| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| I HATE CROSBY |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 15:26:03
Anyone who EVER cheered for pittsburgh is no different from those blinded San Fran fans who cheer for barry bonds...WHY?
People who cheer for bonds cheer for a guy who dishonors baseball...The pens fans cheer for "franchise players" mario, and sid who dishonor hockey by acting like a pair of whining , diving babies....I'm ashamed to call those guys canadian.....that's not how we play hockey. maybe in some dirty steal town trash bag city you play hockey that way, and that's why pens fans tolerate it...But You pens fans are jokes and should go watch a good field hockey game if you want to see flamers like Mario and Sid.
I HATE CROSBY |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 19:09:38
quote:
Originally posted by manninm
However, I think that I most agree with Beans and Bigshow on this one. In terms of overall value, there are many players in the league, and maybe on that team, that are more important than Sid. When it came down to crunch time, he couldn't lead his team to victory. And I'm not blaming him for that...he's 19 and has a lot of maturing to do. But you can't just blindly say that he's the best, the greatest, and the most important to his team without taking a look at the big picture. What would Sakic, or Yzerman, or Kariya, or Drury, etc etc done in the same situation? If not guided them to victory, made significantly longer strides toward doing so.
It's interesting that you picked Sakic and Yzerman. Both of those guys were criticized in the past for failure to lead their teams to the big win. Not at 19, but in their late 20's. Both those guys lost a lot of big games on great teams before they were successful.
Crosby not leading the Pens to victory, as you put it, made perfect sense this year. Before the playoffs started I said they'd be out in four or five games.
The Pens have average goaltending, weak weak weak defence, and average forwards (a couple of stars and a couple of good vets does not a championship team make).
I do not blindly follow Sid. I just see in him potential that many other people around here are not capable of seeing. Does that make me smarter than them? No, just a better judge of talent.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 19:54:38
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Sid is this: the most talented /driven in the league right now. Are there a few better players right now? Yes I would say there are. But it won't be that way much longer.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
Wow, I agree with Willus too! Scary. This is exactly what I am trying to say with all of my recent post. Although I can't say he is any more driven than others, but I do think he has the most potential talent in the league.
I think I can finally be done with this. Now, where is Chooch, I need a really good fight!! |
| tctitans |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 19:44:07
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by BigShow
Falling back on the differences between goaltenders, defencemen and skaters is weak. There is no doubt that Luongo and Brodeur did more for their teams than Sid, on the ice. Which to me sounds like they are better players.
Sorry BigShow, this part of your argument is weak. Because a player was more valuable to his particular team than another does not necessarily mean that player is better. It just means they had to rely on him more.
Ack! Where am I?! Am I in some Bizarro world here? I actually agree with Willus! 
|
| willus3 |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 19:39:08
quote:
Originally posted by BigShow
Falling back on the differences between goaltenders, defencemen and skaters is weak. There is no doubt that Luongo and Brodeur did more for their teams than Sid, on the ice. Which to me sounds like they are better players.
Sorry BigShow, this part of your argument is weak. Because a player was more valuable to his particular team than another does not necessarily mean that player is better. It just means they had to rely on him more.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| willus3 |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 19:31:24
Sid is this: the most talented /driven in the league right now. Are there a few better players right now? Yes I would say there are. But it won't be that way much longer.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| tctitans |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 18:53:45
I believe that I started out before reading this thread thinking that Crosby is a wonderful developing talent and a damn good player. I respect the guy, his talent, and what he brings to the game. However, I was of the mindset (along the lines of Beans) that he's great, but there are certainly others who I put ahead of him at this point (a la Sakic, Jagr, ..).
Now, all of a sudden. After reading all these posts. For some reason Sid leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I find myself liking him less and leaning towards my old, respectable, favorites. Tis quite funny, as this slight change of view has nothing to do with Crosby himself (he's completely innocent), but rather to a bunch of fans writing about him and heaving him up to his pedestal. This is where my natural devil's advocateness kicks in and warps my normal judgement.
Stop it! I like the kid! I think he's going to be a damn good hockey player and could certainly have a storybook career, but don't jump the gun here. Talk about his potential, his ability, and what he could possibly do. Don't start talking foolishness like he's one of the best ever, NOW!
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| PENSFAN8771 |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 18:36:32
Big Show:
I wasn't saying that Crosby is better than Luongo or Brodeur, I was saying they are not comparable. Luongo and Brodeur couldn't do what Crosby does just like Crosby can't do what they do. I wholeheartedly agree that both these goalies were more important to their teams than any skater; I've made this clear on several threads. That's not a weak excuse, just a fact, unless you would opine that Luongo could score or pass like Crosby.
You say that the media factor is important for a franchise player, but it has no bearing on him being the best or one of the best players. And since you have such a problem with Crosby's media interactions, could you please cite an example. The interviews that I've seen have typically been very reasonable and cordial. When were his comments a distraction? The media's discussion of him as a whiner has little to do with his off-ice interaction with them.
And kind of back to the original topic, but you reminded me.
The Penguins fans have been there during losing seasons, such as last year. Deep in the conference basement, they had the largest increase in attendence in the league. Sure, it was because of low attendence before the lockout and people there to see Crosby, but attendence wasn't necessarily tied to winning. However, the winning made it a hot ticket this season.
This debate has changed from who is the best to who is the most valuable, two different things. So I won't argue that point anymore.
