| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 12/15/2009 : 13:24:49
Welp,
Toronto Maple Leafs are 7-3 in their last 10 and they are also 9th in goals for and 11th on the PP. The downside to that is the fact that they are 29th in goals allowed and 30th on the PK, but the slow start has alot to do with those numbers.
They are currently 2 points behind 8th place Montreal and Florida, and just 5 back of the 7th place senators (Who just lost Spezza for up to 6 weeks apparently) and tied with 4 other teams for 10th in the conference.
Many had already written off the entire season and ridiculed Brian Burke and Ron Wilson. The fight this team has shown to climb back into contention after a 0-7-1 start, followed up by a 1-8-6 record is just amazing, especially when you have sports writers in toronto giving the leafs a 1% chance of making the playoffs.
Their lack of 'top 6' forwards was knocked continuously as was the trade for Phil Kessel, and while its still early to determine the winner of that trade just yet, it doesnt appear as though those picks are going to be lottery picks. Kessel has brought a dynamic to this team that was sorely lacking to start the year and has been clutch so far this season,scoring 12 goals and notching 20 points in 21 games this year.
The leading goal scorer on the Bruins is Marco Sturm with 9 in 32 games. I dont care what any Bruins fan may tell you, they miss Phil Kessel despite having a solid record. Those 1st round picks better become something special for that trade to favour the Bruins, Kessel is a rare talent.
Vesa Toskala has finally seemed to find a comfort zone, which can probably be attributed to the fact that the leafs in zone coverage has improved by leaps and bounds and time spent with new goaltending coach Francois Allaire. I will admit that I hated the thought of Toskala in net for any more Leaf games but if he can continue to play steady minutes im fine with that. He says that his groin is fully healed and is pain free for the 1st time in years. He isnt getting beat glove side on every shot anymore and isnt deep in his net like he was early in the year. In fact he has made some highlight reel saves over the past few games.
Mike Komisarek and Francois Beauchemin both started the season off in terrible fashion but have since found their game and are playing quality minutes. Beauchemin in particular who has been shutting down the top players on opposing teams with regularity. Tomas Kaberle continues to be amongst the NHL leaders in defenceman scoring and Ian White has cemented himself as an NHL defenceman.
Luke Schenn has struggled in his sophmore campaign but has recently shown signs of life, delivering some Monster hits (which can be seen on NHL.com's top 10 hits of the week, Schenn is featured 4 times I beleive, including the #1 spot). Although he has sat out the last 2 games I still feel that Luke will become a top shutdown defender in the NHL.
With Nik Hagman(15-9-24) and Matt Stajan(11-15-26) both producing at top 6 levels as well as the emergence of a bonifide checking line in Primeau-Stempniak-Kulemin do you think that the Leafs have a legitimate shot at the playoffs now? Or is this just a hot streak and the leafs will fall back to the depths of the conference?
For the 1st time in a long time the Maple Leafs are playing excellent hockey, are winning on home ice and getting solid goaltending. Troll if you'd like, or add to the discussion.
I know im a homer, so give me the other side of the story
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 12/23/2009 : 12:29:22
Beans, excellent points.
I will not argue that I would have Drew Doughty on my team over Schenn or that Doughty is the better Dman. Doughty as 18yr old rookie was exceptional. He also played in relative obscurity in LA.
This is my breakdown of the names you gave me to compare.
Matt Hunwick played 13 games in he rookie season with Boston as a 23 yr old. Last yr as a 24 yr old he played well for 53 games
Zach Bogosian 18 yrs old in his rookie season with Atlanta, got injured and played only 47 games and got sent down to the AHL. Bogosian is an excellent player, but did not have the impact as an 18 yr old rookie that Schenn did for the Leafs.
Adam Pardy enjoyed a fine rookie season with the flames and proved to be good shutdown man. He played 60 games in is rookie season with Flames last season. He was 25 yrs old.
Tyson Strachan broke through for a 30 game stint with the Blues last season as a rookie. He also spent time in the AHL. He enjoyed some mild success as a 25 yr old rookie.
The only other comparable from you list would have been Zach Bogosian and if he had not got injured I am sure he would have made more of an impact in his rookie season.
The others have 4, 5, or 6 years of pro in the AHL under their belts and enjoyed rookie seasons as more mature players. Schenn was an 18 yr old rookie in the most hockey mad market in the world and succeeded at exceeding all expectations. He is not a point producer like Doughty and he never will be. But he has showed and IMO has the tools to develop into a top shutdown dman in the future. |
| Guest7752 |
Posted - 12/23/2009 : 10:59:00
quote:
[i]Originally posted by slozo[/i]
[br]Guest 7752 giving the Leafs any credit at all - in fact, handing our kudos to the players?!?
It must be the eggnog!
Well, the scratch and claw upwards has stalled somewhat, but unlike 7752, I give out the praise to come back from their horrific start to both players and coach . . . just like I blamed both for the start. I still blame the terrible penalty kill on Wilson for the most part, because to me, he has the players for that (this is why he got Primeau). I question some of the players he decides to put out for the pk, but ultimately, sometimes these stats (for pk/pp) are fickle and not worth worrying about too much - rather, we should be worrying about the general goals against stats.
