| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The_Gipper |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 10:34:43
Toronto has traded for Kings G Jonathan Bernier.
to Toronto:
Bernier
to LA
Scrivens
Frattin
2nd round pick in ether '14 or '15 |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 09:51:00
ha - good call beans, for some reason I don't consider this most recent lockout a lockout. I was thinking of 04/05...
I think Joshua's list is correct regarding who was signed and who was not since the lockout. Schneider was signed just before the lockout (last summer), and Crawford was a year before that I think.
Regardless, if you look at the ones signed this year alone, it looks like the market for promising-backups-ready-to-assume-starting-role is somewhere in the 2-2.5M range for 2 or 3 years. I would expect Bernier to fall in that range, and given the hype around him, perhaps a bit more. I don't think TOR will sign him to some crazy long term deal before he establishes himself as the starter.
For Backstrom - I'd even go as high as 5M a year for the right team, and a 2 year term seems right given his age. For starting goalies with his record and capabilities, a 4-5M cap hit seems right. My point though is that his current deal should not be considered a true comparable for other players in other positions or stages in their career. |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 09:13:27
Of the contracts signed for Schneider, Crawford, Neuvirth, Crawford, Bishop, Fasth - Bishop, Fasth and Neuvirth were sign post this seasons lockout. Neuvirth at $2.4 in 2013/14 and $2.6 in 2014/15, Bishop at $2.2 in 2013/14 and $2.4 in 2014/15, Fasth at $2.4 in 2013/14 and $3.4 in 2014/15. Fasth having an exceptional start to his season this year and being considered the #1 moving forward gave him the highest contract value, but might not reflect Berniers value. I'd say Bishop and Neuvirth's signings would be the closest comparables, being that both are in a situation to prove there are #1 calibre and having to play themselves into that position. Value for Bernier should be no higher than $2.4 this season and $2.6 for next, but if he signs long term in Toronto, if they have faith in him being the #1 going forward, they may sign him for more and longer.
"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! " |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 06:57:02
Post lock out?? That means all those deals were signed this season?? I think you might have your dates incorrect.
Any deals in the last 2 seasons are under the old CBA.
To answer your question, Backstrom did like get a hometown discount and I be he would have likely caught $4-4.5 million on a 2 yr deal had he left.
Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!
|
| nuxfan |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 17:47:34
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I would agree with those goalie comparisons if the contracts were signed post lockout. Simple fact of the matter is that contract values today will be less than yesterday. Just using the simple numbers of the drop in salary cap, 15% is pretty standard.
So a $4 million deal will be around $3.4 million and a $2 million deal will be around $1.7.
I think the range of $1.7-$3.4 will be right for Bernier but how close to the top??
And Nux, I know what you are trying to say but a proven and still effective 35 yr old goalie who will easily eclipse 200 wins this season compared to a soon to be 25 yr old career back-up who has 62 NHL games in 7 possible NHL season??
Who is worth more???
Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!
All those goalie contracts were signed post-lockout. In fact, I think they were all signed within the last 2 years. The range is rather large, but I'm pretty sure that Bernier is going to fall somewhere in that range of 2-2.5/year, on a 3-4 year deal. He's making 1.5M now from his last deal - just qualifying him will take 1.7M.
As for who is worth more, obviously Backstrom is worth more. But do you think Backstrom signed a market deal? I think he took a hometown discount to stay with a team that is right up against the cap, in order to finish his career with MIN. He probably could have gotten more on the open market, although probably not 3 years. I don't consider his deal to be a comparable in any way. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 13:40:21
I would agree with those goalie comparisons if the contracts were signed post lockout. Simple fact of the matter is that contract values today will be less than yesterday. Just using the simple numbers of the drop in salary cap, 15% is pretty standard.
So a $4 million deal will be around $3.4 million and a $2 million deal will be around $1.7.
I think the range of $1.7-$3.4 will be right for Bernier but how close to the top??
And Nux, I know what you are trying to say but a proven and still effective 35 yr old goalie who will easily eclipse 200 wins this season compared to a soon to be 25 yr old career back-up who has 62 NHL games in 7 possible NHL season??
