| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| hockeyrocks101 |
Posted - 11/26/2010 : 15:35:01
Will anybody in the nhl right now break wayne's 215 points in one season? Gretzky even said a couple years ago that Ovi has a chance at breaking his record. |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Guest0829 |
Posted - 02/14/2012 : 18:55:08
even if a player did get on pace for those kind of records, its very unlikely that they would play the whole year. Players are bigger, faster, stronger and smarter and if someone was on pace for that I am sure they would be taken out by some sort of hit/injury. |
| Guest4403 |
Posted - 02/14/2012 : 18:25:01
People should realize that no other player other than Gretzky or Lemieux have over 155 points in a season. I believe that was Yzerman in the 80s, correct me if I am wrong.
That's not just a bit but a huge amount of a gap even for players in the 80s with lesser quality goaltending. The destroyed even the other great players from that era by a LOT.
It's obvious that they wouldn't get that in todays game.
Now if Orr was playing in the 80s as a forward, we might have an argument. Even as a defenseman he still kicked ass, |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 02/11/2012 : 18:34:30
But, GOMEZ, really????? |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 02/11/2012 : 10:25:23
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4306
It's very interesting that another recent forum topic asks the question "will anyone score 100 points this season" while this posting asks if anyone will break Gretzky's single season record for points (215).
Very well put! Wow, what a change in the way the game is played, officiated, etc. I still consider Gretzky the greatest ever, but let's face it, even he, in his prime, wouldn't be putting up those numbers in todays game! Too bad we'll never know exactly what he could have done in todays NHL? Having said that, he did have 74 more points in his 215pts year than the runner up (Lemieux)~!!! |
| Guest4306 |
Posted - 02/11/2012 : 00:05:11
It's very interesting that another recent forum topic asks the question "will anyone score 100 points this season" while this posting asks if anyone will break Gretzky's single season record for points (215).
I think the question about scoring 100 points this season is a reasonable question, but I think it's near impossible that any existing NHL player will break Gretzky's record. |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 02/10/2012 : 16:42:11
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4465
Only if they make the goalies wear next to no pads again.
No Helmets, no cups, no chest protectors. You'll get the goalies diving 'out of the way of the puck' rather then in the way of the puck to save it.
Possible 200pt players if you change the game completely:
Turris
Gomez
Hemsky
Atleast 5 players from the following teams with get 200pts each:
Columbus
Phoenix
Florida
Minnesota
Colorado
You have the change the game in order for this to happen though. Rule #1 Once of the the above players gets the puck, no opposing player can 'take the puck' from them, no checking. Simply put all opposing players must 'move out of the way'
Gomez? Really? |
| Guest5744 |
Posted - 02/06/2012 : 05:26:37
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4465
Columbus
Phoenix
Florida
Minnesota
Colorado
i don't think colorado and minnesota deserve to be listed with those other horrible fan base teams |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 02/05/2012 : 02:04:09
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4465
Only if they make the goalies wear next to no pads again.
No Helmets, no cups, no chest protectors. You'll get the goalies diving 'out of the way of the puck' rather then in the way of the puck to save it.
Possible 200pt players if you change the game completely:
Turris
Gomez
Hemsky
Atleast 5 players from the following teams with get 200pts each:
Columbus
Phoenix
Florida
Minnesota
Colorado
You have the change the game in order for this to happen though. Rule #1 Once of the the above players gets the puck, no opposing player can 'take the puck' from them, no checking. Simply put all opposing players must 'move out of the way'
HUH? Wtf? i'm totally lost......is that meant to make someone laugh??? If so, if anyone understood enough to make themselfves, laugh, please share the explanation??? |
| Guest4465 |
Posted - 02/04/2012 : 20:04:45
Only if they make the goalies wear next to no pads again.
No Helmets, no cups, no chest protectors. You'll get the goalies diving 'out of the way of the puck' rather then in the way of the puck to save it.
