| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| BizzerB |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 05:10:19
So right now Canada has 14 of the top 20 point getters, and 6 of the top 10 in D, not to mention who we have between the pipes. I know Canada is the best nation of hockey, but are we just that much on another level then the rest of the world? or, is it the extra push they're giving this year to be on the Olympic squad...on home ice (which will most likely be the last time in these guys career) ?? |
| 31 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/28/2009 : 15:00:55
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by umteman
"Again, because you or I don't live in or see the Finnish, Swedish, or Russian professional leagues does not mean that the quality of the players is immediately sub-par."
I suspect that the quality of the players is probably not sub-par, evidenced by the number of quality players from those countries who haved played in the NHL. I am left wondering why in this age of satellite television we don't see the professional leagues in those countries. I know that I for one would like to.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"
Simple economics. How many advertisers are going to pay for commercial time for a game between Omsk and Ufa that airs at 2am on a Wednesday???
Live? Never. However, It would be nice to have even a weekly show that would be gear specifically towards non-North American leagues. However, as long as people want to know what Sindey Crosby's favorite movie is and where Ovechkin goes for Donairs, the NHL will always dominate 100% of the TV market.
I mean, there are various junior and pro leagues in North Amercia that get zero coverage.
Not sure about the WHL or QMJHL but the OHL and AHL get decent air time in Ontario nothing compared to the NHL but its'not hard to find an OHL game on Rogers or Sportsnet and most Marlie games are on Leafs TV or Sportsnet. And if the NHL has trouble maintaining fans in the USA I can't see many AHL, ECHL or USJHL games being aired down there.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/28/2009 : 14:43:22
Ya those Miracle on Ice guys didn't have any heart neither did the Swedes who skated Canada to a tie in the gold medal game in 94 through a 20 minute overtime and beat them in a shoot out.
Alot of the issue is a numbers game, Finland's pop = 5.2 million, Slovakia's pop = 5 million, Czech Republic = 10 million, Sweeden 9.2 million. Compare that with Canada at 34 million and we have at least a three fold increase in players to draw from assuming playing levels are equal among all three nations. I would guess that the percentage of Canada's population that play hockey is much higher than any of these nations. This is the problem with the USA who have a population of 310 million the amount of youth hockey and development programs is mainly limited to the northern states and is nowhere nerar as structurally refined as the system Hockey Canada employs. The US National development team has taken large strides but the intrest in the game south of the border limits its effectiveness. Where as with Russia's population of 142 million the problem is mainly economic but the higher population is what allows them to be arguably the second most consistent nation in international play.
So it's not that Canadian's are magically more talented or innately better players its that the emphasis on youth development in our country means that high level players are funnelled into the appropriate systems at an early age and are able to develop their full potential.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Guest5396 |
Posted - 11/28/2009 : 10:34:36
ANYONE AND EVERYONE CAN ARGUE ALL DAY LONG ON THIS TOPIC. ONE FACT STILL REMAINS. HEART IS WHAT ANY WINNING CANADIAN TEAM HAS HAD OVER EVERY OTHER COUNTRY. CALL IT ARROGANCE BUT ITS A FACT. TALENT ONLY TAKES ANYONE SO FAR. HEART IS THE DIFFERENCE. EITHER TEAM CANADA 1 OR TEAM CANADA TEAM 2 WOULD BE COMPETITIVE AT ANY LEVEL ANYWHERE BECAUSE OF THAT SIMPLE FACT. POINT BLANK....
JUST MY OPINION. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/28/2009 : 08:57:11
quote:
Originally posted by umteman
"Again, because you or I don't live in or see the Finnish, Swedish, or Russian professional leagues does not mean that the quality of the players is immediately sub-par."
I suspect that the quality of the players is probably not sub-par, evidenced by the number of quality players from those countries who haved played in the NHL. I am left wondering why in this age of satellite television we don't see the professional leagues in those countries. I know that I for one would like to.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"
Simple economics. How many advertisers are going to pay for commercial time for a game between Omsk and Ufa that airs at 2am on a Wednesday???