Beans:
They would have made the playoff probably with those other players in place of Crosby, just as you say they would have without Crosby. Hence, I haven't argued the MVP qualities. I don't disagree with you. I don't think they would have been higher than fifth with those players though. With some of them they may have been a bubble team - neither of us know for sure - and it's kind of a dataless hypothetical because the others have never been observed playing on their teams. Remember success is also based on synergy with teammates. If you talk to Sid's teammates, they seem to like him and some of them improved significantly when they played him. Part of this is that the other young players on the team can relate to him and others can help him. I don't know if this would necessarily be true with the other players you've proposed on this Penguins team.
To answer your question from earlier, if he had a 50-70 point season next year he would prove to not be the best in the league in the present. The same is true for any of the other players you've proposed as being on the same level, don't you agree? Being a good player is different than having been a god player, right?
You say that maturity is based solely on experience and not age and then go on to say he has had experience because he's been in the spotlight. That spotlight was very different than the NHL spotlight, we both know that. If you say age doesn't matter and only experience with maturity, then you are denying many physiological and psychological issues that he is still going through. It does matter scientifically. If you want the science, I can talk about it, but finals are over and this is a hockey site not a biochemistry forum. Similar (though kind of inverse) effects on Sakic do make his accomplishments ths season impressive. I give credence to both young and old alike and I do think Crosby's accomplishments were significantly more impressive.
Lecavalier has not been the go to guy in every situation in TB. St. Louis has been very important. That is similar to saying that Crosby is the go to guy in every situation when we all know Staal is a better PK player or better defensively as a forward in general. Gretzky wasn't the go to guy in every situation for his teams either. This certainly is not true of Lecavalier in the present.
That's all for now. Time to drink! |
| I HATE CROSBY |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 16:11:47
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
The way Crosby plays (more so than the numbers he has put up or his age) and his love and dedication to the game lead me to believe that he is the true Next One.
You're a joke, plain and simple......I am certain that every player in the game has love and dedication......How else could they get there?
Also, I am sure that I could absolutely destroy you in playing hockey.....Stop putting yourself on a pedestal!
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 12:01:21
I agree with Manninm and Fly at the same time.
I do agree that Crosby COULD and more than likely will be the next one.
Why I say COULD is that none of the all time Greats achieved their status as all time greats after two years!! It took 5+ of being amazing.
Crosby has all the tools to do it. But it takes more than two seasons.
And Bigshow you are dead on in my opinion. There are a number of players in the league that can skate with Crosby right now. In a couple of years with some maturity and experience under his belt, I will more than likely not be able to say that. But today, Heatley, Thorton, Lecavalier, and Iginla are right there with Sakic, Jagr, a healthy Gaborik right there as well. Not like it's that shabby to be in the top 5 players in the league at anytime in a career. And yes, I admit that him being as developed as a player as he is at 19 is pretty impressive. But the fact that he is 19 does not make him the best in the league, which some weaker arguements will suggest.
Fly and Pensfans. Do you seriously think that the Penguins would have not been equally as good of a team with Igninla, Lecavalier, or Thorton as their #1 centre??
Crosby is not head and shoulders above the rest. In the top 5, but not clearly #1 in my opinion. |
| manninm |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 10:46:12
I guess for me it comes down to distinguishing between two things, productivity and overall value. Certainly, Sid was the most productive offensive player out there this year. And let's face it, the kids got gobs of talent and will hopefully have the learning capabilities to become a great overall player.
However, I think that I most agree with Beans and Bigshow on this one. In terms of overall value, there are many players in the league, and maybe on that team, that are more important than Sid. When it came down to crunch time, he couldn't lead his team to victory. And I'm not blaming him for that...he's 19 and has a lot of maturing to do. But you can't just blindly say that he's the best, the greatest, and the most important to his team without taking a look at the big picture. What would Sakic, or Yzerman, or Kariya, or Drury, etc etc done in the same situation? If not guided them to victory, made significantly longer strides toward doing so.
My hope is that Sid uses this, among other things, as situational learning experiences to strengthen his overall game. And fly4apuckguy, I agree with you, I also think he's "the next one." But being the next one doesn't automatically make you the most valuable player to a team at age 19.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden |
| andyhack |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 09:27:45
Beans - Although I ultimately disagree with you on this (and think Crosby was indeed the best player this past year*), I do sympathize with you a bit here. I think it is somewhat amusing that your point (being I think that Crosby MAY, just MAY, not have been the best player of this past year) is so so so hard for some to accept. Sort of like some so-called "insane" comments on some other threads are so so so hard for some to accept. 
Point taken Beans, there were some excellent performances by players this past year to be considered right up there with Crosby's performance. It's not such an easy choice.
* Crosby being the best player is subject to my comments about Luongo being more valuable to his team in the Hart thread |
| BigShow |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 09:10:52
Wow, some high quantity verbiage PENSFAN8771.
Winning the Art Ross is impressive, it doesn't mean Sid is the best in the league though. In years to come he will likely be remembered as such, because those that win scoring titles stick in the mind.
He didn't drag his team to the playoffs. the Pens are a decent team, with some nice depth. The team deserved their spot in the playoffs. Luongo, Brodeur, Lecavalier and St. Louis, those guys dragged their teams into the playoffs, their teams didn't belong in the playoffs.
Falling back on the differences between goaltenders, defencemen and skaters is weak. There is no doubt that Luongo and Brodeur did more for their teams than Sid, on the ice. Which to me sounds like they are better players.
A few other names have been thrown out as being better than Crosby currently - Heatley, Lecavalier, Iginla and Thornton. If this had been the last year the league was around, i would have preferred to have had any of them as my franchise player over Sid. Same for Luongo, and if i knew Brodeur would have a career year, then i would have picked him over Sid too. Heck, while we're at it, i would have rather had either of Pronger or Lidstrom as well.
