| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 11/01/2009 : 01:32:19
WOW! Have a look at this if you haven't already seen it. Michael Liambas, an overager from the Erie Otters absolutely destroys a guy from the Kitchener Rangers by the name of Ben Fanelli (16yrs old) behind the net. Apparently this kid is in the hospital with a fractured skull in critical, but stable condition! From the little bit i read and a few other youtube clips i saw, this Liambas kid looks like a real badass! Don't wanna say he intended to put this other kid in the hospital, but it's not his first big hit, that's for sure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPj-kCp1rGI
Not sure when this second clip is from, but i'd def call it a cheap shot on Tavares by the same guy (Liambas). Could have easily broken Tavares' neck!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow7csCcRSKs&feature=related
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| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Guest4178 |
Posted - 09/15/2010 : 10:48:25
Hey Slozo – to some extent, we will have to (respectively) agree to disagree, but not on all points.
I have no problem with how Scott Stevens played the game (especially for his era), and you're description of his playing style is bang on. ("Hockey plays, and oftentimes catching players with their head down.")
I wasn't really questioning the legality of Stevens' hits, just the violent nature of some of his hits. (And comparing the violence of his most vicious bodychecks with the Laimbas hit.) It is a different game now, and the game is called differently, and I'm sure we agree on that point too.
At the time, Stevens' hits on Lindros and Kariya were judged differently than they would be in today's game. Head shots were rarely called in Stevens' era, but if we saw the Stevens-Lindros hit today (in the NHL or in major junior hockey),
a suspension of some length would be the outcome.
There are many reasons the game is called differently today, and perhaps the Stevens-Lindros hit played a small role, especially when you consider the stature of Lindros as a player, and also, that he was never the same player again, and eventually his career ended as a result of head shots. Of course, there were many other players who were affected by head shots, which further influenced the NHL to deal differently with these hits. (Where a player's head was down, and a bodychecker was looking to separate the head from the body, rather than the puck from the player.)
I genuinely believe that some of Stevens' hits, when viewed today, look bad, and compare in violence and outcome (not necessarily legality, but mostly because of the era) to the Liambas hit. They're different kind of hits for sure, but I have a hard time saying this Liambas kid should be banned from hockey for life, and just a decade (or so) ago, hits like Stevens were lauded and rarely penalized.
Don't get me wrong. I'm a big Scott Stevens fan, but he played the game with meanness and the desire to hurt his opponents. (At least sometimes.) I also agree with you that the majority of Stevens' hits were "hockey plays," at least at the time. If he was playing the game today however, he would have to change his style, or get used to being suspended. In today's NHL, players have more respect for their opponents than in the past, and the rules have influenced them to play the game with more respect.
In this respect (pardon the pun), I don't disagree with you that the Liambas hit deserves some harsh punishment (especially if he is a repeat offender), but where I disagree (I would suggest slightly) is the extent of the punishment.
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| n/a |
Posted - 09/15/2010 : 07:36:11
Guest 4178 - I appreciate your comments and that you took the time to enjoy the comments, but I will have to violently disagree with your take on Scott Stevens.
I brought him up as an example of a player that, while some of his hits were considered "over the line" or slightly "dirty", every single one of them was a HOCKEY PLAY. You admitted it yourself - a player coming over the blueline. With the puck. What is a defenceman's role in the game? To seperate that guy from the puck and get the offense going in the opposite direction! And that is what Stevens endeavoured to do every time.
Many times I have directed people to search out on youtube his greatest hits - and his top ten beat anyone else's I have ever seen, btw - and you will find very few hits, almost none, in the middle of the ice. Most are just inside the blueline in his own zone, and a few just outside the blueline.
Those are hockey plays. Hockey plays that, if the rushing player had his head down or was not paying attention, could be devastating physically as well. But the intention first and foremost was a hockey play.
Liambas was FORECHECKING in the offensive zone, and took a run from the centre ice line, gliding in without check to come in at nearly full speed.
