| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Alex |
Posted - 11/21/2009 : 15:53:12
So the Leafs have less than a 1.7 percent chance of making the playoffs and the fingers are getting pointed everywhere. To me, there are two guys you can blame:
1) Burke.
Except for the Kessel move, he's taken positive steps. Kessel's performing great, but the Leafs are not a playoff team. Burke messed up by thinking they were. Other moves are all solid though.
2) Wilson.
In two years on this team, he's failed to do the two things Toronto needs out of their coaches to win. First and foremost, the team needs defense. Last year they were in the bottom of the league. This year, with a great blueline, they still stink. The second thing was accountability, which means benching guys who don't play well. Why is Luke Schenn untouchable? Guy isn't having a good year.
Wilson had two expectations - bring defense and accountability. Neither of them were winning. He failed at all three. Still a gem of a coach, you won't find better so don't fire him... But for Pete's sake, give this guy a talk! |
| 34 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Thrasher |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 15:21:15
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9818
Soooo.... Ron Wilson getting off easy? what's this thread about?
Ha Sorry. Got a little carried away.
I said Antropov was NOT a star, but hes performing far better than he ever did in a blue and white jersey, thats all. And know that hes one of my boys, gotta defend him haha.
Anyway is Ron wilson getting off easy....
I want to say no, but my god. I never thought the Leafs would win the cup but with the team they had i thought they would border .500 hockey. This was unexpected for me. Mike K, and Francis B, both would help i thought. Maybe they were just overrated before they signed, but they are playing like crap. Eventually Wilsons gotta start banging heads, not having the leafs put on the rally caps. He goes one week saying he wants there to be fights in practice to get the team pumped up and mad at losing, to playing dodgeball on skates in practice. Goaltending has been, how do i put this... less than quality? Someones gotta get the blame, and Wilson seems to me to be the person, unless the Leafs knew they were gonna be this bad, i sure didn't.
I Promise I didn't give her the STD, I'm not a sharing person. |
| Guest9818 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 13:19:28
Soooo.... Ron Wilson getting off easy? what's this thread about? |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 13:08:40
OK, can we agree that Antropov is a little step above a pylon but by no means a superstar??
Antropov is and always has been an above average 2nd line player with the ability to step in 1st line for 10ish games a year if needed. But anything more than that is a stretch.
It would take 5 Antropov's match Kessel's effort on the ice this year. For a guy playing for a team with only a pinhole sized light at the end of the 09/10 season tunnel, he is playing with more effort than I would expect.
|
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 12:46:36
umm Peverley? who has 8 goals and 16 assits compared to the poachers one goal and 19 assits or Afineganov who has 9 goals and 11 assits? Not to mention Antropov makes 4 million and Afineganov makes 800 000.
consider it a give and go with the pylon then, and dont worry no jealousy I lobbied for years to get him out of toronto I dont care if he scores 50 goals he didnt do anything here.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Thrasher |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 12:29:20
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasher
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
Another point that is forgotten in the Disscussion of the picks for Kessel deal is that at last years deadline Burke, and god bless him I have no idea how he sold it, was able to get second round picks for both Dominic "I'm Steve's brother" Moore and Nic "The Khazakstanian Pylon" Antropov. Which game him levergae to free up these picks along with the other moves I already mentioned.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
Hows that pylon doing in Atlanta? haha PPG sounds good to me, ill take that from a pylon any day.
i dont know if ive ever laughed so hard after watching this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS3p7XI23hY
I Promise I didn't give her the STD, I'm not a sharing person.
You could literally put a plastic pylon infront of the opposing team's net and kovalchuck would bounce it off it and in the net enough times to match the 19 assists and one goal antropov has had.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
what about the games where kovalchuk has been injured?? Who else scores for Atlanta. Face it, Antropov has found new life in Atlanta. Im NOT saying hes an all-star or anything like that, but come on, hes doing better than he ever did with the leafs. Perhaps your a little jealous. And a little confused about the pylon thing. Your analogy would suggest that Antropov has 19 goals, by Kovalchuk "bouncing the puck off him". I doubt a pylon could pass the puck as well as Nik. Again, i wish we had Savard back instead, but im liking the way this season is going. Finally Don Waddel did something decent for the team.
