| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| umteman |
Posted - 07/27/2015 : 13:54:27
Nicholas Lidstrom confirms what I have long held to be true;
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=775678
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 08/19/2015 : 17:04:41
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Joshua.....if you're including longevity, sure, Jagr is in the discussion. At the same time, Orr is out. I still say ask yourself who you'd want on your team, in their prime, let's say for a 4-5 year window?
I'd choose 99, and it's not even close......
Oh, I'd take 99 as well and it also wouldn't be close.
But in hindsight knowing what you know now, who would you take for an entire career, for number your #2. In hindsight, knowing what I know now, stats, total games played and health, Jagr is climbing into Gordie Howe territory, except at 42 he is better than Gordie Howe was. Nobody talks about Gordie Howe in the top 5 anymore. Yet at one point his name was there because of his long career and individual season, just like Jagr.
If Lemieux had been healthy his whole career Jagr wouldn't be in this discussion, but he wasn't, same with Orr, hell Lafontaine might be higher had he had a healthy career, but he didn't, same with Lindros. Any discussion about the best to ever play the game should have Gretzky at the top, but have Jagr in the discussion. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 08/17/2015 : 18:06:10
I think if we were talking complete players the list is quite small. The reason guys like Lemieux, Orr, Gretzky, et al are in the conversation is because they were SO far ahead of the curve in some aspect of the game that it make them literally unstoppable. The group of GOATs took over games, series, and season at will and no one could do anything about stopping them. Many of us are not old enough to remember Orr but after being schooled by some former members and spending some time looking at old tapes my dad had, Bobby Orr was beyond amazing at his prime. He owned the game as a defensemen and no one before he played or since he retired has been able to do that. I think Orr is the only argument that anyone has on Gretzky,
I do think Lemieux was somewhat penalized based on the generation he played. He had guys like Gretzky, Messier, Yzerman, Lindros, Federov, Lafontaine, Roenick, Jagr, et al that he competed with year after year and I think that is the difference maker for me. When Orr was in his prime he was the best player in the NHL by far and he did that for a decade. Gretzky did the same. Most don't consider that when Lemieux was in his prime Gretzky was already in his 30's and had been in the league for 12+ years. And even at that time Lemiuex had to battle an aging Gretzky to be the best player in the NHL.
It's still Gretzky. And PS, the guy did forecheck. He also was brilliant at hooking the guy from behind to slingshot around and steal the puck. But Lemieux was really good at being big and being able to score!
|
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/15/2015 : 23:32:44
Joshua.....if you're including longevity, sure, Jagr is in the discussion. At the same time, Orr is out. I still say ask yourself who you'd want on your team, in their prime, let's say for a 4-5 year window?
I'd choose 99, and it's not even close...... |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 08/15/2015 : 10:48:49
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Agreed Alex
Jagr is great but not iconic as the top 4
See now I think if you really compare Jagr to the top 4 there is an argument he might be the 2nd best ever. I still feel Wayne was the best ever, but if you look at the other candidates Orr, Lemieux, they don't compare career wise to Jagr, even though some of there single season highlights are comparable/better than Jagr's single season marks. He is still one of 13 players to have better than 87 assists in a season, one of 11 to score more than 62 goals, one of 6 players to record more than 149 points in a single season, 4th currently on the all time points list and might already be 2nd had he not played 3 years in his prime in the European league or most of his career in the dead puck era. He holds the record for most game winning goals and the record for most career overtime goals. #1 in single season points and assists for a right wing. He already has more assist than any other Right wing to ever play the game
To me he is more of an argument against why Lemieux and Orr should not be considered the best ever, because in a lot of ways he has been better of the whole of his career than the other closest comparable players to Wayne, who again is by far the best ever. He has the size game and intangibles you are crediting the other comparable players to Wayne. The only reason why he isn't considered right at the top of the best ever is because of Wayne and Lemieux incredible single season totals in the high offense era, just before Jagr arrived. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/15/2015 : 09:28:27
quote:
Originally posted by umteman
You have inadvertently pointed out exactly what I have been saying - Lemieux's all around game was better and he was nearly Gretzky's equal offensively. After all, Ernie Shavers isn't considered the greatest heavyweight boxer ever because he was the hardest puncher.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"
Sure, if you wanna look at it THAT way. But, in that regard, Messier is better than both. Look at it how you want, I'm not here to try to claim Gretzky was the best hitter, defensive player, fighter, etc. You want "best all around player"? Then you have to consider everything.
