| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 12/03/2009 : 15:48:04
Link to the signing
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2009/12/03/sp-hockey-hawks-signing.html
With that the Toews Kane and Keith saga is over for at least another 5 years.
I'd say Keith in this is the big winner 8 million for the next few years and Toews and Kane signing for identical contracts peaking at 6.5
Is this fair value or Under/Over value for these guys |
| 22 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Guest6816 |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 06:16:01
It is very hard to tell because they both have good and bad games but I think they should be payed more like 1 mill more!!!! |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 11:53:42
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9270
I believe Campbell is a really good skater and passer and that some teams could use him and maybe they would take his salary.
If Scott Gomez and his salary can be traded then anyone can be traded.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Leafs81 |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 07:49:09
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9270
Beans the other day you posted that the Blackhawks would never be able to get rid of Campbell because you said no team would want his salary.
We're not saying Campbell is not good, we are saying that the his salary is way overpaid and that salary wize the team would be better off to keep Seabrook then Campbell. Especially with all the young stars they have and the fact that they already have an overpaid goalie. IMO It wouldn't be a smart move to get rid of a couple of players to dump salary in order to keep Campbell. Plus I don't think they NEED Campbell because of the way Keith, Barker and Seabrook are playing. Unlike other teams who could really use a guy like Campbell.
And I believe Campbell is a really good skater and passer and that some teams could use him and maybe they would take his salary.
That was me
Happy holidays everybody :) |
| Guest9270 |
Posted - 12/12/2009 : 07:48:07
Beans the other day you posted that the Blackhawks would never be able to get rid of Campbell because you said no team would want his salary.
We're not saying Campbell is not good, we are saying that the his salary is way overpaid and that salary wize the team would be better off to keep Seabrook then Campbell. Especially with all the young stars they have and the fact that they already have an overpaid goalie. IMO It wouldn't be a smart move to get rid of a couple of players to dump salary in order to keep Campbell. Plus I don't think they NEED Campbell because of the way Keith, Barker and Seabrook are playing. Unlike other teams who could really use a guy like Campbell.
And I believe Campbell is a really good skater and passer and that some teams could use him and maybe they would take his salary. |
| willus3 |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 12:49:32
Beans, I think you will enjoy this site a lot. Being the stat guy you are.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_5_on_5.php?sort=8§ion=goals&mingp=&mintoi=&team=CHI&pos=
As you can see Campbell faces a much lower quality of competition than Keith and Seabrook. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 12:29:24
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
My arguement never was who is paid right and who is overpaid. I would like to understand what facit of the game that Seabrook is so far outplaying Cambell in. I would also like to see how Seabrook's play makes Keith better. I would actually suggest that Keith is on a downward trend, specifically in +/- this year compared his previous seasons.
I could really care less what people are paid. My arguement is that I don't understand why makes Campbell below Seabrook???
Personally, I would say there is a valid arguement to Campbell being the 2nd best d-man on the Blackhawks roster.
Beans you're overlooking the fact that Keith and Seabrook are the pair who see the hardest minutes. They face the other teams top lines night in and night out. Campbell sees secondary scoring lines and powerplay time.
I can see that point, and I agree. However, Keith was seeing those same minutes last season and finished the year at +33 and was +30 before that. And please correct me if I am wrong but I recall the the Seabrook/Keith was not a pairing used all of last year. Mostly later in the year and the playoffs is when I recall that pairing.
However, I could be wrong.
Never the less, when Seabrook and Campbell both have virtually the same minutes on the ice, I have a hard time seeing that all or even most of Campbell's minutes are PP and 2nd rate offensive competition.
It's no different than when Pronger and Neidermayer played with Anaheim. Both had nearly the same minutes but only played PK and PP together. One was not seeing an easier time than the other.
But, I will admit I might be wrong. I don't see nearly as much Chicago comparatively to Edmonton, Calgary, and Vancouver so I might be out to lunch. I don't think I am, but I might be.  |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 12:21:12
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
My arguement never was who is paid right and who is overpaid. I would like to understand what facit of the game that Seabrook is so far outplaying Cambell in. I would also like to see how Seabrook's play makes Keith better. I would actually suggest that Keith is on a downward trend, specifically in +/- this year compared his previous seasons.
I could really care less what people are paid. My arguement is that I don't understand why makes Campbell below Seabrook???
Personally, I would say there is a valid arguement to Campbell being the 2nd best d-man on the Blackhawks roster.