Heatley - Currently he is the best goal scorer in the league. He plays his heart out every single night. He is mentally the toughest player in the league, bar none. The stuff he has gone through i wouldn't wish on anyone. And yet there he is, a juggernaut rolling through the season.
Iginla - This guy has the perfect team attitude. Whether it means scoring the big goal or dropping the gloves or challenging the team in the dressing room, he does it all. 39G and 55A in 70GP prorates to 46G and 64A if he had played the full year. Do you ever hear about him whining in the press? He gets lots of opportunities as the big gun in Calgary, but he is MAN enough to keep his trap shut and let his actions speak for him.
Lecavalier - Playing with another bright star in St.Louis makes him harder to quantify. His play away from the puck is what sets him apart. He plays hard and fast, great positioning, willing to take the hit to make the play. His PK work this year was great, too bad they don't have a goalie to showcase how good their PK was. Again MAN enough to not do his bitching in the media, despite having plenty of opportunity.
Thornton - Generally i would rather have the finisher over the playmaker, but Joe has become that good. Joe is dependable, you know exactly what you are getting. Production-wise, very similar to Crosby, but again, he doesn't feel the need to spout off to the media.
So why am i so concerned about how a player interacts with the media, if he was gonna be my franchise guy? It's simple, it is a distraction, guys like that tend to be showboats, and not team players. No matter how you cut it, hockey is a team game, no superstar can carry you through the season, or to the Cup. You MUST have depth, you must have chemistry. I've always said the key to the Red Wings cup runs was their depth. Sure they each had several future HoFs but you can't overstate how important Draper, Maltby, McCarty and Gilchrist were to the team.
Now if we're not really talking about just this year, and we're including the value these players will have in the future as well as their value right now, Sid takes a step towards the front of the line. Because of his age, i'd take him over any of the above players, except Luongo, and perhaps Lecavalier. Luongo won't need another star to take the team to the dance, just depth and secondary scoring. Lecavalier is just hitting prime, and wow has he ever hit it. But Crosby is a lot cheaper right now, and could potentially remain that way for several years to come. So in the long haul, I'd grudgingly take Sid over Vinny.
Don't get me wrong, Sid is great, i have every confidence he will be amazing, and he will win many scoring titles, and a couple MVPs. His name will be on the Cup, he will be mentioned with greats like Bossy, Savard, and Lafleur. None of that makes him the best player in the league, today.
Picking on the fans of Steeltown is a little low. I've seen games in several cities, and it is pretty much the case that fans are tied to wins. If the team is winning, or at least showing that they can win, fans will be with them. If their is a doubt as to a team's chances, the fans are off the wagon in no time, with a few exceptions - Toronto, Montreal, Detroit and the Rangers. People want to be involved in winning. Sad as it may be to purists of the game, the vast majority of people that show up to games don't really follow their team. They are just there for the feel good party. |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 07:51:03
I'm not slamming Sakic, Thornton, Luongo, Ovechkin or any of those guys. They are all great hockey players in their own right.
But here's a fact...every twenty years or so a gifted player comes along that takes the game where it hasn't been before. You know this is true. There are superstars, and then there are the guys who are beyond that. Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux...those type of guys.
I've watched all the other "Next Ones" come down the pike. Lindros, Daigle, Kariya, Thornton, Lecavalier - at one time I was led to believe each one of these guys was going to be "it".
Hall of Famers? A couple of them, yep. But none are even close to immortal status.
The way Crosby plays (more so than the numbers he has put up or his age) and his love and dedication to the game lead me to believe that he is the true Next One. You can have talent and all the hype, but if you are not dedicated, it means squat. (Chris Gratton at one time was dubbed the "Next Mark Messier, for example).
I'm not saying anyone here is a just casual fan, or did not play the game. I do not know your backgrounds. But perhaps you need to have a little more insight into the game to really see what this kid does that makes him great.
I'm not disrespecting anyone, but if you don't get that, you don't. It is a fact that some people understand the game on a different level than others. I won't apologize for that, nor should you. It's just a fact. I'm sorry if that offends you, but some people run faster than others, too. It's not shameful, it's just true.
The guys who are closest to the game - the NHL players - agree with me on this one, boys. And if you are telling me I'm wrong, then I guess I'm in good company.
I go back to my earlier statement about just how good Sidney is - I watched Gretzky at the beginning of his career night in and night out, and Sidney is a better player at this stage than Gretzky was. That doesn't mean he'll ever outscore him, but he is more tenacious, a stronger skater and equally as instinctive. Sid does lack a scoring touch, but we'll see how that develops over time.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 07:41:21
1) It's true that how he compares to other player is important. However the comparisons I speak of are your comparisons, which I don't agree with. Your comparisons make it seem like Crosby is head and shoulders above the rest, which I just don't see. He belongs in the group of elite, top 5 players. But it's not like Gretzky in the 80's or Lemieux in the 90's. He definitely has competition on the top.
2) Many people do say, "He's only 19." Well, I really don't care how old he is. He started playing pro hockey at 18. He was in the spotlight well before that. Maturity is based on experience not age.
3) Are you saying the Sakic's 100 points season at 38 isn't good?? And Colorado was a better team than people gave them credit for. They had a bad start to the year, but very nearly ran the table at the end of the year to get into the play-offs. The fact that they didn't make it had nothing to do with Sakic's leadership or production.
4. It is your opinion that Crosby played better than any other skater this year. I would put Lecavalier and Heatley ahead of him. With Iginla and Sakic right there as well. Reason being, Healtey and Lecavalier were more valuable to their team in both offensive and defensive situations. Lecavalier is the go to guy in TB in every situations. Not just offensive situations. Less than 20 points between them as well??
