| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Guest2724 |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 06:51:47
Its been two seasons now that Kessel has been with the Leafs. Back to back 30 goal years and without argument the best player on the team. From and individual perspective I think Burke is quite satisfied with his performance, However its also back to back years of missing the playoffs.
So far the Bruins have recieved Tyler Seguin who has had a somewhat dissapointing season considering his number 2 overall status and Jared Knight who I know little about. Boston also gets Toronto's draft pick this year ( prob around 9th - 12th pick)
What do fans think of this trade now? Was it good value? Would you still make it knowing how things turned out? My personal opinion is Boston would be an unstoppable team with Kessel currently in their lineup( they are still a pretty good team without him) and the trade probably hurt them in the short term. |
| 24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TheRC |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 08:44:30
I don't see this deal as being bad for either team. The Leafs paid a steep price for Kessel, but he is exactly what the team needed. Boston moved a player who, despite his skill, was unhappy and didn't fit within the salary cap, and they got a bunch of good picks in return.
I would argue that the eventual impact of those draft picks, unless one of them turns out to be a game-breaking, cup winning, Crosby or Gretzky type player (and that isn't likely) does not matter. Boston was already looking good, and this deal allowed them to keep their core intact. The extra young talent in the system allowed them to move a few picks for a rental player to help them make a run at the cup. I love Kaberle, but it's yet to be seen if he'll make a major difference in this year's playoffs. (I wish him luck!)
This arguement that without the Kessel deal the Leafs would now have Hall and be on their way to another 1st overall pick isn't wrong, but I don't really understand the attention given to it. Sure, Pittsburg and Chicago have recently won a Cup or two after several years of embarassingly bad hockey and very high picks. But alongside those championship teams we could also list examples of teams like Washington, Tampa and LA who are much better after years of high drafting, but still have not turned their young talent into playoff success, or Columbus and St. Louis who haven't turned years of high picks into anything at all. Edmonton and NYI have been drafting high for a few years now and they still really, really suck. I expect both to get better soon, (EDM much better) but I have a hard time predicting a Stanley Cup, or even a playoff run, any time in the next couple years for either team. In short, tanking for draft picks has worked, but in no way is it guaranteed to work.
As a Leaf fan, would I like having a young star like Hall on my team, and dreams of a first over-all pick to get me through the summer? Hell yes. But I'll be honest, I've had way more fun watching the young team Burke has assembled try (even though it looks now like they are all but guaranteed to fail) to scratch and claw their way into that last playoff spot than I would as an Oilers fan telling myself: "Ok, in three years I'm probably going to have a team worth watching."
Within a little more than two years the Leafs have gone from a tired, crappy old team to a young team that is only going to get better. Even after several key players struggled early in the season, and the team racked up losses before realizing that Reimer is the goalie they thought they had in Gusstavson, I'd be willing to bet I could find enough examples of crushing mistakes made by Mike Komisarek alone that would put the Leafs in a playoff spot right now. Their best players are in their early 20's and are starting to learn to play together as a team. They have a reliable goaltender for the first time since the lockout (let's hope he stays that way!) They have a few decent prospects in the system and cap room to add a free agent or two. I'm not saying I predict a Stanley Cup next season, but I'd happily wager that the Leafs will be a playoff team next year, and they look set to keep improving for years to come. Kessel is a big part of that immediate improvement, and as a fan, I for one would MUCH rather be watching the current Leaf team than a bunch of highly praised but inexperienced rookies who are going to spend the next 2 or 3 years in the basement before they can start playing well. Last place sucks, and props to Burke for manning up and digging out of that hole as quickly as possible. It's April 5th and I get to watch a meaningful hockey game tonight. I'll take it.
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
| Guest4278 |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 20:52:47
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Kaberle to Boston for a 16th pick and 23rd pick
Kessel to Toronto for a 2nd pick, 10th pick, and 32nd pick.