Possible 200pt players if you change the game completely:
Turris
Gomez
Hemsky
Atleast 5 players from the following teams with get 200pts each:
Columbus
Phoenix
Florida
Minnesota
Colorado
You have the change the game in order for this to happen though. Rule #1 Once of the the above players gets the puck, no opposing player can 'take the puck' from them, no checking. Simply put all opposing players must 'move out of the way'
|
| Guest4465 |
Posted - 02/04/2012 : 19:39:00
Scott Gomez should be able too.
Considering that he is getting paid way more then what Gretzky got, certainly Gomez should be doing better, being that he gets paid 8million to do absolutely nothing. |
| Guest7116 |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 21:04:38
no but sam gagner will tie it!!! haha I can't believe this s*** ... |
| Guest7961 |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 04:08:57
sure someone will, then brace yourself for the world's loudest whine |
| Guest7116 |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 15:52:18
Goalies used to suck... you didn't even have to raise the puck. And god forbid you make a head fake, the goalie would really be out to lunch. |
| Guest8875 |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 20:06:05
I remember Gretzky saying something along the lines of Nugent-Hopkins being poised with the same vision that led him to greatness but he's playing in a much different league. I don't remember the exact words though. |
| Guest5744 |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 08:05:52
99% sure it will never happen (pun intended). last year vancouver led the league with 262 goals for. In 1985-1986 season when gretzky got 215 pts the oilers had 426 goals for. the lowest amount of goals scored by a team that year was 266... the game has changed drastically if you can get 140 points in todays game I would consider that better than gretzkys 215 back in the day |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 07:52:10
Tox....that's prob because improvements in players equipment (ie. NASA invented sticks as you refer to them) don't equal out to the increase in size of the goalies and their pads. Bottom line is, they cover WAY more of the net than they used to. I don't care if your NASA stick can shoot a puck 400mph, it's not gonna go through something blocking space in the net! Keep in mind, the goalie's equipment has not just gotten bigger, so too have the goalies (avg size). Combine that with the fact that goalies continue to improve in athleticism AND that the pads, while larger, are lighter and you can see why the evolution of the goalie has far surpassed anything the offensive players have accomplished.
I'm not sure when the rules changed in comparison to Gretzky's record year or his other big years (or those of Lemiuex, Yzerman, etc) but the 4 on 4 power players likely added to the numbers back then as well. |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 07:10:15
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
There absolutely was a difference in not only the style of goaltending but also the equipment. However, I don't believe this is as impactful as people are assuming. Let's not forget that when those pads where smaller and heavier, there were also very, very loose interpretations of hooking, slashing, tripping, etc. Gretzky's defensive move was to hook the player from behind, steal the puck, and slingshot around the other way!!
Looking at is purely statistically, the 80's were the highest scoring period of time in hockey history and was about 20% higher than today. A 200 points season would be comparable to a 160 pt season today. And considering that only 2 players in the history of the game scored 160 or more points(you know who they are) and the last one happened in 1996 it makes it even less likely. Heck, there is only 1 active player in the NHL today who has had a 130+ point season (Selanne) and only 3 others who have navigated a 120+ point season(Thornton, Recchi, and Crosby).
I would be shocked to even see a 140 point season again in my lifetime without some significant changes to the game (net size, pad sizes, 4-4 over 5-5).
It's never going to happen.
Everyone quotes the goalie equipment, how about the fact that players are bigger, weigh more, skate faster with advanced equipment and i don't need to mention the $600 NASA invented sticks? It ain't all about the goalie equipment, players equipment has evolved just as well, the skill hasn't. |
| Guest4465 |
Posted - 12/30/2011 : 23:17:25
No one will ever get over 200 points in a single season.
The players that could even come close are Crosby, and Ovechkin, maybe Stamkos. Crosby looks like a Bobby Orr, probably will have a short career unfortunately. Ovi has maybe 1 more 100 point season in him, then he's done. NHL players have figured him out, and he isn't the same player as he was 2,3 years ago. shame really.
