockey performances, instead of his personal life.
In that way, the integrity of the HHOF could be maintained and Fleury could be inducted, not as a drunkard, druggie, or victim, but as a hockey player who persevered despite personal demons. |
| Guest2794 |
Posted - 05/18/2010 : 14:47:35
Getting sick of hearing about what Fleury did off the ice. Bottom line is he was a hell of a player ,,,maybe the biggest Flames icon. I dont hear anyone on the topic talking about how much it would take for a guy to tell about the sick pig Graham James and the horrible things he did to those boys when they were kids dreaming of making the NHL and using it against them in thinking it would diminish their chance of making it. Through allllllllllll of the adversity he went through then to make light of James so hopefully it doesnt happen to others.....Give me a break,,,,,Theo your jersey hangs on my wall as it did on my back as a young Flames fan no matter what the idiots in the league do. And thankyou for making the pre-season one to remember considering you scored goals put up good points and didnt make the team,in what i honestly believe they used you to help sell tickets (but thats another rant). YES FLEURY BELONGS |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 05/18/2010 : 14:30:22
That list is pretty solid. But why does any of those guys deserve a look before Fleury?? I would put a few of them ahead (Sakic, Jagr, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Chilios, Modano) but most of them I have behind or at least even with Fleury.
One has to remember, Stanley Cup Winner, Gold Medal Winner, WJC Winner, Canada Cup Winner, 96 World Cup Silver, 91 World Championship Silver.
That is more success than many of the players on your list.
Ultimately, I would not argue to see any those guys in the Hall(except for Matheiu Schnider, are you joking??)
In jest, think about how tough it is for you to stumble home from the Pub after having a few too many pints. Fleury found a way to be a PPG player for over 1000 games and win at every level he played and he was loaded most of the time!!!
I'd like to see Mats Sundin chuck out a couple of 100+ point seasons after drinking a litre of Swedish Potato Vodka before every game! |
| polishexpress |
Posted - 05/18/2010 : 12:04:52
Good response Beans! I was actually hoping that I would not be asked that, because I didn't have any specific people in mind, but here are some, that in my opinion only, should be in HHOF before Fleury:
(Sidenote: The players I list may or may not qualify for HHOF, I am not certain how the retirement qualifications work, and I do not know what the players plans are, nor will I bother to check all of their stats to see whether they are worthy. Sorry if I list some already in the Hall. )
The players I list will simply be ones I think could or should go in before Fleury, if they qualify:
Joe Sakic
Doug Gilmour
Adam Oates
Pierre Turgeon
Mats Sundin -- just for wearing that blue jersey
Brendan Shanahan
Sergei Fedorov
Joe Nieuwendyk
Now some HHOF worthy (IMO) goalies:
Ed Belfour
Curtis Joseph
Dominik Hasek --is he really retired?
Some players that should go before Fleury if they retire soon:
Niklas Lidstrom
Chris Chelios
Mathieu Schneider
Rob Blake
Scott Niedermayer
Teemu Selanne
Jaromir Jagr
Mike Modano
Mark Recchi
Sergei Zubov
*maybe* Keith Tkatchuk
There you go Beans! I don't mean to say every individual player listed above is much better than Fleury, but I would definitely give the above players a look before Fleury.
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| Beans15 |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 22:31:28
quote:
Originally posted by polishexpress
I say no to Fleury for now, not until better players than him get into the Hall of Fame. There are many players still waiting their turn.
Alright then, why don't you qualify it.
What players who are currently eligable for the Hall or will be eligable at the same time as Fleury are better and shoud be in the Hall but are not??
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| polishexpress |
Posted - 05/17/2010 : 22:10:05
I say no to Fleury for now, not until better players than him get into the Hall of Fame. There are many players still waiting their turn. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 05/16/2010 : 19:35:00
i say yes...dm good player...esp. given his size |
| 99pickles |
Posted - 05/16/2010 : 13:07:13
Stanley Cup ring??
Olympic Gold medal??
Canada Cup Gold medal??