I Promise I didn't give her the STD, I'm not a sharing person. |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 12:15:03
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasher
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
Another point that is forgotten in the Disscussion of the picks for Kessel deal is that at last years deadline Burke, and god bless him I have no idea how he sold it, was able to get second round picks for both Dominic "I'm Steve's brother" Moore and Nic "The Khazakstanian Pylon" Antropov. Which game him levergae to free up these picks along with the other moves I already mentioned.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
Hows that pylon doing in Atlanta? haha PPG sounds good to me, ill take that from a pylon any day.
i dont know if ive ever laughed so hard after watching this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS3p7XI23hY
I Promise I didn't give her the STD, I'm not a sharing person.
You could literally put a plastic pylon infront of the opposing team's net and kovalchuck would bounce it off it and in the net enough times to match the 19 assists and one goal antropov has had.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 12:13:02
Whats your point that every first and second overall pick isnt a bust? No s***, My point was that drafting a player first or second overall isnt a guarantee that player will be a superstar.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Guest8954 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 11:23:59
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
Alexander Daigle
Patrick Stefan
Rick Dipietro
Bryan Berard
Kari Lehtonen
David Legwand
Oleg Tverdosky
Andrei Zyuzin
Pat Falloon
These were all first and second over all's that were supposed to be Franchise players to build teams around and there isnt a ring to show for the bunch so where you're selected in the draft is irrelevant. Also pay attention the 08 draft class was stacked not touted as a weak draft at all so you might wanna fire your facts checker. Steve Stamkos, Drew Doughty, Zach Bogosian, Tyler Myers, Luke Schenn, Cody Hodgson, Michael Del Zotto, Jordan Eberle and thats just the first round
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
As on Ottawa fan I was disappointed when I learned of Ottawa's past failure in drafting the likes of Daigle and Berard. but if you looked at the entire first round when Daigle was picked there is such players as Chris Pronger and Paul Kariya. Again with Berard, following him in the first round there is Doan, Sykora, Iginla and JS Giguere. Besides if I remember correctly Berard won rookie of the year and went on to have somewhat of a decent career. Also in the middle of some of those names you skipped players like Thorton (1st) and Phillips (1st) who have both had great careers. And above the 2nd rounders you've listed (falloon and legwand) there is Eric Lindros and Lecavalier respectively. |
| Guest8954 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 11:06:11
Haha, thats New York and Vancouver. The first is a player graveyard and the second is a goalie graveyard. |
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 08:35:11
Antropov is a good player, it took 2 knee surgeries and 10 years of development but he finally turned into a solid player about 3 years ago.
Im not sure why Leaf fans would knock him now, he was our best player the 2 years he played here after mats left. Scored over 20 goals for us and provided the solid net prescence we are missing now. It was just time for the leafs and Nik to part ways, Nik wanted 4 mil and burke wasnt going to spend that money on him. Simple as that, I was cheering for him in the playoffs with the rangers last year and im glad to see him doing well in Atlanta.
At least he is proof that not every player who leaves the leafs falls off the face of the earth and that we can actually draft and develop a good hockey player.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| Thrasher |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 22:00:42
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
Another point that is forgotten in the Disscussion of the picks for Kessel deal is that at last years deadline Burke, and god bless him I have no idea how he sold it, was able to get second round picks for both Dominic "I'm Steve's brother" Moore and Nic "The Khazakstanian Pylon" Antropov. Which game him levergae to free up these picks along with the other moves I already mentioned.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
Hows that pylon doing in Atlanta? haha PPG sounds good to me, ill take that from a pylon any day.
i dont know if ive ever laughed so hard after watching this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS3p7XI23hY
I Promise I didn't give her the STD, I'm not a sharing person. |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 21:31:27
Another point that is forgotten in the Disscussion of the picks for Kessel deal is that at last years deadline Burke, and god bless him I have no idea how he sold it, was able to get second round picks for both Dominic "I'm Steve's brother" Moore and Nic "The Khazakstanian Pylon" Antropov. Which game him levergae to free up these picks along with the other moves I already mentioned.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 13:41:01
^ me
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| Guest8144 |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 13:40:26
hahaha, i love it
beans - I know the leafs suck ok? beauchemin has been brutal this year no doubt, i was just pointing out that he did a really swell job on saturday, so you dont have to jump all over me. I was also just pointing out that Montreal has saved their own ass in OT thats all. Their record through regulation is pretty much the same as toronto, except they actually have guys who can score 4 on 4 and in the shootout. Good luck to them with that in the playoffs.