I think Stamkos will win the Hart Trophy this year.
As for the 50 goals in 39 games, I can see someone getting that, don't know who, but if they start out with goals and have a steady pace of 2 or 3 goals a game they can reach it. Gretzky didn't get his 1st goal til his 3rd game, and he went through a period (4 games) without goal. If a player got a couple hat tricks, and a lot of 2 goal games he could reach that 50 goals in 39 games. Although its not only a mountain to climb, its Everest. |
| Johnny77 |
Posted - 12/30/2011 : 22:03:58
Seguin in 2 seasons |
| Guest5649 |
Posted - 05/20/2011 : 10:56:25
NO |
| doublechamp7 |
Posted - 12/02/2010 : 16:57:19
I agree with that guest 8494, the skill players were no doubt awesome but the NHL was nowhere as deep as it is today. |
| Guest8494 |
Posted - 12/02/2010 : 15:23:18
A lot of points were scored period during that era, a major contributing factor being it wasn't too long after a couple of major expansions. The top 3 forwards and top 2 defensemen would probably be as good as at any point in hockey history present day included. But the other 13 players on the teams today are better than they've ever been.
The league suddenly doubles in size and consequently the teams have to fill their rosters up. So players from the AHL, ECHL, Europe, KHL etc who would be just on the cusp right now, are good enough. Imagine what a Penguins v Caps, or a Blackhawks v Lightning game would look like if the 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines are basically AHLers. Stamkos and St. Louis already skate circles around teams, it would be unreal.
Since then a lot more money has been spent in development leagues and the development leagues have been expanded. It takes awhile for the changes in minor hockey to make it to the NHL. 20 years later the relative skill level in the league is much higher even if the Superstars don't shine as brightly. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 12/02/2010 : 15:05:31
O-K Beans...peace brother. V  |
| Yewcandoit |
Posted - 12/01/2010 : 23:07:08
It is not likely that this will happen anytime soon, but it will happen. The game will have changed so much in 20 or 50 years.
|
| nuxfan |
Posted - 11/30/2010 : 22:07:26
Henrik Sedin has a legitimate shot I think - 25 assists in 22 games so far, and unlike other players near the top of the assist board right now, he has proven to be a true assist machine over his career. He had 83 last year, but missed Daniel for 6 weeks early on (the usual recipient of his passes). If Daniel stays healthy this year, Hank should not get too distracted by goal scoring and just keep feeding his brother.
After last year's goal spurt, its looking like the back-to-usual this year with Hank. If he hits 100 points again this year it will probably be a 10g-90a sort of year. We'll see. |
| Guest0947 |
Posted - 11/30/2010 : 17:40:59
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0078
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
There are only 3 players in the history of the NHL to have 100 assists or more in a season. Orr had 102(which by a defensemen is nearly as impressive at 163 by Gretzky) and Lemieux had 114. Even Gretzky's next best assist season was 135, nearly 30 short of the record.
No one, ever, will more than 163 assists in a season. The best in the NHL today in assists are barely 1/2 of that in a season.
Never.
Makes you think about how good Joe Thornton's couple of seasons were (as a playmaker) in 05-06 and 06-07 with 96 and 92 assists respectively. Even Crosby hasn't broken 90 assists yet. Actually outside of the 3 guys you mentioned above only Oates has had a season with more assists than Thornton (97 in 1992-93). And Joe is the only person since the mid 90's to get over 85 assists.
This is very true... Question is will someone even beat Thornton's 96 assists anytime soon. |
| sahis34 |
Posted - 11/30/2010 : 16:18:42
Maybe in NHL 11 but that's how close someone will come
Go OILERS Go!!! |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/30/2010 : 15:11:57
Duke, as a moderator I must remind you of the forum guidelines. In those guidelines, it clearly states to respect other posters and to not partake in personal attacks. Someone saying your opinion is hilarious is a statement about your opinion, not you as a person. Someone saying get a grip has nothing to do with someone calling you a moron, implied or otherwise.