To compare Liambas (and his other similar hits) to Stevens in terms of legality of hits and situation is extremely disingenuous.
When you talk about lies, damn lies and statistics, I would classify your characterisation of Stevens' hits as a "damn lie", with all due respect.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Guest9023 |
Posted - 09/14/2010 : 23:03:28
That wasn't a dirty hit, Fanelli turned at the last second, was Liambis supposed to pull out his time freeze that he bought on ebay or something?
I'll agree that the outcome was beyond brutal, but for almost everyone to condemn a player for finishing a check on another player who shows his back at the very last second is ridiculous.
Everyone should have another look, I know what I saw... |
| Guest4178 |
Posted - 09/14/2010 : 15:35:52
To paraphrase a famous quote: "There are lies, damn lies, and there are statistics."
Nonetheless, I was a bit surprised to see that Scott Stevens took only 4 minor penalties for elbowing. There's no doubt the game is called differently today, compared to when Stevens played, so perhaps this is the reason.
Did he get a few majors for elbowing? Or boarding? Or other major egregious offenses on the ice?
Did he get a penalty for his hit on Lindros? And if you can't see the elbow in that hit, you should watch the video again.
I'm not bashing Stevens. I think he's one of the all-time greats at his position! I just don't think we're seeing hitting any worse than what we've seen in the past. And I think the hit questioned on this post should and can be compared, even if it's "apples and oranges." (I think it's more like comparing Macintosh apples to Spartans.)
One thing for sure – we are inundated with media to the extent where we see things over and over again, so it looks worse when seen (and reviewed, and discussed) in the manner we do so today.
I agree that we never saw Stevens take a run at a guy from centre ice, but this makes obvious sense. Stevens was a defenseman, and defensemen rarely (if ever) forecheck in this manner.
Stevens' best hits came when a forward was entering the defensive zone, and he made them pay, especially when their head was down. Just ask Lindros and Kariya! |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 09/14/2010 : 13:44:31
Ok, I'll take the bait.
Here is a little something about Scott Stevens:
1635 games played (5th most all time)
2785 PIMs (14th all time)
Here is the kicker.
4 Total minor penalties for elbowing. Pretty low when "there were many occasions when he lifted his elbow to deliver a punishing blow." I can't believe that refs missed that call for nearly 20 years on Steven's if he was so notorious for it.
To compare this hit to a Scott Steven's hit is like comparing apple or oranges. Most of Steven's most devistating hits were guys coming across the blue line with their head down. 9 our of 10 Steven's open ice hits were impactful as the offensive players was at a high speed (a la Lindros and Kariya).
I don't recall ever seeing Steven's stake in from centre ice at top speed and pile into a player not moving behind the net. Maybe I am wrong in that, but I sure don't remember it.
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| Guest4178 |
Posted - 09/14/2010 : 13:26:34
I really enjoyed this post, along with the responses, which go back nearly a year.
I happened to watch a TSN special last night on the top ten hitters (bodycheckers) of all time. When watching some (indeed most) of the hits, it's hard not to compare these hits to the Michael Liambas hit, and determine that the Liambas hit on Ben Fanelli was no worse than a lot of hitting which has taken place in the NHL, without any significant consequences issued to the hitters.
Scott Stevens was selected by TSN as the all-time best bodychecker, and watching his hits today, you would have many fans (especially and including many writers in this forum) calling for his head.
His hits on Eric Lindros and Paul Kariya were predatory, and while Stevens usually went shoulder to shoulder on his opponents, there were many occasions when he lifted his elbow to deliver a punishing blow.
That was then, and this is now I suppose, but most hockey fans would put Scott Stevens on a pedestal as one of the best defensive defensemen of all time. (Certainly not a cheap-shot artist.) No one would be suggesting that we ban him for a year (or for life), but if you look at a number of his most violent bodychecks (and they were violent – he might not admit it, but he was looking to hurt people on the ice), the Liambas hit would be an ordinary day in the life of Scott Stevens. And how many games did Scott Stevens miss due to suspensions?
