| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| FutureKesler |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 06:34:54
Who's gonna win the Hart this year? Daniel Sedin? Stamkos? Yandle? Thomas? Discuss.
Kesler is the TRUE Nucks Captain. |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 06:06:40
MVP should be awarded to the player most important to his team for an entire season. So, that would cancel Toews out. By the way if you include Toews how does Corey Perry not get any recognition, 5th in league scoring without Getzlaf for 2 months, while Toews has been hot the second half, his linemate Patrick Sharp has been Chicago's best player over the course of the entire season.
Regardless, the nominees are D Sedin, Stamkos & either Price or Lundqvist.
For all those making resons why Sedin will not win due to his brother. Stamkos has St. Louis who contributes on the vast majority of his goals and is also 4th in the league so your point is moot.
The winner should be either Lundqvist of Price as both teams have been hit by injuries and both are the backbone of their teams success. However, based upon history the unanimous winner should be Daniel Sedin
In youth we learn; in age we understand |
| Guest1750 |
Posted - 03/18/2011 : 15:16:14
Hart Trophy 2010/2011 Winner = ?
As of March 18th, Daniel Sedin is:
1st in Scoring: 92
2nd in Goals: 38 Gs
3rd in Assists: 54
5th in Plus Minus: +26
Tim Thomas could make a case for the Hart:
1st in SV%: .938
1st in GAA: 2.03
3rd in SOs: 7
6th in Wins: 29
FYI the last goalie to win the Hart was Jose Theodore's back in 2001/2002 with, 30 wins, .931 sv%, 2.11 GAA, with 7 SOs. No defenceman is worthy of the Hart trophy this year.
If Thomas keeps up these numbers, it's hard to ignore the fact he was off everyones radar, as most people pegged Rask to be Boston's starter this year.
Sedin or Thomas? I say Sedin, since Thomas will win the Vezina and Jennings trophy.
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| nuxfan |
Posted - 03/18/2011 : 08:41:24
quote:
my point was that if you were to take either one of the Sedin's (or Kessler) off that team, would the 'Nucks be as good, or close to it? answer: yes
Answer should be: No.
Are you kidding? Take one of the Sedin's or Kesler away from the Canucks and they're just as good as before? How many teams can afford to lose their top players and still be as good as they were before? None. The Canucks are definitely a well balanced and deep team this year, but a lot of that balance comes from having 2 strong top lines. Take one of them away, and what do you have?
The Sedin's and Kesler are an integral part of the Canucks success, and they all bring valuable contributions. Take any one of them away, and everything gets disjointed. How good would the Canucks PP be without Kesler in front of the net - he has absolutely changed that first PP unit this year. How good is one Sedin brother without the other? Sure we had a glimpse last year when Daniel went down and Henrik did well - but that was only 6 weeks out of 10 years. What happens over a whole season?
quote:
Again, i'm just going by history in saying that Daniel very well might win and if not, it's prob Stamkos. Toews simply doesn't have enough points unless suddenly a voting pattern, that's been around for a decade or more, changes?
Yeah, I agree with this as well - the voting pattern is well entrenched, and whether or not you agree with it there it is. This pattern will likely exclude both Toews and Iginla - both of whom have been awesome for their respective teams, but are barely in the top-10 in league scoring. And FutureKesler, there is no way in the world Kesler deserves league-wide MVP.
I didn't agree with Hank getting the trophy last year, and felt that there were others more deserving (Bryzgalov should have won IMO), but it is what it is. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 03/18/2011 : 00:54:16
Iginla anyone?? without Iggy the flames are bsttling Edmonton for last pace MVP much,.,,, i hate this importance on how many points the player has..... sure it may be st patricks day and i may be 10 or 12 pintes of Guinnness under but the true Mvup 's are the guys who carry the entire team ,,, Toews Iginla and Price... f*** off pointss Iggy Price and toews for mvp!
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| Alex116 |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 22:47:41
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4125
my point was that if you were to take either one of the Sedin's (or Kessler) off that team, would the 'Nucks be as good, or close to it? answer: yes. they have a well balanced team from top to bottom. removing either one of Henrik, Daniel, or Kessler probably wouldn't make a HUGE difference.
take either Stamkos or St. Louis off Tampa, would that team be as good, or close to it? answer: probably not.
take away Thomas from Boston.....Toews from Chicago......Richards from Dallas.....etc.....
see my point???