Let's hope the Zombie Leafs don't return to the crypt during the holidays . . . because we are certainly only a three or four game slide away from bottom of the pile once again.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Except for Sundin - I never crapped on any Leaf or ex-Leaf player. So cudo's are well deserved... for their efforts up to now.
Unfortunately, and as usual, Leaf management will make sure this "good thing" will end soon... they're not bright enough to realize what's really happening... they will take all the credit and ruin whatever fragile chemistry is going on right now.
The 3 or 4 game skid from the pits may be a reality soon enough. Once management starts to over-rate this team and make what they think are "small" tweaks to now not only take them to the playoffs, but to actually win something - that's when things head south.
Already, this farting around with Shenn is ridiculas. You either play or don't play him. This on-off tihng from the press box is killing his confidence and making him "think" too much when he eventually gets to play.... |
| n/a |
Posted - 12/23/2009 : 10:20:24
Guest 7752 giving the Leafs any credit at all - in fact, handing our kudos to the players?!?
It must be the eggnog!
Well, the scratch and claw upwards has stalled somewhat, but unlike 7752, I give out the praise to come back from their horrific start to both players and coach . . . just like I blamed both for the start. I still blame the terrible penalty kill on Wilson for the most part, because to me, he has the players for that (this is why he got Primeau). I question some of the players he decides to put out for the pk, but ultimately, sometimes these stats (for pk/pp) are fickle and not worth worrying about too much - rather, we should be worrying about the general goals against stats.
Let's hope the Zombie Leafs don't return to the crypt during the holidays . . . because we are certainly only a three or four game slide away from bottom of the pile once again.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Guest7752 |
Posted - 12/23/2009 : 07:43:14
It is what it is.
Playoff hunt, playoff spot, regardless.... they have shown that they will not give up.
They are (by far) not a good team - especially their coach and GM.
I think they are winning on pure grit and dedication to the cause.
Kessel is the only real talent on the team, and the others are doing their share.
With a team that is assembled such as this one - considering where they are at today, and where they where on Oct/Nov... one must credit the coaching staff OR the pure grit of the team. I believe it is the pure grit of the players. They are winning in spite of the coach. And because of that, It will not take much for them to go back to the way they were in Oct/Nov.
|
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 12/23/2009 : 07:23:17
Wow, 7752 you let me off easy. It must be christmas.
anyways, now that we've seen a little more action since I started this topic I've kind of come to grips with what I feel is reality.
The Leafs just aren't good enough defensivley to make the playoffs. The work hard enough and they get enough goals, but the brain farts in their own zone and the neutral zone cost them way too many goals. Vesa Toskala also forgets how to play goal every 4 games or so and lets in backbreaking goals like Buffalos 2nd goal last friday
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlAW8Xyl8Eo
Ian White and Francois Beauchemin made 2 elementary mistakes on monday which lead to buffalo tieing the game and winning it in OT, and this is something that happens just way too often. They are dead last on the Pk by a landslide and have allowed the most goals against in the league, and these are the 2 things that will cancel out all the other good things they do. I think they can stay in the race, but i'll be shocked if they can get into a playoff spot with the last place pk and ga.
But still, you could view tha glass half full, they are 5 points back and have a key game against the Islanders tonight. A win would really keep them in the hunt.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| Guest7752 |
Posted - 12/23/2009 : 06:41:45
Zombie Leafs ?
Back from the Dead ??
What can one say except:
Congratulations Toronto Maple Leafs.
Regardless of how low in the standings this team is, they are on the way up and have BIG momentum – they have shown a lot of balls to get to where they are now.
I must say, as much as it hurts to say it – these guys are REALLY back from the dead.
I’m sure many are still skeptical, but I for one MUST congratulate these guys on their determination.
On the other side of the coin – my beloved HABS and OILERS have disappointed me and I can only hope things get better.
Do not, however, get me wrong:
Burke is still an idiot, Gainey is still #1, Leafs are still not my “most loved” and I still love to mock the Leaf fans and media.
Happy Holidays to all, especially the ones I love to “disturb” once in a while.
Hope the New Year brings every Canadian hockey fan a GOLD MEDAL!!!
|
| Canucks Man |
Posted - 12/23/2009 : 02:22:12
Excellent point Beans, being the best of one doesn't really say to much, Schenn was okay at best last year, I honestly hope he improves and can become a good shut down defenceman but he isn't there, not even close imo.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
|
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 15:56:31
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Porkchop73[/i]
[br]Slozo, my evalution of Schenn is based solely only on how he played as an 18yr old rookie defencemen in the NHL. IMO he had a very good, if not excellent year.