So how does this say the deals are comparable?? You throw out this 'the deal is the same but the positions are different.' Exactly right, I would take the picks Boston got over the picks Toronto without much thought at all!
Duke only reads and answer what he wants to read. He won't have any logical answer to that question. You can fly to the moon on Duke's hot air. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 17:16:24
Yes, P. Cherelli has done a wonderful with Boston...hopefully leaf fans will have a good team to root for next season and greater teams in the future.
I`m cheering for Boston along with Canadian teams, Boston does have a Newfoundlander in the line-up you know.
Boston / Chicago...final 2....Chicago in 6 games, too much speed for Boston to handle. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 17:06:35
Beans i think people get an unfair wrap when they become a part of the maple leafs organzation because of the spotlight on Toronto.
I`m not by no means a Burke suck up...nor am i a Burke hater, i just would like to give the man a fair chance. He did a wonderful job in bringing in some key peices in the Ducks cup win. Without Pronger and S. Neid ( which he brought in ) no way in hell the Ducks win a stanley cup..why can`t anyone credit him for this?
Did he not swing deals at the draft to obtain both Sedins ? What would Vancouver have without them and Kesler ?
I didn`t say Colbourne IS the same player as Seguin...i said he may become as good as Seguin....who is to say he won`t ? If the scouts knew how good Getzlaf and Perry would become, do you think they would have been drafted in the top 5 instead as far back as they were ?
As for Burke only having Ryan, Getzlaf, Perry and Hillier signed when he left...maybe this is smart, really who cares about the rest ? all replaceable parts left over, ( for the most part ).
Anyway the reason i brought up the kaberle trade was to compare it to the kessel trade....Toronto has a long term valuable asset from the kessel trade....Boston may end up with nothing from the kaberle deal.... Both deals involved 2 ( 1st round picks - one player already drafted )...yes Boston`s picks are higher, but they did lose kessel who was a 5th overall pick. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 16:56:43
Duke, Boston and TO will basically pick in each others spots. That means Boston will get around 10th and TO will pick around 23rd.
Kaberle to Boston for a 16th pick and 23rd pick
Kessel to Toronto for a 2nd pick, 10th pick, and 32nd pick.
So how does this say the deals are comparable?? You throw out this 'the deal is the same but the positions are different.' Exactly right, I would take the picks Boston got over the picks Toronto without much thought at all!
Finally, as Peter Cherelli has built a rock solid team, I have a little more faith in him than you might. With that, I make the strong assumption that Kaberle re-signs in the offseason. He may not, but I would think it is more likely for a re-sign than Kaberle to go to free agency. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 16:28:23
Guest 4278...you wrote
You lack details about the 1st round picks. Where exactly will Boston's 1st round picks? Top 5? Top 10? No? Somewhere in the bottom 5? So you would compare pick #2 with pick #25? Please give me an iota of intellengence.
my post
Basically the same return as the kessel deal ( two 1st round picks and a second ), the only difference being Bostons picks are higher...guess you missed the details
couple of 2nd rd picks ? for kaberle
Joe Colbourne was picked 16 th overall....2nd rd ??
right now TO will pick 23 rd...at least it is 1st rd....lotta good players availiable here, if a team gets lucky.
You say kessel is not a building peice, maybe not right now for the leafs but in time i think he will. With 2 good linemates this guy should really light it up. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 16:23:34
Yes Duke, but does Boston not have Seguin and this years approx 10th over all pick???
If we are to say that Kaberle wasn't going to resign with TO and Kessel wasn't going to resign with Boston, then would you rather have Joe Colburne and the approx 25th overall pick or Tyler Seguin, the 10th overall pick, and that Jared Knight kid???
It's not like Boston magically loses a draft pick if Kaberle walks. The deal is already made regardless of Kaberle's decision in July. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 16:06:42
Toxx, what has Boston`s ( Toronto`s ) 1st round pick which they received from the kessel deal have to do with the kaberle trade ?