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| n/a |
Posted - 09/14/2010 : 05:45:18
Guest 7924 - yeah, I heard Tavares was a real diver in junior - but I really haven't seen a lot of that in the NHL so far. Moot point - an illegal hit is an illegal hit, doesn't matter on who it was or the history. Illegal is illegal, end of story. Period.
So you are saying I don't know jack about the game because I hold the opinion it was a real dirty hit . . . well, say good -bye to your credibility. You have now registered your opinion as totally invalid, congratulations!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Guest7924 |
Posted - 09/14/2010 : 05:38:47
All you guys who say this was a real dirty hit and the guy should be banned from Hockey don't know jack about the game, especially at this level. The only thing that can really be said about this hit was the actual speed Liambas carried into the hit. Ben Fanelli turedn at the very last second to fire the puck around the opposite side once he saw Liambas coming in hard.
I really don't understand how the ,ajority of you can't see that...
This hit happens a dozen times each night. In todays game you see dmen and forwards constatntly turning their back to the checker to protect the puck. this has resulted in an increase in hits from behind. I feel that the guy turning should be held accountable as well for his poor decsion making.
Also, I hate hearing John Tavares name mention in any dirty plays against him. That little punk deserved all the abuse he got. I watched over 40 live General games when he was in town and I've never seen a dirtier player. Behind the play when the refs weren't looking...opposing players had better keep their heads up. Spearing guys in the back of the legs, sticks up between the legs, spears to the gut. Then when he'd get punched and pushed back he'd drop like a soccer player a draw a penalty. Reminded me of Avery. |
| polishexpress |
Posted - 09/13/2010 : 21:21:29
But see, Slozo, that's how ingrained the wrong mentality is that we find it acceptable to hit a player to take him out of the play (not take him out, just knock him off balance, for example...) and that is when hits can easily escalate.
That's where the line gets hazy for me. I love watching the big hits(a la scott stevens), and it is satisfying to make someone go flying and wipe the ice with their butt.
Yet, when I play with friends, I could never think of hitting them with any sort of force that could injure them- but if pros had that attitude, we'd be watching shinny. |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 09/13/2010 : 11:10:23
Did I hear somewhere that the Leafs are giving this kid a shot?
Can't see the forest for the trees? BUY A CHAINSAW !! |
| n/a |
Posted - 09/13/2010 : 10:46:08
Polishexpress - very thoughful comments, thanks.
It is a difficult issue, because although I may have helped clarify your thoughts on the issue, the more I think about it sometimes, the muddier the waters become for me.
I wonder to myself whether players like Phaneuf are just a slightly more mature (and obviously way more skilled) evolution of Liambas. I like Phaneuf and the way he plays most of the time, but he certainly has made many "non hockey play" hits, especially in centre ice. Conversely, a player who I always held in the highest regard as one of the best D-men of all time, Scott Stevens, he always made a hockey play, even in his best and biggest hits - at the blueline, or on a player with the puck on the rush.
It's all a very grey area.
You make very good points about the need for any change to start at a grassroots level, for the mentality to change from needing "a big hit", to trying to "seperate the player from the puck" or to "take him out of a scoring play".
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| polishexpress |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 15:39:34
It's definitely a difficult topic, and rethinking my posts it's kind of difficult to see where I stand.
I see why you think Liambas shouldn't be in hockey. And whether Downie has/hasn't learned his lesson is another topic.
Yet, I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed multiple chances for hits that are encouraged by the hockey world.
Now, I'm not making a blanket statement that all coaches and leagues promote dirty hits, but they sure haven't taken clear steps to eliminate players like Liambas, Downie etc.
Instituting rules doesn't count, they would need to overhaul the whole mentality of why a check should be applied to a player.
Nowadays, checking is more than simply trying to get the puck back. It used in hockey to instigate, to exact revenge, to intimidate, and in professional leagues it entertains, so it brings in revenue.