Lets face it in the cap era what you make is almost as important as what you do on the ice. You said Jovanovski has an inflated contract but Jovanovski's #'s are comparable to Campbell's except for +/- but i give Jovo a bit of a pass due to the fact that Pheonix's offense isn't even comparable to Chicago's.
Not trying to say Campbell is a plug, like you said he skates like the wind, but he's no better than Seabrook at $4 million a year more. The answer to your original question, "Is he that bad?" No he isn't but between the two players the salary makes him more of a lightning rod for criticism. Like I said on another team he's a legitimate number one but his numbers are comparable to some of the guys above that I compared him with like Weber 53 pts, Kaberle 31pts in only 57 games, and Souray 53 pts, Campbell 52. The Blackhawks are extremely deep at defence and yes Campbell doesn't get all the credit he deserves, but Seabrook, in my opinion is the better player and the one to hang onto. The Seabrook/Keith pairing could be a career long shutdown pair for the Blackhawks.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| willus3 |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 12:08:21
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
My arguement never was who is paid right and who is overpaid. I would like to understand what facit of the game that Seabrook is so far outplaying Cambell in. I would also like to see how Seabrook's play makes Keith better. I would actually suggest that Keith is on a downward trend, specifically in +/- this year compared his previous seasons.
I could really care less what people are paid. My arguement is that I don't understand why makes Campbell below Seabrook???
Personally, I would say there is a valid arguement to Campbell being the 2nd best d-man on the Blackhawks roster.
Beans you're overlooking the fact that Keith and Seabrook are the pair who see the hardest minutes. They face the other teams top lines night in and night out. Campbell sees secondary scoring lines and powerplay time.
|
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 11:30:44
My arguement never was who is paid right and who is overpaid. I would like to understand what facit of the game that Seabrook is so far outplaying Cambell in. I would also like to see how Seabrook's play makes Keith better. I would actually suggest that Keith is on a downward trend, specifically in +/- this year compared his previous seasons.
I could really care less what people are paid. My arguement is that I don't understand why makes Campbell below Seabrook???
Personally, I would say there is a valid arguement to Campbell being the 2nd best d-man on the Blackhawks roster. |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 12/11/2009 : 10:07:28
Don't think Campbell is a pylon Beans but he's scrutinized so much becuase of the $ he gets, It's hard to defend his salray when he is getting outplayed by Seabrook and Keith. I agree Keith is an elite guy but you can't argue he is carrying Seabrook because the reverse would have to be argued too, that Seabrook makes Keith better.
As for your List Beans, you can't compare Brian Campbell to Norris trophy winners like Neidermayer, Lidstrom and Chara. Jovoanovski, Boyle (Blake is the captain but not the #1 guy), and Bowmeester at least are number one defencemen on their respective teams. Not saying Campbell isn't capable of being a number one on a lesser team.
Including Redden is ridiculous, that's possibly the worst contract ever and if that is the measuring stick then the average defenceman's salary in the NHL should be 9 million.
Phaneuf is the most appropriate comparison. He has been under the microscope as well this season because of poor play while making $6.5 million.
Campbell isn't a bad player by any means but he was over paid for by $2-3 million, which isn't his fault it's Dale Tallon's. He wasn't the only Sabre to get over paid for in free agency Briere, Drury...
Brian Campbell's worth is more along the line of guys like
Kaberle - $4.25 million
Regehr - $4 million
Weber - $4.5 million
Phillips - $3.5 million
Souray - $5.4 million
Ohlund - $4million
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 15:09:29
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by bounty2k3
I as well agree that Niemi is not a #1 goaltender, yet. Which is why I said give him next season he will be ready for the Chicago position. We have a great defensive core that will be able to help him out.
As for Campbell, for him to make 7.5 million, he should be getting numbers like Perry and Getzlaf from Anaheim, not 40 points a season. As well as a little more defensive minded as well. He can skate very well but can he see the ice as much as people think? I don't think he can to be honest. This is not to say he is not a good player, but he is not worth 7.5 million.
Honestly I don't believe any player is worth 7.5 million or even 1 million to play a sport for a living. Give me 100,000 I'll go out there and take a few hits. But I digress, that's a different topic altogether.
GO HAWKS GO!!!
Let's compare Apples to Apples and Oranges to Oranges. Both Getlaf and Perry are forwards, Campbell is a defenseman.
Let's look at the guys in Campbell's Salary bracket (based on Cap Hit)and who play the same position.