Ive given up on trying to convince anyone that this years edition of toronto is any better than a bottom 5 team, im just making observations about the recent games.
Also, mr 7752, beauchemin isnt playing goalkeeper and im not even sure he was on the ice. Holding oV to 1 point injured or not is still decent, especially for the leafs. The fact that the leafs even beat washington is amazing in its own right.
The only joke on that night were the caps, for losing.
Burke wins again |
| Guest7752 |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 11:51:00
Beans - you are correct here.
But you tell mr. roberts this, (since I do not respond to his posts),
He said:
If you bothered to watch the leafs/caps game on saturday youd realize that beauchemin did an amazing job of shutting dow OV. Even if he did score a goal, beauchemin was all over him that night and if it wasnt for him, OV probably would have done much mroe damage than just a goal.
Tell mr. roberts:
Ovechkin is playing injured, probably with bruised or broken ribs.
And beauchemin's BEST was to keep him to one goal.
Are you kidding me!!!!!!!
Way to go Burke for bringing this guy here, and way to go wilson for putting beauchemin on ovechkin!!!
what a joke!!!!! |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 11:24:03
Are we calling the Kettle Black here??
TO has 7 OT games and lost 6 of them.
Montreal has only 2 more OT games, but they have only lost one of those 9 games.
We are faulting Montreal for being a better team in overtime and the shoot out???
And Beachemin had one good game. He played solid against Ovechkin. But here's a news flash. That is exactly what he gets paid to do!! He is supposed to shut down the leagues best every night.
He's tied for 5th worst in the league in +/-, and when the likes of Kulemin and Ponikarovksy are out hitting him, I have to wonder what he has brought to the table?? Finger has played in literally 1/2 the games and has more hits than the "physical" Beachemin. He is averaging barely over on hit a game.
20 games in, it would have been better for the Leafs if he was injured. Hopefully the next 60 will be better. |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 10:55:57
yep and how's 8 million a year treating you for Gomez. Gotta love a GM that'll take on one of the worst contracts ever. Who's worse the GM that gives that contract or the GM trades for it?
http://www.crashthecrease.com/2009/06/15/top-10-worst-nhl-contracts/
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 10:37:18
quote:
Originally posted by Guest7752
I say both Wilson and Burke are, were, and will always be Over-Rated.
Wilson is known for not winning any big titles, always going to the dance, but never scoring anything.
He had a decent team when he was in Washington, and could not coach them to win anything.
Same or worse story with the Sharks. Good team, but he was unable to get them to win when it really counted.
There is no way this is the man that will develop the leafs and bring them any glory.
He was unable to do anything with GOOD teams - he will not do anything with this not-so-good team.
He's got great "season" numbers, good wins vs losses numbers... but that's because of good teams... He does not have what it takes to bring ANY team to the next level.
Burke - that's another story... maybe he will move more Ducks to Toronto, and try to re-build in TO what he had in CA...?
Hell of a strategy...!!!
I like Beauchemin's comment before the Capitals game.... "Leave Ovechkin to me, mr boss-Wilson, I'll handle him...".....
Who scored Washington's only goal??
YES, and.....
Gainey wins again.
Ive been waiting for one of these posts for a while now hehe 
Wilson won the world cup in 96 defeating canada, so thats a pretty big title won on a big stage right there.
he also took a very underskilled washington team to the cup final on a cinderella run. Wilson was also the only guy to get san jose to the conference final, with an even more skilled team last year they crashed and burned in the 1st round, whos fault was that?
If you bothered to watch the leafs/caps game on saturday youd realize that beauchemin did an amazing job of shutting dow OV. Even if he did score a goal, beauchemin was all over him that night and if it wasnt for him, OV probably would have done much mroe damage than just a goal.
Gainey's habs arent much better themselves, the OT/shootout has saved their season up until this point, if they dont improve their play through 60 minutes they will be on the outside of the playoffs looking in as well.
Burke will win the War!