Does Toronto not hold Bostons former 1st rd pick ( Joe Colbourne ) and its 1st rd pick this year even if kaberle walks ? |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 04/04/2011 : 02:11:19
[
If kaberle walks Toronto will have two 1st round picks in the bank...Boston will have Zero. Hows that for a deal ?? Imagine if kaberle comes back to the leafs, Burke picks up two 1st round picks for free !!!...of course he is a lousy GM, just look at Vancouver and Anaheim for proof.
[/quote]
Boston still holds Toronto's 1st round pick this year. |
| Guest4278 |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 20:30:47
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
People say this trade isn`t fair to the leafs, they did get a 30 goal scorer for many seasons to come. What about how fair the Kaberle trade is to Boston ?? No - one brings this one up.
Boston gets a 2 month, plus playoffs rental who is 33 - 34 years old.......Toronto gets a former 1st round pick ( Joe Colbourne ) who is a 6`5`` center with skill, this guy may be just as good as Seguin. Leafs also get a second 1st round draft pick. ( that two 1st rd. picks ) plus maybe a 2nd rd pick to boot.
Basically the same return as the kessel deal ( two 1st round picks and a second ), the only difference being Bostons picks are higher. I didn`t see anyone jump all over Peter. C like they did Burke !!...
Glad you bring this up. You accuse Beans of not giving enough details about Kessel's stats but then do the same thing. You lack details about the 1st round picks. Where exactly will Boston's 1st round picks? Top 5? Top 10? No? Somewhere in the bottom 5? So you would compare pick #2 with pick #25? Please give me an iota of intellengence.
Now we get to Joe Colborne. What about him? May want to compare him to that other prospect Jared Knight that TO gave up.
Kaberle trade was made to help take the team to a cup. Boston identified a hole and plugged it with the best available option for pretty much second round picks. Kessel is not the possible missing piece to bring TO the cup. He is the missing piece to bring TO from the bottom of the pile. Is that better perspective of the Kaberle trade vs the Kessel trade?
So to keep it simple so the blue glasses will still understand: Adding Kaberle to BOS = chance to win the cup.
Adding Kessel to TO = avoid being bottom feeders.
What would TO be willing to give up for a chance at winning the cup if they gave a 2nd overall pick plus a top 10 (maybe 12) and a prospect so they don't have to be bottom feeders?
And lastly, this is about the Kessel not Kaberle trade. NIce attempt at deflection. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 18:56:20
1 - How is Joe Colbourne anywhere close to Tyler Seguin?? In what world is that even close to reasonable? No reputable scout or analyst has come anywhere close to saying anything like that. Nice try.
2 - As one poster wrote, without Kessel last season the Leafs would have most likely got the #1 pick being Hall. Without Kessel and replaced with Hall the Leafs could have easily finished at or near the bottom again meaning Nuggent Hopkins or Larsson. Yep, that's complete garbage hey??
3 - If you took 5 second and did a little research you would see that there is only twpo roster players for Anaheim today that was brought in by Burke and that is Bobby Ryan(drafted) and Jonas Hiller (undrafted free agent). Every other player was either there before Burke got there or aquired after he left. Vancouver has 5 players on that team. Granted he drafted the Sedin's and Kesler, and that is solid. However, to give Burke any credit for Anaheim is a complete joke. Everyone forgets that when Burke cut tail and ran from Anaheim that entire team with the exception of Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, and Hiller were UFA's or RFA's. Great management when 19 of your 23 roster players are unsigned.
4 - You are absolutely correct that the deal for Kaberle is very similar in value to the deal with Kessel. The difference being is that Cherelli does not over estimate his team when making deals involving draft picks. He has a squad that is talented enough to win the division today and in the future and the sacrifice of the draft picks is less impactful on a team full of talent already. But if Kaberle does walk than the risk that Cherelli took was all for not and people will attack him as they did Burke.