Go back to your OP. It was all about who was toughest to defend for one of the games greatest dmen of all time. I don't doubt he found Mario more difficult, and its not just the point in their careers (Lemieux/Gretzky). One on one, no doubt Mario with his size/reach/skill would be better I'm sure. But ask any player who played vs both and 90% would prefer to play vs a team with Mario on it over Wayne in his prime. I'm confident of that. Gretzky didn't need to overpower you, he just outsmarted you, knew where the puck would be, could put it anywhere and if he wasn't in a spot to score himself, he'd juat dish off a gimme to a teammate! |
| umteman |
Posted - 08/15/2015 : 09:03:12
You have inadvertently pointed out exactly what I have been saying - Lemieux's all around game was better and he was nearly Gretzky's equal offensively. After all, Ernie Shavers isn't considered the greatest heavyweight boxer ever because he was the hardest puncher.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/14/2015 : 16:12:10
quote:
Originally posted by umteman
Lots of numbers have been put up in these posts and all of them are about one single thing - offensive production. And if you are claiming Gretsky to be the greatest offensive player ever I will offer little or no argument as I am inclined to agree. Gretsky was a force of nature in the offensive game, but he was that only. He wasn't even close to being the best skater in the game and his fore checking was not just ineffective; it was simply non-existent! An offensive machine yes, but not enough dimensions to be called the best player ever. Maybe the debate should be Lemieux vs. Orr.
Ridiculous! How can you argue that Gretzky didn't fore check and then go and say we should be comparing Lemieux vs Orr? How good was Orr on the fore check?
At the end of the day, the question should be "What one player, in the history of the NHL, IN THEIR PRIME, would you pick, first overall in a draft if all players were available. I'm willing to bet 75% or more of knowledgeable "hockey people" would pick Wayne Gretzky. I don't care if he didn't fore check. In fact, the reason his fore check was prob so poor was because he was so good, he didn't have to! He was so good, his team didn't exactly rely on the dump and chase, they just preferred to own the damn puck!!! You know what else was non existent in his game? He didn't make a lot of good saves! Oh yeah, he wasn't a goalie, just like he wasn't a fore checking grinder! That's like telling me the Sedin's aren't the best Canucks ever because they didn't fore check! C'mon, do you think Linden or Smyl was a better player because he could go dig a puck out of the corner??? In all fairness, if fore checking and skating is so instrumental to you in judging who was a better overall player, I'm guessing that when you add in other qualities such as leadership that you must rank Messier ahead of Gretzky too? I mean, he fore checked better, hit more, etc and was great offensively?
I'm not sure why I let myself get into this age old debate about the G.O.A.T. as it's old and worn. I prob let myself just to see if someone can finally convince me to believe that Lemieux was better? Sure, maybe his all around game was better? But you could say that about Jonathan Toews too, right? Would you take Toews over Gretzky as well??? Didn't think so!
Also, just to be clear, I hope I'm not coming off as pissed off or anything like that as I'm not. We're all entitled to our opinion here of course and I'm cool with that. Just like you've tried to point out parts of mine that are possibly skewed, I'm doing the same right back.