World Cup SIlver medal??
1000 point career??
Career point -per-game player (during dead-puck era no less)??
Throw in a second team all-star selection, NHL Captaincy, led his team in scoring 7 seasons, holds several career and single season records from his junior team, was even top scorer and "player of the year" in a foreign league...
Yep, he qualifies.
Not only do I feel that Theo Fleury 100% deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, I expect that the announcement will be made in the summer of 2013.
He officially filed his retirement after his exhibition comeback last fall and the 3 year wait will bring him to 2012. The following summer would be his first opportunity to be nominated and voted on.
With panel members like Lanny MacDonald and Eric Duhatschek he may have enough vocal support amongst voters. But with old boys like Harry Sinden and Scotty Bouwman on the panel, I am concerned that they may view him as too much of a hot dog.
However, some of those older voters may not be on that panel by the time 2013 rolls around. If MacDonald and Duhatschek are still panel voters at that time, then I expect to see Fleury voted in on that June of 2013 ballot. |
| irvine |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 12:45:24
Theoren Fleury SHOULD be in the HALL!
This guy played with all of the heart and passion you could want from a guy... not to mention, he was highly skilled for such a small guy. Heck, for any sized guy.
His stats speak for themselves, his cup and gold do too.
The only thing I want to to touch on, is his substance abuse and something that Beans said.
Beans said "All of this being consided, I strongly believe that players in the HOF need to have some kind of positive impact/be a role model to the game to be in the Hall. At the very least, nothing negative towards the game or the image of the game. "
And I agree here. But, having Fleury in the hall could be used towards having a positive influence on people, kids specifically.
When they see the name of Fleury in the Hall (who deserves to be there anyways,) and the story behind him. It may help change kids lives.
You take a guy, who was molsested as a child (as many kids are), and see a life that could have been brilliant in the best hockey league there is. But, he fell to drug issues. Rather than taking care of his problems, the way one should.
What I am trying to get at is, just because he fell to a drug issue (which, becomes a disease... literally), we should not punish what he was as a player. The Hall is based on what a person does, in their hockey career, on the ice. Not their personal issues, diseases, or personal life. How many people do you know, who does or has done, a drug? I mean, honestly.
For me, his personal demons are his personal demons, not ours. His on ice performance, is what was for all of us to enjoy. With that being said, I'm all for Theo in the hall.
Irvine/prez. |
| hockster |
Posted - 06/23/2009 : 14:41:29
I strongly agree with that.
Iginla for 2010 team captain.
Flames for cup...eventually. |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 06/23/2009 : 14:30:06
I am a southern albertan who does not cheer for the Flames or Oilers until they are the last Canadian team in the playoffs. Theo Fluery was the face of the Flames for 3-4 years. He was the player who best described hard working, overachieving underdog, perseverence and tenasity. He was a point a game player who played on a team with no stars but himself, after all the greats left the team 2-3 years post Cup win. He groomed a young Jerome Iginla. He is my favorite memory from the 2002 Olympics. He was even controversial to make the team, let alone be its heart and soul during the gold medal game.
I truly believe he should be recognized in the hall of fame. If you dont put Theo in because of personal demons, its understandable, but he will always be a hall of famer in my books. |
| hockster |
Posted - 06/23/2009 : 10:37:53
I agree with beans, he has the numbers and passion but will not get in due to the substance abuse. A 16 season career and a ppg is a great stat, pretty well everyone with a ppg gets into the Hall of Fame but he had too many issues.
Iginla for 2010 team captain.
Flames for cup...eventually. |
| Guest0332 |
Posted - 04/24/2009 : 08:35:11
The period from 1995 to 2004 in the NHL is sometimes referred to as the "Dead Puck Era" in reference to the decreased scoring environment. ...