Who is worth more???
Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!
|
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 13:17:05
I think LA has shopped Bernier for years and this was the best return they could find. I think Bernier has let Toronto know he will sign in Toronto, thru his agent or the Kings, prior to this deal happening. I think Toronto is making a play for a better player and either Reimer or Bernier + etc, is the return. So who would fetch more on the open market, Reimer or Bernier? I think Reimer does. What would the Leafs be looking for?
If both stay and play in Toronto, to me this is a good thing for Toronto. I don't like handing over the #1 goalie position to a goalie because his backup isn't #1 quality. Bean's and other disagree and thats ok, because your right, that is the tried and tested route Toronto has taken for years. Have a clear #1 and a backup who is good quality. Bernier has yet to prove he is #1 goalie quality and if he is gonna do it this is his best chance to behind a young inexperienced goalie. If he doesn't, he has proven he is a great backup goalie.
Edmonton should go this route.
"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! " |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 12:03:15
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Nux, don't you think the Leafs would have at least had a conversation with the agent prior to making that trade?? I get the Leafs likely offered the best package which is why the trade happened. But do you think, for a second, the Leafs make that deal without at least some kind of assurance that the player would sign a deal??
C'mon man. It just doesn't make sense any other way???
Here is an interesting conversation. Niklas Backstrom just signed a 3 year/$10.35 million extension in Minnesota. This is a proven guy who has been top 10 in virtually every important goalie measure since 2006. He's come close to 40 wins and has multiple 30+ win seasons.
I understand he is also 35 yrs old but if Baskstrom is signing for $3 million a year, what does a guys like Bernier sign for???
Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!
I'd like to think so - but at the end of the day, I don't know what conversations went on and what did not. Had a deal been agreed to beforehand, I would have expected to see the deal announced almost immediately from TOR, Perhaps we'll see one this week, at which point I would agree that you were right. Until a deal is signed, TOR have the rights to a player.
I don't think the Backstrom deal is one that can be used as a comparison for Bernier. I look at goalies like Schneider, Crawford, Neuvirth, Crawford, Bishop, Fasth, etc as reasonable comparison points for any deal that Bernier signs - who all, at the time their deals were signed, were exceptional backup goalies looking to move into starting roles. They're all making in the ~2M to 4M range on shorter term contracts, which is where I think Bernier should and will end up.
A top-10-in-every-category-since-2006 35-year old goalie, who has recently signed what will likely be the last contract in a very successful NHL career, is not a valid comparison. If it is, there are quite a few NHL goalies that are currently overpaid. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 11:44:17
Nux, don't you think the Leafs would have at least had a conversation with the agent prior to making that trade?? I get the Leafs likely offered the best package which is why the trade happened. But do you think, for a second, the Leafs make that deal without at least some kind of assurance that the player would sign a deal??
C'mon man. It just doesn't make sense any other way???
Here is an interesting conversation. Niklas Backstrom just signed a 3 year/$10.35 million extension in Minnesota. This is a proven guy who has been top 10 in virtually every important goalie measure since 2006. He's come close to 40 wins and has multiple 30+ win seasons.
I understand he is also 35 yrs old but if Baskstrom is signing for $3 million a year, what does a guys like Bernier sign for???
Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!
|
| mandree888 |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 10:40:22
a couple of seasons ago in the off season (when bernier was originally requesting a trade) he expressed interest in going to a team in east that was closer to home and needed a number goalie. Being from quebec the closest place to home that needed a number one was Toronto. bernier has wanted to come here for a while.
I agree it was a strange trade to have especially after how well riems played. I honestly think riems will be traded somewhere and that nonis will still find a veteran back up for bernier. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 10:39:33
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
No, I don't think this 'trade' was a blindside to the player and I certainly don't think Frattin, Scrivins, and a pick move unless Bernier is a lock to sign with the Buds.