Uh, not really. I mean, i see the point you're trying to make, but i'm not sure i buy it. Again, the MVP is defined as you stated, the player most valuable to his team. Unfortunately, as has been said over and over again, it's not often awarded that way. If it was, you could argue a handful of guys!!! A few people have mentioned Bryzgalov. Take him away from the Coyotes and does Jason Labarbera have them in 4th in the west? Prob not!
Again, i'm just going by history in saying that Daniel very well might win and if not, it's prob Stamkos. Toews simply doesn't have enough points unless suddenly a voting pattern, that's been around for a decade or more, changes? |
| Guest4125 |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 21:26:10
Guest 2712.... how can you discount the Sedin's because they were both healthy all year, yet Stamkos, who plays with St Loius, you feel is still worthy? Is it because Stamkos and St Louis aren't twin brothers? I don't get it?
my point was that if you were to take either one of the Sedin's (or Kessler) off that team, would the 'Nucks be as good, or close to it? answer: yes. they have a well balanced team from top to bottom. removing either one of Henrik, Daniel, or Kessler probably wouldn't make a HUGE difference.
take either Stamkos or St. Louis off Tampa, would that team be as good, or close to it? answer: probably not.
take away Thomas from Boston.....Toews from Chicago......Richards from Dallas.....etc.....
see my point??? |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 20:52:02
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4278
quote:
Originally posted by FutureKesler
[quote]Ryan Kesler has been for the canucks. He's done every thing for them. Kesler should win, but probably won't. Because all of the people in the east haven't really noticed him.
Kesler is the TRUE Nucks Captain.
Oh we in the east know how good Kesler is but we don't have a bias of Kesler is the TRUE Nucks Captain to skew our thinking cap.
I'm going with Price, Daniel and Toews. I'd like Bryz in there but can't put all 3 western players in the ballot.
I love it the same three as me!
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| Guest4278 |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 20:06:03
quote:
Originally posted by FutureKesler
[quote]Ryan Kesler has been for the canucks. He's done every thing for them. Kesler should win, but probably won't. Because all of the people in the east haven't really noticed him.
Kesler is the TRUE Nucks Captain.
Oh we in the east know how good Kesler is but we don't have a bias of Kesler is the TRUE Nucks Captain to skew our thinking cap.
I'm going with Price, Daniel and Toews. I'd like Bryz in there but can't put all 3 western players in the ballot. |
| FutureKesler |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 19:48:25
quote:
the true MVP of the league at this point - I would give it to Price, myself.
Slozo, although I see your logic, Price has not been an elite, "I'm gonna make it impossible for you to score on me" Type of guy like Thomas. I wouldn't give it to Price or Thomas. The Hart goes to the player Judged to be the most valuable to his team. Stamkos hasn't been the most valuble to Tampa, Zetterberg hasn't for Detroit. But.......... Ryan Kesler has been for the canucks. He's done every thing for them. He Kills penalties, is a net presence, a leader and has a helluva wrist shot. He's nearing the 40 goal mark too. Daniel is a contender, but he doesn't do everything like Kes does. Kesler should win, but probably won't. Because all of the people in the east haven't really noticed him.
Kesler is the TRUE Nucks Captain. |
| FutureKesler |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 19:36:49
What about Yandle? He's been a very good player for a decent team. He should at least be in the discussion.
Kesler is the TRUE Nucks Captain. |
| Guest4988 |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 16:33:42
Jonathan Toews !! |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 14:42:53
I agree with Alex. I said in another thread somewhere that there is a close relationship between Hart and Art Ross nominees, and we'll probably see the same this year. You may argue that this is not in the true spirit of the award, but its hard to argue that a player that leads the entire league in scoring is not in some way valuable to their team's success. You have to think that the league leader (perhaps top 2) in points will be at least finalists.
BTW, in 2002, both Theodore and Roy were finalists (along with Iginla), which I think is the only time that 2 goalies have made the finalists for the Hart. However, 2002 was also one of the most lacklustre seasons in recent memory for forwards - Iggy finished with 95-ish points (and was the only player over 40 goals), Naslund with 90, and Bertuzzi was third with 85. I don't think 85 points will get you top-10 this season.
