| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 12/04/2008 : 15:02:51
Note to Admin: Feel free to erase or block this topic if you feel it has no business on this forum I fully understand it is not hockey related and I am just searching for a broadened opinion on this subject as I feel it has a huge effect on everyone participating on this site.
How do you feel about the Governor Generals decision to suspend parliament for a period of 7 weeks, and do you feel we would be better off with a coalition or our elected Prime Minister Steven Harper?
Pasty |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Guest8332 |
Posted - 12/16/2008 : 10:11:25
Spin doctors without borders. It should be the new organization created to help all governments at a price of course due to these uncertain economic times.
Dictator with ethnic cleansing issues - call those eradicated rebels.
Dodging thrown shoes - call it like being booed at a rally
Those who are willing to remove you from power - coalition
Same coalition members who are willing to keep you in power - working with the government.
If you need spin help. Call us anytime, anywhere in the world. Spin doctors without borders at 800-SPIN-DOC. |
| Odin |
Posted - 12/16/2008 : 09:12:20
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0965
Love the spin doctors. You are in a coalition if you threaten to take away power from the Conservatives. But if you are willing to prop up a lame duck then you are working with the government.
These political parties especially the PC must pay hundreds of millions for these spin doctors. Maybe it is the same spin doctors that sold the weapons of mass destruction and cigarettes are harmless campaign to the US people.
Weapons of mass destruction? Two different countries, two entirely different scenarios. Now THAT is some spin. The Liberals never met a spin doctor they didn't love. They employ a whole army of these guys. Remember the hidden agenda that never materialized?
Would that lame duck would be Dion? |
| Guest0965 |
Posted - 12/15/2008 : 17:46:56
Love the spin doctors. You are in a coalition if you threaten to take away power from the Conservatives. But if you are willing to prop up a lame duck then you are working with the government.
These political parties especially the PC must pay hundreds of millions for these spin doctors. Maybe it is the same spin doctors that sold the weapons of mass destruction and cigarettes are harmless campaign to the US people. |
| Odin |
Posted - 12/15/2008 : 08:57:58
quote:
Originally posted by ThorntonisTHEMAN
Guest 0965, as much as I REALLY want to get into the socialism vs. morality debate, I am afraid that it is too off-subject from the original topic. So unless I would get a mods approval (Beans???) I will stay away from that for now.
However, I would like to talk about the whole "buying an election." Politics, like anything else, is HUGELY affected by advertising! Just like in business, if you have a product that you want to sell, you have to market it. Even if you have a great product, it will not sell unless you make people want to buy it. So yes, politics falls under this as well whether it be Obama, the Conservatives, the Liberals or anybody.
HOWEVER, something that needs to be considered is the media. I guess I can't speak for the rest of Canada but Ontario's media is extremely liberal. Most of the major newspapers around here are liberal. CTV and CBC are both very liberal. Hollywood and all the movies that we see are full of liberalism. We are taught liberalism in schools.
Now, I have always been taught that before you make a major decision, you need to look at both sides of the issue. And this is not happening in our country. If you dare to disagree with the norm you are considered a bigot and unintelligent. I'm not that far removed from high school and in my grade 12 Law class I had to give a presentation on abortion. I was the ONLY person in the class that was against abortion. The Liberal media plays a huge part in how we as Canadians think and therefore it is an uphill battle for the Conservative party in every single election.
Oh ya, and I'm done finals!!!!!!! 
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull.
You are absolutely correct! The media in Ontario is HUGELY biased towards the Liberals. That is one thing I find incredibly frustrating. They were so quick to buy the Liberal line about Harpers "hidden agenda." That is just one of MANY examples. |
| Odin |
Posted - 12/15/2008 : 08:53:22
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5679
quote:
Originally posted by Oilers 4ever
[Harper has lost the confidence of the Conservative party and he should call another election and let us decide.
a new election is the last thing we need, do u know how much it would cost... MILLIONS!
About $300 million... |
| Odin |
Posted - 12/15/2008 : 08:52:52
quote:
Originally posted by I´m also Cånädiön
quote:
Originally posted by Odin
And that would all be very fine, if the notwithstanding clause (our forefathers had some foresight) hadn't been made into a curse word, thanks to, you guessed it: The wonderful Liberal party of Canada. Wonder where they were when the Parti Quebecois used that exact same clause to take rights away from everyday people.
I don´t know that much about internal canadian politics but feel free to elaborate on the above, sounds interesting.
I thought I had elaborated. Which part, because I could go on all day about this. |
| Guest5679 |
Posted - 12/14/2008 : 02:20:20
quote:
Originally posted by Oilers 4ever
[Harper has lost the confidence of the Conservative party and he should call another election and let us decide.
a new election is the last thing we need, do u know how much it would cost... MILLIONS! |
| Guest0965 |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 15:42:05
quote:
Originally posted by ThorntonisTHEMAN
Guest 0965, as much as I REALLY want to get into the socialism vs. morality debate, I am afraid that it is too off-subject from the original topic. So unless I would get a mods approval (Beans???) I will stay away from that for now.