Until you change the attitude towards checking, beginning at the grassroots level, back to the original purpose - separating an opposing player from possession of the puck - then players like Liambas will continue to exist and develop.
For that reason, I think Liambas could be given another chance, with proper training, especially mentally and psychologically.
One thing you have made clear, though slozo, and that is what I ignored in previous posts, is that Liambas is not publicly showing any signs of true remorse or comprehension of the results of his style of play.
Thanks for your thoughts slozo, they have helped me clarify my own. |
| n/a |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 11:57:36
I'm confused Polishexpress . . . you coming around to seeing these third, fourth and fifth chances as condoning and promoting reckless and extremely dangerous behaviour?
Because you mention Steve Downie, as if that might be an example of a guy who has "learned his lesson", and I would totally disagree with that. At the very least, however, Downie has good hockey skill at the NHL level. But he will seriously hurt someone some day.
Liambas has NEVER had NHL skills, except for the potential to be an NHL level "pest" or "goon" with below average OHL skills.
You say Liambas should be and is accountable for his own actions, but he isn't. Rather, the hockey society around him has ignored their moral responsibility to the game, IMHO.
Liambas on Tavares back in the day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow7csCcRSKs&feature=related
Liambas takes a run and misses, fortunately for the Owen Sound player:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd5doNDBZ0c&feature=related
Liambas has been good at one thing in his career, and you can search it out on youtube for tonnes more: taking players out.
He has no place in the game of hockey for me.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| polishexpress |
Posted - 09/11/2010 : 22:55:12
Okay, I guess it's nice that Liambas gets a 3rd chance.
Remember the brutal hits that Steve Downie had delivered, especially the hit on McAmmond in preseason? Yet, he's still playing and slowly becoming more mature.
I'm thinking that maybe Liambas can change, but I agree, Burke is giving him a chance simply because of his wreckless hits.
Although Liambas should be and is accountable for his actions, he is doubtless been inculcated for years to compete, and view the opposition as enemies.
We are now seeing the fruits of labor of a society that emphasizes selfishness, greed, and a love of violence.
Burke hiring Liambas is clear evidence that he promotes the "do anything to win" mentality.
A sad testament to the state of affairs in competitive sports. |
| n/a |
Posted - 09/11/2010 : 21:32:04
polishexpress - WHY, exactly, is it "nice" that Liambas gets a "second chance" ?
(I would argue here that it is, in fact, his third chance after the big incident, but overall he's had a good dozen "second chances" with his many suspensions)
He gets suspended over and over and over again for being a goon who runs at players, slew foots, cross checks from behind . . . and yet, he is according to Burke and many others a "good kid".
The logic is brutal.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 09/11/2010 : 04:03:57
quote:
Originally posted by polishexpress
I think it's nice that Liambas is getting a second chance.
What really annoys me is that Burke was willing to take him on last year, which Liambas himself turned down, saying it was the wrong time, on an interview posted on TSN.ca.
Great that Liambas gets a chance, but I don't like why. It seems that he is getting the chance to play for Burke because of his (bad) reputation.
P.S.: Alex, I even bolded my periods for you, and, in fact, you are the closest this forum has to grammar police.
I believe you have called my grammer out before Polishexpress, maybe you can be Alex's deputy?  Their should be a grammer and spell check option in these boxes. I would and could certainly use it. LOL
Pasty |
| polishexpress |
Posted - 09/10/2010 : 22:46:44
I think it's nice that Liambas is getting a second chance.
What really annoys me is that Burke was willing to take him on last year, which Liambas himself turned down, saying it was the wrong time, on an interview posted on TSN.ca.
Great that Liambas gets a chance, but I don't like why. It seems that he is getting the chance to play for Burke because of his (bad) reputation.