Schenn is not a point producer, never was, never will be. So as a 18 yr old rookie he was probably the best "rookie" shutdown dman. Can anyone name another rookie dman last year as effective at that. He was not expected to carry the puck out of the zone or make that first pass out. What he did do was exceed expections at his defensive zone coverage. Sometimes being the best dman on the ice.
As a 18 yr old he was able to demonstrate leadership on team that struggled immensly throughout the season. There is no reason that a 18yr old rookie should be the one defending a teamate game in and game out and how many times last season did we witness Schenn do that.
I am positive had he played for Detroit or Pitt or any other top team that he would have had even a better season.
People can knock on him for being a Maple Leaf but he most certainly had very good to excellent rookie season. Stellar would have gotten him a Calder, so no not a stellar rookie season.
Had he sucked last year would everyone be calling this season a sophmore slump?
PATIENCE is required, who knows if he finds his game but he has demonstrated that he has the tools to be a top dman in the future.
Good point, but winning by aclaimation is not really winning. People can't name another rookie shutdown defenceman because there wasn't any. Being the only shutdown rookie defenseman means he was automatically the best. And also the worst. 
But if we want to go there, lets. How about Matt Hunwick, Zach Bogosian, Adam Pardy, or Tyson Strachan.
In fact, let's dance around the 3rd worst +/- of all rookie defensemen??
Gotta love a -12, 14 points in 70 games and a killer 2% shooting percentage being listed as a very good if not great season.
Any standout defensemen, such as Drew Doughty, follow up an below average rookie season with a standout 2nd season.
Schenn might be a player one day. But to say anything more than that, specifically that last seaon was anything even close to average let alone standout is laughable.
Let's look at Luke Schenn for a second. He lays a lot of hits, blocks a lot of shots. Both are really good things for a defensemen to do and those things make your team mates love you. But he also doesn't score and he turns the puck over 3 times for ever time he takes it away.
That makes him...............
Jason Smith. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 15:46:00
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Tiller33[/i]
[br]Wow pretty quick to sell Smith and Souray down the river eh.
Nope, not selling anyone down the river. A spade is a spade. Neither Smith nor Souray are standout shutdown players. Never have been, never will be.
This is consistent with what I have always said about either player.
|
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 14:00:03
Slozo, my evalution of Schenn is based solely only on how he played as an 18yr old rookie defencemen in the NHL. IMO he had a very good, if not excellent year.
Schenn is not a point producer, never was, never will be. So as a 18 yr old rookie he was probably the best "rookie" shutdown dman. Can anyone name another rookie dman last year as effective at that. He was not expected to carry the puck out of the zone or make that first pass out. What he did do was exceed expections at his defensive zone coverage. Sometimes being the best dman on the ice.
As a 18 yr old he was able to demonstrate leadership on team that struggled immensly throughout the season. There is no reason that a 18yr old rookie should be the one defending a teamate game in and game out and how many times last season did we witness Schenn do that.
I am positive had he played for Detroit or Pitt or any other top team that he would have had even a better season.
People can knock on him for being a Maple Leaf but he most certainly had very good to excellent rookie season. Stellar would have gotten him a Calder, so no not a stellar rookie season.
Had he sucked last year would everyone be calling this season a sophmore slump?
PATIENCE is required, who knows if he finds his game but he has demonstrated that he has the tools to be a top dman in the future. |
| Guest8369 |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 10:27:20
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Tiller33[/i]
[br]Wow pretty quick to sell Smith and Souray down the river eh.
Smith was a heart and soul player not an all star. Souray is a PP 1st line offensive threat, not a grinder shutdown or PK type kind of player. Both are true NHL player's just not well rounded. |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 10:11:55
Wow pretty quick to sell Smith and Souray down the river eh. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 09:21:37
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Tiller33[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by Porkchop73[/i]
[br]I don't necessarily agree on the Luke Schenn being a 3 or 4 dman at best. Luke Schenn is still a solid prospect for the Leafs. Most D-men in the NHL take 4 to 5 years to develop to their full potential. I am not writing off Schenn just yet. He has the capability to turn into a premier shutdown Dman in the NHL. Although he had a stellar rookie season I believe the Leafs should have sent him back down to junior last season. It is so easy to ruin a young dman in the NHL by pushing him to hard when they are young. That coupled with the scrutiny of performing in hockey mad TO is a recipe for possible failure.
Do you want a perfect example of someone who was written off, Brayden Coburn of the Flyers, traded by the Thrashers because they thought he was not he stud dman they had drafted. Now he is the possibly the Flyers most consistent, shutdown Dman.
Patience is the key when developing dmen.
Couldn't agree more.
Devils and Leafs gave up on Jason Smith (Beans looking in your direction) who went on to be a top shutdown guy in Edmonton. Souray is another guy that was thrown out by the Devils and turned into a top shut down guy. Again I'm not saying any of this means Schenn will be a top guy but I truly believe the blocks are there for him to be a true #1 but to call him "ruined" is ridiculous. Of course he could have benefited from another year of juniour or a stint with the Marlies (which I think may be in the not so distant future) but he still earned every minute he played last year.