My opinion remains unchanged..........  |
| umteman |
Posted - 08/14/2015 : 14:38:26
Lots of numbers have been put up in these posts and all of them are about one single thing - offensive production. And if you are claiming Gretsky to be the greatest offensive player ever I will offer little or no argument as I am inclined to agree. Gretsky was a force of nature in the offensive game, but he was that only. He wasn't even close to being the best skater in the game and his fore checking was not just ineffective; it was simply non-existent! An offensive machine yes, but not enough dimensions to be called the best player ever. Maybe the debate should be Lemieux vs. Orr.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| The Duke |
Posted - 08/14/2015 : 04:48:11
Agreed Alex
Jagr is great but not iconic as the top 4
|
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/13/2015 : 10:33:00
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
To me its Gretzky, Jagr, Lemieux, Sakic, Yzerman then maybe Orr
I find it extremely difficult to compare Orr's accomplishments to those of Gretzky / Lemieux or even Coffey, Bourque, etc because that late 60's / early 70's era is just too difficult to compare. I have no idea what Orr would have been like in the 80's or what Coffey would have been like in the early 70's? The one knock I always had with Orr were his playoff numbers. While not "pedestrian", they don't come anywhere close to his regular season numbers.
Regardless however, Jagr ahead of Lemieux is insane! The never ending "Who's the greatest ever" threads rarely bare any name other than Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and Howe. |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 08/12/2015 : 11:25:20
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Always Gretzky and Lemieux , I think it should be gretzky and Bobby Orr for the argument of greatest of all time .... How any defenseman score almost 150 points in one season ? Can you imagine that !!!!! How many defenseman can win the Art Ross once ?? Yet alone more than once... That's incredible, unbelievable , not human for a D - man
... As incredible as some of gretzkys feats were , Orrs were just as amazing or more so considering he played defense..... AND his defensive game DIDNT suffer, in fact it excelled while putting up all these numbers, unbelievable ... AND he FOUGHT #128526;... What a hockey player !!!!
As I have said in the past, for every name drop and stats drop for Orr being the greatest player, there is a comparable player in his position with similar stats, individual season wise, but greater career numbers except average ppg. Orr did not have the career length to be slotted in as the greatest ever. There is no comparable player in Gretzky's category in individual season, career stats or otherwise, whereas Orr's stats have been eclipsed by other players, who played the game in a different generation, but likely would have been comparable, had they played in his generation or he played in theres. The one comparable to Gretzky and Orr is they both changed the game forever.
Gretzky is still the greatest ever. If I was going to listen to an argument against him being the greatest ever, it might be at the end of Jagrs career. Based on his points total over and incredible long career, with the fact in his early 40's he is still posting numbers greater than Howe was at this point of his career and has the scoring titles, trophy's, cups to back it all up. Here is a list of Jagr's accomplishments.
NHL records[edit]
These records are as of April 11, 2015.
Most career game-winning goals 129
Most career overtime goals 20
Most career assists by a right wing - 1080
Most single-season points by a right wing 149
Most single-season assists by a right wing 87
Most single-season points by a European-born player 149
Most single-season assists by a European-born player 87
Most career goals by a European-born player 722
Most career assists by a European-born player 1,080
Most career points by a European-born player 1,802
Most career game-tying goals by a European-born player 11 (Tied with Teemu Selδnne)
Most career shots on goal by a European-born player 5,281
Most career playoff game-winning goals by a European-born player 16
Most consecutive 30-goal seasons (19912007) 15 (Shared with Mike Gartner, including the shortened 199495 season, 48 games)
Most consecutive 70-point seasons (15) (including the shortened 199495 NHL season, 48 games)
Longest gap between Stanley Cup Finals appearances 21 years
Only player to play in the Stanley Cup Finals as a teenager and at over 40 years of age
Oldest player to score 60 points in a season.
Oldest NHL Player to score a hat-trick (42 years and 322 days old).