Live? Never. However, It would be nice to have even a weekly show that would be gear specifically towards non-North American leagues. However, as long as people want to know what Sindey Crosby's favorite movie is and where Ovechkin goes for Donairs, the NHL will always dominate 100% of the TV market.
I mean, there are various junior and pro leagues in North Amercia that get zero coverage. |
| umteman |
Posted - 11/28/2009 : 07:05:17
"Again, because you or I don't live in or see the Finnish, Swedish, or Russian professional leagues does not mean that the quality of the players is immediately sub-par."
I suspect that the quality of the players is probably not sub-par, evidenced by the number of quality players from those countries who haved played in the NHL. I am left wondering why in this age of satellite television we don't see the professional leagues in those countries. I know that I for one would like to.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| Guest2183 |
Posted - 11/28/2009 : 03:21:19
It's a tournament of single game competitions. Anything can happen. Sure Canada could ice another couple of competitive teams but so could any of the other big hockey countries; it wouldn't matter if they weren't all NHL caliber. Latvia proved in Torino that a team of NHL skaters is not necessary to succeed at the international level.
That said, Canada's "B" team would have the best chance of all the B teams, and they could possibly even ice a "C" team.
So yes, I agree that Canada is undoubtably the best hockey nation in the world in terms of overall skill. However, in the context of these tournaments, I don't think that means very much, even if every country was to ice multiple teams.
The fact is in a single game competition inferior teams will sometimes win. If Canada comes out flat, you can expect them to struggle against teams like Norway and Germany. |
| irvine |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 20:38:35
How could any body say that if Canada entered two teams (1 & 2) we'll call them be expected to medal?
We currently take out top players as it is now, and do not always medal. International Hockey is getting far more diverse and tough. It's not like it once was. We have 7 powerhouse teams, and other teams that are getting better with each year.
If Canada entered two teams, and all other Countries entered their normal one team, we can likely expect (if we split them evenly, without having the top players on Squad A and then a B squad of the second best group,) neither team would medal. If we split them as an A Squad (top group of Canadian players,) and a B squad (the group that could not make Squad A) then we'd still have the same chances we normally do with Squad A. But B Squad, would likely do no better than 8th.
(Hopefully this makes some sense, i'm pretty tired. I've been up and working for 24+ hours now. lol)
Irvine |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 19:59:20
No, Canada's B team would not be a favorite to be a medal.
Seriously, how could they?? You have 6 hockey superpowers (Canada, Russia, Finland, Sweden, the US, and the Czech Republic).
Canada's "B" team would NOT be a favorite against any of these countries A teams.
I have also said(and others have provided examples such as the World Championship and Spengler Cup) that Canada's B team does not stand head and shoulders against other Countries B teams.
No, Russia's B team or Sweden's B team would not be favored to win a medal, but neither would Canada's B team. Competative, definately. Favorite??
C'mon. |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 15:51:58
Sorry missed the part on your post where you said canada's 2nd and 3 rd teams would be on the level of other nations 2nd and 3rd teams. Just meant the 1st sentence I agree with (The arguement then evolved into a justification that Canada is the best team as they could ice a 2nd and 3rd competative team in the Olympics.)
Bean's the question remains if Russia or Sweden ice'd a B team would they be favoured to win a medal? That is the question. I say Canada's B team would be favoured to make the medal rounds. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 13:01:22
So we all agree??
Canada is ONE of the best teams in the world.
and
Canada(along with the other superpowers) could more than likely ice more than one competative team Internationally.
Ok. |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 12:47:34
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
The arguement is not what league is best or if players from one league could beat or compete with another league.
The original arguement was "Is Canada head and shoulders above the other hockey nations??"
As a fan, yes, Canada is the best.
As a realist and logically speaking, Canada is in a group of the best, but is not head and shoulders above any other team..