Hey Tiller, I think we might be watching a different game. NHL hockey right??? Jason Smith was a gritty, hardnosed leader who would give his last breath to his team. But top shutdown guy in Edmonton?? Are you kidding?? He was #4 defensemen in Edmonton and was on the 2nd PK unit. Smith was a solid everyday NHL defenseman for over 1000 games. But top shutdown guy??? Puh-lease.
Souray and Shutdown guy has never been said in the same sentence before today. Souray has to work very hard to skate as well as just about any other player and get beats over and over. Without a slapshot, Souray may not be an NHL player.
If you are going 'look my way' bring something legitimate. Porkchop had a great example in Coburn. Smith and Souray are far from great examples of shutdown guys.
Finally, reading is key. I never said he was written off and ruined. I don't know that, and no one does. But bringing him in as an 18 yr old and benching him does what??? It MIGHT ruin him. That is what I've said all along.
Never once said he WAS ruined. |
| n/a |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 04:49:34
So then, Porkchop, you are admitting that Schenn did not have a "stellar" first year?
I think what you are saying is, that Schenn had a pretty good year for being a rookie 18 year old defenceman playing everyday on a bad team, right?
That is a world away from having even a very good rookie season . . . which would, in my mind, be one step below "stellar".
LAST YEAR: 70gp, 2g, 12a, 14pts. -12, 71 PIM, can't find his hit totals on nhl.com for last year
Like you said - not too shabby for an 18 year old defenceman on a crap team, which is to say - not great really.
Now, this 19 year old in Buffalo - Tyler Myers? So far he has played himself up to the top 2 defensive pairing minutes on a team first in their division, and through 35 games he has 3g, 16a, 19pts, +7, and is generally considered one of the front runners for rookie of the year.
Now THAT'S a stellar season (so far).
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 03:50:15
[/quote]
I wrote this, and another thing, Porkchop how you can say Luke Schenn had a "Steller" Rookie year and keep a straight face is completely ridiculous. He was average at best.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
[/quote]
OK stellar is probably a strong word to use for his rookie season. But, with a straight face, excellent and better then most 18 yr old rookie defencemen is a fair evaluation of Schenns rookie season. You can look a Doughty last year and Hedman this year. Schenn is a step behind both of them but he still out performed many others like Pietrangelo and Bogosian who were drafted ahead of him. In fact I think he still out performs them. Why else would the Blues let Pietrangelo go to the Canadas junior camp.
I also said in that previous post that he would have benefitted far more by returning to junior for one more season.
I am not calling him a god or anything like that, just saying I am not ready to right him off. Defensemen are notoriously slow to develop. |
| Canucks Man |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 02:29:53
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Guest4813[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by hanley6[/i]
[br]quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man
I for one think all the bickering about OT and SO losses should stop, it is what it is and there is no changing it at least this season. It doesn't count strickly as a loss because even though you lose you still earn points in the standings. There is really no need to say things like "I don't count shoot outs as wins or losses, just ties" because it is wins and losses simple as that.
The leafs will not make the playoffs this season because they got off to way to bad of a start, and their goaltending as been god awful.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
basically a shootout is a garbage ending to the game, my opinion hokey is a Team sport not an individual sport, really if you get to the Shootout the Teams tie the game... Unfortunately they brought in the shootout for the extra point, meaning individual winnings instead team performance.
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP
I agree with everything you said there, only I choose to not waste my time complaining about things that I can't control, and that can"t be changed right now anyway.
I wrote this, and another thing, Porkchop how you can say Luke Schenn had a "Steller" Rookie year and keep a straight face is completely ridiculous. He was average at best.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
|
| Guest4813 |
Posted - 12/22/2009 : 02:22:53
quote:
[i]Originally posted by hanley6[/i]
[br]quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man
I for one think all the bickering about OT and SO losses should stop, it is what it is and there is no changing it at least this season. It doesn't count strickly as a loss because even though you lose you still earn points in the standings. There is really no need to say things like "I don't count shoot outs as wins or losses, just ties" because it is wins and losses simple as that.
The leafs will not make the playoffs this season because they got off to way to bad of a start, and their goaltending as been god awful.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
basically a shootout is a garbage ending to the game, my opinion hokey is a Team sport not an individual sport, really if you get to the Shootout the Teams tie the game... Unfortunately they brought in the shootout for the extra point, meaning individual winnings instead team performance.
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP
I agree with everything you said there, only I choose to not waste my time complaining about things that I can't control, and that can"t be changed right now anyway. |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 12/21/2009 : 22:02:18
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Porkchop73[/i]
[br]I don't necessarily agree on the Luke Schenn being a 3 or 4 dman at best. Luke Schenn is still a solid prospect for the Leafs. Most D-men in the NHL take 4 to 5 years to develop to their full potential. I am not writing off Schenn just yet. He has the capability to turn into a premier shutdown Dman in the NHL. Although he had a stellar rookie season I believe the Leafs should have sent him back down to junior last season. It is so easy to ruin a young dman in the NHL by pushing him to hard when they are young. That coupled with the scrutiny of performing in hockey mad TO is a recipe for possible failure.