The guidelines also discuss the spell checking. The word is 'says' not 'sez'. This is not a text message or a note to a friend.
On this forum there are guidelines to follow. If you choose not to follow them, Admin will make the decision as to if you get to continue to be part of the community on PUH.
As a moderator, I am here to remind you of the guidelines and to ask you to follow them. The rest is your choice.
Now, please excuse me while I go and smoke my pipe. 
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2160
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=609
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=608 |
| The Duke |
Posted - 11/30/2010 : 15:02:46
Beans, Firstly... when someone sez your post is ,...Hilarious....its just as well if they say you are a moron..When someone sez because of your comments...Get A Grip..its just as well if they say, get in touch with reality, so You are a moron...
If this is not insulting what is ??
Secondly... this is Canada, not Cuba...therefore
i will express my opinions where, when and however i like...so put that in your pipe and smoke it..!!!
Thirdly...Oh yes Gretzky did almost cry on national television when he Couldn`t beat Saint Patrick, so get over it. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/30/2010 : 08:48:06
Firstly, I read through Ripley's post and I did not see anything insulting, rambling, or non-intelligent. Secondly, if one finds something insulting the answer is not to insult back. Keep your hockey opinions flowing but keep your opinions of others to yourself. They are not welcome or appreciated.
Finally, I respect the fact that some of us did have the chance to watch a bunch of hockey through the 80's and 90's that others maybe didn't. However, each person's 'memory' of the game seems to be very different. 2-3 seconds for a goalies to stand back up?? C'mon. No need to embelish anything! There were some great goalies in the NHL in the 80's and they were every bit as good as the goalies today. They were hindered compared to today's keepers because of the equipment they were using but also the styles that were coached. It was not until the mid to late 80's where goalies would actually go to the ice consistantly to make saves.
Secondly, Patrick Roy never beat Wayne Gretzky. The Habs beat the Kings and Patrick Roy had a very big part of that. But let's not forget that Gretzky produced points in every game of that finals and Montreal needed 3 OT wins for that Cup. It's not like it was a landslide victory in any way, shape or form. I was also not a clear victory of Patrick Roy over Wayne Gretzky. Gretzky' magic was there.
Finally, we are talking about 2 goals a game when comparing today to the 80's. It's is closer to 1 goal a game when comparing today to the 90's. So let's not get all, looking at the scoring. Gretzky and Lemieux would still be head and shoulders above anyone else in the game today in my humble opinion. It's not like everyone was scoring 200 points a year. most players were 50+ points behind Gretzky and in some cases significantly more.
We are not comparing goaltending here, we are talking about players who were so ahead of their time that the era is irrelevant. No different than Bobby Orr and Guy Lefleur in their time or Gordie Howe and Rocket Richard in their time.
The greatest of all time would be the greatest in any era. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 11/29/2010 : 17:05:57
Sorry Ripley, forgot to mention, in my previous post i said that there were appro. 5 - 7 great goalies in that era of hockey....guess what you did in your rebuttal ??
You named them for me  guess you must agree if all you could do was bring up 5 - 7 names  |
| The Duke |
Posted - 11/29/2010 : 17:00:25
Hey Ripley...your way off not thinking that OVERALL goalies are not better now than in the past. It took 3 seconds for some of those goalies to get off their arse 20 - 30 years ago, i know, i`m no youngster, i watched it.
THERE WERE great goalies in the past, i know this, i`m not stupid. There just wasn`t as many. Gretzky and Lemieux were GREAT...GODS if you may. How can you say they both basically played againist the same generation of goalies as today going by their retirement dates ?? Are you saying that when they retired they were as good as they always were ?? gimme a break.