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 10:19:57
Nope thats why he's ruined a storied franchise
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Guest7752 |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 10:16:13
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
haha oh thank you i was taking your post serious until you put "and gainey wins again". 'wipe away laugh forced tear'. That guy has put the Montreal Franchise through more turmoil than Mario Tremblay. Happy 100th anniversary though. Nothing like telling your long time captain halfway through the season that the team isnt interested in his services after his current contract runs out.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
yes, it takes balls to do that... that's why gainey's a winner. |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 08:52:07
haha oh thank you i was taking your post serious until you put "and gainey wins again". 'wipe away laugh forced tear'. That guy has put the Montreal Franchise through more turmoil than Mario Tremblay. Happy 100th anniversary though. Nothing like telling your long time captain halfway through the season that the team isnt interested in his services after his current contract runs out.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Guest7752 |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 08:00:38
I say both Wilson and Burke are, were, and will always be Over-Rated.
Wilson is known for not winning any big titles, always going to the dance, but never scoring anything.
He had a decent team when he was in Washington, and could not coach them to win anything.
Same or worse story with the Sharks. Good team, but he was unable to get them to win when it really counted.
There is no way this is the man that will develop the leafs and bring them any glory.
He was unable to do anything with GOOD teams - he will not do anything with this not-so-good team.
He's got great "season" numbers, good wins vs losses numbers... but that's because of good teams... He does not have what it takes to bring ANY team to the next level.
Burke - that's another story... maybe he will move more Ducks to Toronto, and try to re-build in TO what he had in CA...?
Hell of a strategy...!!!
I like Beauchemin's comment before the Capitals game.... "Leave Ovechkin to me, mr boss-Wilson, I'll handle him...".....
Who scored Washington's only goal??
YES, and.....
Gainey wins again. |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 03:38:09
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9655
To all the idiots saying 'well Detroit never has first round picks, so obviously they are overrated'. Dealing first rounders is a gamble- and teams who are right on the verge of winning a cup should take that risk if it might put them over the top. The point is that Toronto is nowhere close to this happening.
As for the value of first rounders, tell me who won the cup last year? How good are the Penguins if they don 't have:
Fleury- 1st overall
Malkin- 2nd overall
Crosby- 1st overall
Staal- 2nd overall
The core of their entire team. How good is Washington without Ovechkin and Backstrom? Oh ya, also 2 top first round draft picks. In a salary-cap league, you really can't put a high enough price on building from within an organization. By the way Stamkos led the way in a supposed 'weak' draft class as well, and he is already better than Phil Kessel.
A weak draft! You must be the idiot. Stamkos, Doughty, Bogosian, Pietrangelo, Schenn, Filatov, Boedeker, Bailey, Hodgson, Wilson, Myers, Karlsson, Sbisa, Carlson, Tikhonov, McCollum. They were all first round picks who have seen some action or are in the NHL today. In fact I think only 2 are back in Junior for there overage year and Filatov is heading back to Russia.
Can you name the top 5 prospects for 2010 without going to a website. I don't think so. It was fairly easy to name them in 08'. |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/22/2009 : 22:07:15
Alexander Daigle
Patrick Stefan
Rick Dipietro
Bryan Berard
Kari Lehtonen
David Legwand
Oleg Tverdosky
Andrei Zyuzin
Pat Falloon
These were all first and second over all's that were supposed to be Franchise players to build teams around and there isnt a ring to show for the bunch so where you're selected in the draft is irrelevant. Also pay attention the 08 draft class was stacked not touted as a weak draft at all so you might wanna fire your facts checker. Steve Stamkos, Drew Doughty, Zach Bogosian, Tyler Myers, Luke Schenn, Cody Hodgson, Michael Del Zotto, Jordan Eberle and thats just the first round
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Guest9655 |
Posted - 11/22/2009 : 18:46:58
To all the idiots saying 'well Detroit never has first round picks, so obviously they are overrated'. Dealing first rounders is a gamble- and teams who are right on the verge of winning a cup should take that risk if it might put them over the top. The point is that Toronto is nowhere close to this happening.