Pittsburgh Penguins records[edit]
Pittsburgh Penguins, 19901992 Stanley Cup ChampionsMost single-season points by a right wing 149
Most single-season assists by a right wing 87
Most single-season assists by a European-born player 87
Most single-season power-play goals by a European-born player 20
Most single-season game-winning goals 12
Most single-season shots on goal 403
Most career points by a right wing 1,079
Most career points by a European-born player 1079
Most career goals by a right wing 439
Most career goals by a European-born player 439
Most career assists by a right wing 640
Most career assists by a European-born player 640
Most career playoff game-winning goals 78
Most career power-play goals by a right wing 110
Most career power-play goals by a European-born player 110
Most career shorthanded goals by a European-born player 9
Most career overtime goals 9
Most career game-tying goals 10
Most career shots on goal by a right wing 2,911
Most career shots on goal by a European-born player 2,911
Most career playoff goals by a right wing 65
Most career playoff goals by a European-born player 65
Most career playoff points by a right wing 147
Most career playoff points by a European-born player 147
Most career playoff shorthanded goals by a right wing 2 (Tied with Ed Olczyk)
Most career playoff shorthanded goals by a European-born player 2
Most career playoff game-winning goals 14
Most career playoff overtime goals 4
Most career playoff shots on goal 461
Most career playoff power-play goals by a right wing 19
Most career playoff power-play goals by a European-born player 19
New York Rangers records[edit]
Most single-season goals (200506) 54
Most single-season points (200506) 123
Most single-season power-play goals (200506) 24
Most single-season shots on goal (200506) 368
Most single-season game-winning goals (200506) 9 (Tied with Mark Messier 199697 and Don Murdoch 198081)
Most single-season assists by a right wing (200506) 69
NHL scoring achievements[edit]
Jαgr is currently fourth in NHL career regular season points and is fifth in career playoff points.
He is also currently amongst the career leaders in several other major NHL regular season statistical categories: points per game (17th), goals (5th), assists (6th), games played (11th), power play goals (14th), overtime goals (1st), game-winning goals (1st) and shots on goal (3rd).
Also amongst all-time leaders in NHL playoff statistical categories, Jαgr ranks in the top 20 in goals (11th), assists (T-9th), games played (16th), power play goals (T-14th), overtime goals (T-4th), game-winning goals (8th) and shots on goal (5th).
To me its Gretzky, Jagr, Lemieux, Sakic, Yzerman then maybe Orr |
| The Duke |
Posted - 08/11/2015 : 10:42:24
Always Gretzky and Lemieux , I think it should be gretzky and Bobby Orr for the argument of greatest of all time .... How any defenseman score almost 150 points in one season ? Can you imagine that !!!!! How many defenseman can win the Art Ross once ?? Yet alone more than once... That's incredible, unbelievable , not human for a D - man
... As incredible as some of gretzkys feats were , Orrs were just as amazing or more so considering he played defense..... AND his defensive game DIDNT suffer, in fact it excelled while putting up all these numbers, unbelievable ... AND he FOUGHT #128526;... What a hockey player !!!! |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 14:56:55
quote:
Originally posted by umteman
I think this guy makes a better case than I have.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/414491-a-case-for-the-greatest-nhl-player-mario-lemieux
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"
Here's the part of the article I completely agree with:
"Now take a look at these stats and tell me Lemieux should not at least be grouped with Gretzky in the discussion for greatest of all-time."
The rest is speculative. I don't care if he was playing injured MOST of his career (not all as the writer states). That's like me saying "If Gretzky didn't miss that [insert random missed game] game, he could have scored 10 goals in it". I get it, his back was sore. But I can tell you this much, if someone else tied his skates, it was preventative. There's no way he was wincing in pain every night he played, year after year! Many players play through nagging injuries, but if his back was as bad as some make it out to have been, he wouldn't have been able to play through it for any length of time!
He's def in the discussion, but in my mind, is a close second. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 14:54:59
No, that argument isn't really any better. It's completely subjective to say that Lemiuex would have could have should have had he been healthy. No one is arguing the courage is takes to beat cancer and come back to play hockey. But no one ever knows how injured Lemieux was or was not. The fables of his stories of not being able to tie his own laces is legendary. As are the stories of him smoking cigarettes between periods.
The man was 6'4" and 235 lbs. He was a physical specimen and even injured he has significantly more physical gifts than Gretzky at 6'0" and 185 lbs. Gretzky was never the biggest, strongest, fastest, player nor did he have the hardest or most accurate shot. How was Gretzky ever even in Lemieux class without a single physical gift??