5. See the point above as to who I think was the best this year. As far as best player in the league. You and I have very different opinions. My opinion is a guy that has brought it consistently over a period of time. Yours is who it the best right now. Using your logic, was Cheechoo was one of the best players last year?? What does that make him this year??
6. My judgements are not based on stats alone. I use stats to back up what my opinion is. If you were to take Lecavalier and put them on the Penguins in place of Crosby, are not just as good of a team?? If Crosby was the best player in the league, it would be very easy to disagree with that statement. I am not so sure you can.
7. You can see #3 point on this. Also, I strongly believe that Pittsburgh would have been a play off team even without Crosby. More than likely fighting for 8th and not fighting for 2nd, but still a play off team. Crosby is not the only reason the Pens made it to the playoffs, but he was the leader of the group.
8. I am not comparing Joe Juneau to Crosby. All I am saying is that there are players out there than started off like gangbusters and fizzled. Not saying Crosby will do that, but it is still possible. So answer me this, if he comes out next year and has a 50-70 point season and the Pens make the playoffs but get bumped in the 1st round again, is he still the best player in the league?? I know that won't happen, but answer the question as if it did.
This is fun!! |
| PENSFAN8771 |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 21:11:28
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Just a couple of points.
PensFan, it really doesn't matter what your opinion is of Crosby compared to other players. And please, can everyone stop using his age as a crutch. Yes, I agree it is pretty amazing that he is 19. But that doesn't mean he is better TODAY than certain players.
1. It does matter how he compares to other players. It goes to the point of legitimacy of the hype.
2. His age isn't a crutch. It just leaves one to wonder how good he will be. It does affect maturity. That's a fact of developmental psychology.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
And your assessment of Joe Sakic is dead wrong in my opinion. The fact that he is still near the top of the league at 38 is amazing. More PP goals, more PK goals, more SH goals,less PIM, than Crosby. So 20 assists must make Crosby a better player than Sakic?? Sakic is a superstar not only because what he did this year, but what he always did.
3. Your application of best player leaves an unfair burden in this debate. You say that Sakic is great because of what he has done throughout his career, even though that has no bearing on how good he is today. As you say, we're talking about today.
4. If we are talking about today, only the present matters, not a long track record. Crosby played better than any other skater this year, that is the means I use to determine who is the best. Not who has been the best over the course of a period when he was not in the league, which does not apply to the present that you seem so intent on.
5. We can look back in history and discuss who was the best person in a given year without regard for their age or experience because we know that they later proved themselves. If you say Crosby will someday be the best, then he has to have shown you something to believe that and if you do believe that, then he has proven something. In 5 years, will it be able to look back and say Crosby was the best player in the past season. I think this can be done today with the performance fresh in or minds.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
What happens if Crosby hits the absolute skids for the next two or three years. Not saying it's likely, but what if he did?? Would he still be so amazing?? C'mon. The Kid has 2 years under his belt. That is not enough to tell me that he is the best. 4 years or more I can see. But what has he proven?? He can score points?? When he gets some decent players with him he can take a team to the playoffs?? That is not that special.
6. My judgment isn't just made of stats. It's also the way the puck is carried up and down the ice and the totality of Crosby's game outside of the highlights. He's a player that's fun to watch away from the puck and when he has it. Penguins fans are, in a way, lucky that Malkin, Staal, and Crosby were put on different lines because we can watch each one for their whole shift.
7. These are things that Joe Sakic was unable to do this past year and you say we are talking about the present. So I guess then he's really unimpressive.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Think about Joe Juneau. He had 70 assists and 102 points as a rooke. His 2nd year he had 72 points in 63 games. What happened then?? Nothing. 379 points in another 667 games.
8. We all know that Joe Juneau was a different player in a different time with less raw talent than Crosby. And he dropped of his second year while Crosby improved.
|
| Beans15 |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 17:47:08
Just a couple of points.
PensFan, it really doesn't matter what your opinion is of Crosby compared to other players. And please, can everyone stop using his age as a crutch. Yes, I agree it is pretty amazing that he is 19. But that doesn't mean he is better TODAY than certain players.
And your assessment of Joe Sakic is dead wrong in my opinion. The fact that he is still near the top of the league at 38 is amazing. More PP goals, more PK goals, more SH goals,less PIM, than Crosby. So 20 assists must make Crosby a better player than Sakic?? Sakic is a superstar not only because what he did this year, but what he always did.
What happens if Crosby hits the absolute skids for the next two or three years. Not saying it's likely, but what if he did?? Would he still be so amazing?? C'mon. The Kid has 2 years under his belt. That is not enough to tell me that he is the best. 4 years or more I can see. But what has he proven?? He can score points?? When he gets some decent players with him he can take a team to the playoffs?? That is not that special.
Think about Joe Juneau. He had 70 assists and 102 points as a rooke. His 2nd year he had 72 points in 63 games. What happened then?? Nothing. 379 points in another 667 games.
My point, two good seasons does not a superstar make. I have said many times: Crosby will be the best player in the league. One day, but it's not today. |
| PENSFAN8771 |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 16:56:51
quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
I hope you Penns fans out there realize that the Senators are just as young as the Penguins are, and if one team is going to emerge from this generation a dynasty it will be be them!