2002 stats Forsberg 106 Points in 75 games (rank first)
Sundin 72 points in 75 games (rank 25th)
Enough said (we could go on and on)see below
Sundin was a good player but never a great one (he was always overpaid for his production and overhyped because he played in Toronto)
He should not even smell the Hall of Fame
PS: I picked the year he played with Mogilny (who had 79 points in 73 games)
Sundin last ten years:
1996-97 7th in scoring
97-98 15 th
98-99 12th
99-00 17th
00-01 not in top 25
01-02 4th with 80 points
02-03 25 th
03-04 13th
05-06 30 th
06-07 20 th
Only twice in the top 10
Was he EVER the best player in Hockey? |
| Guest9820 |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 14:02:19
As for those 6 - you'll see all of them in the HOF at some point
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9838
Good Topics, love Fleury and would love to see him in the hall...
As for your next debate you chould think about, Recchi, Mogilny, Roenick, Brind'Amour, Tkatchuk or Selanne all probably good discussions.
|
| Guest9820 |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 14:01:18
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9838
Good Topics, love Fleury and would love to see him in the hall...
As for your next debate you chould think about, Recchi, Mogilny, Roenick, Brind'Amour, Tkatchuk or Selanne all probably good discussions.
|
| Guest4610 |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 10:56:58
Theoren DESERVES to be in!!!!!!!!!! |
| Guest5627 |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 10:37:38
Hands down he should be in the hall! name me a player who has over 1000 points and is 5 foot 6. Big heart great skill clutch guy= hall of fame. |
| Guest9847 |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 14:55:03
Doug Weight and Robert Lang
|
| Guest9847 |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 14:53:59
I don't know stats but Steve Yzerman, Scott Stevens, Niklas Lidstrom, Chris Pronger, Dominik Hassek, Jeremy Roenick, and Mark Rechi. |
| wyntyre |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 16:59:56
Seriously....I think if the Flames ever retired his number 14....that would be his Hall of Fame...and...really...that's all I'd like to see. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 15:42:11
quote:
Originally posted by andyhack
Just a general comment first. Talking about what "will" happen is relatively uninteresting (for me, anyway) compared to the obviously more compelling question of what you think "should" happen.
In my opinion Theo should not get in, but not because of his off-ice problems, but simply because he falls short of the mark that I would like to see the HOF have as the borderline for getting in - as perhaps does one of my childhood favorites, Rick Middleton, by the way (but if Theo gets in...).
That's not to say the guy doesn't get a LOT of respect from me. Incredible story!
But I think the Hall of Fame loses some of its meaning if you don't have some truly great players failing to get in. Look at Bean's list above. Do you really want a Hall with all those guys in it? After Jagr, one or two maybe. but that's about it.
The off-ice stuff should be an aside in my view. No matter what Ty Cobb, O.J. Simpson, Pete Rose ... did, I think you give them the Hall of Fame thing for their sports accomplishments, and simply call them scum buckets in your conversations and articles (if you want). The only exception I would make to that is if someone does something unbelievably horrific - and I 'm talking Chucky Manson type stuff now.
Otherwise, it becomes so arbitrary. Do we take Jimmy Connors out of the Tennis Hall of Fame for calling an umpire an "abortion"? Do we take Wilt Chamberlain out of the Basketball Hall of Fame for very likely treating at least 1000 of those women on his list pretty badly? And do we take Frank Sinatra out of the Singers Hall of Fame (if there were such a thing) because he once in a while had lunch (and perhaps some other business) with some buddies who were in the "olive oil business"?
In my opinion, the answer to all of the aboving is a resounding NO!
And remember, I don't give a "fart's ass" (Brando said that I think) about what will happen, only what should.