Chara - $7.5 million
Lidstrom - $7.45 million
Campbell - $7.14 million
Niedermayer - $6.75 million
Bouwmeester - $6.68 million
Boyle - $6.67 million
Redden - $6.5 million
Phaneuf - $6.5 million
Jovonovski - $6.5 million
Timonen - $6.34 million
Offensively and defensively speaking Campbell is the top 5 of this group. Even if you consider off Redden, Timonen, and Jovonovski as guys who have hyper inflated contract, I take Campbell over all of them.
And Campbell can't see the ice well?? Really?? Do you think the tie for 5th in the league in assists for defensemen is because he skates the puck to his team mates? The guy has averaged over 40 assists a season over the past 5 years.
That seems to be a pretty excessive assist total for a guy who doesn't see the puck very well.
Is he overpaid?? Probably. Is he a pylon?? Nope, not at all. He is an elite, top teir defenseman in the league today. At the very least, offensively speaking. But he's not a liability on his side of the rink either.
I take Campbell over Seabrook.
I think every defenseman on that list is overpaid so maybe I'm biased. Closest player's on your list to his salary is Chara, Niedermayer or Lindstrom based on the C and/or leadership qualities. This list of signings are proof the NHL has not fixed the system for players salaries. I know a team was willing to pay this amount, therefore thats what they are worth, but wow ,IMO way too much money compared to other comparable players salaries. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 14:19:02
quote:
Originally posted by bounty2k3
I as well agree that Niemi is not a #1 goaltender, yet. Which is why I said give him next season he will be ready for the Chicago position. We have a great defensive core that will be able to help him out.
As for Campbell, for him to make 7.5 million, he should be getting numbers like Perry and Getzlaf from Anaheim, not 40 points a season. As well as a little more defensive minded as well. He can skate very well but can he see the ice as much as people think? I don't think he can to be honest. This is not to say he is not a good player, but he is not worth 7.5 million.
Honestly I don't believe any player is worth 7.5 million or even 1 million to play a sport for a living. Give me 100,000 I'll go out there and take a few hits. But I digress, that's a different topic altogether.
GO HAWKS GO!!!
Let's compare Apples to Apples and Oranges to Oranges. Both Getlaf and Perry are forwards, Campbell is a defenseman.
Let's look at the guys in Campbell's Salary bracket (based on Cap Hit)and who play the same position.
Chara - $7.5 million
Lidstrom - $7.45 million
Campbell - $7.14 million
Niedermayer - $6.75 million
Bouwmeester - $6.68 million
Boyle - $6.67 million
Redden - $6.5 million
Phaneuf - $6.5 million
Jovonovski - $6.5 million
Timonen - $6.34 million
Offensively and defensively speaking Campbell is the top 5 of this group. Even if you consider off Redden, Timonen, and Jovonovski as guys who have hyper inflated contract, I take Campbell over all of them.
And Campbell can't see the ice well?? Really?? Do you think the tie for 5th in the league in assists for defensemen is because he skates the puck to his team mates? The guy has averaged over 40 assists a season over the past 5 years.
That seems to be a pretty excessive assist total for a guy who doesn't see the puck very well.
Is he overpaid?? Probably. Is he a pylon?? Nope, not at all. He is an elite, top teir defenseman in the league today. At the very least, offensively speaking. But he's not a liability on his side of the rink either.
I take Campbell over Seabrook. |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 14:01:43
quote:
Originally posted by bounty2k3
I as well agree that Niemi is not a #1 goaltender, yet. Which is why I said give him next season he will be ready for the Chicago position. We have a great defensive core that will be able to help him out.
As for Campbell, for him to make 7.5 million, he should be getting numbers like Perry and Getzlaf from Anaheim, not 40 points a season. As well as a little more defensive minded as well. He can skate very well but can he see the ice as much as people think? I don't think he can to be honest. This is not to say he is not a good player, but he is not worth 7.5 million.
Honestly I don't believe any player is worth 7.5 million or even 1 million to play a sport for a living. Give me 100,000 I'll go out there and take a few hits. But I digress, that's a different topic altogether.
GO HAWKS GO!!!
Bounty2k3 you do know Campbell is a Dman right. You cant compare him to Getzlaf or Perry. But I do agree he is way over paid. If someone suggested he was a 5-6 million a year player I would have no problem |
| bounty2k3 |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 13:09:17
I as well agree that Niemi is not a #1 goaltender, yet. Which is why I said give him next season he will be ready for the Chicago position. We have a great defensive core that will be able to help him out.