Do you want a perfect example of someone who was written off, Brayden Coburn of the Flyers, traded by the Thrashers because they thought he was not he stud dman they had drafted. Now he is the possibly the Flyers most consistent, shutdown Dman.
Patience is the key when developing dmen.
Couldn't agree more.
Devils and Leafs gave up on Jason Smith (Beans looking in your direction) who went on to be a top shutdown guy in Edmonton. Souray is another guy that was thrown out by the Devils and turned into a top shut down guy. Again I'm not saying any of this means Schenn will be a top guy but I truly believe the blocks are there for him to be a true #1 but to call him "ruined" is ridiculous. Of course he could have benefited from another year of juniour or a stint with the Marlies (which I think may be in the not so distant future) but he still earned every minute he played last year. |
| umteman |
Posted - 12/21/2009 : 20:16:00
Tonight I saw the Leafs play for the first time this season (vs. Sabers) and even though the result was an overtime loss I was rather surprised. The leafs showed some speed, some faceoff prowess, tenacity, and some "ice awareness".
Only wonder why I was watching Leafs vs. Sabers instead of Penguins vs. Devils. Well I am a diehard and am just sure the Pens would have won if I had been watching.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| hanley6 |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 13:55:57
quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73
I don't necessarily agree on the Luke Schenn being a 3 or 4 dman at best. Luke Schenn is still a solid prospect for the Leafs. Most D-men in the NHL take 4 to 5 years to develop to their full potential. I am not writing off Schenn just yet. He has the capability to turn into a premier shutdown Dman in the NHL. Although he had a stellar rookie season I believe the Leafs should have sent him back down to junior last season. It is so easy to ruin a young dman in the NHL by pushing him to hard when they are young. That coupled with the scrutiny of performing in hockey mad TO is a recipe for possible failure.
Do you want a perfect example of someone who was written off, Brayden Coburn of the Flyers, traded by the Thrashers because they thought he was not he stud dman they had drafted. Now he is the possibly the Flyers most consistent, shutdown Dman.
Patience is the key when developing dmen.
same thing with young Goalies
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 12:12:55
I don't necessarily agree on the Luke Schenn being a 3 or 4 dman at best. Luke Schenn is still a solid prospect for the Leafs. Most D-men in the NHL take 4 to 5 years to develop to their full potential. I am not writing off Schenn just yet. He has the capability to turn into a premier shutdown Dman in the NHL. Although he had a stellar rookie season I believe the Leafs should have sent him back down to junior last season. It is so easy to ruin a young dman in the NHL by pushing him to hard when they are young. That coupled with the scrutiny of performing in hockey mad TO is a recipe for possible failure.
Do you want a perfect example of someone who was written off, Brayden Coburn of the Flyers, traded by the Thrashers because they thought he was not he stud dman they had drafted. Now he is the possibly the Flyers most consistent, shutdown Dman.
Patience is the key when developing dmen. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 09:48:26
Milburry said it pretty good about the Miller vs Leafs and Lalime vs Pitts. The old saying is You don't throw a change up to a .250 hitter. Basically, why go with your backup against an apparent weaker team and maybe get 2 points? It makes more sense to have a more sure bet of the 2 points, plus it gives your back up some confidence knowing that the coach trusts him enough to go against the best in the league. Also, in this sitaution the Sabres play TO again on Monday and then Washington. So rather than Miller playing 3 games in 5 days, he played 2 games in 5 days. Extra day of rest??
Slozo, you are dead on with you Schenn report. He will never be as good as people expect him to be in TO. It's just that simple. He is a legitimate #3-#4 day to day d-man but he is expected to be a #1. It's just not happening. |
| n/a |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 07:28:15
I still say that the Zombie Leafs (btw Matt - this was a great moniker you came up with, thanks!) are back from the dead.
Buffalo has our number, and there's no getting away from that . . . if we can finally beat Miller next game (how come the mighty Pens get Lalime, while the lowly Leafs get Miller the night before then probably Miller on Mon? Where is the fairness in that?!?), then it'll be a huge monkey off our back. Whatever the result there, the big games of course are against the Isles and the Habs next week . . . but again, it's a long season.
I think the problems with Schenn are twofold: the expectations are way too high (I do not see him as a blue-chipper), and he is very young in a crazy market. I am just glad that finally he was sent down for a stint, and by the look of it, he'll be sent down again. He needs it, in my opinion . . . and with White playing so well, I'd rather replace Schenn with an Exelby instead - less mistakes, same toughness and skill level.
I think there is certainly something to the sophomore slump, especially when applied to players that had a great first year. The expectations rise dramatically, others key in on you more, and the pressure intensifies to a level never before known. That's when players crumble under pressure, make mental errors, and squeeze their sticks too hard.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 16:25:00
quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man
Yes not all players have good second years, but just as many of them have bad first or third years, oh and semin jumped up from 22 points in 52 games to to 73 points in 77 games, not much of a slump eh?