P.S.: Alex, I even bolded my periods for you, and, in fact, you are the closest this forum has to grammar police. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 09/09/2010 : 08:55:51
quote:
Originally posted by whereismykovalchuk
kay i missed out on this but the hit wasnt that dirty if you consider that players need to protect themselves as well it is that 16 year old kids fault he is in the hospital because he wasnt wearing his helmet properly look at the video on mute, it will show you that im right, and his skull hits a metal partition rinks with that are not meant for peewee kids to play on nevermind an OHL team i saw the hit my thought was they really need to fix that before suspending a player for making the right play
and good on Brian Burke for giving a young man an opportunity to redeem himself after an unfortunate event
Here, i've got a few extra periods for you .................................................................................................. I try to save these up for those who need some. Clearly, you do. 
All kidding aside, a post is far more easy to read and comprehend if there's a little punctuation in it. I'm by no means the grammar police, but that post was tough to stomach. |
| n/a |
Posted - 09/09/2010 : 07:52:45
Yeah, I saw that Burke gave him a chance . . . not happy at all about that, and I am not sure why Burke would put himself out there by making this statement.
Because I'll tell you, it's not a hockey move - Liambas will never make it to the NHL. He isn't good enough. So I am dumfounded as to why Burke is making this political statement . . . my only guess is that he has some connection to Liambas or his family/friends? It only makes sense if Burke is doing it out of loyalty, or to make some political statement on what he thinks are legal hits/plays.
I hope it gives some other goon the opportunity to take a run at Liambas, though. Is that wrong?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 09/09/2010 : 03:07:03
i was wondering why this thread was brought back oh well he'll maybe get suspended from the marlies this year at best... east coast league is where he will end up
Pasty |
| whereismykovalchuk |
Posted - 09/08/2010 : 15:14:35
kay i missed out on this but the hit wasnt that dirty if you consider that players need to protect themselves as well it is that 16 year old kids fault he is in the hospital because he wasnt wearing his helmet properly look at the video on mute, it will show you that im right, and his skull hits a metal partition rinks with that are not meant for peewee kids to play on nevermind an OHL team i saw the hit my thought was they really need to fix that before suspending a player for making the right play
and good on Brian Burke for giving a young man an opportunity to redeem himself after an unfortunate event |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 09/08/2010 : 14:35:03
I cannot say just how disappointed I am with this. Not only that this career killing idiot got an invite to the Leafs but they also pursued him last year while he was suspended in his minor pro league as well.
I lost a little respect for Burke when he states that the hit on Fanelli was a good hit gone horribly wrong. Shake your head Burke. Won't it be great when this idiot runs Kessel during Leafs camp. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 09/08/2010 : 11:01:54
Awesome! Leaf's fans rejoice, Burke's finally found his frontline center!
Oh wait, Liambas is a winger.......oh well, back to the drawing board. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 09/08/2010 : 09:07:22
Did anyone else think this thread would be brought back from the dead?? I didn't.
Guess which moron GM in the NHL is actually giving the Lambias kid a shot in the pro's?? Not only that, guess what GM made the statement
"He's an honours student. Everyone that's ever played with him raves about his character."
If you guessed Brian Burke, you are correct.
http://sports.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=25491325 |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 13:30:50
Glad the kid is ok but there's nothing to forgive yep he was going fast yep it a boarding penalty maybe he should look to forgiving the coach that thought he was ready to play with kids twice his size in that leage or maybe to forgiving himself for having his chin strap so loose it looked like a necklace. Liambas doesn't take another stride from before the top of the circle and doesnt leave his feet. Its a crime that david branch felt it necessarry to end 2 careers over this and it makes the OHL look like a mickey mouse second rate european league. |
| Guest2120 |
Posted - 11/14/2009 : 16:43:41
Fanelli gave an interview on the HNIC pregame show, anyone catch it?
He refused to give an opinion on the hit itself, said he doesn't remember it, but would look to forgiving Lambias "some time in the future."