As for the value of first rounders, tell me who won the cup last year? How good are the Penguins if they don 't have:
Fleury- 1st overall
Malkin- 2nd overall
Crosby- 1st overall
Staal- 2nd overall
The core of their entire team. How good is Washington without Ovechkin and Backstrom? Oh ya, also 2 top first round draft picks. In a salary-cap league, you really can't put a high enough price on building from within an organization. By the way Stamkos led the way in a supposed 'weak' draft class as well, and he is already better than Phil Kessel. |
| Guest2120 |
Posted - 11/22/2009 : 11:12:31
The original poster, and a lot of others, make the assumption that this year the Leafs D actually is that much better. I believe Alex worded it "This year, with a great blueline..." But they're not that great.
Kaberle - Great offensive dman. Not great defensively, and too inconsistent, but still an asset.
White - Probably been the Leafs most consistent player this year
Beauchemin - He looked great behind Pronger and Niedemayer, but so would I. He really struggles when he's placed in the top role without those guys to lean on, and his play this year shows it.
Komisarek - He was never great, he looked ok playing with Markov. He is a bad version of Phaneuf.
Schenn - He may develop into a great shutdown guy, he may not. Having one decent season does not make him a lock. He's obviously in the middle of a massive sophmore slump, we'll see if he bounces back like Jordan Staal, or goes the other way, like Jack Johnson.
Finger, Van Ryn, whoever else - these guys are obviously just fill ins, they play their 6th man roles the same as any other number of guys do.
Basically, after Kaberle and the surprising White, the Leafs great new D are failing to live up to the hype. One of the problems with the Leafs is that the minute a player shows some hope of succeeding, he's immediatly assumed to be the next great player, and he can never hope to live up to the expectations. Just like their D this year. Just like Toskala when he first came to Toronto. Do you remember all the hype back then? Nowadays people talk of him like he is the plague and a failure at life. On another note, Stralberg, Kadri, and the rest of the frat line, I hate to break it to you, the odds of those 4 guys being consistent NHLers, or even top six forwards are extremely low. Even Kadri as a top 10 pick, his odds at making the show and succeeding in it are less than 50%. So don't get your hopes too high...
Sorry, I started rambling and this post became an essay. |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 11/22/2009 : 08:57:29
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4271
If any GM believes first round picks are of little significance I believe they are in the wrong position in their organization. How many first round picks have the Red Wings traded over the years? What if the Capitals did that over the last six or seven years. True, not every first rounder pans out but the draft should be the foundation of every team, and picks traded only if the team feels that the player{s} in return will put them over the top.
Just so you know, the Wings traded their first round picks in 2006 and 2009.
Also most GM's are also agreeing that the 2010 is excellent year for gambling with their draft picks. There are no Crosby, Ovechkin, or Tavares in the near future.
I also would think that most would take Phil Kessel over Taylor Hall (projected 1st overall), all the scouts are saying that Hall will not have the immediate impact that most of the #1's have had lately. He is at least 3 yrs from NHL ready. In fact the scouts are saying he is not even as good as Cody Hodgson, and Cody failed to crack the 'nucks lineup.
People should not be too surprised that Schenn is have tough year. Some of the best all time Dmen struggled in their sophmore years. I can remember Pronger having struggles, even guys named Nik Lidstrom and Scott Niedermeyer had poor second seasons. Many good dmen struggle after amazing rookie seasons. Somehow Wilson has to find a way to get Schenns confidence back up.
Many coaches including Caps coach Bruce Boudreau even said last night that the Leafs play better then their record shows.
Patience is what is required. The Wings, Pens, and many other teams had years in fact decades of patience while there teams floated near the bottom of the league. Wings fans had to go through all of the 70's and 80's and half the 90's being in the bottom half of the league till they turned it around.
If you want to compare the Wings, How many 1st overall picks did the Wings have in their lineup when they broke out and won the cup in 96/97? |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/22/2009 : 08:21:11
quote:
Originally posted by Hugh G. Rection
Problem is, Irvine, that if you are a lottery team, you shouldn't be dealing your two first round picks for anyone unless their last name is Crosby, Ovechkin or Malkin.
Kessel has looked very promising in his start for the leafs, but is he really a franchise player? In a salary cap-league, first round picks become so important that Burke is basically declaring Kessel the piece he is going to build around.