The arguement then evolved into a justification that Canada is the best team as they could ice a 2nd and 3rd competative team in the Olympics. I agree they could, but those teams also would not be head and shoulders above the other hockey superpower's 2nd or 3rd team.
Let's not change this into the NHL vs the other leagues because that's not what this is about.
thats all I was saying |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 11:53:13
The arguement is not what league is best or if players from one league could beat or compete with another league.
The original arguement was "Is Canada head and shoulders above the other hockey nations??"
As a fan, yes, Canada is the best.
As a realist and logically speaking, Canada is in a group of the best, but is not head and shoulders above any other team..
The arguement then evolved into a justification that Canada is the best team as they could ice a 2nd and 3rd competative team in the Olympics. I agree they could, but those teams also would not be head and shoulders above the other hockey superpower's 2nd or 3rd team.
Let's not change this into the NHL vs the other leagues because that's not what this is about. |
| Guest7752 |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 11:38:13
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4813
Look at Fabian Brunnstrom, he was the best player playing in the Swedish league 2 years ago and he can't cut it in the NHL, What does that tell you? And Jiri Hudler, he is a point a game player over there, as is Branko Radivojevic and he was barley a 4th liner over here. Nikita Filatov already has 6 points in 3 games over there that's as many points as he had in 21 career NHL games. Face it the NHL is a much better league, and it's where the majority of the best players want to play. So if the Majority of the players are Canadian then yes we have the best players in the world.
calm down stats-man... how many other leagues have you been watching in order to be able to compare to NHL and determine NHL is the best?
Who ever said we do not have the best players in the world?
All that was said, was that we do NOT have ALL the best players in the world. |
| Canucks Man |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 11:37:09
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4813
Look at Fabian Brunnstrom, he was the best player playing in the Swedish league 2 years ago and he can't cut it in the NHL, What does that tell you? And Jiri Hudler, he is a point a game player over there, as is Branko Radivojevic and he was barley a 4th liner over here. Nikita Filatov already has 6 points in 3 games over there that's as many points as he had in 21 career NHL games. Face it the NHL is a much better league, and it's where the majority of the best players want to play. So if the Majority of the players are Canadian then yes we have the best players in the world.
This was me.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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| Guest4813 |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 11:33:31
Look at Fabian Brunnstrom, he was the best player playing in the Swedish league 2 years ago and he can't cut it in the NHL, What does that tell you? And Jiri Hudler, he is a point a game player over there, as is Branko Radivojevic and he was barley a 4th liner over here. Nikita Filatov already has 6 points in 3 games over there that's as many points as he had in 21 career NHL games. Face it the NHL is a much better league, and it's where the majority of the best players want to play. So if the Majority of the players are Canadian then yes we have the best players in the world. |
| Guest7752 |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 10:51:58
This does not make any sense at all:
To the guy who questions why Canada hasn't dominated the medals in the last 5 Olympics, a single team tournament favours European teams who have enough not just NHL caliber, but top tier star players to fill out a single team roster.
If Canada has enough for two fairly good teams, then surely there is enough to make one powerful team?
How does this abundance of good players put Canada at a disadvantage when, as you say, other countries have barely enough NHL talent and top tier talent for one team?
Canadian players will have to bust their asses if they want ANY podium finish. |
| Thrasher |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 10:49:15
i disagree with the other leagues theory. When the lock out happened, the NHL players all left to go play in Europe. These Europeans let them "take over " their teams because they are the best in the world. Just because the KHL exists, doesn't mean they can compete with any team the NHL can offer. Really and honestly, the biggest name to leave the NHL to play their was probably Radulov, and he has skill, but if hes one of the top players over there, im confident the NHL is the best league in the world. The BEST players come and play here against the best.
Now to the topic question, if we were to make just one team (like Olympics), we would have our hands full with Russia, Sweden , and maybe even the USA. But i agree with the others that have said build a second team and i think that would be head and shoulders above any other team any other country could put together. Look at how hard it is too make just one team for us, we have so many skilled players.