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| Alex116 |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 14:20:37
Pasty, fair enough. As the award is defined, i agree, Toews would be definitely in the running. I just don't see the award going to someone who's averaging just slightly over a ppg and is currently tied for 8th in scoring. Fact of the matter is, they seem to award the Hart to one of the top scorers.
Recent Hart Trophy Winners.....
2010 Henrik Sedin 1st in scoring
2009 Ovechkin 2nd in scoring, 1st in G's (only guy with 50+)
2008 Ovechkin 1st in scoring, 1st in G's with 65!
2007 Crosby 1st in scoring
2006 Thornton 1st in scoring
2005 Lockout
2004 M. St. Loius 1st in scoring
2003 P. Forsberg 1st in scoring
2002 J. Theodore (If i'm not mistaken, Iginla and Naslund were the other two nominees and they were 1 and 2 in scoring)
2001 J. Sakic 2nd in scoring
Notice the pattern? I'm by no means saying your suggestion of Toews sucks, i'm just of the opinion that he won't win and prob won't even get a nomination. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 13:55:04
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Pasty....I like your picks, though i don't think they'll necessarily be the 3, but i don't like your Toews reasoning so much. FTR, i don't think he'll be on the ballot seeing as they seem to lean towards scoring more than the way the award it actually defined. With Toews, why should he get any more votes or recognition for "dragging his team to the playoffs" when he's been there all season. He was there when they weren't playing good too remember.
Guest 2712.... how can you discount the Sedin's because they were both healthy all year, yet Stamkos, who plays with St Loius, you feel is still worthy? Is it because Stamkos and St Louis aren't twin brothers? I don't get it?
FWIW, i don't think Daniel will win nor do i think he deserves to "as the award is defined". However, with the way they award it these days, he will be on the ballot and may just win it. I didn't think Hank was gonna get it last year, so who knows?
here alex i'll try another reasoning since December no NHLer has scored more pointsthan Toews and well december on is clutch time and to my the most valuable player gets hot when the team need him to be and well Chicago deperatly needed something to seperate themsleves from the pack of teams in the west and i think Toews is that something that has made Chicago better than most of those teams in the west battling it out for the last playoff spots,,, and by last i mean 4th through 8th lol,, that is why i see Toews as the most valuable player in the league, and Price as the most Valualbe goalie... i honestly do not see any player or goalie who has meant more to their teams success this year than these two guys,...
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| Alex116 |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 10:44:39
Pasty....I like your picks, though i don't think they'll necessarily be the 3, but i don't like your Toews reasoning so much. FTR, i don't think he'll be on the ballot seeing as they seem to lean towards scoring more than the way the award it actually defined. With Toews, why should he get any more votes or recognition for "dragging his team to the playoffs" when he's been there all season. He was there when they weren't playing good too remember.
Guest 2712.... how can you discount the Sedin's because they were both healthy all year, yet Stamkos, who plays with St Loius, you feel is still worthy? Is it because Stamkos and St Louis aren't twin brothers? I don't get it?
FWIW, i don't think Daniel will win nor do i think he deserves to "as the award is defined". However, with the way they award it these days, he will be on the ballot and may just win it. I didn't think Hank was gonna get it last year, so who knows? |
| Guest2712 |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 10:15:53
here's the way i view it. if you were to remove your MVP candidate from their respecitve team, would that team perform just as well, or would they be worse off?
from that point of view, neither of the Sedin's should win. because they were both healthy all year long. and if one were to be taken away, i don't think it would have a significant impact on the team. same goes with Kessler. they'd still be a strong team without him.
last year was different because Daniel was injured for a fair chunk of the season, and Henrik stepped up his game. take away Henrik from that scenario and no way Vancouver performs as well.
would Tampa be where they are without Stamkos? probably not, so he's a solid candidate.
same arguement could be made for St. Louis
Toews is making a late season push to get a nomination
and I'd even give Richards an outside shot because Dallas wouldn't be near as good this season without him.
from the goalie side you can make cases for Thomas, Price, and probably even Bryzgalov. but i can see only Thomas getting nominated. Price will be up for the Vezina. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 09:59:06
Yeah i'm gonna go out on a limb and say the Hart Nominees should be D Sedin Toews and Price with Price winning easily,, lets face it the habs are a 6th place team that could still challenge for 3rd or 2nd and they would be a lottery team this year if not for Prices heroics.. he is one of the most worked Goalies with the Most wins on a team missing 8 regulars for extented periods of time sur his G.A.A is higher than a few of the other league leaders but so many games like the Washington montreal game 2 nights ago have happend this year where the habs lose 4 -2 and if not for Price the score could easily have beeen 8-2 and you could not have balmed the goalie for that...