1) I think LAK probably made the best trade for their team. There were likely other suitors for Bernier, and TOR probably presented the best offer, period. I'm sure Bernier was made aware of the potential suitors and therefore potential destination. I would be surprised if Bernier said he would sign with the Leafs and not any of the others.
2) Now that the trade has happened, I do believe that Bernier has every intention of signing with TOR - the question now is what sort of deal will TOR offer?
I don't think Bernier's wish was to go specifically to TOR - he is simply looking to be a starting goalie somewhere. He would get that chance with any one of 6 or 7 teams currently - TOR included. So we'll see how things go - trading for someone's rights as opposed to their contract is always risky. |
| The_Gipper |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 10:08:26
true they could have just waited for july 5th and then tendered an offer sheet. but don't you think that LA would have just matched it? and then turned around and traded him for a higher price? knowing that they could still get full value for him (more then RFA compensation would give them).
besides, if you waited until july 5th you'd probably have to fight off Philly and some ridiculous 8 year $100M deal.  |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 10:02:32
I get that Bernier was traded but the fact that he is an RFA tells me the agent and player were certainly involved with the location. No way an RFA like Bernier gets traded to a team he doesn't want to play for. I get that with UFA's as a team is losing the player regardless. I can't recall who it was a few years ago who was a UFA and their rights went to two different teams before July 1st and he signed with a different team all together. Was it Wisnewski?? I digress.
No, I don't think this 'trade' was a blindside to the player and I certainly don't think Frattin, Scrivins, and a pick move unless Bernier is a lock to sign with the Buds.
Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!
|
| nuxfan |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 09:32:09
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I am surprised at this for three reasons.
a) I am surprised that Bernier would go into a situation where is is, at best, a 50/50 shot at being a starter. Why leave LA to be a back up?? I don't get that??
b) Nonnis must like #1A and #1B goalie situations. I think it's the dumbest thing a GM can do. You need a legit #1 and a solid #2. Having #1A and #1B hasn't worked for a team in like 2 decades. Dumb.
c) It was a lot for the Leafs to give up for an RFA. They are likely going to sign him to a deal of around $2 million a season?? Maybe?? Offer sheet on an RFA?? Hello??
One play that might be happening is a bigger deal including Reimer. If that is the case than this deal makes sense. If not, I think this will bite the Leafs in the A$$........
Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!
I think we are the only two that are surprised and confused by this deal...
a) Bernier didn't choose anything - he was traded. He has not yet signed with TOR, and is RFA therefore could receive offer sheets from anyone. Given his cap hit will be low it would not cost a team much compensation-wise to offer sheet him. A 3 year/9M offer (albeit an overpayment) is well within reach of many teams. At this point I don't think Bernier cares where he plays, so long as he gets a shot at being a starting goalie.
b) I too don't like this because of the tandem situation - having just been through a season with one, I can tell TOR fans that it sucks royally, and is a major distraction on an ongoing basis with the press. Neither goalie will be happy, and neither will get the confidence they need until they become the clear #1. The clear #1 and strong backup is a proven recipe for success, don't tinker with it.
I have to think that Nonis has decided that Bernier is that upgrade, and they'll get him a veteran backup, and therefore Reimer is out. Lots of places for a goalie like that to end up. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 08:56:05
I am surprised at this for three reasons.
a) I am surprised that Bernier would go into a situation where is is, at best, a 50/50 shot at being a starter. Why leave LA to be a back up?? I don't get that??
b) Nonnis must like #1A and #1B goalie situations. I think it's the dumbest thing a GM can do. You need a legit #1 and a solid #2. Having #1A and #1B hasn't worked for a team in like 2 decades. Dumb.
c) It was a lot for the Leafs to give up for an RFA. They are likely going to sign him to a deal of around $2 million a season?? Maybe?? Offer sheet on an RFA?? Hello??
One play that might be happening is a bigger deal including Reimer. If that is the case than this deal makes sense. If not, I think this will bite the Leafs in the A$$........
Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!
|
| mandree888 |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 08:05:38
other names rumored to be coming to Toronto.