I realize that the Senators had an identical mean age, but that doesnt mean they were just as young. Only 8 guys on the Pens had playoof experience, compared to 15 on the Senators. Also, do the standard deviation calculations (or just look at a roster with DOBs) and you'll see that the Senators have most players closer to the mean while the Penguins have players at both extremes, way younger and way older. You're a math major, you should know better than to make that generalization. |
| I HATE CROSBY |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 16:46:17
Luongo was also traded for an up-and-coming D-man and an-up and coming goalie (anyone who says Auld is a bad goalie should just stick to watching basketball, cause you don't get hockey)......Mike Liut was a substantially worse goalie than Luongo, minus a couple really good seasons. I can't wait til Crosby doesn't live up to this hype....Last year, I bet everyone on this thing was talking about Ovi-one, now you guys slam the poor guy........And it will only be a matter of time before you do the same thing to Sid......This is a different time than the 80's folks. Every player in the league can contribute. As a result, there will be no "next one" ever, cause the rest of the teams are full of smart guys who will know how to tame a player like sid. I mean with all the video and what-not now, I'm sure the average coach will have all of Sid's weaknesses figyured out, and Sid won't be a footnote, no he'll be remembered as the most over-hyped player of all-time...then the joke fans in Pittsburgh will stop showing up, because they are nothing but band-wagon hoppers......
I hope you Penns fans out there realize that the Senators are just as young as the Penguins are, and if one team is going to emerge from this generation a dynasty it will be be them!
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
| PENSFAN8771 |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 16:40:32
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
BTW. Luongo WAS traded. For Todd Bertuzzi. Insert laugh track here.
Ya, Florida got hosed on that one.
quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
nonsense about better players out there, Pennsfan.? I think a man by the name of Luongo would disagree......That guy actually carried his team. I think anyone who gets both goaltending and "non-goaltenders" would also admit that he is substantially more talented at his position than Sid could ever be at his. So if people out there want to marvel at the best talent in the NHL, they better watch the guy at the other side of the continent. If I were a Gm who's owner told me he didn't care about putting butts in the seats, he just wanted the team to win the cup, I would instantly trade Crosby for Luongo (Of course, only a dumb GM would accept that trade, they know there are about 20 Crosby's out there, but only one Luongo ).
Well, there's some truth to what you say here IHC. As I've argued on several other threads, Luongo has been more valuable to his team this year than Crosby. I don't think that makes him better. Better implies that the two are comparable and I would say that comparing a goalie to any other position is like comparing apples to oranges. My argument was targeted at the contension that several skaters are better today than Crosby, which I feel is utterly untrue. There probably are a few GMs out there that are more dire for a goaltender than a goal scorer. There are other good goaltenders in the league though. I think Martin Brodeur (except his dismal playoff performance) was just as good as Luongo this year. In fact, the two were nearly statistically identical. Crosby had no one this season who stacked up to him in this manner. That said, I think adding some primary scoring ability to Vancouver may have helped them a lot. You need talent on both ends for a winning team. Pittsburgh has promising goaltenders in the system in Dave Brown and Fleury, so it would be foolish for the Pens to make that trade. Luongo has developed into the player he has become in order to play on the highest level at his position. Crosby is not fully developed and playing at the highest level. I think most GMs would consider that "x factor" with Crosby to be what would make him so desirable to trade for any one player. There aren't 20 Crosbys out there. There are maybe 20 guys who can do one part of Crosby's game as well, but no player in the league today that sees the ice as well, controls the puck as well, passes as well, and has footwrok that is as good as Crosby's. He is a whole package that plays the whole ice.
We've seen lots fo good goaltenders come through the league, just as we've seen lots of good skaters. Luongo is not the best goalie I've ever seen in his prime. While I hate admitting it, Roy and Brodeur were both better in their primes. Many may throw Hasek in there too. And that's just the last 10-15 years. Even in these playoffs, When Vancouver was playing the Stars, Luongo didn't even look like the best goalie on the ice on most nights, Turco did. Remember, their 3 wins were all shutouts. I think the difference between a good skater and a great skater is significantly more tangible than between a good goalie and a great goalie. |
| admin |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 16:39:55
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
nonsense about better players out there, Pennsfan.? I think a man by the name of Luongo would disagree......That guy actually carried his team. I think anyone who gets both goaltending and "non-goaltenders" would also admit that he is substantially more talented at his position than Sid could ever be at his. So if people out there want to marvel at the best talent in the NHL, they better watch the guy at the other side of the continent. If I were a Gm who's owner told me he didn't care about putting butts in the seats, he just wanted the team to win the cup, I would instantly trade Crosby for Luongo (Of course, only a dumb GM would accept that trade, they know there are about 20 Crosby's out there, but only one Luongo ).
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
Mark my words.
In 20 years, Crosby will get standing ovations in every arena he visits in Canada and everywhere else in the world.
Luongo will be a footnote. The Mike Liut of 2027.
BTW. Luongo WAS traded. For Todd Bertuzzi. Insert laugh track here.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz
Agreed that Crosby will be getting standing O's everywhere (assuming his career is long) But I have to disagree that Luongo will be a footnote. We've seen how good he was on a terrible team (Florida) We're just beginning to see what he is capable of on a mediocre team (Vancouver). And right now he is just inching into his prime years. I believe we'll be seeing numbers up there with (and maybe exceeding) Roy and Brodeur. Luongo is the real deal (but then again I've been saying that for at least 4 years) |
| Guest1415 |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 16:22:13
did even need to no who made this all i needed to do was guess IHC |
| andyhack |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 15:50:49
quote:
Originally posted by PENSFAN8771
. Have you ever even been to Pittsburgh?