Not debate, I just don't understand what you mean by it. |
| ThorntonisTHEMAN |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 15:28:07
Guest 0965, as much as I REALLY want to get into the socialism vs. morality debate, I am afraid that it is too off-subject from the original topic. So unless I would get a mods approval (Beans???) I will stay away from that for now.
However, I would like to talk about the whole "buying an election." Politics, like anything else, is HUGELY affected by advertising! Just like in business, if you have a product that you want to sell, you have to market it. Even if you have a great product, it will not sell unless you make people want to buy it. So yes, politics falls under this as well whether it be Obama, the Conservatives, the Liberals or anybody.
HOWEVER, something that needs to be considered is the media. I guess I can't speak for the rest of Canada but Ontario's media is extremely liberal. Most of the major newspapers around here are liberal. CTV and CBC are both very liberal. Hollywood and all the movies that we see are full of liberalism. We are taught liberalism in schools.
Now, I have always been taught that before you make a major decision, you need to look at both sides of the issue. And this is not happening in our country. If you dare to disagree with the norm you are considered a bigot and unintelligent. I'm not that far removed from high school and in my grade 12 Law class I had to give a presentation on abortion. I was the ONLY person in the class that was against abortion. The Liberal media plays a huge part in how we as Canadians think and therefore it is an uphill battle for the Conservative party in every single election.
Oh ya, and I'm done finals!!!!!!!
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
| Guest4751 |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 15:20:43
I think this is being blown out of proportion. We already have a coalition government. The conservatives do not have the power pass anything without the help of other parties. This would be a different coalition. As long as political leaders care more about a lobbyists opinion than the opinion of average citizens it doesn't matter whose in power, because its not us. |
| I´m also Cånädiön |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 14:19:32
quote:
Originally posted by Odin
And that would all be very fine, if the notwithstanding clause (our forefathers had some foresight) hadn't been made into a curse word, thanks to, you guessed it: The wonderful Liberal party of Canada. Wonder where they were when the Parti Quebecois used that exact same clause to take rights away from everyday people.
I don´t know that much about internal canadian politics but feel free to elaborate on the above, sounds interesting. |
| Guest6346 |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 13:02:35
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I maybe didn't explain myself that well. It's not that the Oil industry is not feeling the impacts of the economy and specifically the low dollar and low oil price. However, the are not feeling the same impacts as manufacturing, retail, or other commodity industries (lumber, mining, etc). Reason being is that the demand will remain stonger for oil than most other comodities(other than food). Energy is still required, even if the economy stinks.
So yes, you are right that people in the oil industry should be uncomfortable. But not as uncomfortable as other industries.
And as I said, the industry is not growing, but not shrinking either. The $100 million drop in spending by Encana and Petro Canada for example still leaves their overall capital spending higher than it was 2 years ago.
No Growth does not mean a shrinking industry, but I can mean a shrinking labour force.
Yes, we are saying the same thing. Hope Canada and Fort Mac will get through this |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 12:48:29
I maybe didn't explain myself that well. It's not that the Oil industry is not feeling the impacts of the economy and specifically the low dollar and low oil price. However, the are not feeling the same impacts as manufacturing, retail, or other commodity industries (lumber, mining, etc). Reason being is that the demand will remain stonger for oil than most other comodities(other than food). Energy is still required, even if the economy stinks.
So yes, you are right that people in the oil industry should be uncomfortable. But not as uncomfortable as other industries.
And as I said, the industry is not growing, but not shrinking either. The $100 million drop in spending by Encana and Petro Canada for example still leaves their overall capital spending higher than it was 2 years ago.
No Growth does not mean a shrinking industry, but I can mean a shrinking labour force. |
| Guest6196 |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 11:24:29
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6196
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Here's one more little tidbit if info to think about.
The agriculture and forestry industries of Western Canada have been in turmoil for the past few years. Primarily the Beef industry from BSE and the Lumber industry first from the Softwood Tarriffs from the States and then the Mountain Pine Beetle infestation.
The Agricultre and Forestry industries contributed $26.9 billion dollars to the GDP of Canada in 2007.
Now, the Automobile industry contributes only $14.1 billion dollars to the GDP of the country, yet there is huge pressure on the Government for a bailout or stimulus for the auto industry???
I can appreciate that there are troubled times in the East and that it is more than just the Auto industry taking a hit, but where was the help for the poor Alberta farmer who couldn't sell his cattle or the logger in northern BC staring into a forest of dead pine???
Now the Oil industry in AB are in troubled times. The bigger the peek the bigger the valley. When you have welders and pipe fitters making more than the accountants there needs to be a economic downfall to get the nation back on track.
As much as I am a Liberal i do believe Harper won the election and should be the PM till 2011.
Also if G.Bush Jr. did not spend the amounts he did for the war the US would not be quite as bad off.