You say Gretzky scored massive againist ALL goalies, you even named Patrick Roy for example. Can you remember 1993 Ripley ??? When P.ROY beat Gretzky 4 games to 1 ??? to take the stanley cup !!! you sir talk nonsense. Where was Gretzky`s magic against a TOP NOTCH goalie night - in , night - out in that series ??
I loved watching the old oilers and the penguins...even as a leaf fan, yes i sure did. Gretzkys was at his best from ( roughly 1982 - 1989 )...thats 20 years ago, hardly todays generation of goalies. Lemieux`s `` A `` days were short lived because of illness, it was over 15 years ago, ( 1991 - 1994 ) when he was healthy and in his prime, hardly todays generation of goalies either.
rross, i totally agree with your common reasoning and logic, you stated your points clear and well. Not some mumbo - jumbo rambling, insulting, non - intelligent comments like ripley got on with. |
| Utemin |
Posted - 11/29/2010 : 16:44:29
You just can't compare it. You would need to actually clone a 70's player while they were 5 years old and train them with Todays hockey gear to compare it.
I guess you can say that players equipment evolved with Goalie equipment meaning that Goalies are better today, or maybe even players are just worse.
The Monkey is me |
| rross |
Posted - 11/29/2010 : 11:57:27
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
I am a goalie coach and am involved in this first hand. The style is more than just "the butterfly" and new concepts/ideas are being introduced to the position on a yearly basis.
But be fair... goalies are a lot larger now than they were 20 years ago, and the equipment is significantly larger as well. It makes for a larger net presence and less room for players to score.
Also, the equipment is just plain better. I remember playing goal in street hockey games back in the 80's... after an hour, those pads might have weighed 20 pounds each saturated with sweat and water. Your jersey/equipment similarly soaked. Today's equipment is stronger, lighter, and allows players to move quicker.
One has to wonder how players like Fuhr, Roy, etc might have played given todays equipment/training/conditions. Similarly, how good would Luongo, Miller, Lundqvist be back in the 80's?
Correct on both points about the size of the goalies and their equipment. But the game is faster, shots are harder. The equipment had to evolve to keep up with this. My point is that when you add this to the training and evolution of the position, you get what we see in today's NHL. This adds to less scoring which adds to my point that Gretzky's record is safe for now, until another part of the game evolves.
So....there's more to it than just"the goalie gear is better". Goalies, in general, are just plain better in today's NHL. Faster, more technical etc.
Go Habs Go!! |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/29/2010 : 11:49:53
There absolutely was a difference in not only the style of goaltending but also the equipment. However, I don't believe this is as impactful as people are assuming. Let's not forget that when those pads where smaller and heavier, there were also very, very loose interpretations of hooking, slashing, tripping, etc. Gretzky's defensive move was to hook the player from behind, steal the puck, and slingshot around the other way!!
Looking at is purely statistically, the 80's were the highest scoring period of time in hockey history and was about 20% higher than today. A 200 points season would be comparable to a 160 pt season today. And considering that only 2 players in the history of the game scored 160 or more points(you know who they are) and the last one happened in 1996 it makes it even less likely. Heck, there is only 1 active player in the NHL today who has had a 130+ point season (Selanne) and only 3 others who have navigated a 120+ point season(Thornton, Recchi, and Crosby).
I would be shocked to even see a 140 point season again in my lifetime without some significant changes to the game (net size, pad sizes, 4-4 over 5-5).
It's never going to happen. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 11/29/2010 : 10:17:36
quote:
I am a goalie coach and am involved in this first hand. The style is more than just "the butterfly" and new concepts/ideas are being introduced to the position on a yearly basis.
But be fair... goalies are a lot larger now than they were 20 years ago, and the equipment is significantly larger as well. It makes for a larger net presence and less room for players to score.
Also, the equipment is just plain better. I remember playing goal in street hockey games back in the 80's... after an hour, those pads might have weighed 20 pounds each saturated with sweat and water. Your jersey/equipment similarly soaked. Today's equipment is stronger, lighter, and allows players to move quicker.