Also, declaring the next two draft classes 'weak' is a little presumptuous. You say after the top 3, next year's class is weak? Guess which pick the leafs would be odds-on favourite to get if the draft were tommorow? Kessel is great, no doubt, but is he better than say, a Matt Duchene and an Eric Johnson? (and a second rounder). I'd say not.
yep if those guys were in this draft it might make sense to say that but i dont think any of the guys in the top 5 of this years draft will have an impact comparable to Kessel and if so not enough to proclaim the trade a failure. Like said you give up unknokn in the picks to get a proven sniper in kessel and so far he has proven it wasnt simply Marc Savard setting him up in Boston.
The entire point of scounting and drafting is being presumptuos, You make an educated guess on how a player will develop. You clearly have not taken a hard look at the next 2 years draft classes, unlike the last decade, next year there is no consensus number one pick and theres no gaurantee we wont have a first round pick next year via trade and if not there is no guarantee that we will be a high enough pick in a bad draft to make it a contentious issue.
Also with the emergence of Bozak, Stalberg and Hanson from the NCAA in my opinion eliminates one pick because they are all future NHL'ers who currently are building their resumes in the AHL.
No doubt this team is underacheiving right now nobody can argue that but nobody expected a cinderella emergence over night at least nobody that understands the game. That being said this team will be much better next year with guys like bozak, stalberg, hanson, and gustavsson (provided he is resigned) all having a year of professional hockey under their belt.
Along with any offseason changes because I feel more moves will be made this offseason thatn last year because burke only has about 31 million committed to the cap next year with Toskala becoming a free agent, Raycroft's buyout coming off the cap. Also I would be shocked to see Blake or Hagman back next year with Hagman's no trade expiring on July 1st. And don't be surprised if after this awful start Kaberle is persuaded to waive his no trade clause.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Guest4271 |
Posted - 11/22/2009 : 07:45:01
If any GM believes first round picks are of little significance I believe they are in the wrong position in their organization. How many first round picks have the Red Wings traded over the years? What if the Capitals did that over the last six or seven years. True, not every first rounder pans out but the draft should be the foundation of every team, and picks traded only if the team feels that the player{s} in return will put them over the top. |
| Leafs81 |
Posted - 11/22/2009 : 07:08:57
I think Burke had the idea of having a team at least out of the draft lottery. Because the past two seasons they were able to get out of the bottom 5 and in this offseason they seemed to improve their roster. That being said there was no reason for Burke to believe he had a bottom 5 team. So therefor he traded Kessel for 3 picks he believed had little significance considering the draft class he has.
And also it's not because the Leafs are in the basement after 7 weeks of hockey that they will give up a first overall and a third overall. They still might clear the lottery this year and next year is a whole other story. So if the Bruins gets a 6th overall, a 16th overall and a second round pick, for a possible 40 goals scorer who could resign with the Leafs. Well here I think would be a good scenario for Burke and I believe this is what he was trying to do. Sure it was a big gamble considering you're trading away two first rounders, but gambles and risk is a big part of being a GM. Also at least Phil Kessel is still young and he could be with the team for a long time. And Kessel is doing good so far.
About Ron Wilson, I'm not impressed the defensive system has to be effective. Not just from the defense but also from the forwards to cover the point and block shots. It's not just the defense that makes a defensive system it's the whole team needs to contribute and right now they are not. So I don't know what Ron Wilson is telling them but they are not following the system, or his system is just awefull. As a coach you need to take the best out of everybody and Ron Wilson is not doing that right now. |
| Hugh G. Rection |
Posted - 11/21/2009 : 23:29:54
Problem is, Irvine, that if you are a lottery team, you shouldn't be dealing your two first round picks for anyone unless their last name is Crosby, Ovechkin or Malkin.
Kessel has looked very promising in his start for the leafs, but is he really a franchise player? In a salary cap-league, first round picks become so important that Burke is basically declaring Kessel the piece he is going to build around.
Also, declaring the next two draft classes 'weak' is a little presumptuous. You say after the top 3, next year's class is weak? Guess which pick the leafs would be odds-on favourite to get if the draft were tommorow? Kessel is great, no doubt, but is he better than say, a Matt Duchene and an Eric Johnson? (and a second rounder). I'd say not.