Couple of things:
1) Oil in Alberta is no worse than it was 3 years ago. Obviously the price of Oil does have an economic impact, but it's still the cash cow. Alberta is still relatively strong in unemployment and the government is still running in the black so it's not that bad. It's more fear mongering by the media and the oil companies. No growth does not equal a decline! However, if the government is going to stimulate the economy with infastructure, it makes sense to further develop refining and pipelines in the west. Ultimately, if I was PM for a day, I would fund the building of two new refineries, one in Ontario and one in BC. At the same time, Pipeline the tarsands to those refineries and be able to export refined products(at a higher value) to the Asian and American Eastern seaboard. Puts people to work in areas that are hurting today and keeps the viability of the western Oil industry. Sure, I'd have the environmentalists on my back, but I think that people as a whole would not complain too much. If it a choice betwen feeding your family or not, most would choose feeding their family.
2) I agree that Harper won the election and should at least have a shot at running the government. I think that is the thing that put the bad taste in a lot of people's mouth. The fact that the Opposition appeared to be oportunistic in taking power. Give Harper a shot at least at a budget. If that fails, then go back to an election. That seems like the fair, democratic thing to do and what the majority of Canadians can agree with.
3) With or without the war, the Americans would have been in the exact same position. The root cause of the entire "recession" is poor regulations and laws governing the financial sector. It is the lack of credit and the mismanagement of companies using that credit that caused the issue. All other issues are driven from that. These things would have happened regardless of the war. However, the government would have been in a far better situation to help the economy (without digging into the future of the country) without the billions(maybe trillions) spent on Iraq. The fatal flaw with the Iraq War was that once the non-existant weapons of mass destruction were not not found, the US should have gottten the hell out of dodge. They had no reason to stay after that. Saddam was out of power, they had no nukes, they had no reason to be there other than greed and pride. They didn't want another Vietnam on their conscience and they like that black gold under the Iraqi desert.
The Sheep has spoken!
Regarding the oil, it is worse off. Not to name companies but projects have been put on the shelf, refineries have closed and moved elsewere and guys are leaving for turn arounds and are being told not to come back. There is a drop in oil extraction. If I was still in the Oil Industry (which I left a year ago to pursue other career opportunities) I would be very nervous. I still know a lot of high up people with oil firms who say it is slowing down and it is in troubled times. People who are very high with Oil companies in Fort Mac tell me they need to produce at $70.00 a barrel to make money. Mostly because of the inflated wages. When I started it was $12.00.
As for infrastructure you are right. That will keep going. A economic downfall is the best time for infrastructure. The gov gets labour and material at a great rate.
I know it is hard to look outside AB when you are living in such a vibrant market but it will slow down tremendously. Like in the 80's. |
| Odin |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 10:41:43
quote:
Originally posted by I´m also Cånädiön
quote:
Originally posted by Odin
With regards to the socialism over morality, I agree with that as well. We would rather spend to make everybody happy, rather than doing what is right.
Ideology, morality and politics are three separate things. How the majority of people in different countries view left and right politics vary depending on many things. One of these things are the history of respective country. In south america right wing politics do not have a high standing because the USA had the habit of replace the democratically elected left wing leaders with dictators that where loyal to the US. The opposite can be seen in many former soviet states. Having been occupied by the soviets, right wing politics are generally more trusted than the opposite.
The political compass vary from country to country. For instance the Democratic party in the US would be seen as very right wing in some countries.
Personally I believe that taxfunded healthcare and education is a good thing as healthy citizens with acess to education have very few reasons to engage in criminal activities.
They may be different things, but they intricately linked. Politically appointed judges, creating law due to their idealism, using their position to trample on the morality of a country, whose majority didn't want it in the first place. These judges passed a law that the ruling Liberals voted AGAINST a couple of years earlier.
Therefore, you have unelected judges creating law. That isn't right. It is supposed to be the House of Commons, with the help of the Senate that creates law. And that would all be very fine, if the notwithstanding clause (our forefathers had some foresight) hadn't been made into a curse word, thanks to, you guessed it: The wonderful Liberal party of Canada. Wonder where they were when the Parti Quebecois used that exact same clause to take rights away from everyday people. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 10:20:13
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6196
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Here's one more little tidbit if info to think about.
The agriculture and forestry industries of Western Canada have been in turmoil for the past few years. Primarily the Beef industry from BSE and the Lumber industry first from the Softwood Tarriffs from the States and then the Mountain Pine Beetle infestation.
The Agricultre and Forestry industries contributed $26.9 billion dollars to the GDP of Canada in 2007.
Now, the Automobile industry contributes only $14.1 billion dollars to the GDP of the country, yet there is huge pressure on the Government for a bailout or stimulus for the auto industry???
I can appreciate that there are troubled times in the East and that it is more than just the Auto industry taking a hit, but where was the help for the poor Alberta farmer who couldn't sell his cattle or the logger in northern BC staring into a forest of dead pine???
Now the Oil industry in AB are in troubled times. The bigger the peek the bigger the valley. When you have welders and pipe fitters making more than the accountants there needs to be a economic downfall to get the nation back on track.
As much as I am a Liberal i do believe Harper won the election and should be the PM till 2011.
Also if G.Bush Jr. did not spend the amounts he did for the war the US would not be quite as bad off.