Toews is the other one ,, for the las half of the season noone in the league has played better period! this shows how clutch the kid is dragging his team to the playoffs he truly is mr. Everything. he is deffinetly more Valuable than anyone else in the league save maybe Price,,,
It's either Price or Toews in my mind either or is a good choice, anyone esle and the choice was just wrong plane and simple!
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| Pasty7 |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 09:37:14
I agree Slozo if it is a Goalie on the Ballot it will certanly be Price or perhaps Rinne, Thomas has great stats but has much better supporting cast as you said without Price the habs a perhaps a lottery team as opposed to be very strongly holding the 6th place spot and even not to far from moving up in the standings!
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| nuxfan |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 09:28:53
quote:
I too would be shocked to see Henrik on the ballot. My reasoning is exactly why Daniel might not win it as well. I think Henrik rec'd a ton of votes last year for doing what he did when Daniel went down for 18 or so games to injury. Daniel hasn't done anything like this this season (hasn't had to or hasn't had the opportunity to?) and may not get some of those same votes Henrik did?
That's where Stamkos, especially if he hit's 50, may get the nod.
But, Stamkos has had the same support that Daniel has had this year (from St Louis) - if Daniel or Hank are not considered because of the mutual support that they provide each other, I'm not sure how Stamkos can be considered - he certainly hasn't done it alone.
I too don't think Thomas will be on the ballot. Think of the amazing year that Bryzgalov had last year (42 wins, 2.29 GAA, .920 SV%, 8 SO) on a team that had no business being anywhere but bottom-3 in the conference - he was the singular reason they were in it at all last year, and he didn't even make it as a finalist.
For a goalie to be nominated, never mind win, it takes either an unbelievable season, or a mediocre crop of forwards. If you look at 2002 (when Theodore won), the finalists were Theodore, Roy, Iginla - 2 goalies. But if you look at the forwards that year, Iginla won the Art Ross with 96 points, and the next 2 highest scoring forwards were Naslund (90pts) and Bertuzzi (85). Iginla was the the only player over 40 goals. Thats pretty weak for a season. |
| n/a |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 09:12:44
I really don't see Thomas even being on the ballot.
Daniel Sedin will be on the ballot for sure, and probably Stamkos. After that, I think it depends on the finish, but I'd have to think it might be very difficult to leave Price off the ballot.
Everyone, including Habs fans, have scratched their heads in wonder at how Montreal is where they are in the playoffs - top defenceman out, Cammalleri and Gomez bad years, rag-tag offence . . . and yet they keep winning.
And Price has compareable stats when compared with Thomas . . . obviously that is within the context of Thomas only starting 48 games as opposed to 62, but that actually goes against Thomas getting a nomination IMHO:
WINS
Price - 33 (T 1st)
Thomas - 29 (T 8th)
SHUTOUTS
Price - 8 (2nd)
Thomas - 7 (3rd)
GAA
Price - 2.32 (7th)
Thomas - 2.03 (1st)
SAVE %
Price - .924 (5th)
Thomas - .938 (1st)
In the context of Sydney Crosby being out now for such a lengthy period of time - the true MVP of the league at this point - I would give it to Price, myself.
And you must know how hard it is to write that (I would never speak it aloud, btw  )
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 08:49:10
quote:
Originally posted by Awesome One
I think Thomas has at least had a good enough season to get on the ballot but I wouldn't be shocked if they have Henrik on in his place.
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs".
I too would be shocked to see Henrik on the ballot. My reasoning is exactly why Daniel might not win it as well. I think Henrik rec'd a ton of votes last year for doing what he did when Daniel went down for 18 or so games to injury. Daniel hasn't done anything like this this season (hasn't had to or hasn't had the opportunity to?) and may not get some of those same votes Henrik did?