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| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/21/2009 : 22:15:04
Scotty Bowman couldn't win with these guys so honestly you cant put wilson on the hook for that. As for Burke I agree with the fact that you can't put it on him yet he is still hand cuffed by alot of poor decisions made by his predecessors such as
Jason Blake - 4 million
Jeff Finger - 3.5 million
Darcy Tucker - 1 million cap hit until 2013
Mike Van Ryn - 2.9 million
Vesa Toskala 4 million
Right there is over 15 million in player salary towards non "Burke" players so once he can finesse his way out of those salary burdens as best he can and build some more this coming off season you can't place the blame on him.
Another thing is i'm sick and tired of hearing all this lamentation over 2 first rounders and a second for Kessel. Most people don't realize how weak the next 2 draft classes are. 2010 after Taylor Hall, Tyler Seguin and Cam Fowler there are no clear cut prospects and the 2011 draft class is being compared to the 1999 class packed with busts such as Patrick Stefan, Pavel Brendl, Brian Finley, and Oleg Saprykin. So ya Burke gave up alot for Kessel but he did so knowing he was getting a proven commodity who was a 5th overall pick in a very strong draft. So in doing so you have to sacrifice more unknown in the picks to get a gaurantee in Kessel.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| n/a |
Posted - 11/21/2009 : 18:48:22
1) With GMs, I agree with Bob McCowan - talk to me after at least a full season, season and a half. I say, once next season starts, and things aren't turning around for the franchise . . . yeah, we can point fingers. But not before. I have been very happy with most of the deals swung by Burke, actually . . . and the one I wasn't sure about (Kessel) has really worked out so far, whereas the ones I was confident would work out (Beauchemin and Komisarek) haven't to some degree. Well, that's hockey, that's sports - they are individuals, and there are ups and downs out of the control of any other human - but in the end, there should be positive results.
Wait and see, I say - Rome wasn't built in a day.
2) Wilson - whole other bag of potatoes.
I have not been impressed by Wilson thus far, and frankly, I had high expectations. Here, he was suddenly given a "clean slate" of sorts with a new core of defencemen, that when you looked at them, would seem to be a well above average crew. We got responsible, defensive players (Beauchemin, Komisarek) with toughness, and here we had a coach whose specialty was good defence. Well, the results have been even worse than underwhelming . . . they've been brutal. WORSE than last year? It hasn't just been the bad breaks or poor starts from a few players, you'd have to think . . . the coach has to take some responsibility here.
Wilson's free passes have been used up with me, at least - and I think you may not be observing that many Leaf fans like myself are starting to wonder about Wilson. I'll give him more time, yeah . . . we'll see how it's going halfway through the season. But forget the wins/losses - if the defensive responsibility and the defensive system isn't making a great improvement in the Leafs goals against by the end of the season, I am placing a large part of the blame on Wilson.
I would think a lot of Leafs fans will follow suit on that as well.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| irvine |
Posted - 11/21/2009 : 18:38:10
I'm not sure you can blame either one of these guys (Burke or Wilson), as they are working with what they have at this time, while trying to improve when they can. At this point in the season/year, improving your roster is fairly difficult as trades and waivers are few and far between.
Burke: I believe in his short stint as GM right now, he has done a good job with trying to develop this team. He has picked up Kessel, Gustavsson, and other young, talented players from mainly College teams. These guys will find roster spots next season, after re-signings.
These young players should assist in the development and future of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
As for "thinking they are a playoff team", I'm not so sure even Burke believes that. All GM's like to think they have a playoff contending team, but not all do. Though they are going to act like they do, or atleast make a case that they will do their best to be.
By acquiring Kessel, this just adds another peice to the puzzle. A young, goal-scorer. Which they will need and utilize in the future. i highly doubt it had anything to do with contending now, this year.
Wilson: How can we blame Ron Wilson? Every one can see that he does not have a star loaded, contending team. He is doing the best he can with the players he has, while hopefully focusing on allowing the young, future of the Leafs to play more than the guys they are going to drop or let go in the off season.
Right now, it's all about finding out who stays and who goes. Wilson is a solid NHL coach, he just does not have a lot to coach right now.
I don't put the blame on either Burke or Wilson. I don't really blame the players either, they seem to be trying each and every night, they just have no substance or finish. I'd blame past coaches/GM's of Toronto, before these guys right now.
Irvine |
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