Couple of things:
1) Oil in Alberta is no worse than it was 3 years ago. Obviously the price of Oil does have an economic impact, but it's still the cash cow. Alberta is still relatively strong in unemployment and the government is still running in the black so it's not that bad. It's more fear mongering by the media and the oil companies. No growth does not equal a decline! However, if the government is going to stimulate the economy with infastructure, it makes sense to further develop refining and pipelines in the west. Ultimately, if I was PM for a day, I would fund the building of two new refineries, one in Ontario and one in BC. At the same time, Pipeline the tarsands to those refineries and be able to export refined products(at a higher value) to the Asian and American Eastern seaboard. Puts people to work in areas that are hurting today and keeps the viability of the western Oil industry. Sure, I'd have the environmentalists on my back, but I think that people as a whole would not complain too much. If it a choice betwen feeding your family or not, most would choose feeding their family.
2) I agree that Harper won the election and should at least have a shot at running the government. I think that is the thing that put the bad taste in a lot of people's mouth. The fact that the Opposition appeared to be oportunistic in taking power. Give Harper a shot at least at a budget. If that fails, then go back to an election. That seems like the fair, democratic thing to do and what the majority of Canadians can agree with.
3) With or without the war, the Americans would have been in the exact same position. The root cause of the entire "recession" is poor regulations and laws governing the financial sector. It is the lack of credit and the mismanagement of companies using that credit that caused the issue. All other issues are driven from that. These things would have happened regardless of the war. However, the government would have been in a far better situation to help the economy (without digging into the future of the country) without the billions(maybe trillions) spent on Iraq. The fatal flaw with the Iraq War was that once the non-existant weapons of mass destruction were not not found, the US should have gottten the hell out of dodge. They had no reason to stay after that. Saddam was out of power, they had no nukes, they had no reason to be there other than greed and pride. They didn't want another Vietnam on their conscience and they like that black gold under the Iraqi desert.
The Sheep has spoken! |
| I´m also Cånädiön |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 10:18:33
quote:
Originally posted by Odin
With regards to the socialism over morality, I agree with that as well. We would rather spend to make everybody happy, rather than doing what is right.
Ideology, morality and politics are three separate things. How the majority of people in different countries view left and right politics vary depending on many things. One of these things are the history of respective country. In south america right wing politics do not have a high standing because the USA had the habit of replace the democratically elected left wing leaders with dictators that where loyal to the US. The opposite can be seen in many former soviet states. Having been occupied by the soviets, right wing politics are generally more trusted than the opposite.
The political compass vary from country to country. For instance the Democratic party in the US would be seen as very right wing in some countries.
Personally I believe that taxfunded healthcare and education is a good thing as healthy citizens with acess to education have very few reasons to engage in criminal activities.
|
| Guest4985 |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 09:44:14
Whatever else you think about coalitions in general you can't escape the fact that the Liberals and NDP have gotten into bed with Separatists. These guys are dedicated to destroying Canada. No self-respecting democratic CANADIAN party would ever be caught dead cow-towing to a group whose main purpose is to break up the very parliament they now serve. And if you think just because the Bloc isn't officially in the coalition it's OK then you're naive my friend. The coalition can't work without their support and that's called balance of power. The Bloc will never have a better chance to push forward their agenda, however slightly, and you can be damn sure they'll do everything they can to extract "concessions" in exchange for their support. This coalition will only weaken the country as a result. |
| Guest6196 |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 09:07:36
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Here's one more little tidbit if info to think about.
The agriculture and forestry industries of Western Canada have been in turmoil for the past few years. Primarily the Beef industry from BSE and the Lumber industry first from the Softwood Tarriffs from the States and then the Mountain Pine Beetle infestation.
The Agricultre and Forestry industries contributed $26.9 billion dollars to the GDP of Canada in 2007.
Now, the Automobile industry contributes only $14.1 billion dollars to the GDP of the country, yet there is huge pressure on the Government for a bailout or stimulus for the auto industry???
I can appreciate that there are troubled times in the East and that it is more than just the Auto industry taking a hit, but where was the help for the poor Alberta farmer who couldn't sell his cattle or the logger in northern BC staring into a forest of dead pine???
Now the Oil industry in AB are in troubled times. The bigger the peek the bigger the valley. When you have welders and pipe fitters making more than the accountants there needs to be a economic downfall to get the nation back on track.
As much as I am a Liberal i do believe Harper won the election and should be the PM till 2011.
Also if G.Bush Jr. did not spend the amounts he did for the war the US would not be quite as bad off. |
| Odin |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 09:01:41
One more thing, Thorntonistheman, good call on the evolution issue, it took a great deal of my will not to open up that can of worms. |
| Odin |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 08:59:48
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0965
quote:
Originally posted by ThorntonisTHEMAN
If I would be a liberal advisor, I would've told the party to wait a couple years, let the Conservatives run the country during the economic recession and THEN overturn the government. My reasons?
1. Because the country is in a recession, Harper will look like the bad guy. Is it his fault? No. But because of the economic situation, people will view him as a bad PM.
2. The Liberals have zero money right now and the Conservatives have money. An election now would result in the Conservatives WAY outspending the Liberals to win a majority.
3. At least waiting to overturn the government wil the budget comes out will allow us to see exactly what the USA is doing with the auto crisis and we can then do the same thing.