Having said that, Canada might not be the best hockey nation.
Looking at the population of each major hockey country, Sweden has about 10 million people, but can still compete with us who have over thirty million. Perhaps their hockey programs might be better than ours? I'm a proud Canadian just like most of you, and hockey (and beer) is one thing i think we pride ourselves on, and rightly so. But we may not be as dominate as we think we are.
I Promise I didn't give her the STD, I'm not a sharing person. |
| Gusteroni |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 10:23:06
There is one tourny where Canada is not always on another level over the other countries. That tourny is the Spengler Cup. Albeit there isn't ever any current superstars on the team but some are former NHLers, some are Canadian players on European teams and there is also a mix of AHLers of loan from the NHL making the roster. Also some of the opposing teams have Canadians playing for them. I do like to watch this tourny to see some of the players we have forgotten about. The likes of Brad Isbister, Randy Robitaille, Byron Ritchie, Serge Aubin, and Dominic Pittis just to name a few. Mac T is to be the head coach this year and good on him. We lost in the final last year so let's hope we can get the gold trifecta in all three championships this year. Perhaps Cujo will be in goal like in 2007 and he will get us another Gold!!
"There are only two seasons in Canada...hockey season and not hockey season." |
| Guest3364 |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 10:07:49
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I am not saying anyone's second team would medal. I am simply arguing this statement:
Unlike Sweden, Slovakia, Finland and Russia, Canada could ice 2-3 competitive teams.
I am arguing that Finland, Russia, Finland, the US and the Czechs(who many consider the "Big 6" hockey nations including Canada) would have competative teams if they made 2, based on both NHL talent and they talent playing in other leagues around the world.
So if you were to replace a Latvia, Swizterland, Germany, or Norway with a 2nd team from ANY of the Big 6, I would strongly suggest that the 2nd line up could make the Knock Out round of 8.
And I would go further to say that if you were to somehow create a "2nd line" tourney, where each of those Big 6 iced their 22 man "next best" roster, the likelihood of Canada winning that tourney would be the same as what it currently is of winning the Olympics. They would be A favorite, but not the hands down, end all Favorite.
And ultimately, I am arguing that it's short sighted and, to me, arrogant to think that because players are not in the NHL, they are not good enough to be. The like of Yashin, Jagr, Hudler, Radulov, Forsberg(healthy), Naslund, Zherdev, Morozov, Nagy, Vborney, Fedorov, Kozlov, Zyuzin, Cajanek, Kalinin, Chistov, Straka, the other Hossa, Tverdovsky, Thorenson, Perezhogin, Zubov, Gerber, and many, many more are NHL caliber players. Not to mention the players that never have been NHL players by choice who are also NHL caliber.
Well what I am saying is Canada could ice 2 teams which would be competitive in a single top tier tournament where neither Canadian team would be #1 or #2. More like 1a and 1b and I just dont feel another country could ice 2 competitive teams in the same tournament. It is also my opinion that both teams would be favoured to place in the medal round. Dont get me wrong that is not a guaranteed Gold, but an odds favorite to medal.
To the guy who questions why Canada hasn't dominated the medals in the last 5 Olympics, a single team tournament favours European teams who have enough not just NHL caliber, but top tier star players to fill out a single team roster. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 09:57:40
quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man
Canada's Teir 2 team would beat any of those other Countries teir 2 teams hands down. Name the next best 12 Russian forwards? or Swedes or Finns or Czech? Sure the guys you named Beans could play in the NHL they are all from different countries. And I doubt you will ever here someone playing in Europe say that there league is even close to the calibre the NHL is.
You can say that because I live in Canada im biased all you want, but I no people over in Europe who could name 2 solid Canadian teams and not 2 solid teams fromt there own country.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
Are the people you know in Europe transplanted Canadians??