That's where Stamkos, especially if he hit's 50, may get the nod. |
| Awesome One |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 08:03:26
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Thomas might be on the ballot, but for a goalie to win, he's usually gotta have an absolutely unbelievable year. While the top scorers aren't on pace for what top guys have had in the past, they're still going to be 100+ points which always looks good on paper. True that teammates may steal votes but in Sedin's case, i think Kesler has tailed off enough to be left out though he's still having an outstanding year.
It's kinda funny though how "top scorer" is often given the nod almost by default. I mean, if Stamkos overtakes Daniel, which is entirely possible, he could easily be considered the favorite?
Speaking of goalies winning, haven't only Theodore and Hasek (twice) won the Hart in the past 30 or 40 years? Odds are, it won't be Thomas.
I think Thomas has at least had a good enough season to get on the ballot but I wouldn't be shocked if they have Henrik on in his place.
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 16:51:26
Thomas might be on the ballot, but for a goalie to win, he's usually gotta have an absolutely unbelievable year. While the top scorers aren't on pace for what top guys have had in the past, they're still going to be 100+ points which always looks good on paper. True that teammates may steal votes but in Sedin's case, i think Kesler has tailed off enough to be left out though he's still having an outstanding year.
It's kinda funny though how "top scorer" is often given the nod almost by default. I mean, if Stamkos overtakes Daniel, which is entirely possible, he could easily be considered the favorite?
Speaking of goalies winning, haven't only Theodore and Hasek (twice) won the Hart in the past 30 or 40 years? Odds are, it won't be Thomas. |
| Awesome One |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 16:49:51
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
A1, i'm just curious how you can figure it's down to Stamkos and Thomas? How could Daniel Sedin not be in the running? I know Stamkos is ahead by 5 goals, but Sedin is 2nd in the league in Goals and 1st in points?
Also....
Daniel +24
Stamkos +6
I know that +/- doesn't mean a lot to many people, but it does tell us a little bit in the least. Other than that, their numbers are so close in all aspect aside from Daniel having a few more road points. Everything else is so close, i don't see how ANYONE could have Stamkos on their ballot, and not Daniel??? Unless of course they simply don't like him and that's clouding their opinion?
I did say that I had him on my ballot and that judging by previous years (Thornton-Kipprusoff, Sedin-Crosby) where the scoring champ goes over the deserving Hart winner that Daniel will probbly win.
I'd have Stamkos, the media (the ones who count) will have Daniel as the winner.
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 15:54:39
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2691
I think it is Thomas, only because Daniel has his brother and Ryan to compete with, and Stamkos has St Louis to compete with. Zetterberg and maybe Perry should get some consideration too.
it would be a handfull of goalies before Thomas i know his stats are great but so is his team ,, i wouldn't even say he is the MVP of his team let alone the league,, if its a goalie it would be Price or Rinne
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| Alex116 |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 15:05:17
A1, i'm just curious how you can figure it's down to Stamkos and Thomas? How could Daniel Sedin not be in the running? I know Stamkos is ahead by 5 goals, but Sedin is 2nd in the league in Goals and 1st in points?
Also....
Daniel +24
Stamkos +6
I know that +/- doesn't mean a lot to many people, but it does tell us a little bit in the least. Other than that, their numbers are so close in all aspect aside from Daniel having a few more road points. Everything else is so close, i don't see how ANYONE could have Stamkos on their ballot, and not Daniel??? Unless of course they simply don't like him and that's clouding their opinion? |
| Awesome One |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 14:16:42
I'd say it's down to either Stamkos and Thomas, but knowing how the eastern media loves to give it to the Art Ross winner, probably Daniel.
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 13:23:29
quote:
I think it is Thomas, only because Daniel has his brother and Ryan to compete with, and Stamkos has St Louis to compete with. Zetterberg and maybe Perry should get some consideration too.
I didn't realize that Thomas doesn't have a great defensive team playing in front of him, and he was doing this goaltending thing all alone... Zetterberg and Perry also have great teammates and linemates that they count on.
All good players have a good supporting cast |
| Guest2691 |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 12:53:43
I think it is Thomas, only because Daniel has his brother and Ryan to compete with, and Stamkos has St Louis to compete with. Zetterberg and maybe Perry should get some consideration too. |
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