However, the Liberals didn't listen to me and look like idiots by teaming up with the NDP and the SEPERATISTS (sorry, whoever said that they are Soveriegnists is dead wrong).
Being a staunch conservative, I would love to see an election when they wanted to overturn the government. However, because they are waiting til the budget, I can see another minority because Canadian people seem to prefer socialism to morality.
But now that I have taken a good hour away from my studying, I will get back to that. It was definitely worth it tho cuz this topic has some very interesting reading! ALtho I'm sure I'll be regretting taking this time when i'm writing my final tonight!
Oh, and I'm ALso Canadian, let's NOT get started on the evolution debate on here. Not the time or place or forum
Thornton good points.
1. Some will say that we are not technically within the formal definition of a recession. There has to be two consecutive....
2. A shame isn't it the north american democracy is not about who is going to do what is right or wrong? It is about who has the most money to spend on to get the message out to the public. Obama probably out spent all candidates combined. Only Hillary rivaled his expense on the election and she was easily $10M less than Obama's. I also wonder when the money to the parties would be doled out based on electoral votes? Is it in installments or a one time chunk at some set time period?
3. I think that is what Ignatieff plans to do. I'm sure there will be some major back room dealing before this budget goes out on the 27th.
4. It was I who called them Soverigntists. If separation from Canada is in the best interest of the Quebec, then the Bloc will do so. However I don't see that being in the best interest of Quebec at the moment considering the massive amount of debt the province would incur. Being the highest taxed citizens in Canada on top of the massive debt is not going to please Quebecers nor is it within their interests. The Bloc has a very clear agenda, to do that which is in the interest of Quebec. That's why the people voted their MPs were voted into Parliament. Maybe a party should be started in each of the province that would only look after its self interest (though some cynics would say that only Ontario and the Maritimes are missing from the fray to make this an actuality). Then each provincially based federal (oxymoron if there was ever one) party can vote on a supreme chancellor and then.... you can read Radoria's post.
5. I don't understand the "Canadian prefer socialism over morality" statement. Maybe when you are done your exams you can elaborate.
6. Good luck on your exam, those night time ones are killers.
Guest, there we go, we can finally agree on something. It is not in Quebec's best interest to separate, and it never will be. Their economy is in shambles WITH all the handouts they get from the ROC. I would truly like to see them try it alone for a while so that, perhaps, they would come to appreciate what the ROC actually does for them. One correction: they are the highest taxed area in North America.
But they are the authors of their own misfortunes. Once they introduced the anti-Anglophone bill 101, the exodus was staggering. Montreal once once somewhat of an envy, as they had many head offices, which generated a ton of cash for them. Because of bill 101, they moved elsewhere.
It doesn't necessarily have to be Quebec that votes itself out. We can ask them to leave. It would be Soooo much cheaper for the rest of us. Failing that however, I would love to see a politician, any politician, call them on their bluff. Maybe then they would stop the extortion.
With regards to the socialism over morality, I agree with that as well. We would rather spend to make everybody happy, rather than doing what is right. We complain that our youth have no moral compasses, but we are digging our own hole in this because we are eroding our own moral fabric by trying to make everybody happy. For example (and yes, this is a soft sell), newcomers to our country now expect to bring their way of life with them, instead of adopting the Canadian way of life. This causes obvious problems. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY!
|
| Guest0965 |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 17:22:04
quote:
Originally posted by ThorntonisTHEMAN
If I would be a liberal advisor, I would've told the party to wait a couple years, let the Conservatives run the country during the economic recession and THEN overturn the government. My reasons?
1. Because the country is in a recession, Harper will look like the bad guy. Is it his fault? No. But because of the economic situation, people will view him as a bad PM.
2. The Liberals have zero money right now and the Conservatives have money. An election now would result in the Conservatives WAY outspending the Liberals to win a majority.
3. At least waiting to overturn the government wil the budget comes out will allow us to see exactly what the USA is doing with the auto crisis and we can then do the same thing.
However, the Liberals didn't listen to me and look like idiots by teaming up with the NDP and the SEPERATISTS (sorry, whoever said that they are Soveriegnists is dead wrong).
Being a staunch conservative, I would love to see an election when they wanted to overturn the government. However, because they are waiting til the budget, I can see another minority because Canadian people seem to prefer socialism to morality.
But now that I have taken a good hour away from my studying, I will get back to that. It was definitely worth it tho cuz this topic has some very interesting reading! ALtho I'm sure I'll be regretting taking this time when i'm writing my final tonight!
Oh, and I'm ALso Canadian, let's NOT get started on the evolution debate on here. Not the time or place or forum
Thornton good points.
1. Some will say that we are not technically within the formal definition of a recession. There has to be two consecutive....
2. A shame isn't it the north american democracy is not about who is going to do what is right or wrong? It is about who has the most money to spend on to get the message out to the public. Obama probably out spent all candidates combined. Only Hillary rivaled his expense on the election and she was easily $10M less than Obama's. I also wonder when the money to the parties would be doled out based on electoral votes? Is it in installments or a one time chunk at some set time period?