On a PPG basis, they were very close to each other. One could try to argue line mates, but for every Kurri, Messier, or Anderson one can argue back with a Jagr, Francis, and Stevens. Paul Coffey left the Oilers and the coat-tails of Gretzky in his prime and never had the same offensive success as he had when playing with the Great One.
No significant physical gifts, more longevity, more points, more Cups, more, more more more. It all goes one direction.
|
| umteman |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 13:01:16
I think this guy makes a better case than I have.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/414491-a-case-for-the-greatest-nhl-player-mario-lemieux
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/09/2015 : 12:26:12
Well said Beans. The points argument just can't and wont ever favour Lemieux. Numbers dont lie. And it doesnt help Lemieux's side to say "if he was healthy" either as no one knows what he'd have done then.
I look at it this way. I hated Gretzky for all the years he destroyed the Canucks! Always respected him and of course loved what he did for Team Canada, but hated his success as an Oiler. Never had the same hatred for Lemieux as the Canucks didn't see him 8 times a year. But still in the end, i vote Gretzky as the greatest ever! |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 08/08/2015 : 12:42:24
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by umteman
Your points are well taken, but Mario's 199 point season in which he missed 4 games and parts of others bears mention; he may have passed Gretsky's 215 point mark had he played a full season. Also the back and cancer problems you mentioned detracted from the natural physical gifts he possessed.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"
We'll said and I can't agree more. Don't know why this has been a debate for some for so long as there is clear evidence for 20 years that Gretzky is/was the best ever.
So Lemieux almost hit 200 pts one time and had he it would have tipped the scales in his direction?? Gretzky has 4 seasons of more than 200 pts. What Lemieux nearly did once Gretzky actually did 4 times. Lemieux next highest point total was 168 pts. Gretzky did that or more 7 times.
If you are looking purely on points it's not even close. If you look at Gretzky's pt total between 80/81 and 86/87 Gretzky scored 1383 pts in 7 seasons. That's an average of 198 pts.
Gretzky, for a 7 seasons stretch, AVERAGED what Lemieux did in his best season ever.
Find another argument. That won has been dead for 30 years.
|
| Beans15 |
Posted - 08/06/2015 : 07:50:19
quote:
Originally posted by umteman
Your points are well taken, but Mario's 199 point season in which he missed 4 games and parts of others bears mention; he may have passed Gretsky's 215 point mark had he played a full season. Also the back and cancer problems you mentioned detracted from the natural physical gifts he possessed.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"
So Lemieux almost hit 200 pts one time and had he it would have tipped the scales in his direction?? Gretzky has 4 seasons of more than 200 pts. What Lemieux nearly did once Gretzky actually did 4 times. Lemieux next highest point total was 168 pts. Gretzky did that or more 7 times.
If you are looking purely on points it's not even close. If you look at Gretzky's pt total between 80/81 and 86/87 Gretzky scored 1383 pts in 7 seasons. That's an average of 198 pts.
Gretzky, for a 7 seasons stretch, AVERAGED what Lemieux did in his best season ever.
Find another argument. That won has been dead for 30 years.
|
| The Duke |
Posted - 08/01/2015 : 08:19:25
You must have seen some great games then nuxfan. Some of the 1980's greats played on both those teams |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 07/31/2015 : 18:43:53
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Oh I remember Gretzky whining and whining a lot! Most every super duper star player does when they first come in the league as they are coming from a lesser league where they likely got all the calls to the NHL where they are not (at least not from the start) treated with kid gloves. I am and always will be in the Gretzky camp but he was a massive whiner early in his career and I would say worst than Lemieux in a lot of ways.
Living in Calgary back in the mid-late 80's, I went to plenty of games, and EDM was always a huge draw and rivalry... Every time Gretzky touched the puck, the "whiiiiiner" chants would start up, and would not subside until he passed off. Good times. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 07/31/2015 : 15:31:20
I do remember Lemieux complaining about the clutching and hooking after EVERY game...and I do also remember Gretzky being interviewed about this and he said ... As long as the refs don't call penalties against IT for anyone I have no problem with it... It's part of the game.