CANUCKS RULE!!!
Fair enough I missed the year he played before the lockout he had a junior year slump. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 16:15:33
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9494
Beans your just jealous of the leafs we all know there better than the Oilers. Cogalino can't make it past the 3rd line Souray is the biggest whiner in the league, your captain should be playing in the AHL. You just fired the best coach you guys ever had now you have to use Quinn just cuz you wanna be like the Buds. Leafs have the most potential coming up with Kadri and already a stanley cup contender what are the Oilers doing sucking of course with kids who can hardly skate and take a check. Get a real coach and GM like Burke then start chirping the leafs, cuz everyone know by the end of the year leafs will be in the playoffs and Oilers will be playing golf
I'm gonna take my pal Slozo's advise and leave this one alone. Beside, this is simply too easy for me. It wouldn't even be fun.
Now, Sophmore slumps and OTL aside, the Leafs 7-3-0 is nearly ruined with a 2 game losing streak, specifically speaking of the Buffalo lose yesterday. I caught the 2nd and 3rd period and felt like I was watching the Leafs from the first 10 games. Seriously, I am not hockey coach, but don't you think Wilson could find some kind of drill or something to teach that team to move the puck out of their own end??? It's frustrating. My wife nearly thought the Oilers were on TV with the amount of shouting I was doing. I feel for you awesome Leafs fans because you do deserve better than that.
If that performance comes out tonight, it will be another lose, potentially 8 points out of the playoffs, and a comfy fit at 29th.
I hope they lay a spanking on Boston tonight because 3 turns into 5 before you blink and you need to be going the other way.
Now, how is that for encouragement from an supposid "Leaf Hater??" |
| Canucks Man |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 15:54:11
Yes not all players have good second years, but just as many of them have bad first or third years, oh and semin jumped up from 22 points in 52 games to to 73 points in 77 games, not much of a slump eh?
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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| hanley6 |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 15:06:52
quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man
I for one think all the bickering about OT and SO losses should stop, it is what it is and there is no changing it at least this season. It doesn't count strickly as a loss because even though you lose you still earn points in the standings. There is really no need to say things like "I don't count shoot outs as wins or losses, just ties" because it is wins and losses simple as that.
The leafs will not make the playoffs this season because they got off to way to bad of a start, and their goaltending as been god awful.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
basically a shootout is a garbage ending to the game, my opinion hokey is a Team sport not an individual sport, really if you get to the Shootout the Teams tie the game... Unfortunately they brought in the shootout for the extra point, meaning individual winnings instead team performance.
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 13:06:28
quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man
It seems to me that the Leafs fans blaming Schenns play on the 'sophmore slump' are just reaching for an excuse for his bad play. There is no such thing as the "Sophmore Slump" Its a mith, What did Sidney Crosby do in his second year? ohh thats right he lead the league in scoring. Pavel Bure went from having 60 points to having 60 goals, and 110 points. Kopitar had his best year to date in his "sophmore slump" Niklas Backstrom (capitals not wild) jumped up 19 points last year, his "sophmore slump". So blame his bad play on whatever you want, but pick somthing more reasonable.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
Listen I agree more than alot of people do use it as an excuse for poor play but that being said the sophmore slump isn't an imagrinary phenomenon. You can't compare a young defenceman to an elite scorer in Bure, a kid touted as the next Gretzky in Crosby and a guy playing with arguably the best player in the league (Ovechkin) in Backstrom.
Brian Leetch, Teemu Sleanne, Jarome Iginla, Ed Belfour, and Bakcstrom's linemate Semin all had sophmore slumps but ended up having decent careers. Does that mean Schenn's gonna snap out of it and be a number one defencemen? Hell no but just the same it doesn't mean he won't.
Leaf fans are so quick to forget that he is a 20 year old kid playing in the most pressurized market in the league. I'm not making excuses for his play and I don't think anyone including Schenn himself would argue that his play doesn't need serious improvement, but traditionally defenceman take longer to become complete players than forwards. If Schenn can't turn his play around this year and falls off the map next year then everyone calling for his head now will feel justified but I still think to judge a kid on a year and a half of play on a terrible team is a bit much.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 11:35:40
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9494
Beans your just jealous of the leafs we all know there better than the Oilers. Cogalino can't make it past the 3rd line Souray is the biggest whiner in the league, your captain should be playing in the AHL. You just fired the best coach you guys ever had now you have to use Quinn just cuz you wanna be like the Buds. Leafs have the most potential coming up with Kadri and already a stanley cup contender what are the Oilers doing sucking of course with kids who can hardly skate and take a check. Get a real coach and GM like Burke then start chirping the leafs, cuz everyone know by the end of the year leafs will be in the playoffs and Oilers will be playing golf
Wow you seem to know alot about the Oilers for a leafs fan. Jealous, or do you want Quinn to come back. For my money the Oilers are more of a playoff team than the Leafs. Kadri need to gain some weight to be considered an up and coming player, Souray is in the same caliber as Kaberle and I dont think Souray is the best Leafs Dman. But keep wagging the flag guest. |
| Guest9494 |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 10:40:04
Beans your just jealous of the leafs we all know there better than the Oilers. Cogalino can't make it past the 3rd line Souray is the biggest whiner in the league, your captain should be playing in the AHL. You just fired the best coach you guys ever had now you have to use Quinn just cuz you wanna be like the Buds. Leafs have the most potential coming up with Kadri and already a stanley cup contender what are the Oilers doing sucking of course with kids who can hardly skate and take a check. Get a real coach and GM like Burke then start chirping the leafs, cuz everyone know by the end of the year leafs will be in the playoffs and Oilers will be playing golf |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 06:30:35
Remember what some of us posted in here. It is a long season and it is full of ups and downs. Looks like the Leafs are coming back down from their latest high.