3. I think that is what Ignatieff plans to do. I'm sure there will be some major back room dealing before this budget goes out on the 27th.
4. It was I who called them Soverigntists. If separation from Canada is in the best interest of the Quebec, then the Bloc will do so. However I don't see that being in the best interest of Quebec at the moment considering the massive amount of debt the province would incur. Being the highest taxed citizens in Canada on top of the massive debt is not going to please Quebecers nor is it within their interests. The Bloc has a very clear agenda, to do that which is in the interest of Quebec. That's why the people voted their MPs were voted into Parliament. Maybe a party should be started in each of the province that would only look after its self interest (though some cynics would say that only Ontario and the Maritimes are missing from the fray to make this an actuality). Then each provincially based federal (oxymoron if there was ever one) party can vote on a supreme chancellor and then.... you can read Radoria's post.
5. I don't understand the "Canadian prefer socialism over morality" statement. Maybe when you are done your exams you can elaborate.
6. Good luck on your exam, those night time ones are killers. |
| ThorntonisTHEMAN |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 13:42:58
If I would be a liberal advisor, I would've told the party to wait a couple years, let the Conservatives run the country during the economic recession and THEN overturn the government. My reasons?
1. Because the country is in a recession, Harper will look like the bad guy. Is it his fault? No. But because of the economic situation, people will view him as a bad PM.
2. The Liberals have zero money right now and the Conservatives have money. An election now would result in the Conservatives WAY outspending the Liberals to win a majority.
3. At least waiting to overturn the government wil the budget comes out will allow us to see exactly what the USA is doing with the auto crisis and we can then do the same thing.
However, the Liberals didn't listen to me and look like idiots by teaming up with the NDP and the SEPERATISTS (sorry, whoever said that they are Soveriegnists is dead wrong).
Being a staunch conservative, I would love to see an election when they wanted to overturn the government. However, because they are waiting til the budget, I can see another minority because Canadian people seem to prefer socialism to morality.
But now that I have taken a good hour away from my studying, I will get back to that. It was definitely worth it tho cuz this topic has some very interesting reading! ALtho I'm sure I'll be regretting taking this time when i'm writing my final tonight!
Oh, and I'm ALso Canadian, let's NOT get started on the evolution debate on here. Not the time or place or forum |
| admin |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 13:35:24
Odin and Guest 0965 (and everyone else). Stop the personal attacks! I realize this is an exceptionally sensitive subject and we knew we were walking a fine line keeping this thread up without it being hockey related (although hockey and Canada are indeed synonymous)
Both of you are obviously very intelligent and are putting up engaging and thought provoking insight, however, like a couple politicians, you are both diminishing your credibility with the back and forth school yard bickering. Please stop the attempts to incite each other. Further posts of that nature will be removed. If you have a problem with this do not discuss it in this thread as the posts will also be removed. You can instead voice your concerns via email to admin at pickuphockey dot com if you wish. Thank you for your immediate attention to this.
I also invite you to read and understand our forum guidelines which can be found here: http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2160 |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 11:45:55
Guys, Last warning. Start arguing the points and stop arguing the people making the points. This thread will be shut down at the next personal attack.
Keep it on topic and things are fine. |
| Odin |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 11:28:58
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0965
Odin you truly have a problem. To complement Beans on something somehow turns it into something about you. Might want to seek some help.
Nowhere did I say that I agree or disagree with with Beans' post. I thought it as original and intelligent. If you happen to read the entire thread, you will see that Beans himself said he was a sheep.
However, this last post makes you less sheepish. A post with some content that did not come straight out of the PC line. It is a start so keep it up. Does it mean that I agree or disagree with everything you said? Nope.
And you know what? You can take credit for this exchange with your infantile name calling. |
| Odin |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 11:26:59
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0965
Odin you truly have a problem. To complement Beans on something somehow turns it into something about you. Might want to seek some help.
Nowhere did I say that I agree or disagree with with Beans' post. I thought it as original and intelligent. If you happen to read the entire thread, you will see that Beans himself said he was a sheep.
However, this last post makes you less sheepish. A post with some content that did not come straight out of the PC line. It is a start so keep it up. Does it mean that I agree or disagree with everything you said? Nope.
You see, this is the problem with you. You make all sorts of unfounded assumptions. If you have been following, you would have seen that it is quite clear that I've read the entire thread. You are being a hypocrite, not to mention evasive, because you address nothing I say to you directly. EVER. Its just plain weak.
This has nothing to do with what you are saying to Beans. And everything to do with the fact that you keep saying 'sheep". And you bring it up again here.
I shouldn't be surprised that you are an hypocrite and are being evasive, because along with all the leftwing BS you are spouting, these are the characteristics of such people.
Take a look in the mirror will you? |
| Guest0965 |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 11:09:49
Odin you truly have a problem. To complement Beans on something somehow turns it into something about you. Might want to seek some help.
Nowhere did I say that I agree or disagree with with Beans' post. I thought it as original and intelligent. If you happen to read the entire thread, you will see that Beans himself said he was a sheep.