5 - There is a spotlight on TO and really, it's annoying when people complain about it. People still take about deals that Mike Milbury was a part of and the Lindros trade as just a few examples of deals gone bad. They weren't part of TO were they??
Seriously, I want to agree with you some of the time but with stuff like this is just not in me. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 13:34:54
how were kessel's stats as a rookie... how were joe thornton's ? we can go on and on and on and on,,, he's just a rookie.......... a steal hahahahahahahahhHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
|
| The Duke |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 13:17:23
Polish i agree Crosby doesn`t have top notch linemates, but kessel ain`t no Crosby, not too many are, Crosby is among the best to ever play the game...kessel doesn`t fit into this category.
Oilear, you are absolutely right, this topic is severe over - kill. If the leafs weren`t involved in this trade, it wouldn`t be here still.
People say this trade isn`t fair to the leafs, they did get a 30 goal scorer for many seasons to come. What about how fair the Kaberle trade is to Boston ?? No - one brings this one up.
Boston gets a 2 month, plus playoffs rental who is 33 - 34 years old.......Toronto gets a former 1st round pick ( Joe Colbourne ) who is a 6`5`` center with skill, this guy may be just as good as Seguin. Leafs also get a second 1st round draft pick. ( that two 1st rd. picks ) plus maybe a 2nd rd pick to boot.
Basically the same return as the kessel deal ( two 1st round picks and a second ), the only difference being Bostons picks are higher. I didn`t see anyone jump all over Peter. C like they did Burke !!...
If kaberle walks Toronto will have two 1st round picks in the bank...Boston will have Zero. Hows that for a deal ?? Imagine if kaberle comes back to the leafs, Burke picks up two 1st round picks for free !!!...of course he is a lousy GM, just look at Vancouver and Anaheim for proof. |
| Oilearl |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 12:40:10
Guest 2724 are you Brian Burke??
This has been overkill on this subject time will tell; for now Boston doesn't look any worse after trading Kessel and they have future depth as a result.
Toronto misses the playoffs again. |
| polishexpress |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 12:10:27
Duke, so what about his linemates? Tell me who Crosby plays with? Usually his best linemate was Sergei Gonchar.
I think your argument is a really good point, but don't blame it ALL on linemates. If anything, Kessel should have made the guys around him better players, but I have to concede, going from Savard to Bozak was a huge factor in Kessel's decline in numbers. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 10:58:35
Beans your stats on kessel are true but the stats are distorted in reality. Marginal hockey viewers ( who don`t know the difference ) will read your post and just simply see these numbers and base their opinion on kessel by these numbers.
kessel has re-gressed in his goal scoring !!! this is a distorted truth.
When kessel had his 36 goal season he played with ( argueably at the time ) maybe the best set - up man in hockey ( M. Savard ). Why don`t you post these facts ?...so the reader can base their opinion of kessel on real facts.
Yes kessel had 36 goals 3 years ago playing with a top team and true 1st line center.
This season kessel has 30 goals on a non - playoff team with his center ice - man having 31 points in 79 games, with a +/- of - 28. At one point i think kessel had 14 points in 10 games ( something close to this ) and during this stretch i believe Bozak ( his supposed set - up man ) had something like 2 points...what a joke.
So the real question here is...are you re-gressing when you score 30 goals playing with a very good AHL, 3rd line ( at best ) NHL center ice - man.........compared to scoring 36 goals along side one of the best set - up men in the NHL ??
Personally, i predict ( along with playing a full season with Lupul ) if Burke can bring a 1st line center to Toronto.....kessel will soon have a 40 - 45 goal season. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 10:19:13
I think Toxxik hit the head on the nail in his first post.
This deal happened because Kessel wanted out of BOS, or at least was not willing to take a discount to stay. Had they been forced to sign Kessel at 5-6M a year, they would likely not be where they are now.