Also, the only stats that count are the real stats of todays game. No use arguing about what stats could be if there was not shootouts or under another system. The stats for todays Leafs still show a team that is not that good. However, they show glimpses of the team that Burke is building and no matter if you hate the Leafs or not they are a team on the verge of being good, really good. |
| Canucks Man |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 23:58:06
I for one think all the bickering about OT and SO losses should stop, it is what it is and there is no changing it at least this season. It doesn't count strickly as a loss because even though you lose you still earn points in the standings. There is really no need to say things like "I don't count shoot outs as wins or losses, just ties" because it is wins and losses simple as that.
The leafs will not make the playoffs this season because they got off to way to bad of a start, and their goaltending as been god awful.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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| hanley6 |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 22:59:08
quote:
Originally posted by irvine
The only thing I currently see actually happening is, the eggnog. It sure is yummy.
As for the Leafs making it in to the Playoffs, even as 8th seed, I'm just not falling for it.
As said, it is POSSIBLE. When you look at the math behind it. But I don't believe it's doable.
Irvine
possible and doable, same thing
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP |
| irvine |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 21:15:14
The only thing I currently see actually happening is, the eggnog. It sure is yummy.
As for the Leafs making it in to the Playoffs, even as 8th seed, I'm just not falling for it.
As said, it is POSSIBLE. When you look at the math behind it. But I don't believe it's doable.
Irvine |
| n/a |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 19:21:01
I actually meant that now - RIGHT NOW, the Leafs are a 5 game win streak away from needing to play .500 the rest of the year. This is all off the top of my head, and I've been drinking it up (see: nog), but even with tonight's loss, I'll do the math:
Leafs still have 31 points, but now only have 47 games left. I said they are a 5 game winning streak + playing .500 the rest of the way from making the playoffs . . .
5 wins starting tomorrow night, that's 10 more points, with 42 games left. Now we're up to 41 points.
Half of 42 is 21, so 21 wins is 42 points. 42 + 41 = 83. To get to the needed 94 points, we need 11 more OTLs . . . so that makes a 5 game win streak, and then going 21-10-11.
Hey, it's doable, not impossible . . . and this egg nog is terrific.
The math works for me!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 13:40:38
Oh, hey Slozo, my .600 comment isn't wrong if you measure things in the old world, where a team didn't get rewarded for the OT loss.
And you are dead right, a 5 game win streak and .500 the rest of the way is pretty much what a team needs to get a playoff spot. However, the Leafs are NOT .500. So they need to get to .500 and then go on a 5 game win streak.
The Leafs today are 12-15-7. The would need another 6-3-1 to get to 18-18-8 for that .500 record and have 44 points with 38 games remaining. Now, let's go on that 5 game streak to get to .500 + 5 games. So we are now at 23-18-8 for 54 points with 33 games remaining. Now, let's play .500 the rest of the way in, throwing in even 1/3 the losses as OT losses. So the Leafs wrap up at about 40-30-12. There, we go to 92 points for the 8th spot!!
We just had to go 28-15-5 the rest of the way. By my crazy math, .583. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 13:21:25
Mr. Roberts, the thing with the Leafs is the are similar to the Yankees in baseball minus the winning. They are the team you either love or hate. There is nothing indifferent. Even if the Leafs won, they would still be hated. It's not a personal thing.
And Slozo, I will accept that I protest too much. Everyone has to have at least one flaw, I guess you found mine. Now I have a resolution for next year and I can go back to being perfect!
Now, the OTL thing is dead on. I love the shootout for entertainment but I strongly agree that the success of game should not be based on a breakaway. I like the world of ties.
Anyway, I took a look at the current standings and removed all shootout wins, making them ties. I also removed all shootout losses, making them ties, and turned all the actual overtime loses into loses. Here is what I get for overall rankings (number in brakets is today's rules rankings). So as you can see, the top 10 is pretty much the same. Chicago and Washington switch places. However, a couple of teams make big jumps or drops such as Philly and Florida.
Toronto is still 29th.