Total non-hockey note here, but PENSFAN8771. I have been to Pittsburgh and gotta say, I was more impressed with your city than I ever thought I would be. I never realized it was such a nice place. |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 14:33:48
quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
nonsense about better players out there, Pennsfan.? I think a man by the name of Luongo would disagree......That guy actually carried his team. I think anyone who gets both goaltending and "non-goaltenders" would also admit that he is substantially more talented at his position than Sid could ever be at his. So if people out there want to marvel at the best talent in the NHL, they better watch the guy at the other side of the continent. If I were a Gm who's owner told me he didn't care about putting butts in the seats, he just wanted the team to win the cup, I would instantly trade Crosby for Luongo (Of course, only a dumb GM would accept that trade, they know there are about 20 Crosby's out there, but only one Luongo ).
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
Mark my words.
In 20 years, Crosby will get standing ovations in every arena he visits in Canada and everywhere else in the world.
Luongo will be a footnote. The Mike Liut of 2027.
BTW. Luongo WAS traded. For Todd Bertuzzi. Insert laugh track here.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 14:29:59
PENSFAN, that was the single most intelligent post I have ever read on here (besides my own, of course).
Just a note...when Joe Thornton was 19, he scored 41 points for the Boston Bruins.
Joe Sakic had 62 points (and was a -36) in the late 1980's NHL as a 19 year old.
I could go on....
To the statement that this is a "new NHL", I agree that scoring is up, but not dramatically. It is only up slightly. A statistical anomoly, really. It is certainly not back to 1990 levels, nor will it likely ever be. The goalies are better, coaches and systems are better, and to score 120 points, a player has to be better.
I love Gretzky, as you all know. I watched him throughout his early Oiler days on ITV (Albertans remember the games on ITV). He was my hero.
Crosby is better at 19 than Gretzky was.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
| I HATE CROSBY |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 14:20:45
nonsense about better players out there, Pennsfan.? I think a man by the name of Luongo would disagree......That guy actually carried his team. I think anyone who gets both goaltending and "non-goaltenders" would also admit that he is substantially more talented at his position than Sid could ever be at his. So if people out there want to marvel at the best talent in the NHL, they better watch the guy at the other side of the continent. If I were a Gm who's owner told me he didn't care about putting butts in the seats, he just wanted the team to win the cup, I would instantly trade Crosby for Luongo (Of course, only a dumb GM would accept that trade, they know there are about 20 Crosby's out there, but only one Luongo ).
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
| PENSFAN8771 |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 13:44:50
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
OK, now I have to answer to two posts!
PensFans. I agree with 100% of the things that you say. If you re-read my post it clearly states "this site specifically." It may be the young age of some of the people on here. But many can attest to the various people on this site that talk out their ass and can't support anything they say. And the fact that I have never been to Pittsburgh is irrelevant. I am simply saying that many Pens fans on this site talk about how great Crosby is, but can not defend any kind of criticism of his game. I agree that he is an amazing talent, and one day soon will be the best player in the league. Today, I would easily put Lecavalier, Iginla, and Thorton ahead of him. Jagr is still there, so is Joe Sakic and Heatley. So to say without question that Crosby is the best is really premature and narrow minded. That is what I am saying.
And as one final point to your about Art Ross Trophy winners. There is not even a close comparison to the media attention that Crosby got this year compared to Thorton last year or St. Louis the couple years before that. He is the face of the new league and I just have to deal with that. But I don't have to like it.
We can start with the obvious reasons that Thorton didn't get the same hype last year:
He's not 19 years old.
He plays in a market that is not nearly as interested in hockey.
He plays in an area of the country where hockey is not as well covered.
That's why I pointed to TO and Ott.
In addition, the criticisms of Crosby's play are misguided fundamentally.
In general, the dislike for Crosby is based solely on his hype, not his play itself. Hype is the result of his age and his ability to do as well as he has at his age. We haven't seen such a rise since Lemieux. Has anyone even considered that maybe, just maybe, he's worthy of the hype considering what people at his age who did what he's done later did? Maybe what you don't like is that you think it's impossible, perhaps blasphemy, to believe that anyone playing today is capable of being as good as the legends of the game. I don't get what you actually think is so bad about him being the face of the game.
The other major criticism put forward of Crosby is his "whininess". This isn't even a real criticism of him as a player because it has no relationship to his abilities. Such a link only speaks to ignorant minds effectively. Again, he's 19 years old and lives in the world where the spotlight is always on him. He's worked hard to get where he is and is as intense as anyone to play the game. He may be immature, but I'm an RA for 30 19 year olds at college and I think there are only a half-dozen I would consider mature. And the only pressures on them are to get good grades and find some girl to bring home on the weekends, not lead a team in scoring night in and night out. He will grow out of this, so I would defer judgment on the topic.
Finally there is all this nonsense about better players out there.
Heatley may be a better scorer, but he is a far inferior passer. Thorton may be as good a passer, but can't score as well. I'd love to see how Lecavalier stacks up when he isn't skating with St. Louis on his line. And no - Crosby does not usually skate on the same line as Malkin or Staal. I would have also put Jagr above Crosby before this season, but my best hockey friend is a Rangers fan and I saw his age truly show for the first time this year, and I'm not referring to experience, leadership, or anything like that. His body is not what it used to be. Sakic is the greatest leader in the league, but certainly can no longer play with the same level of intensity as Crosby night in and night out. It's a fact of life, guys get older and move from being the best to other roles on their teams. And even with his leadership and Stastny's youth, Sakic was unable to lead the Avs to the playoffs. Similarly, NYR beat writers have been writing articles about a player carrying their team to the playoffs, but it wasn't Jagr, it was Sean Avery. I don't think there is a GM in the league today that wouldn't trade any of these players for Sidney Crosby because they know that his work ethic and raw talent is truly something special. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 12:24:24
Still doesn't change my opinion.