I am not going to go through the entire schpeal again, but it comes down to familiartiy. We are familiar with the NHL and not the other Pro leagues in the world. That makes us arrogant and opinionated towards the things we do not know. As Tiller and Guest 7752, Canada is ONE of the dominant countries in any International Competition, but not the hands down favorite.
Believe it or not, there is a hockey world outside of the NHL. |
| Guest7752 |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 06:05:58
Beans is totally correct here.
You are all basing your "knowledge" of the other countries talent from the talent you see every day on NHL.
And of course it's dominated by Canadians.
You (we) do not see much of any other talent overseas.
PLUS - the Canadian players are playing in North America, practically at home... All the other players, except US, are playing overseas, away from home.
I'm not sure if Canada would have more than 10 of the top 20 leaders in a Russian or Sweedish league.
If Canada was so dominant, how is it that in the past 5 Olympics - we won 3 medals, of which only one was gold.
In the same period, Sweeden has 2 golds while Finland and Czech have 3 medals each.
We look and sound dominant, but the same feelings are felt by other countries of their own national teams - and they have every right to do so. |
| Canucks Man |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 01:16:30
Canada's Teir 2 team would beat any of those other Countries teir 2 teams hands down. Name the next best 12 Russian forwards? or Swedes or Finns or Czech? Sure the guys you named Beans could play in the NHL they are all from different countries. And I doubt you will ever here someone playing in Europe say that there league is even close to the calibre the NHL is.
You can say that because I live in Canada im biased all you want, but I no people over in Europe who could name 2 solid Canadian teams and not 2 solid teams fromt there own country.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
|
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 16:10:22
quote:
And I would go further to say that if you were to somehow create a "2nd line" tourney, where each of those Big 6 iced their 22 man "next best" roster, the likelihood of Canada winning that tourney would be the same as what it currently is of winning the Olympics. They would be [i]A favorite, but not the hands down, end all Favorite.
A second line tournament is essentially what the world championship is every year and its about as close in competition as the olympics will be. And to clarify so its not misconstrued the olympics will showcase higher talent than the WC but the competition between each team will be similar.
Also take a look at Canada's recent dominace at the World Juniors and int he current Subway Super Series.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 15:48:24
I am not saying anyone's second team would medal. I am simply arguing this statement:
Unlike Sweden, Slovakia, Finland and Russia, Canada could ice 2-3 competitive teams.
I am arguing that Finland, Russia, Finland, the US and the Czechs(who many consider the "Big 6" hockey nations including Canada) would have competative teams if they made 2, based on both NHL talent and they talent playing in other leagues around the world.
So if you were to replace a Latvia, Swizterland, Germany, or Norway with a 2nd team from ANY of the Big 6, I would strongly suggest that the 2nd line up could make the Knock Out round of 8.
And I would go further to say that if you were to somehow create a "2nd line" tourney, where each of those Big 6 iced their 22 man "next best" roster, the likelihood of Canada winning that tourney would be the same as what it currently is of winning the Olympics. They would be A favorite, but not the hands down, end all Favorite.
And ultimately, I am arguing that it's short sighted and, to me, arrogant to think that because players are not in the NHL, they are not good enough to be. The like of Yashin, Jagr, Hudler, Radulov, Forsberg(healthy), Naslund, Zherdev, Morozov, Nagy, Vborney, Fedorov, Kozlov, Zyuzin, Cajanek, Kalinin, Chistov, Straka, the other Hossa, Tverdovsky, Thorenson, Perezhogin, Zubov, Gerber, and many, many more are NHL caliber players. Not to mention the players that never have been NHL players by choice who are also NHL caliber.