Gretzky was never the same after Gary Suter cross checked him in the lower back during that canada cup series , in my opinion.... |
| umteman |
Posted - 07/29/2015 : 07:10:32
Your points are well taken, but Mario's 199 point season in which he missed 4 games and parts of others bears mention; he may have passed Gretsky's 215 point mark had he played a full season. Also the back and cancer problems you mentioned detracted from the natural physical gifts he possessed.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 07/28/2015 : 15:53:42
quote:
Originally posted by umteman
Gretsky was better at every other aspect of the game? Well Mario never won a Selke, but Gretsky was never mentioned in the same sentence with the word. You would say he was Mario's equal as a skater?
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"
I am gonna reply with the best response possible.
Speed - Lemieux
Shot Power - Lemieux
Shot Accuracy - Gretzky
Passing - Gretzky
Hockey IQ - Gretzky
Durability - Similar, but edge to Gretzky due to Lemieux Back and Cancer
Stickhandling - Gretzky
Career length - Gretzky
Affect on team - Gretzky
Single Season Goals - Gretzky
Single Season Assists - Gretzky
Single Season Points - Gretzky
Cup Wins - Gretzky
Every single aspect of the game that didn't directly link to a physical attribute, Gretzky was better. He wasn't better because he could outskate, power thru a check or blast a 1 timer at the highest velocity possible. He was the best at the game in spite of it. I am not saying Lemieux wasn't close or the closest possible player to Gretzky in some or all of these attributes, but Gretzky was no where near as physically gifted as Lemieux and succeeded greater in spite of this |
| umteman |
Posted - 07/28/2015 : 13:36:26
The debate rages on...
And will continue after we have left this planet. My position is that Gretsky was a great offensive player but did not have the all around game to be the best ever.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 07/28/2015 : 11:48:36
Oh I remember Gretzky whining and whining a lot! Most every super duper star player does when they first come in the league as they are coming from a lesser league where they likely got all the calls to the NHL where they are not (at least not from the start) treated with kid gloves. I am and always will be in the Gretzky camp but he was a massive whiner early in his career and I would say worst than Lemieux in a lot of ways.
If you talked about work ethic and entitlement, Lemieux was way worse than Gretzky early on. Gretzky was the hardest working guy on every team he ever played for. It took Lemieux a while to learn that and later in his career he simply couldn't work as hard due to the physical issues he contended with.
To the point of Lidstrom's statement, I would agree with Joshua in that by the time Lidstrom was a top end defensemen, Gretzkty was in the twilight of his career while Lemieux was likely still in or near his prime. It would be interesting to hear Lidstrom's perspective had he played in the mid-80s to the mid-90s.
The debate rages on...
|
| The Duke |
Posted - 07/28/2015 : 07:05:03
The ongoing debate #128526; both were hockey gods...
Didn't hear Gretzky whine during the 80's
Lemieux was a constant whiner
Biggest difference I seen |
| umteman |
Posted - 07/27/2015 : 19:37:50
Gretsky was better at every other aspect of the game? Well Mario never won a Selke, but Gretsky was never mentioned in the same sentence with the word. You would say he was Mario's equal as a skater?
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 07/27/2015 : 15:12:48
If you referring to Swedish defenseman being Elite in the NHL at the moment, its debateable, but statistically Karlsson is tops with some other great young Swedish defenders in the league.
If your referring to Lemieux VS Gretzky debate once again, the best answer I could give is Lindstrom, although a wealth of knowledge for the NHL during his career from 1992-2012, really only seen the tail end of Gretzky's career. When he was a regular in the league, Gretzky only had 1 - 100+ point season in the twilight of his career, let alone the 4 - 200+ point seasons he had already amassed. Had he played in the early 80's he might not have seen it that way.
But I am gonna cave slightly to mirror Lindstroms comment, because I know most people would agree Lemieux was the most physically gifted player in the game, Gretzky was just better at every other aspect of the game. |
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