These rumors just wont die. and honestly it could be a good fit. Paul Statsny
i have heard great deal aboput the leafs looking at david clarkson from NJD and stephen weiss from Panthers
now weiss i dont see as an upgrade from bozak personally
same with clarkson. and statsny.
also i heard that phaneuf is not off the table. |
| The_Gipper |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 07:45:45
agreed, trading Reimer now makes zero sense (unless a hard to pass up deal comes along). the short term plan on the goaltending front has to be Bernier and Reimer going head-to-head for that no. 1 spot. and until the coaching staff and management have made a decision on who the clear cut no. 1 guy is, then both will remain in a Leaf jersey.
at the very earliest one of them (more then likely Reimer) could be traded on or around the trade deadline date.
but i think they'll keep them both for the full season, and make a decision next summer. again....barring any can't pass up deals that may come around. |
| Leafs81 |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 07:36:15
If they trade away Reimer, then this trade doesn't make sense. You get Bernier to have a great young goalie tandem for a couple of years and then make a decision. And if Bernier only got that for a trade, my bet is Reimer wont get much better, probably less based on potential.
And I hope they don't trade their Captain because it would be a step backward in development. Many people likes to put Phaneuf under the bus, but he plays against the opposition top lines, plays pk, and pp and still puts up pretty good numbers. Yes he makes mistakes, but he also have the game changing hit or goal while jumping in. If they get rid of Phaneuf, then they have a huge hole on D. Gardiner and Rielly are not ready to take on that role, and maybe never will.
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| Guest4482 |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 07:00:44
Leafs will also eat 500K in salary for Frattin and Scrivens due to cap issues. I dot love this trade but with Frattins knee issues and Berniers potential I think this upgrade needed to be made. |
| mandree888 |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 05:44:38
yeah gipper i have heard many a rumor place either riemer or phanuef going to the oilers. if riems goes watch for the leafs to aquire that vet goalie to mentor bernier. |
| The_Gipper |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 05:19:19
and now i've seen on the Sportsnet ticker this morning, and also on their website, that the Leafs are interested in acquiring Sam Gagner from Edmonton. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 19:30:42
At first when i heard the details, my initial reaction was....my god that sounds like a lot for Bernier....but after reading some info on Bernier i realized that the leafs may have a shot at a real keeper here. Every trade is a gamble but your not getting any quality or possible quality for nothing......I really like Frattin but someone has to go the other way, LA ain`t giving up a possible # 1 goalie for nothing.
Bernier is 24 years old and was an 11 th overall, 1st round pick in 2006. From what i`ve read, western scouts are saying he has great potential to become a # 1 starter with 60 game potential. They say he has a great attitude and an excellent work ethic. Same scouts said that the stellar play of J. Quick is the only reason that Bernier hasn`t been given a true shot at the starting role.
Bernier was named the MVP of the 2006 - 2007 Qmj playoffs. He was also named the American leagues best goalie in 2009 - 2010. Last season in LA he posted a record of 9 - 3 - 1.....with a GAA of 1.88 and .922 save %....pretty good numbers.
This deal can`t truely be judged until another couple of seasons down the road. If Bernier turns out to be exactly what the leafs have been looking for since the departure of Belfour...then its a major win for them....if he turns out to be a bust, then i guess this will be a terrible deal for them....only time will tell.
GM`s are always looking to improve their hockey teams. After reading up on Bernier, I personally think that Nonis made a good move here which could possibly reap major rewards.
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| Alex116 |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 17:02:25
OK, i'm definitely in the minority here. I think the Leafs made a great trade here! Sure, Bernier is unproven over the long haul, but really what'd they give up? Scrivens? No offense, and I don't see a ton of him, but I don't see a HUGE future for him, nor the potential of Bernier. A career backup is likely IMO. Frattin? A solid 3rd liner, maybe 2nd? I don't think this guy will come back to haunt the Leafs. And a 2nd round pick? Basically a lottery ticket.
If i'm Nonis, I make this deal without question! I really thought, even though unproven, that Bernier would fetch more than that, especially with a bunch of teams in need of a young goalie!