PIT 1 (1)
CHI 2 (6)
SJS 3 (3)
LAK 4 (4)
NJD 5 (5)
WSH 6 (2)
PHX 7 (8)
COL 8 (9)
CGY 9 (10)
NSH 10 (7)
BUF 11 (11)
VAN 12 (15)
DET 13 (12)
OTT 14 (16)
ATL 15 (13)
MIN 16 (18)
CBJ 17 (19)
DAL 18 (14)
BOS 19 (17)
EDM 20 (21)
PHI 21 (27)
NYI 22 (22)
NYR 23 (23)
ANA 24 (24)
STL 25 (25)
MTL 26 (26)
FLA 27 (20)
TBL 28 (28)
TOR 29 (29)
CAR 30 (30)
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| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 12:33:22
Nice post slozo,
So you're telling me theres a chance? (Dumb and Dumber)
Beans,
If I cheered for a team other than Toronto I would hate their guts for the amount of coverage they get for being a sucky team, but that being said, as a leafs fan i dont mind it haha.
No one can tell you who to cheer for, im sure there are a few people who werent to happy with me when I was ripping on the habs last year. You can make a thousand valid points as to why the habs are a great franchise but I just dont care, its in my blood to hate the habs.
I actually think alot more people would warm up to the leafs if they had of won at least 1 championship in the past 40 years and/or if they didnt make so much money. They are a pretty classy organization but it gets smudged by the fact that tickets are expensive and the team has been piss poor since the lockout. Like really, its not as if the team has guys like ruutu or cooke on the team, the core of the club is made up of guys like stajan, kaberle, ian white, alex ponikarovsky, all players who play clean hard hockey.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| n/a |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 11:38:49
Thou dost protest too much. I'll leave it at that, Beans, and move on to the points you made then.
False Argument #1: a regulation time loss = an O/T loss = a shootout loss
How anyone can argue that the value for these losses is the same is beyond me. Even an O/T loss . . . it's not 5 on 5 hockey, and with any penalty, it's 4 on 3. It's a pond hockey game, meant to encourage scoring (which it does to some extent).
A shootout is garbage in my mind - a like having a home run derby to determine the winner of a baseball game tied after 9 innings. I find it laughable that anyone would say "a loss is a loss" when talking about shootout losses, which is as good as a coin toss on most nights.
Just because NHL.COM doesn't differentiate between o/t losses and shootout lossed, doesn't mean we as discerning fans can't see the difference.
Of the badly named "OTL - OverTime Losses", which of course actually means overtime losses AND shootout losses combined - the Leafs have 7, 2 of which are shootout losses. If I count every shootout as a tie (the wins and the losses both), and make the O/T scores stand as straight up wins/losses, here is the Leafs record:
11 wins, 20 losses, 3 ties
No, not very good. But good enough to be at the bottom of a very tight pack in the conference, 4 points out of 8th spot among a group of 7 teams. The team in that 8th spot, the final playoff spot? Florida, with a record of 14-14-7. If I make all shootouts ties, and all o/t losses count as straight losses, Florida's record:
11 wins, 20 losses, 1 tie
Kind of puts things into perspective, hunh? It really evens up the entire standings, in fact, when applying this principle . . . as we see that top teams like Pittsburgh (4-0 in shootouts), New Jersey (4-1 in shootouts), and Boston (3-1 in shootouts) have really benefitted and have their stats padded as a result, just like Florida's wins are padded. Pittsburgh being 20-11-4 under my "system" is still a great record . . . but they'd be tied with NJ and behind Washington as a result.
So: knowing that at least one or two playoff teams in the east will have "losing records", it is certainly not out of the realm of possibility that the Leafs could battle for a playoff spot and sneak in.
Especially when all it would take is getting a bounce here or there in the shootout.
False Argument #2: The Leafs need to play .600 hockey the rest of the way to make the playoffs
The Leafs have 48 games remaining, and let's say that this year, to be certain, you might need 94 points to grab a playoff spot. The Leafs now have 31 points, so they'd need 63 points in their remaining 48 . . . so let's give out some potential records that would get them there:
24 wins, 9 losses, 15 OTL . . . a .500 record.
26 wins, 12 losses, 10 OTL . . . a slightly better win .500
etc.
You get the picture - just like all the teams battling in the eastern and even western conference, they are all one 5 game win streak and then playing .500 the rest of the season from a solid spot in the playoffs.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/18/2009 : 09:06:20
I am not a Leaf hater, I am a realist. Are the Leafs my favorite team, nope. Not even close. But I watch nearly every Leaf game that is on TV that I can get.
What I hate is the illogical thought process involved in stating the team is better than what it is. What I also hate is unreasonable media coverage for a team that is no where near being a contender yet get more coverage than any other team.
That's what I hate. I used to hate all things Leafs, but I have come to the realization that my hate needed to be more specific.
And who cares who I cheer for or who my team's rivals are?? I can dislike any team I want whenever I want.
If you look back, I don't argue everything Leafs, just the things that are illogical in my eyes. |
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