Well in that case i vote we blow up the hall and start from scratch. I'm not even kidding, I agree the hall should be for the truly Great players. If there is a debate or if you even have to think about it the guy doesn't belong in the Hall. Personaly if this was the way it was i still think Fleury is in no matter what. He has the numbers, he has the cup he has the points per game and he did this all with a tremdous handicap. Don't forget Theo never played the new NHL, Theo was a a little man among giants and he turned out to be one of the biggest giants of his hockey generation. He played both ends of the rink and was willing to do it all to win, I actually watched Gold rush a tribute to the 2002 gold medal game today, on a stacked team Theo was a big as names like Mario Lemieux Joe Sakic and the Steve Yzerman's take Fleury away from that team there may not even be a gold medal. (i'm dead serious) how many players on a team like team Canada can say that? I had a sick day today and I just watch the tourny Theo was scoring setting up beautiful goals and blocking shots backchecking, I don't put Fleury in the same class as the Lemieux's and Sakics but hes at the top of the class below
Pasty |
| andyhack |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 15:06:17
Just a general comment first. Talking about what "will" happen is relatively uninteresting (for me, anyway) compared to the obviously more compelling question of what you think "should" happen.
In my opinion Theo should not get in, but not because of his off-ice problems, but simply because he falls short of the mark that I would like to see the HOF have as the borderline for getting in - as perhaps does one of my childhood favorites, Rick Middleton, by the way (but if Theo gets in...).
That's not to say the guy doesn't get a LOT of respect from me. Incredible story!
But I think the Hall of Fame loses some of its meaning if you don't have some truly great players failing to get in. Look at Bean's list above. Do you really want a Hall with all those guys in it? After Jagr, one or two maybe. but that's about it.
The off-ice stuff should be an aside in my view. No matter what Ty Cobb, O.J. Simpson, Pete Rose ... did, I think you give them the Hall of Fame thing for their sports accomplishments, and simply call them scum buckets in your conversations and articles (if you want). The only exception I would make to that is if someone does something unbelievably horrific - and I 'm talking Chucky Manson type stuff now.
Otherwise, it becomes so arbitrary. Do we take Jimmy Connors out of the Tennis Hall of Fame for calling an umpire an "abortion"? Do we take Wilt Chamberlain out of the Basketball Hall of Fame for very likely treating at least 1000 of those women on his list pretty badly? And do we take Frank Sinatra out of the Singers Hall of Fame (if there were such a thing) because he once in a while had lunch (and perhaps some other business) with some buddies who were in the "olive oil business"?
In my opinion, the answer to all of the aboving is a resounding NO!
And remember, I don't give a "fart's ass" (Brando said that I think) about what will happen, only what should. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 12:32:10
Just a quick piece to clarify. Pete Rose was never in the Baseball Hall of Fame. His lifetime ban came 3 years after he retired and he was never voted into the Hall.
And Lefleur is an interesting case. I personally don't believe he should be pulled from the HOF, but I would suggest that if his situations was to happen before we was inducted, it might have been an influence.
And I don't think anyone has ever been kicked out of the Hockey Hall of Fame. Allen Eagleson comes to mind, however he resigned. That happened 6 days before a vote was to occur to expell him. He was not thrown out.
All of this being consided, I strongly believe that players in the HOF need to have some kind of positive impact/be a role model to the game to be in the Hall. At the very least, nothing negative towards the game or the image of the game.
Just my 2 cents. |
| hanley6 |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 00:39:18
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
not to mention he's a ppg in the playoffs too, as for the substance abuse thing should we take Guy Lafleur out because he is about to stand trial? It the hockey hall of fame , not the Model Citzen Hockey Hall of fame, its to bad off ice actions will take away from a brilliant career because wasn't he 33 when he played his last nhl season and the last few weren't even full because of these off ice problems, imagin if these problems we're none existent we'd be talking about a 1500 point plateau at least not just 1088!
Pasty
why not? They took Pete Rose out of the Baseball hall of fame because of his gambling problem as a coach, that had nothing to do with his playing time...and Pete Rose is the best hitter of all time....gambling and drug really whats the difference? but in Lafleur's case they shouldn't take him out of the Hall of fame he isn't the problem....from wikipedia...