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| n/a |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 15:16:46
I am glad to get Bernier, first off - I think he's perfect for Toronto's situation. We have what looks to be a legitimate "good" starting goalie in Reimer, but he's been injured every year and has yet to play an actual full season. Bernier is a guy who, now that he's out from behind quick's shadow, is a legitimate threat to be a starter when he gets his chance.
From a hockey deal standpoint however, I am not at all that happy with it, and I think the Leafs gave up too much. Scrivens was going to be going no matter what, but . . . to also have to throw in Frattin? Ouch. If I had guessed on the value of a potential Bernier deal, I would have guessed Scrivens and a decent prospect, or Scrivens and a high 2nd rounder. Scrivens is, after all, already a decent back-up . . . and has the same potential starter future as Bernier. Doesn't look as likely, but . . . you never know, and he improved before our eyes in leaps and bounds the last two years.
It's an over payment, and a tough way to lose Frattin IMHO, but like I said . . . I like Bernier to the Leafs, and feel very confident about our goaltending "duo" now if you will.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 14:16:26
quote:
Originally posted by Leafs81
I saw the title and thought it was a joke.
I'm actually glad they went and got this kid. I like our chances with a tandem of Reimer and Bernier, way better then Reimer and Scrivens.
They are two young talented goalies that will push each other for the starting job.
They gave Scrivens, which made sense because there was no need to keep him after getting Bernier. They gave away Frattin, which I like Frattin but he's not consistent and his play is not good enough to crack the top six on the Leafs and he's not much good of third liner.
Plus a second round draft pick, which you can get back easily, second round draft picks just gets traded around all the time.
I could seem like a lot, but they improved their goalie tandem by giving away a third line player and a second rounder. Pretty good. Glad to see Bernier as a Leaf.
How much are they going to pay him now, probably low for a year as a tryout and then see. I hope he doesn't get more then Reimer.
I don't get this deal myself. I understand that Bernier is a promising young goalie, but honestly, the Leafs have that already in Reimer. Reimer should have been expecting a shot at assuming the full starting role next year - instead, they get another young talent that will probably give him a shot at a tandem at best.
Nonis said he wanted to upgrade at any position - I'm not convinced that he's done that here.
As for payment - Bernier is an RFA, and could get an offer sheet from any other team after July 1. Something tells me that another team would be willing to offer more than 1 year for low money as a tryout.
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| Leafs81 |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 13:02:53
I saw the title and thought it was a joke.
I'm actually glad they went and got this kid. I like our chances with a tandem of Reimer and Bernier, way better then Reimer and Scrivens.
They are two young talented goalies that will push each other for the starting job.
They gave Scrivens, which made sense because there was no need to keep him after getting Bernier. They gave away Frattin, which I like Frattin but he's not consistent and his play is not good enough to crack the top six on the Leafs and he's not much good of third liner.
Plus a second round draft pick, which you can get back easily, second round draft picks just gets traded around all the time.
I could seem like a lot, but they improved their goalie tandem by giving away a third line player and a second rounder. Pretty good. Glad to see Bernier as a Leaf.
How much are they going to pay him now, probably low for a year as a tryout and then see. I hope he doesn't get more then Reimer. |
| Guest4468 |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 11:21:00
Did the Leafs sign Bernier to a contract? I know Bernier is an RFA, and RFA's are very unlikely to get scooped, but what will the Leafs be paying Bernier? |
| Guest4696 |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 10:51:37
Gave up way to much...
Bernier well prove to be a Big Bust in TO.. He hasnt played much in the last few yr's.... TO what are you doing giving up so Much ...
He isnt a number 1 goalie in my Books at all.... |
| Oilearl |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 10:48:09
Agree a very good pick up for the Leafs!! |
| The_Gipper |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 10:38:21
when i first heard the news i didn't like it. but then i read what they gave up to get him.
- a back up goalie
- a 3rd line, potential 2nd line forward
- 2nd round pick
considering what they gave up to get him, i'm ok with this deal. |
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