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| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 15:11:35
Beans, So you think Slovakia, Finland, Sweden and Russia could ice 2 competitive teams? By that by icing 2 teams a good possiblity that both teams would place in the medal rounds. I just want to know if that is your position. |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 14:26:41
You guys are both arguing different sides of the same coin. The familiarity with North American and specifically Canadian players is amplified by the fact that we actually care passionately enough to know about most players. That being said the level of player development is unmatched in any other country. We develop players unlike any other nation in the world and have been recognized as such by opposing governing bodies like the swede's who reformed their junior program modelling it after Hockey Canada's. So without underestimating the other hockey nations Canada's level of talent in my opinion is unrivaled in the world.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 12:45:40
It's not realism, it's complete arrogance. Ask someone from Helsinki to name 10 Canadian defensemen??? Ask someone in Omsk to name 10 Canadian forwards??? As someone from Prague to name 5 Canadian goalies???
Again, because you or I don't live in or see the Finnish, Swedish, or Russian professional leagues does not mean that the quality of the players is immediately sub-par. The NHL players are better and there are more players in the NHL than the other leagues. I never argue that. But to say that the 2nd tier Canadian players are immediately better than those of other countries simply because you can not name those players is phenominally short sighted.
In 1972, a Canadian couldn't name a single Russian player and those guys skated stride for stride with the best Canada had.
It's not realism. It's realism as a Canadian. That's not the same realism as a Russian or a Swed who rarely get NHL coverage.
Might want to take a look at the 2006 Olympics and tell me how many players from the Swiss team were from the NHL. Then look up the score from the Swiss/Canada game. |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 12:16:53
You are correct that the Russians Swedish and others have competitive leagues to the NHL and the player pools are talented. When was the last time a goalie started for the winning team in World cup, or Olympics which did not come from the NHL. How about the last captain of an Olympic or world cup team that did not play in the NHL.
Do me a favour and name 12 top tier Swedish/Russian/Finnish Defenseman. Name 6 top tier Finnish/Swedish/Russian goalies. I could name 12-24 top tier canadian defensman easily and 6-10 top tier canadian goalie easily off the top of my head.
I know I live in canada and as such it would be easier to recognize canadian players, but again the NHL is the richest and deepest roster of international players and as such I cannot fill a second team with the player pool available. Some countries would not be able to fill the roster of only one such team with only NHL players.
I dont think its arrogant. I think its pride, and realism |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 09:45:56
Wow, is that ever short sighted. Are we forgeting that Russian has an entire hockey league as does Sweden???
I agree that Canada could field 2 competative teams, but I also think that a 2nd team from Finland, Russia, Sweden, and even the Czech Republic would also be competative. Would Canada win??? Quite likely. Would it be a walk?? Not a chance.
And if Canada's '2nd team' would be so much better than the other countries, why is it that Canada doesn't win every World Championship?? Canada has won 3 in the past 10 years. Russia has 2, the Czeck's 3, Sweden 1 and Slovakia 1. It's never a cake walk.
There are world class hockey player who do not play in the NHL that we never see. To me it's arrogant and short sided to assume that Canada is the best because we see most the Canadian players all the time and don't see the best of the other countries that are not in the NHL. |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 08:30:43
Bean's, I do agree Canada is not heads and tails above other nations with regards to Icing a single team in an international tournament. The point I think Bizzer is making is the depth of Canadian talent this year is greater than in the past. Unlike Sweden, Slovakia, Finland and Russia, Canada could ice 2-3 competitive teams.
I dont see Russia with the depth, especially in Defense and goalie depth. They may have it tough icing one team with defensive depth.
Sweden might be the closest team to ice 2 competitive teams, but even then name me 12 swedish Defenseman and 6 swedish Goalies |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 07:27:51
One also might want to think about the simple concentration. There are more Canadians in the NHL than all the other countries combined. The numbers of who is in the top 10 in scoring is comparative to these numbers.
You know what is really impressive???? 100% of the skaters from Slovenia are leading the league in scoring. That must mean that Slovenian hockey is the best hockey nation in the world!!!!!
The numbers are relative. Canada is ONE of the top 3-5 hockey nations. To say they are #1 hands down is not really resonable. I am a Canadian hockey fan so I believe they are the best. But I am not so short sided to say head and shoulders because it's just not true.
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