| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 20:20:31
In the wake of the recent hit by Dion Phaneuf on Kyle Okposo an interesting questions is raised. Following the hit, a Gent from Long Island nicely asked my Phaneuf for a waltz. Phaneuf politely declined and one of his team mates took that dance in his place.
If a guy wants to fight, does the other guy have to?? |
| 13 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 09/22/2009 : 22:56:49
I voted no but it's a tough call. It bugs me somewhat that after a good clean hit, a guy should have to fight and thus end up in the penalty box. Having said that, i'd say if the guy is smart, he'd be able to draw an instigator from the guy wanting a piece of him?
Was watching the Leafs / Pens game tonight and Beauchemin threw a beauty body check on one of the Pens (after a suicide pass from his defensive partner) and sure enough, a guy came after him and he dropped the gloves. "The Code" was clearly in effect there! Again, in a tight important game, do the Leafs want Beauchemin dropping the gloves with some 4th line forward and thus being in the penalty box for 5 mins???
Beans, as for the Phaneuf hit, here's the stats on the penalties from Yahoo sports:
Calgary roughing - 2 min 5:35, D. Phaneuf
Calgary goalie leaving crease - 2 min 5:35, M. Kiprusoff served by D. Van der Gulik
NY Islanders roughing - 2 min 5:35, P. Morency
NY Islanders roughing - 2 min 5:35, P. Morency served by M. Martin
NY Islanders game misconduct - 10 min 5:35, P. Morency
NY Islanders goalie leaving crease - 2 min 5:35, M. Biron served by A. Klemenpyev
Interesting that he got a roughing penalty? Looks like the ref didn't consider it a fight as Morency didn't get a fighting major either but did get the extra 2 (double minor). Giordano, the guy who tried to intercept the fight from Phanuef got nothing.
On another note, buddy told me to look up this Morency guys numbers. Well, he's obviously not there to be a playmaker. His stats from 01/02 with Cape Breton (QMJHL)? Have a look at this:
GP - 64 PIM - 596 ???? WTF, can this be real???
He did manage 11 goals and 22 assist for 33 points, not half bad, but c'mon, almost 600 mins in penalties?  |
| irvine |
Posted - 09/22/2009 : 20:09:35
I think it depends greatly on the situation at hand. If a guy randomly asks a non-fighter to scrap, then no. Why should he have to? If a fighter asks a guy whos job is TO fight, then I believe he should take the challenge.
However, there are more situations. If you are a guy, like Phaneouf, who makes big hits and plays hard hockey and you make a devestating hit (like the Okposo one,) then I believe YES. If a guy wants to scrap you after it, I believe you should back it up.
Irvine |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 10:50:00
Did the refs not call a Charging Penalty on Phaneuf when he hit Okposo?? Maybe I am wrong, but I was certain he got 2 minutes out of the hit.
Now, I agree that a clean hit and a dirty hit are far different in the game. But, at top speed there are situations where there is a fine line between clean and dirty. With emotions going on the ice the players often don't see with the clarity that we do when we are watching the replay.
I had a good debate with a couple of buddies on the golf course about this over the week end. The majority agreed that if a player is going to play a physical brand of game he doesn't need to answer the bell every time, but should most of the time. The reputation of being a physical player but never dropping the mitts is not a rep that an NHL player wants. The more than happens, the more that player will shift from being the hunter to being the hunted.
(Not saying this in reference to Phaneuf, just in general) |
| n/a |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 18:13:39
Pretty simple for me, once you decide whether the hit was legal or not. Well, that can and usually is the tricky part, but let's say for argument;s sake the hit is as clean as a northern lake, 'kay?
clean hit = legal play
dirty hit = illegal play
fighting = illegal play
There is nothing that can or should stop a player from making a totally clean and legal play, and there is no way he should be punished for it. Why should he have to take a penalty, risk injury, for a clean hit? That'd be pretty bullsh_t in my mind.
However, if it's a dirty hit . . . all bets are off, and you should expect to get some guys running and gunning for you. There certainly isn't any code or rulebook to follow in terms of whether one has to fight or not, but at the worst, everyone will know you are a coward.
I still say the hit on Okposo was clean, the refs saw it that way as well (no penalty called), and there's no call for him having to fight, other than a few tough kids on the Isles looking to make a reputation for themselves so they can get an NHL contract.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 12:01:39
Ah yes ThortonisTHEMAN, you bring the emotional part of the game into the picture. When your teamate is hurt on the ice, you want to exact revenge and often emotions take over just like they did for the kid who jumped off the bench for the Isles.