And the question was Who was the best player THIS YEAR? Not, who is the best player in the NHL. Crosby has proved 2 stellar seasons. The others have proven more than that.
And it's nice to see we can agree from time to time as well! |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 12:03:47
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I agree that he is an amazing talent, and one day soon will be the best player in the league. Today, I would easily put Lecavalier, Iginla, and Thorton ahead of him. Jagr is still there, so is Joe Sakic and Heatley. So to say without question that Crosby is the best is really premature and narrow minded. That is what I am saying.
Guess who is premature and narrow-minded!
http://www.thehockeynews.com/en/news/news.asp?idNews=24100
Guess what? I agree that Staal is better than Malkin.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 12:03:18
Now to Fly4apuckGuy. Honestly, that was better than I expected.
I totally agree with just about everything you said. I don't think that Crosby is poor defensively at all, but he is not as good defensively as Staal is. Same as Staal is not as offensively gifted as Crosby. But that does not mean that Staal is poor offensively.
Foot Speed?? Well I can't really disagree, but I recall an amazing player who wore 99 that didn't have great foot speed either. And like Gretzky, Staal has found a way to be effective without being a great skater. And no I am not comparing Staal to Gretzky. I am simply saying that very good hockey players have the ability to work around some physical short comings.
I think the +/- thing in this case is relevant. I am not a huge fan of the +/- stat, however, looking at Staal at +16 and Crosby at +10. You are right that Crosby is playing against the other teams shut down line each night.That makes them generally not the best offensive line, so his +/- should/could be better. I can't really fault him for that as it seems the best offensive players generally have softer +/- stats compared to the points they put up. But is Staal not playing against the other teams top offensive line each night?? To me, that means tons to Staal's defensive abilities. Less points and playing against the other teams best offensive line and still having a higher +/-.?? That's pretty impressive. And also credit Staal's play on the PK, which Crosby does not do very often.
I will admit, it is pretty ignorant of me to say that Staal is the best player on a team with Sidney Crosby. So I will concede the point. I think it has to do with the media's love affair with Crosby and how frustrating that is to some of us. However, I can not concede the point that Staal was not the best rookie on the team. And see my rebuttal to PenFans about the best player in the league. It is not Crosby, and that is another point I will not concede. Comparing him to Lecavalier, Iginla, Heatley, Sakic. I can't in good conscious put him ahead of any of those players yet. One day yes, but not today.
Cheers |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 11:47:43
OK, now I have to answer to two posts!
PensFans. I agree with 100% of the things that you say. If you re-read my post it clearly states "this site specifically." It may be the young age of some of the people on here. But many can attest to the various people on this site that talk out their ass and can't support anything they say. And the fact that I have never been to Pittsburgh is irrelevant. I am simply saying that many Pens fans on this site talk about how great Crosby is, but can not defend any kind of criticism of his game. I agree that he is an amazing talent, and one day soon will be the best player in the league. Today, I would easily put Lecavalier, Iginla, and Thorton ahead of him. Jagr is still there, so is Joe Sakic and Heatley. So to say without question that Crosby is the best is really premature and narrow minded. That is what I am saying.
And as one final point to your about Art Ross Trophy winners. There is not even a close comparison to the media attention that Crosby got this year compared to Thorton last year or St. Louis the couple years before that. He is the face of the new league and I just have to deal with that. But I don't have to like it. |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 11:33:10
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Fly, feel free to rebute my comment if you wish, you obviously disagree. I can't wait to hear your reasons as to why Staal is not the best player on that team.
And be careful, I did not say best scorer, best offensive player, or biggest draw. I said "player." That means two sides of the puck.
I'm waiting.......
Points are one BIG reason. To say points are unimportant would be like saying we should discuss the best NASCAR driver that doesn't use a car. Crosby had 120 points this year, Staal had 42. Crosby scored 7 more goals and almost 70 more assists. That ain't even close.
Plus-minus was comparable. Sid was +10 playing over 20 minutes a game, Staal was +16 playing less than 15. Considering Sid plays against the other team's top line night in and night out, that's pretty good.
But the #1 reason....foot speed. Crosby can do all of the things that Staal does, and he is rocket fast. I like Staal a lot...big fan... but the kid is slow and lumbering, and if he doesn't find another gear, other teams are going to find a way to shut him down next year.
Staal scored more goals this year in the NHL than he ever did playing junior. He is big, has some moves, and is a smart defensive player for his age. Like I said, I love the kid, but his numbers will be similar next year or at best only slightly better - mark my words. Look at how he is performing (or not performing) at the World Championship right now. 0 points. At times, he looks very out of place on the big ice surface, appearing almost glacial in his movements. It's because his foot speed is less than average.
Crosby is underrated defensively. It is popular to slam highly skilled offensive players as lax on defence, but this is simply not true in his case. He almost never loses one-on-one battles down low in his own end, and can single handedly get the puck out by making a clean stretch pass or by beating two or three guys with his speed. He can also use that speed to be the first player back on the backcheck. These are things you do not find on stat sheets.
Crosby is a superstar. Period. If you don't believe me, ask the NHL players themselves (they picked him as the best player in a recent player's poll done by The Hockey News).
Staal, on the other hand is a very good young prospect. But seriously, he was not even the best rookie this year, let alone the best player in the NHL (which is what you are calling him if you say he is a better player than Crosby).