As for Campbell, for him to make 7.5 million, he should be getting numbers like Perry and Getzlaf from Anaheim, not 40 points a season. As well as a little more defensive minded as well. He can skate very well but can he see the ice as much as people think? I don't think he can to be honest. This is not to say he is not a good player, but he is not worth 7.5 million.
Honestly I don't believe any player is worth 7.5 million or even 1 million to play a sport for a living. Give me 100,000 I'll go out there and take a few hits. But I digress, that's a different topic altogether.
GO HAWKS GO!!! |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 11:42:32
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Is Campbell really that bad??
I just don't get where people get off talking about Campbell as worse than Seabrook??? Firstly, Seabrook gets the benefit of playing many of his minutes with Keith, who is one of the 10 best defensemen in the league today in my opinion.
Furthermore, Campbell is playing the same number of minutes as Seabrook, has produced a little more offensively and it only down 1 in the +/- department.
They are pretty close to the same with the exception of Seabrook being a bit younger. Furthermore, I still think Campbell is one of the 5 top skaters in the league. Few are a fluid and smooth on the blades.
Sure, I agree that the $7.5 million a season should put Campbell as one of the best in the league. I agree he is not, but he's also not that far off.
It's just sick. Seasons of 52, 62, 48, and 44 in the past 4 years and on pace for 45 points this season. I bet there were be 10 -15 teams in the league that do not have a 40+ point defensemen in their line up. Chicago will more than likely have 3.
Campbell's contract has made it virtually impossible to trade him, but so what?? By signing Keith long term, Chicago is pretty much saying they will sacrifice Seabrook. But Campbell is not a step down at all!!
Huet, well that might be another story. I though the deal to bring him to Chicago was interesting as well. But Niemi has a grand total of 10 NHL games. He was barely above average in the AHL and some are willing to sell the farm for him??? Good luck. That's a prime recipie for having a brilliant team not success. Goaltending is key to winning. The keeper doesn't have to be the best in the league, but they need to be a legitmate #1 and clutch when it counts.
10 NHL games means nothing. I have about as much experience to be a #1 keeper as Niemi does.
I wouldn't even call Niemi a proven #2 yet. Who is available who is better than Huet at this time with a record and experience similar and cheaper? Not a whole lot to pick from and there are other teams in worse positions than Chicago goaltender wise on the hunt as well. I figure if it dont happen in the offseason Huet is here for this and next season. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 11:29:33
Is Campbell really that bad??
I just don't get where people get off talking about Campbell as worse than Seabrook??? Firstly, Seabrook gets the benefit of playing many of his minutes with Keith, who is one of the 10 best defensemen in the league today in my opinion.
Furthermore, Campbell is playing the same number of minutes as Seabrook, has produced a little more offensively and it only down 1 in the +/- department.
They are pretty close to the same with the exception of Seabrook being a bit younger. Furthermore, I still think Campbell is one of the 5 top skaters in the league. Few are a fluid and smooth on the blades.
Sure, I agree that the $7.5 million a season should put Campbell as one of the best in the league. I agree he is not, but he's also not that far off.
It's just sick. Seasons of 52, 62, 48, and 44 in the past 4 years and on pace for 45 points this season. I bet there were be 10 -15 teams in the league that do not have a 40+ point defensemen in their line up. Chicago will more than likely have 3.
Campbell's contract has made it virtually impossible to trade him, but so what?? By signing Keith long term, Chicago is pretty much saying they will sacrifice Seabrook. But Campbell is not a step down at all!!
Huet, well that might be another story. I though the deal to bring him to Chicago was interesting as well. But Niemi has a grand total of 10 NHL games. He was barely above average in the AHL and some are willing to sell the farm for him??? Good luck. That's a prime recipie for having a brilliant team not success. Goaltending is key to winning. The keeper doesn't have to be the best in the league, but they need to be a legitmate #1 and clutch when it counts.
10 NHL games means nothing. I have about as much experience to be a #1 keeper as Niemi does. |
| bounty2k3 |
Posted - 12/10/2009 : 09:29:21
I agree with the signing of these 3 players. Toews, Kane and Keith are a part of the core group. I would shop Huet to the fullest extent and wouldn't really care what I get in return, anyone is better than him. Campbell was a stupid signing, earning what I believe is a 7.5 million contract per year. I could be wrong on that but don't have the time at the moment to look it up, Chicago would be a lot better shape if Huet and Campbell were gone. Niemi right now is playing like a young Khabibulin. Next year he's ready for the #1 spot. Campbell is on the second line of defense and is earning the same amount as Keith and Seabrook put together and really isn't all that everyone is saying he is.