"Lafleur's son Mark had a number of run-ins with the law, including charges of sexual assault. Part of Mark's bail conditions was that he remain at his father's (Guy) house. In 2008, questions about Lafleur's testimony in his son's case resulted in an arrest warrant being issued for Lafleur, which his lawyer criticized as an unnecessary embarrassment. In 2009 Guy Lafleur was charged with obstruction of justice for helping Mark to break his curfew by driving him to a hotel to see his girlfriend; the trial is scheduled for April 2009. Lafleur has filed a $2.8 million dollar civil suit against police and prosecutors, claiming that his rights were violated" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Lafleur
Guy Lafluer was 39 when he officially retired from the NHL back in 1991. He still had 17 seasons under he would have had 20 if he didn't retire the first time back in 1985. His career very successful in 1127 games he had 560 goals 793 assists and 1353 Points 399 PIMs...haha wow Gretzky had 178 more PIM... but seriously they shouldn't take Lafleur out of the hall of fame for his sons problems.
Fleury on the other hand yeah he played his last NHL game when he was 34 and even knowing his numbers are very impressive I doubt they will put him in the hall of fame because of his substance abuse.. Theoren Fleury has been through a lot..from wikipedia...
"wrestling with off ice worries, including his father's cancer operation, his substance abuse problems had began to surface, something which he battled since his playing career began in Calgary. In 1996, he was diagnosed with Crohn's Disease. Although seemingly under control for half a year by the time he won Olympic gold, Fleury's substance abuse issues resurfaced. In October 2002 he suffered a relapse and was suspended for six months, and placed in the NHL/NHLPA Substance Abuse and Behavioral Health Program for violating his aftercare program. His drug problems were a source of great taunting from opposing fans, primarily those of the New York Islanders, who gave him the nickname "Crackhead Theo". He said on several occasions that if he had been able to make a comeback to the NHL, the only team for which he would play would be the Calgary Flames." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoren_Fleury
I could be wrong but I doubt he'll get in
(ADMIN EDIT - Hanley6, please remember to cite your sources if you are using their information - Thanks!) |
| CaliforniaSeal |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 00:20:15
I always felt the HOF should be reserved for the elite players. Fleury is on the bubble. My friend and I were just discussing the topic of Fleury into the HOF. We both felt that he is not quite up to HOF standard.
No cup for Dino, what a shame |
| Guest9691 |
Posted - 02/11/2009 : 19:31:28
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
not to mention he's a ppg in the playoffs too, as for the substance abuse thing should we take Guy Lafleur out because he is about to stand trial? It the hockey hall of fame , not the Model Citzen Hockey Hall of fame, its to bad off ice actions will take away from a brilliant career because wasn't he 33 when he played his last nhl season and the last few weren't even full because of these off ice problems, imagin if these problems we're none existent we'd be talking about a 1500 point plateau at least not just 1088!
Pasty
Not saying what Guy did was right or anything but he lied to protect his son. He didn't abuse substances and make a mockery of himself. If Guy were to lie about taking illegal drugs while abusing people around him, he'd get the boot. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 02/11/2009 : 09:45:15
not to mention he's a ppg in the playoffs too, as for the substance abuse thing should we take Guy Lafleur out because he is about to stand trial? It the hockey hall of fame , not the Model Citzen Hockey Hall of fame, its to bad off ice actions will take away from a brilliant career because wasn't he 33 when he played his last nhl season and the last few weren't even full because of these off ice problems, imagin if these problems we're none existent we'd be talking about a 1500 point plateau at least not just 1088!
Pasty |
| n/a |
Posted - 02/11/2009 : 06:21:41
Guerin for me was below the line, but Theo is a tough one . . . he's right on the cusp.
I'd vote for him, but it would partly be based on the way he played - a small forward in an era of big forwards, a guy with great skill and an even bigger heart.
MSC brings up some very strong points, though. But, so does Beans . . . and going through his list of the guys with over 1000 points, I think the key supplementary stat is Points Per Game (in brackets):
Dave Taylor (0.96) - should be in HOF
Bobby Smith (0.96) - should be in HOF
Bernie Nicholls (1.07) - HOF
Dino Ciccarelli (0.97) - possibly in HOF
Brian Propp (0.99) - should be in HOF
Steve Larmer (1.01) - HOF
Doug Gilmour (0.96) - HOF
Adam Oates (1.06) - HOF
Phil Housley (0.82 as a defenceman) - HOF
Dale Hunter (0.72) - nope, sorry.