BOS are up against the cap, and have been the last few years. That 5-6M they would have had to pay Kessel would have forced them to part with more pieces of their current team - Thomas would be gone for sure, likely there would have been no room for Horton, maybe no extension for Chara. Supporting bits would have gone away, or had to have been cheaper. Instead, they part with the player and his salary, and build a team with the money they saved.
I seriously don't think that BOS would be where they are now if they still had Kessel in the lineup. They were probably going to get that much from any team in return - the fact that they traded him to TOR and thus got pretty high draft picks in return is a bonus for them. The real winner of this trade is Kessel - he got a deal from TOR that BOS would never have paid. |
| ryan93 |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 10:07:53
quote:
[i]Originally posted by The Duke[/iIf Toronto won a few more games, Boston could have ended up with 3 NHL players who are not game changers, so Toronto wins the trade hands down and this thread does not exist.
I wonder how much worse the Leafs would of been last season if they didn't have Kessel's 30 goals? Who knows, maybe instead of finishing 29th they would of fell to 30th & Taylor Hall would be a Maple Leaf right now  |
| The Duke |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 09:57:46
This subject has been beaten to death already, everyone has already given their 2 cents worth on this trade and i`m sure no-ones opinion has changed.
People will have to wait and see how good T. Seguin will become before passing final judgement. In games i watched the Leafs / Bruins this season, Seguin showed flashes of brilliance. I think he will become a great player, this guy has good size also.
I will again bring up the point...the trade was not kessel for Seguin, it was kessel for two 1st round picks ( plus a 2nd ) who ended up being Seguin. Burke dropped the ball as to where TO would finish in the standings, that was his huge mistake.
If Toronto won a few more games, Boston could have ended up with 3 NHL players who are not game changers, so Toronto wins the trade hands down and this thread does not exist.
This debate exists over circumstances which were unseen for sure to anyone at the time of the trade. Theres no way Burke makes this trade if he knew TO finishes 29 th over-all. Crystal balls are a myth so these calls are gut feelings.
One final thought on this matter, no matter who Boston receives in this trade, Toronto received ( what looks like ) an hockey player who can possibly push the NHL record for most concecutive 30 goal seasons all - time. He is only what, 22 - 23 years old and already has 3 concecutive 30 goal seasons...not too shabby.
This guy really picked it up after the Lupul pick-up, a bonafied team-mate...i can`t wait to see what he will do when he receives a real first line center to play with, gonna be interesting. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 09:47:22
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I'm not saying it isn't really early for Seguin - it is - but Seguin was given a long look on Boston's second line if I remember correctly. He played his way to the third line.
Long ago, when everyone was killing Burke for the trade, I postulated that Seguin might only turn into a player of Stajan's status . . . a guy who can get you 60 points with the right players and situation, but is probably more of a 45 point guy. Serviceable, but no star.
Kessel on the other hand has gotten loads better than earlier in the season . . . started off so disappointing, but in the last few months has won quite a few games for the Leafers. He still has a ways to go, but I like that he is showing positive improvement.
At this point, it's a total steal for Toronto, but as we all said, this trade can only be rightly judged years from now.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
You are joking right?? This is the kind of comment that instigates the 'plan the parade route' comments as it is far from reasonable, logical, or reality. A total steal?? You are comparing Kessel, and established NHL player of 4 seasons, to a rookie. You are also comparing a sniper/goal scorer type player to a two way forward type. You claim that Kessel is improving when his performance and production has been virtually identical for the past 3 seasons. In fact, as a goal scorer he has regressed. 3 years ago he had 36 goals in 70 games, 2 years ago he has 30 goals in 70 games, and this season he is at 30 goals in 79 games. Where is the improvement??
Just to throw a litlte something else in there, Seguin has virtually the same stats on Boston as Kessel did as a rookie. Yep, total steal.