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
| PENSFAN8771 |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 10:38:18
Beans, I think you are mistaking Pens fans for hockey fans in general. Penguins beatr reporters give plenty of coverage to the other talents on the ice. Serious Penguins fans discuss the talents of Staal and Malkin and the importance of Roberts and Recchi to the team. In Pittsburgh, Malone is a household name because he's from Pittsburgh. Fleury is praised (I believe very wrongly) as the next Martin Brodeur. Fans get excited when shootouts start because Christiensen is one of the most reliable shooters in the game today. In Pittsburgh, Hockey fans discuss the impacts of many players. Sure, Sid gets lots of press. Where wouldn't he get lots of press if he won the Art Ross Trophy? You are crazy if you think that in TO or Ottawa Crosby wouldn't be all the rage if he was putting up numbers there. Moreover, it's easier for national reporters to focus on the guy everyone knows about. It's an easier article to write and an easier paper to sell. The outside world focuses on one player, but pick up a Post-Gazette or a Tribune-Review next season and you'll find articles pertaining to lots of players, not just Sid. I'm sorry, but your staements about Pens fans only discussing one player are extremely ill informed. Have you ever even been to Pittsburgh? |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 09:40:37
Fly, feel free to rebute my comment if you wish, you obviously disagree. I can't wait to hear your reasons as to why Staal is not the best player on that team.
And be careful, I did not say best scorer, best offensive player, or biggest draw. I said "player." That means two sides of the puck.
I'm waiting....... |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 07:42:06
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
All you hear about is Crosby, but not so much about Malkin, Staal(who is the best player on that team in my opinion), Fleury, Gonchar, Roberts, Whitney, Malone, etc.
Staal is the best player on the team?
Drugs are bad for you.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
| Guest7098 |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 22:51:49
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I have nothing personally against Pens fans. I do understand the fact that they have to defend their star as he is a great player with a lot on his shoulders. So the Pens fans do need to defend themselves a little more that other team's fans.
That being said, I have noticed on this site specifically that the Pens fans seem to not see the forrest for the trees. Many on here talk about Crosby and his talents, but leave out the other great players on that team that make them who they are. All you hear about is Crosby, but not so much about Malkin, Staal(who is the best player on that team in my opinion), Fleury, Gonchar, Roberts, Whitney, Malone, etc.
So, although I think IHC has been a little more over the top in this thread than in other, I can see his point. Pens fans have been frustrating me lately as well.
clearly no one knows what they are talking about because staal will be the next joey thornton. he will dominate in his time, and he is THE BEST prospect/sophomore in the league, dont argue, please, youre nuts to do so. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 22:39:53
I have nothing personally against Pens fans. I do understand the fact that they have to defend their star as he is a great player with a lot on his shoulders. So the Pens fans do need to defend themselves a little more that other team's fans.
That being said, I have noticed on this site specifically that the Pens fans seem to not see the forrest for the trees. Many on here talk about Crosby and his talents, but leave out the other great players on that team that make them who they are. All you hear about is Crosby, but not so much about Malkin, Staal(who is the best player on that team in my opinion), Fleury, Gonchar, Roberts, Whitney, Malone, etc.
So, although I think IHC has been a little more over the top in this thread than in other, I can see his point. Pens fans have been frustrating me lately as well. |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 22:09:25
quote:
Originally posted by PENSFAN8771
So we all know something. IHC is only on these boards for shock value, not to advance any meaningful ideas.
And BINGO was his name-o.
As my dad used to say, he talks a lot and says very little.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
| manninm |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 05:41:04
quote:
Originally posted by ED11
To IHC...
Look man, I see where you are coming from. You like the "old hockey" game and you're all about the "tough" guys being the face of the NHL and Crosby being a "p****", as you put it, blah blah blah. But dude, times have changed. It's hard to accept, isn't it? Hockey is trying to compete with all the other major sports in North America and a guy like Crosby COULD help them. Sure he doesn't hit much or fight and in your eyes that makes him a p****? I really am starting to question your knowledge on hockey. Franchise players have existed for a long time and yes I do agree with you that hockey maybe was more about "team play" back in the day, but team play also exists now.
You said that you don't like "whiners". Dude. I have a suggestion for you. Stop your whining about Crosby. Seriously. Be proud that a Canadian born player has once again come along that is the face of the NHL. Be proud that, baring an injury, he will lead team Canada in 2010. What? You won't be cheering for him then when he's leading them? All I'm saying is take your own adivce on the whining.
Agreed. And it seems like you prefer Ovechkin over Crosby? I got news for you...Ovechkin's game doesn't have anything resembling "old time hockey." |
| hithere311 |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 05:19:39
Then lets hope your local team beats Pittsburgh IHC. |
| ED11 |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 23:11:10
To IHC...
Look man, I see where you are coming from. You like the "old hockey" game and you're all about the "tough" guys being the face of the NHL and Crosby being a "p****", as you put it, blah blah blah. But dude, times have changed. It's hard to accept, isn't it? Hockey is trying to compete with all the other major sports in North America and a guy like Crosby COULD help them. Sure he doesn't hit much or fight and in your eyes that makes him a p****? I really am starting to question your knowledge on hockey. Franchise players have existed for a long time and yes I do agree with you that hockey maybe was more about "team play" back in the day, but team play also exists now.
You said that you don't like "whiners". Dude. I have a suggestion for you. Stop your whining about Crosby. Seriously. Be proud that a Canadian born player has once again come along that is the face of the NHL. Be proud that, baring an injury, he will lead team Canada in 2010. What? You won't be cheering for him then when he's leading them? All I'm saying is take your own adivce on the whining. |
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