More importantly, he appears poised to make a full recovery, including the possibility of a return to hockey. |
| M-y-K-E-A-l |
Posted - 11/14/2009 : 14:40:36
What i think made it alot worse is that the defense's helmet flew off and he didn't get much support, his head slammed into the glass then the ice |
| M-y-K-E-A-l |
Posted - 11/14/2009 : 14:35:58
I personally like the hit, maybe a little bit excessive, but i mean it is hockey what do you expect, he's going in to forecheck. I fell kinda bad for the guy, I mean just think if it was you that made the hit.... |
| Guest6362 |
Posted - 11/13/2009 : 01:40:31
This was simply an unfortunate end result of a hit. There was no charge, his feet weren't moving, stick was down, elbow down. It was just unfortunate that the kid's head hit the partition and broke his helmet. If there is no injury and the kid pops back up, there is no penalty. As far as asking Liambis to slow down, you have not ever played the game. You cannot ask a player to back off, it simply isn't done, if you play, play hard. Sometimes injuries happen. I hope the kid makes a full recovery. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 11/13/2009 : 00:29:21
quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
First Post in a very long time!!!!
In regards to the McCarthur hit, I don't think it was that intentional. McCarthur isn't that type of a player and after the play you could tell how terrible the young man felt. Reddox had a step on McCarthur and he just tried to catch up but hit him accidentally and unfortunately Reddox went into the boards head first.
Now to the main discussion of this topic, I didn't read every message but I want to say something that came into my head as soon as I saw this video.
#1) Liambas hit him dirty, no argue about that. He also hit him with a forearm which is not a safe and clean way to hit your opponent. People say he was head hunting for the big hit, I disagree. He's obviously a player that plays with lots of intensity and he was in on the forecheck as fast as he could and he did what the first person in on the forecheck is suppose to do and that is to finish your check.
#2) Otters left himself out to dry, you NEVER turn your back to the play especially when you got a guy skating towards you AND when you're that close to the boards. You're just asking to get hurt! That's the problem now with these young players, me being one of them, we feel we won't get hurt if we turn our back to the play with all the equipment we have. If you go watch Hockey from the '70's they never turned their back to the play because they knew they would get hit and have a very high chance of getting hurt.
If Otters wouldn't have turned his back to the play everyone would be saying it was a nice hit but since he turned his back to the play he's in a hospital right now. I'd like to see anyone capable of going in on the forecheck at that speed and in a matter of less than a second avoid hitting the guy. Liambas had NO time to react and change what he was doing.
I hope Otters will recover safely and be playing again soon.
PainTrain is back to Pickuphockey, woo!
When the going gets tough....the tough get going!
PainTrain.....Just curious, are you then saying that because he hit him with the forearm, it was dirty? Cuz, i have to say, i've seen many differnt clips of this hit now and have yet to see any that show him using his forearm. By that, i mean, it's definitely not sticking out like a blatant elbow. Sure, his forearm hits him, and likely first, but what the heck is a guy supposed to do with that arm when he's throwing a hit??? His arm doesn't leave his side till after impact and if you play hockey as you say you do, i'm sure you'd agree, you have no other choice. To me, his arm clearly is at his side like it would be during any clean check.
Now calling it clean is another topic. I'm not gonna get into that as that's what this entire 3 page thread is about. I recommend reading thru it. First off, "Otter" as you called him, is actually Ben Fanelli of the Kitchener Rangers and the guy who hit him is Michael Liambas of the Erie Otters. To summarize, most, i believe, agree, the arm wasn't up, he didn't leave his feet, he wasn't head hunting, Fanelli turned as part of the hockey play he made whether right or wrong BUT Liambas was going far too fast to make this an overall good clean hockey hit.
My apologies to the rest of you if my summary doesn't fit what your feelings are but that's kinda the last taste i got from most comments? |
| PainTrain |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 16:49:40
First Post in a very long time!!!!
In regards to the McCarthur hit, I don't think it was that intentional. McCarthur isn't that type of a player and after the play you could tell how terrible the young man felt. Reddox had a step on McCarthur and he just tried to catch up but hit him accidentally and unfortunately Reddox went into the boards head first.