However, this last post makes you less sheepish. A post with some content that did not come straight out of the PC line. It is a start so keep it up. Does it mean that I agree or disagree with everything you said? Nope. |
| Odin |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 09:11:47
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0965
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Some very intelligent and original stuff
I recall that you said you were one of the sheeps. That is definitely false. Your posts are intelligent, well thought out and most importantly original with ideas well beyond the PC status quo. Well done.
Radoria, that was gold. If you could work in the schwartz (maybe beyond your time), that would be awesome.
We know, we know. Anyone who disagrees with you is sheep. We get it.
And anybody who answers that call gets the "am not, you are" arguement.
Truly weak!
Not to put too fine a point on this, but if I was spouting Conservative press releases, would I not, by now, have mentioned the fact that this coalition is undemocratic? You haven't seen that, because I haven't posted it.
Further, I am actually not a fan of everything Harper has done. He has pandered BIG TIME to Quebec in reconizing them as a nation (how quickly they forget) and once again increasing their transfer payments. I completely disagree with both these moves.
Further, he has taken his party so far into the center that they are almost undistinguishable from the Liberals.
And as long as you want to make acusations of unoriginality and spouting press releases and propaganda, you state "62% didn't vote for the Conservatives," but fail to mention that that vote was spread among 4 other parties. That is straight out of the left wing playbook.
The truly sad thing: you don't even see that. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 07:38:24
Don't kid your self about Obama. He might look like smiles and sunshine, but he did not have such a lucrative campaign without getting funding from public interest groups. Weather it was the Heath Care or Education fields or where it was, I don't know. But it was there.
And I am Canadian, you are not 100% correct in your assessment of GWB. I don't deny anything that you said, but his actions did not create all of the problems. It started back in the 80s with Reagan and Bush Sr and really went south in Clinton's time. Ultimately, Clinton was known as such a great president and created such an awesome economy. But really, it he sold the farm for short term gains and the Americans are paying for it today. |
| I´m also Cånädiön |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 05:13:02
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
One other point I wanted to make was that people need to better understand who is actually responsible for what. For example, the current American Recession was not based on anything that George W. Bush did per se. He did not help the situation, but it was not him who caused the situation. Effectively, the laws that governed their financial sectors were mostly built and or evolved through Reagan, Bush Sr. and Clinton. It's important when playing the blame game that the blame is properly distributed. Because of many of these financial laws, other industries were being poorly managed and using primarily credit to finance their businesses. When the banks tightened the purse strings, many of these poorly managed companies were in trouble due to lack of availability to liquid cash. The most important thing to remember in this is that although we are in a period of uncertainty and most likely financial pain, this will force those industries that survive to be better managed and to not over extend themselves. This will make a strong economy after the recession than there was before.
This has more to do with american politics than canadian, but I don´t think people realize how american politics work or how bad shape they are in after 8 years of Bush. The core of the problem is lobbying by mainly american but even foreign corporations. If you take american auto manufacturers as an example: They choose to pay american poiliticians 50mil$+ to make sure they don´t have to face laws that require them to spend and innovate to make more fuel efficient cars. Now when the s*** has hit the fan so to speak, what happens? American taxpayers will have to bail out the auto industri because they in my eyes bribed the politicians, disgusting if you ask me.
Now if you ignore the fact that Bush and company support war profiteering and just look at what has happend with the number of lobbyists in whashington during the last 8 years; you´ll see that they have more than doubled. Do you think corruption has gone up or down?
But it seems like Obama is though on lobbying and has strong ethics so hopefully this will be adressed in the coming years. |
| Guest5716 |
Posted - 12/11/2008 : 01:00:47
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9277
There is a lot NOT to like about this coalition, even though I support it, but it is hard to criticize it for being power-hungry if you support Stephen Harper. If anything comes of this I hope at least Harper learns his lesson that he cannot do whatever he wanted when only 40% of Canada support him.
People keep talking about how only around 40% of the voting population were for the Conservatives. That may be, but the last time I checked, 0% voted for a coalition government! |
| Guest0474 |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 23:14:22
As far as I'm concerned Harper is a brilliant tactician. He has made the opposition look like fools and has the GG dancing to his music. Make no mistake, Harper wants an election in January. He wants his majority and is playing dirty pool to get it. He has half the country seething at the left wing parties. He'll possibly get his majority. He has two solid issues to campaign on with the economy and trashing the coalition. It's honestly genius. I'm loving it, tax breaks for everybody! Harper is acting like a horse's ass and I love it. Sadly it's the only way he can get a majority and he will be toast after this election. If anyone thinks the GG will let the left wing coalition take power, give your head a shake. The GG would be smeared in the history books for eternity. |
| Guest0965 |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 15:22:04
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Some very intelligent and original stuff
I recall that you said you were one of the sheeps. That is definitely false. Your posts are intelligent, well thought out and most importantly original with ideas well beyond the PC status quo. Well done.
Radoria, that was gold. If you could work in the schwartz (maybe beyond your time), that would be awesome. |
| Ripley |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 15:09:01
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
But seriously, now that a couple of weeks are behind us through this political mess, think of what could have happened. In just 14 days, we went from a man nearly taking leadership of the Country to that same man not having leadership of his own party?? Scary!