GO HAWKS GO!!! |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 13:57:30
quote:
Originally posted by Leafs81
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I think top to bottom the contracts are on par with their skill, age, and productivitiy. Kane/Toews are a level below the $8-10 million Ovechkins/Crosby/Malkin's of the world so they money is right.
Keith is on par today but will be a steal in about 5 years.
Do you really think any D-man is worth 8 million a year? He is good but 8 million? How many good D-man can you sign for an 8 Million dollar a year player. 4-5 I mean thats more than Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Pronger, Chara, Kaberle, Niedermayer, Lidstrom, Markov, Gonchar, Boyle and Green. You could sign 2 of some of these guys for that salary. I know its front loaded, but that is only to allow an easy buyout at term end of contract if value declines.
I really dont have a problem with Toews and Kanes contracts. I go so far as to say on another team they might have been able to demand higher. Had they been free agents Im sure Colorado or NYI would have bet the farm on either of these guys.
Duncan Keith will get payed 5.538 million for the next 12 years, far from the 8 millions you're talking about.
I don't know how they will keep all Kane, Toews, Keith, Hossa, Campbell and Huet next year. Thats around 36 millions in cap hit between those 6 players. And that's without counting Sharp, Bolland, Versteeg, Bufyglien, Seabrook and Barker all having a cap hit over 3 millions each.
They better find a way of getting rid of Campbell and Huet.
Sorry link to CBC story pegged the next 3 years at 8 million. I double checked with NHL numbers and your right at $5.538 million. Must have been an error on CBC's part and was the reason i started this Topic. |
| Leafs81 |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 13:26:08
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I think top to bottom the contracts are on par with their skill, age, and productivitiy. Kane/Toews are a level below the $8-10 million Ovechkins/Crosby/Malkin's of the world so they money is right.
Keith is on par today but will be a steal in about 5 years.
Do you really think any D-man is worth 8 million a year? He is good but 8 million? How many good D-man can you sign for an 8 Million dollar a year player. 4-5 I mean thats more than Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Pronger, Chara, Kaberle, Niedermayer, Lidstrom, Markov, Gonchar, Boyle and Green. You could sign 2 of some of these guys for that salary. I know its front loaded, but that is only to allow an easy buyout at term end of contract if value declines.
I really dont have a problem with Toews and Kanes contracts. I go so far as to say on another team they might have been able to demand higher. Had they been free agents Im sure Colorado or NYI would have bet the farm on either of these guys.
Duncan Keith will get payed 5.538 million for the next 12 years, far from the 8 millions you're talking about.
I don't know how they will keep all Kane, Toews, Keith, Hossa, Campbell and Huet next year. Thats around 36 millions in cap hit between those 6 players. And that's without counting Sharp, Bolland, Versteeg, Bufyglien, Seabrook and Barker all having a cap hit over 3 millions each.
They better find a way of getting rid of Campbell and Huet. |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 10:37:02
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I think top to bottom the contracts are on par with their skill, age, and productivitiy. Kane/Toews are a level below the $8-10 million Ovechkins/Crosby/Malkin's of the world so they money is right.
Keith is on par today but will be a steal in about 5 years.
Do you really think any D-man is worth 8 million a year? He is good but 8 million? How many good D-man can you sign for an 8 Million dollar a year player. 4-5 I mean thats more than Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Pronger, Chara, Kaberle, Niedermayer, Lidstrom, Markov, Gonchar, Boyle and Green. You could sign 2 of some of these guys for that salary. I know its front loaded, but that is only to allow an easy buyout at term end of contract if value declines.
I really dont have a problem with Toews and Kanes contracts. I go so far as to say on another team they might have been able to demand higher. Had they been free agents Im sure Colorado or NYI would have bet the farm on either of these guys. |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 12/06/2009 : 11:25:55
Still dont like the long term contracts like Keith's but I agree he is their number one and of that group is the one to hold onto (Seabrook a close second). Also the Kane and Toews deals are right on par with their talent level similar to the contracts of Perry and Getzlaf who i think coulda got a few extra million over the five years but still a good deal for both teams.
Getzlaf 5yr/ $26.625 mil
Perry 5yr/ $26.625 mil
Toews 5yr/ $ 31.5mil
Kane 5yr/ $31.5 mil
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/03/2009 : 16:31:48
I think top to bottom the contracts are on par with their skill, age, and productivitiy. Kane/Toews are a level below the $8-10 million Ovechkins/Crosby/Malkin's of the world so they money is right.
Keith is on par today but will be a steal in about 5 years. |
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