Now to the main discussion of this topic, I didn't read every message but I want to say something that came into my head as soon as I saw this video.
#1) Liambas hit him dirty, no argue about that. He also hit him with a forearm which is not a safe and clean way to hit your opponent. People say he was head hunting for the big hit, I disagree. He's obviously a player that plays with lots of intensity and he was in on the forecheck as fast as he could and he did what the first person in on the forecheck is suppose to do and that is to finish your check.
#2) Otters left himself out to dry, you NEVER turn your back to the play especially when you got a guy skating towards you AND when you're that close to the boards. You're just asking to get hurt! That's the problem now with these young players, me being one of them, we feel we won't get hurt if we turn our back to the play with all the equipment we have. If you go watch Hockey from the '70's they never turned their back to the play because they knew they would get hit and have a very high chance of getting hurt.
If Otters wouldn't have turned his back to the play everyone would be saying it was a nice hit but since he turned his back to the play he's in a hospital right now. I'd like to see anyone capable of going in on the forecheck at that speed and in a matter of less than a second avoid hitting the guy. Liambas had NO time to react and change what he was doing.
I hope Otters will recover safely and be playing again soon.
PainTrain is back to Pickuphockey, woo!
When the going gets tough....the tough get going! |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 13:18:48
I know you didn't say Liambas had intended from center to hit Fanelli, but some seem to word their arguments that way, no you. It's really a moot point though, as it would be almost impossible as he wouldn't know if there was a guy to hit or not at that point?
As for last nights hit, it was Liam Reddox who got nailed. At first, when i saw the hit (live) i thought it was more of a missed shoulder to shoulder hit. However, i just found this link that makes it look worse! At the 46sec mark, the hit looks very accidental, however at the 58 sec mark, we see a different view and you clearly see him give Reddox a little shove with his right glove/forearm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qPWvGt7aLk
I give him credit for "checking on him" as you said. Strudwick came in looking for retribution but i think realized this was not something McArthur intended to do and prob saw his reaction and calmed down. Good of the officials to get in there right away and as well for the rest of the Oilers to not make matters worse! |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 12:25:08
I don't recall saying the guy intended on laying the hit at centre ice. I was saying that someone skating in hard from centre is going way to fast to lay a hit. It's a dangerous play, regardless of it being legal or not.
Completely agree that guys need to start showing more respect. I also think that starting in Grass Roots hockey is the way to fix it long term. Coaches should coach their kids to finish their checks, but they should also be coaching the dangers of hitting and the difference between finishing a check and a dangerous hit.
I did see the Buffalo game last night. Dangerous to say the least. The Oiler player was in a vulnerable position and the Buffalo guy pushed him from behind into the boards. You also see the Buffalo player very quickly put his glove on the Oiler's back, kind of checking on him?? I don't think it was intentional at all, but still very dangerous. I believe the guy got a 5 for boarding and a game misconduct. Proper call, dangerous play, just another example. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 11:29:01
Beans, thanks for the link. While it does show Liambas cruising in from center, it still can't be said that his intent was the hit at that point. I'm not saying that's what you're saying, but some are. He was obviously charging in on the forecheck and i will agree, he's gotta take some responsibility when his plan changes from chase the puck / forecheck, to throwing a body check.
As for the shoulder/head/back hit, i've always agreed that it was shoulder to shoulder, albeit, still sorta from behind as Fanelli's motion of playing the puck does in fact expose his back to some degree. I guess we'll never really know how bad the hit may have been had Fanelli made a different play?
I apologize if what i said seemed to imply you wanting to take hitting out of hockey. I was only trying to make a point. I'd say, and i think we both agree, in a perfect world we'd see hard hitting, with no injuries. I know what you're saying with the hitting having changed and seemingly more guys headhunting but i find it's kinda like the game itself. It too has changed. Guys are bigger, equipment is larger AND harder and the guys move faster. It all results in a more dangerous game. Like i said, i do agree, guys have to start showing more respect AND the league needs to make a few changes to help with the safety. Hopefully with the latest news out of the GMs meetings, things are about to change?