Brian Bellows (0.86) - nope, sorry
Pat Verbeek (0.75) - nope, sorry
Vincent Damphousse (0.87) - nope, sorry
Jaromir Jagr (1.26) - obvious HOF
Alexander Mogilny (1.04) - HOF
Theoren Fleury (1.00) - HOF
Theo should get in. Will he, depends on how much importance they put on his substance abuse, and how much sympathy for him they have to counteract that.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 21:45:10
MSC I was not replying to anyone specifically, just in general. I was just saying that his production in similar to others in the Hall.
And to your Trophy question. What about Joe Mullen, Mike Gartner, Dale Hawerchuk, Bernie Federko, Cam Neely, and now Glenn Anderson?? None of these guys have a full Trophy case or multiple 1st or 2nd All Star team??Not saying that Fluery is ahead of any of these guys. My point is that the hardware is not a prerequisite to make the Hall. Harder to do so yes, but not impossbile.
It's also interesting that most of these guys did not make it in their first chance. So I do partially agree with you. It's not as easy to make it in without the hardware, but not impossible.
Another thing that is very interesting. There are currently 74 players in the history of the game that have 1000 or more career points. Of those, 19 are either still playing or have not reached their HOF eligability.
Of the 55 eligable players who have more than 1000 points, 40 of them (72%) are in the Hall Of Fame. Here is the list of the 15 that are not in. If you look at this list, there are at least 6 that will be in eventually(IMO). That means that more than 80% of the players with more than 1000 points are or will be in the Hall.
Dave Taylor
Bobby Smith
Bernie Nicholls
Dino Ciccarelli
Brian Propp
Steve Larmer
Doug Gilmour
Adam Oates
Phil Housley
Dale Hunter
Brian Bellows
Pat Verbeek
Vincent Damphousse
Jaromir Jagr
Alexander Mogilny
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| wyntyre |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 15:54:35
Well...being the one who mentioned Fleury in the Bill Guerin discussion, I would vote him in. The stats are there, the Stanley Cup, the Gold Medal, the fact that he's the same size as me and played for so long and so well in the NHL....but...well...we all know the but. My thoughts are though, had he stayed in Calgary, he wouldn't of had quite the issues that he ended up with. Sure they would still be there, but he's even said that leaving Calgary was the worst thing for him.
I don't think HHOF will ever happen for him, but I do think the Flames should retire his #14. I mean nobody has worn it since him...Dustin Boyd was #41 when #16 was taken....but why would you take #41 if you could've had #14....so I dunno what's goin' on with that. |
| MSC |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 14:52:12
Not sure if you were replying to me Beansie ol boy or not but just in case....I totally agree that he hit some milestones that are very very impressive. The 1000pt plateau being the most glaring, but his peak goal output seasons are basically elite. But to put it in perspective the year he scored 51 he was still 35 goals away from the Rocket Richard Trophy. In the seasons he scored 40+ goals he was never in the top 5 in goals scored.
The point I'm trying to make is that although impressive numbers when you look at the big picture when he was at his best there many players just as good and a fair number even better then he was.
And to reiterate my previous point...Where's his Hart Trophy, Art Ross, Rocket, Selke, Lady Byng....anything????? He played on a fair number of all-star teams but was he named to any seasnon end 1st or 2nd all-star teams?
My other question has to be if he played with so much heart and passion why was there only a C on his chest for 2 maybe 3 years?
This was a hard piece for me to write because he's was and is one of my all time favorite players but I think even without taking his off-ice situations into account he isn't HHOF material. |
| hanley6 |
Posted - 02/10/2009 : 14:42:34
as far as his career success and number he well deserves the Hall of Fame. But his attitude and drugs takes it away from him... Great player though, would have loved to have seen him as a Leaf |
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