That still does not mean you have to go with everyone who is running at you. You put a big hit out, now someone is hurt on the ice and you are feeling bad about it. I know it is part of the game but you still feel bad as player when it happens. I recall a personal situation where I was in the exact same boat. I just smoked a guy with his head down at center ice and I was being challenged to drop the gloves. I declined because I wanted to see the kid was OK and I felt bad enough already that I didn't need to hurt some other kid in a scrap just prove I was tough. |
| ThorntonisTHEMAN |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 11:11:32
Porkchop, I respectfully disagree with you. Now, I agree that Phaneuf didn't intend to injure Okposo. However, when you DO hit with that kind of force and someone get hurt, you better be ready for the other team to wanna drop the gloves with you. Hits are a part of the game and you GOTTA keep your head up. But if you knock someone out, you HAVE to be ready for the other team to dance! They don't care if it was clean or illegal...all they are noticing is their teammate motionless on the ice! |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 07:58:05
No, you do not always have to dance when asked. Phaneufs hit is a perfect example of a situation where dropping the mitts is not necessary. He did not intend to injure the guy he just threw a good clean hit.
Really there are only a few situations where you have to drop the gloves.
1. Somebody jumps you, you better defend yourself.
2. Sticking up for teamates after a dirty hit or cheap shot is thrown on them.
3. If you cheap shot or throw a dirty hit on someone, be prepared to defend your actions.
4. Getting your team and the home crowd into a slow game.
The first three are why there is fighting in the NHL. They allow the players to police themselves somewhat. |
| PhillyFan12 |
Posted - 09/19/2009 : 15:48:44
I think it was a good,clean check that just seemed to wipe out the guy.So there shouldnt be a penalty on a good hard check that wiped him out.
PhillyFan12
Philly Rules!!! |
| brentrock2 |
Posted - 09/19/2009 : 14:45:02
I say no let the other guy get the penalty because its letting your team down but i know the fans and people enjoy a good hockey fight but let the guy get the penalty and be on a power play and luckily enough they might score.
HABS RULE!!
brentrock2 |
| ThorntonisTHEMAN |
Posted - 09/19/2009 : 14:32:45
Excellent story, Beans....I really enjoyed that.
I answered that you should have to dance....Whether the hit was clean or not is not really the point. The point is that Okposo was down, not moving, after a HUGE hit so obviously the Isles were gonna wanna fight. Calgary would've done the same thing if it was one of their guys. But Phaneuf needed to have the balls to actually do the dancing himself. He made the hit, he needs to be able to baby up and face what the inevitable. |
| Leafs81 |
Posted - 09/19/2009 : 07:51:59
I agree after dishing out a dirty hit, a player has to drop the gloves. But after a clean hit I don't know, the code is not the same I guess.
About what just happen to Phaneuf, the guy was coming off the bench, I wonder what would have happen if Phaneuf would have drop the gloves. I wonder if it would have been a bench clearing brawl.
Anyway if you knock out somebody, somebody is coming after you and you gain way more respect, from the fans, players, coach if you drop em. All in all every situation is different and it's hard to judge.
Good story Beans. |
| Guest9494 |
Posted - 09/19/2009 : 07:36:33
yes only if your not avery or his sloppy seconds buddy phaneuf |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 20:37:20
I voted yes you have to dance, but I am really on the fence on this one. Here are a couple of things to consider.
1) In an article I recently read, Phaneuf was compared to Scott Stevens. More than a little premature on that comparison but that's irrelevant. The writer noted that after Stevens administered the "Last Rite" on some poor soul at the blue line, he always dropped the mitts if asked. Eventually, the other players in the league stopped going at Stevens because they were sick of getting smacked around after getting hit!
2) I think that Today's NHL is so diluted that some tough guy on the other team thinks every hit needs to be followed by a scrap. In this case, it's stupid. Clean hit, no dance required. Dirty hit, you better drop'em.
3) One of, if not the best hockey story I have ever heard. Ryan Walter (look him up if you don't know) is a motivational speaker after his career as a player. My company hired him. This is one of his stories.
He was a rookie, or very close to it. He was playing for Washington and they were playing Boston. During the game, a scrum started in the corner. Walter was right there, doing what he could. Next thing he knew, he lost control of his stick when he was trying to tie a guy up. The stick went over the top of his head and he felt it hit something. He turns around. It's Terry O'Reilly (look him up if you don't know). Bloody O'Reilly looks Walter in the eye and says, "We gotta go." Walter drops his mitts and they are off. O'Reilly must of been having an off night or the adrenaline in Walter was huge. Next thing Walter knew, he was on top of O'Reilly. Walter's fist if cocked ready to take him out and O'Reilly said, "My Shoulder is out." The fall to the ice popped O'Reilly's shoulder out of it's socket. Walter held him there, did not hit him, and waited for the refs to come in.
Up to that point, this was the only conversation that Ryan Walter ever had with Terry O'Reilly.
A few years later, Ryan Walter gets an invitation in the mail to attend O'Reilly's retirement dinner. He is one of only 3 non Bruins to get invited.
There is a great story of the Code. Both ways. Sometime you have to dance, no choice. But also, there is an honor to the game (or there was at least) that players respect each other. |
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