One has to wonder how players like Fuhr, Roy, etc might have played given todays equipment/training/conditions. Similarly, how good would Luongo, Miller, Lundqvist be back in the 80's? |
| rross |
Posted - 11/29/2010 : 07:05:18
quote:
Originally posted by Ripley
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
As good as Gretzky and Lemiux were they played at a point in time where goal-tending was not as dominant ( over-all ) as it is today.
In those days ( in my opinion ) there were maybe 5 - 7 dominant goalies in the league, now almost every team has strong goal-tending. Goalies now make unbelievable saves night in - night out, plus the equipment now on a 6 ` 3 `` goalie using the butter-fly style doesn`t leave much for a shooter if the angles are covered right.
This, i think is the main reason these records will never be broken.
ok, this is hilarious! If you want to say the gear is bigger thats fine but dont say that goaltending wasn't as good. The goalies were incredible. And don't forget that Lemieux only retired a few years ago for god sake The goalies are essentially the same generation as the one's playing in the last couple years you are refering to. He played against Brodeur, Hasak, Belfour. and only a few years further back he played agains monters like Roy, Vernon, Joseph, Hextall and dozens more for over a decade! These guys are legends and Lemieux scored massive against all of them!
And Gretz onlly retired 10 years ago and played against the same guys. GET A GRIP!!! I know for you young guys that is practically your whole life but it's not much time at all. goaltender gear is the big reason boys. and I agree with Liegh that no player in todays game is even close to the level of those two guys.
I don't think Duke said goaltending wasn't good in decades past, just not as dominant. High calibre goalies are balanced throughout today's NHL and here's the reason why:
In my opinion, the goaltending position has evolved the most. Goaltending styles, coaching and physical training have all accounted for this. If you think about it, it had to evolve. With bigger, faster players, harder shots, coaching systems etc. the goalie postion had to become such a fine art just to keep up, that now we are seeing less goals scored than in past decades. This will continue to be the way until another part of the game evolves to make up for this deficiency.
I am a goalie coach and am involved in this first hand. The style is more than just "the butterfly" and new concepts/ideas are being introduced to the position on a yearly basis.
Go Habs Go!! |
| Awesome One |
Posted - 11/29/2010 : 06:28:13
It can't happen, it will never happen again, that's almost twice as many points as the scoring champ from this year.
Not happening
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
| Utemin |
Posted - 11/28/2010 : 21:10:41
Goalies Equipment sucked, and the Goalie coaches sucked more! unfortuanatley for players like Teemu Salanne that all changed after his rookie year. The salary cap might be the biggest difference though!?
The Monkey is me |
| Ripley |
Posted - 11/28/2010 : 20:14:12
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
As good as Gretzky and Lemiux were they played at a point in time where goal-tending was not as dominant ( over-all ) as it is today.
In those days ( in my opinion ) there were maybe 5 - 7 dominant goalies in the league, now almost every team has strong goal-tending. Goalies now make unbelievable saves night in - night out, plus the equipment now on a 6 ` 3 `` goalie using the butter-fly style doesn`t leave much for a shooter if the angles are covered right.
This, i think is the main reason these records will never be broken.
ok, this is hilarious! If you want to say the gear is bigger thats fine but dont say that goaltending wasn't as good. The goalies were incredible. And don't forget that Lemieux only retired a few years ago for god sake The goalies are essentially the same generation as the one's playing in the last couple years you are refering to. He played against Brodeur, Hasak, Belfour. and only a few years further back he played agains monters like Roy, Vernon, Joseph, Hextall and dozens more for over a decade! These guys are legends and Lemieux scored massive against all of them!
And Gretz onlly retired 10 years ago and played against the same guys. GET A GRIP!!! I know for you young guys that is practically your whole life but it's not much time at all. goaltender gear is the big reason boys. and I agree with Liegh that no player in todays game is even close to the level of those two guys. |
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