Actually this is not that scary and is perfectly normal. He went out on an incredible limb, if he was successful he would be looked at historically as a great strategist and this move might have been one of the most daring ang dynamic tactical moves in Canadian political history. However he was unsuccessful and therefore in the interests of saving his party, he is practically obligated to step down. Like a good leader he is doing so. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 14:49:20
Here's one more little tidbit if info to think about.
The agriculture and forestry industries of Western Canada have been in turmoil for the past few years. Primarily the Beef industry from BSE and the Lumber industry first from the Softwood Tarriffs from the States and then the Mountain Pine Beetle infestation.
The Agricultre and Forestry industries contributed $26.9 billion dollars to the GDP of Canada in 2007.
Now, the Automobile industry contributes only $14.1 billion dollars to the GDP of the country, yet there is huge pressure on the Government for a bailout or stimulus for the auto industry???
I can appreciate that there are troubled times in the East and that it is more than just the Auto industry taking a hit, but where was the help for the poor Alberta farmer who couldn't sell his cattle or the logger in northern BC staring into a forest of dead pine??? |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 14:24:43
Ok, taking my moderator hat off for a second, I would like to ensure that everyone clearly knows that I am a non-Extreamist Nationalist first and a Conservative 2nd. I agree with the overall mandate and direction of the Conservative Party in Canada as it most closely links with my own ideals.
That being said at different times in history, even though I am a conservative, another party would be better suited to lead. In times of social uncertainty, the ND would be the best. At times of national evolution, the Liberals. And in financial issues, the Consertavites. Like it or not, the model of supporting big business and Macro economics with a trickle down to the middle class has proven it self time and time again in countries all over the world. The middle class focus first has not been as effective in times of economic struggle. And think of the government as the biggest of all big business. They have the power to put the middle class back to work.
A couple of other things to thing about. Firstly, the current economic situation is not a recession by definition. Odin is correct on that. The economic community all agree that we are heading into a recession. But we also have to remember that Canada is an export driven economy. So we will always be one of the last countries to head into a recession and normally one of the last to pull out of a recession. When the USA comes out of theirs, we will more than likely come out the quarter or 2 afterwards. And on this note, I do agree with Odin in that our financial system is in better shape than the American system. For that reason, our recession should not be quite as painful, but it will be painful enough.
One other point I wanted to make was that people need to better understand who is actually responsible for what. For example, the current American Recession was not based on anything that George W. Bush did per se. He did not help the situation, but it was not him who caused the situation. Effectively, the laws that governed their financial sectors were mostly built and or evolved through Reagan, Bush Sr. and Clinton. It's important when playing the blame game that the blame is properly distributed. Because of many of these financial laws, other industries were being poorly managed and using primarily credit to finance their businesses. When the banks tightened the purse strings, many of these poorly managed companies were in trouble due to lack of availability to liquid cash. The most important thing to remember in this is that although we are in a period of uncertainty and most likely financial pain, this will force those industries that survive to be better managed and to not over extend themselves. This will make a strong economy after the recession than there was before.
Now, back to Canada and this Coalition thing. Sure, it's easy to say that the voting public were 60ish% against Harper, but that's irrelevant. That's not the system. The system is that the party with the largest amount of seats has an opportunity to form the government. This coalition "Coup" if you will was an opportunistic move by greedy politicians to gain power through something called an "opposition day." The opposition gets 6 days a year where than can push anything they want to a vote in Parliament. The confidence vote that was going to take place before being Prorogued was to occur on one of these "opposition days." That is the part I have the biggest issue with as if this situation happened 30 days before the confidence vote would not have been possible. I view that as a hole in the current Political Process that needs to be addressed.
But seriously, now that a couple of weeks are behind us through this political mess, think of what could have happened. In just 14 days, we went from a man nearly taking leadership of the Country to that same man not having leadership of his own party?? Scary!
In the end, I don't think any of the parties got this thing right at all. It is their job now, as the elected government, to work together to address the current issues so that we as Canadians do not feel any more negative impact of this future recession than what we have to. That is what they were elected to do and that is needed. Regardless of who you voted for and who you support, I think we can all agree that none of us voted for or support feeling more pain because the kids in Ottawa can not play in the same sandbox together. Who's at fault and what happened in the past 2 weeks is completely irrelevant. What happens on January 27th is the most important piece of politics that we will have in the next 2-3 years. That is what's important today. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 13:42:56
Who would have thought that all us brutish hockey fans would have insight on a politic level as well.
Although I am a moderator, I will still wait to shut down this thread on Admin's advice. This seems to be a hot stove kind of topic and I love the battles back and forth. I would like to reiterate that even through this is not a hockey thread, the rules of the forum still apply. From all sides and to all members and guests alike, please stop the personal attacks. From the Grade 2 comments to the questioning of people's age. If we keep to arguing opinions and not people, the thread will be all better for it!
Thanks |
| Odin |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 10:00:04
Radoria,
First post: bang on!
Second post: hilarious! |
| Radoria |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 09:59:50
Sorry, that should read "dissolves". |
|
|