Most importantly, Toronto is still not a playoff team and are still missing the talent to get there. Not only was this deal Seguin, but the deal is also who ever the pick is this year. Granted it is not looking like a 2nd lottery pick, but it will most likely be a top 10 pick.
I still say the price was too high and I think it's laughable to think the Leafs have totally stolen anything(even to this point) when Boston is as good or better than with Kessel and the Leafs are still not a playoff team. However, I can totally agree that the true measure of this trade is still 2-3 years away. |
| ryan93 |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 09:25:38
Money has absolutely nothing to do with which player is the best on the team.
I didn't like this trade when it was made, and i still don't from a Leafs standpoint. Don't get me wrong, i like Kessel, but for a team in a rebuild to give up that many high end picks is tough.
Sure, there is always the possiblity that Tyler Seguin won't develop into the top line player he was touted to be. But i dont see that being the case. The Bruins are one of the best teams in the NHL and they can afford the luxury of bringing him along slowly. While his 21 points in 71 games doesn't appear that impessive on paper, keep in mind every top prospect doesn't have the immediate impact guys like Skinner, Hall, Crosby, etc have had. Look at the Bruins last top pick, Joe Thornton. In his rookie season, in 55 games he had 3 goals & 4 assists. Look at Vincent Lecavalier, who had 28 points in 82 games, etc. |
| Guest2158 |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 08:20:08
"without argument the best player on the team"
hahahahahahahahahaha. Right.
30-31-62 and a -21 for $5.4 Mil.
Nikolai Kulemin:
29-27-56 and a +9 for $2.5 Mil.
Mikhail Grabovski
29-29-58 and a +15 for $2.9 Mil.
Kulemin + Grabovski = 1 Phil Kessel.
I know who I'd rather have on my team.
hahaha...without argument, right.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9Pzyu-v3Yn4/TNY0qo5KieI/AAAAAAAAAB8/9ANACGtCQxo/s1600/Phil Kessel Missing 2.JPG |
| n/a |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 08:02:22
I'm not saying it isn't really early for Seguin - it is - but Seguin was given a long look on Boston's second line if I remember correctly. He played his way to the third line.
Long ago, when everyone was killing Burke for the trade, I postulated that Seguin might only turn into a player of Stajan's status . . . a guy who can get you 60 points with the right players and situation, but is probably more of a 45 point guy. Serviceable, but no star.
Kessel on the other hand has gotten loads better than earlier in the season . . . started off so disappointing, but in the last few months has won quite a few games for the Leafers. He still has a ways to go, but I like that he is showing positive improvement.
At this point, it's a total steal for Toronto, but as we all said, this trade can only be rightly judged years from now.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 07:54:37
What you are forgetting about is, Kessel wanted out and was trying to hold Boston hostage with stupid salary demands and forced their hand to deal him. Would they be better with him? Possibly, they won the division without him, maybe 3rd in the league and not 6th? Maybe. As for Seguin, a disappointing season? By who's standards? The kid is only getting 8 - 10 min per game due to the depth on the team. He doesn't get Hall minutes so, Boston is quite happy with him from all reports that i've read. Jared Knight is another up and commer that should pan out to a very decent player. Toronto got what they wanted, a pure sniper. Problem is, they haven't built anything around him. 2 yrs of Bozak's and the likes isn't using Kessel's talents to the max. BB will have to do something in the off season to rectify this and i'm sure he will. Next season will be a more telling year for Seguin, i've said all along they should've sent him back down to play if he wasn't going to play here. He's got sweet hands and has gotten some highlight goals playing with high talent Thornton and Campbell ( ) ! Marchand is wicked and next season maybe he'll be paired with Seguin on a regular shift, time will tell. The Leafs will compete for a playoff spot earlier than Feb next year and the Bruins will keep rolling. So as many in the hockey world have said, we're a few years away from who won this deal. Kessel will get his 30+ and Seguin will develope into hopefully what he's projected to be. So, I don't know how you can possibly say it hurt Boston short term, given the standings. |
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