By the way, you or anyone see that hit last night in the Sabres/Oilers game? McArthur of the Sabres took out someone with a questionable hit? Didn't see who it was, but he was down for a bit and needed help leaving the ice. I'm guessing you, as an Oiler fan, must have seen it and know who it was? What did you think?
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| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 09:50:29
Alex, because I think your awesome and you asked for it, here is the link that shows the kid start skating at the red line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TdTnNSEhlE
If you watch the link, you will see #24 on the bottom left corner of the screen and he starts pumping in the dump in. He flashes out of the screen for a second and then reappear. His legs don't stop pumping until he gets to the goal line.
If you also watch the slo mo portion (at the 0:42 mark) it looks like the hit is closer to shoulder to shoulder than it is from behind. The kid did turn his back and put himself in a vulnerable position, but the hit itself was not to the back. It was to the shoulder and his head hit the boards.
And just to clear something up, I love hitting in hockey. It is a HUGE part of the game and it's vitally important. I never once said I wanted hitting out of the game. What I have always said is that somewhere along the line, the body check became no longer a play to separate the man from the puck. It is now a play to separate a man's head from the rest of his body.
The later type of hit has ZERO place in hockey. The best hits are the ones where both players skate away. And there is really no difference in the play nor to the 'humiliation factor' if a player is on the a$$ on the ice from a really hard hit or a less aggressive hit. One players is still picking himself off the ice.
The key point to that is he is picking HIMSELF of the ice. It's not and EMT picking him up and putting him on a stretcher. (Or in Colorado's case, a spine board slid accross the ice. Did anyone else see that when Tucker got that concussion?? I thought that was weird.) |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 03:49:23
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4804
Why should he slow down? His job is to hit people as hard as he can, and he did just that. If he slows down he might as well not play hockey. If Fanelli hadn't turned his back then the only time we would be talking about this hit would be on the hits of the week.
You obviously have not read the other posts here. The object of the game is to score goals, win games. You are allowed to check in this game to accomplish those goals. You are not allowed to try and hurt some one.
Also Liambas job is not to "hit is hard as he can". It is to forecheck and cause puck turnovers. His job is not to hurt people doing so! He can do his job a full speed using common sense instead of stupidity.
Read other posts here, and you will get the point. |
| Guest6003 |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 21:24:23
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4804
Why should he slow down? His job is to hit people as hard as he can, and he did just that. If he slows down he might as well not play hockey. If Fanelli hadn't turned his back then the only time we would be talking about this hit would be on the hits of the week.
so somebody doesnt get killed the hitter or the hittee |
| Guest4804 |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 19:27:11
Why should he slow down? His job is to hit people as hard as he can, and he did just that. If he slows down he might as well not play hockey. If Fanelli hadn't turned his back then the only time we would be talking about this hit would be on the hits of the week. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 18:02:59
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2120
Boo to this topic. I'm tired of debating this hit.
For all future NHL suspensions, please refer to the following chart:
http://www.downgoesbrown.com/2009/11/nhl-suspensions.html
Great link! I think you're on to something! |
| sharksfan44 |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 18:02:39
Tbar, a hit at full speed in the neutral zone is different than one on the forecheck. When ur going full speed and someone makes a bad play, and u hit the guy, there is almost no time to react its a bang bang play. u even said it urself, "Now lets say your going threw the nutreal zone and at full speed trying to get in position and all a sudden the puck carrier makes a bad pass to one of his teammates and you hit this player immediatly." key word: immediatley. there is almost no time to react. with this hit, fanelli has control of the puck for 2 seconds b4 he gets hit, IMO liambis have slowed down to prevent this hit from being even more dangerous, which he didnt |
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