| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Rambo2305 |
Posted - 06/17/2009 : 12:42:55
Ok, so there have been a number of polls comparing the most hated team, best team, worst team etc. This one is simple, pitting Montreal vs. Toronto, the Habs vs. the Buds!
So...
Toronto Maple Leafs or Montreal Canadiens? |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| brentrock2 |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 11:24:15
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4670
toronto rocks
More like HABS haha.. 
HABS RULE!!
brentrock2 |
| Guest4670 |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 11:16:05
toronto rocks |
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 08/24/2009 : 10:27:31
quote:
Originally posted by redneck76ca
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
Sorry, I could have sworn that Hamrlik missed a big chunk of the season last year.... he played 81 games? really?!
Who the hell is Zbynek Michalek?!
Its nice to see on NHL.com that toronto now has 2 of the top 10 and 4 of the top 30 hitters in the NHL. Luke Schenn had even more hits than Komisarek. Exelby and Finger had alot as well. Exelby only played 50 something games to boot.
also, im done fightin' with hab fans. it just brings out the worst in me.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Heres the thing Matt, Markov and Kaberle ARE both good puck moving defencemen and they both skate well and both have good hard shots. But just because they share these traits doesn't mean Kaberle's softness tranfers over to Markov. Thats just stupidly used logic. Markov DOES hit hard, DOES compete hard in the corners and if you asked 100 NHL forwards who they feared most between Kaberle and Markov, ALL of them would say Markov. In fact, most of them would say its no contest with Markov playing a way more gritty, physical game than Kaberle. Saying Markov is soft or a similar player to Kaberle when it comes to toughness is like comparing Grabo to Gretzky. Its just plain ignorance. Watch some hockey and learn something, dude. Your comments tend to be shoot first, and ask questions later.
See the ting is, Kaberle also competes hard in the corners and while he doesnt really hit guys all that much, I dont consider him soft. Most do, that is why i said the same about markov. I've already stated that I dont actually consider Markov soft, it was more of a dig at the same logic that you are ripping me on.
Markov is a better dman and plays a gritter game, i shouldnt have even brought this up.
I've been on edge here with this topic and I shouldnt be. 7752 was right, im getting too into this. Ive been replying with my first thought instead of thinking it through.
So sorry for not knowing who this pheonix Dman was, I follow hockey like crazy and I didnt know who he was. So shoot me.
im not a 15 year old kid ok? ill make sure to have more well thought out postings in the future. You seem like a cool dude redneck and if we were having a hockey conversation face to face im sure your opinion of me would change drastically. I have started and participated in alot of topics involving teams other than the leafs, so dont assume im just a leafs guy.
I look forward to a full season of enjoying some good hockey debates with you guys.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| Axey |
Posted - 08/24/2009 : 09:57:00
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Redneck - so refreshing to get an honest, and logical hockey comment from a Habs fan about the Leafs. Seriously, welcome to this site!
I agree 100% with your assessment, the Leafs PK (which was one of the absolute worst last season) will have (ok, should have) the biggest turnaround of any team. It's one of coach Wilson's specialties, and he has the defencemen now to perform, and it will be stressed for sure considering the tougher make-up of the team now and to come later.
One of the weaknesses might be the powerplay for the Leafs (with the roster they have right now), and on some nights, they just won't have the game-breaker to put them over the top for a win, you are right about that. Still, despite their uninspiring line-up, the Leafs were middle of the pack last year in power play goals, tied for 17th with the Stanley Cup champion Penguins. 16th in power play percentage last year . . . translates into what for this year? No Antropov like they had for most of last year, but . . . I don't see this as a back-breaking thing for the Leafs.
The key thing for me is penalty kill, which is why Primeau was picked up, and which is clearly strengthened by the upgrade in D. That, and keeping third period leads, at which I believe the Leafs were one of the worst teams in the the league.
I'll have to comment on Montreal's weaknesses later, no time now.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
It is going to be hard to have a good penalty kill when your taking 7-8 a night, especially when it is your 'best' penalty killers taking the penalties. |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/21/2009 : 10:23:33
Redneck - so refreshing to get an honest, and logical hockey comment from a Habs fan about the Leafs. Seriously, welcome to this site!
I agree 100% with your assessment, the Leafs PK (which was one of the absolute worst last season) will have (ok, should have) the biggest turnaround of any team. It's one of coach Wilson's specialties, and he has the defencemen now to perform, and it will be stressed for sure considering the tougher make-up of the team now and to come later.
One of the weaknesses might be the powerplay for the Leafs (with the roster they have right now), and on some nights, they just won't have the game-breaker to put them over the top for a win, you are right about that. Still, despite their uninspiring line-up, the Leafs were middle of the pack last year in power play goals, tied for 17th with the Stanley Cup champion Penguins. 16th in power play percentage last year . . . translates into what for this year? No Antropov like they had for most of last year, but . . . I don't see this as a back-breaking thing for the Leafs.
The key thing for me is penalty kill, which is why Primeau was picked up, and which is clearly strengthened by the upgrade in D. That, and keeping third period leads, at which I believe the Leafs were one of the worst teams in the the league.
I'll have to comment on Montreal's weaknesses later, no time now.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Odin |
Posted - 08/21/2009 : 10:20:55
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Been on the road for a few days, so I missed my chance to rebute many posts, but I will try to answer various things here.
1) Someone asked if I would have Avery on the Oilers. Obviously, if I could some how see the future, this would be far easier. However, he's still worth the risk. Some can argue that he can lose a game as fast as he can win a game and they would be right. However, on top of his game, he is not only the best agitator in the league but he IS a legitimate top 6 forward talant on any team in the NHL. People who disagree with that are not seeing his on-ice performance but only his off ice performance. To answer your question, I definately would take Avery onto the Oilers line up. In a heartbeat without any thought what so ever. I can alway drop him if he turns the wrong way. But as I said, the best instigator in the league who can play top 6, that is worth a lot in this game we call hockey.
2) I stand by my "use your noggin" statement. Emphatically. People's arguement towards the Rangers are "it will happen, wait and see" or "they did this or that in the past but it won't continue". Face the facts. The top 4 defense in New York match up with all but the elite top 5 groups of defensemen in the NHL. They have a legitimate 7+ forwards with the ability to score 20+ goals. They have speed, grit, and toughness. They have a world class goalie. That is a recipie for success in any hockey league in the world. Sure, an injury could occur, but that could happen to any team. We will just have to wait and see, but I would not be surprised to see New York with home ice in the playoffs.
3) Markov is soft??? Seriously, that quote itself tells me so much about people's thinking.
4) How many Leaf defensemen have a 40+ point season? Combined how many 40+ point seasons are with the Leafs? How many (+) seasons??? I mean, please. Compare the offensive and defensive production for the 2 groups and it's not even close. Paul Mara, who many consider the #4 or #5 defensemen for Montreal has been more productive player than all the Leafs defensemen save Kaberle.
5) Beachemin over Spacek??? Long term, maybe, Short term, not on your life. And short term is even a tough choice. Spacek is a legitimate 30-40 point scorer. That's Beachemin's highest production and he did that on a Stanley Cup winning team.
As many of you know, I am not the biggest Leaf fan and never will be. As much as Leaf fans drive me nuts some times, you gotta love'em. Their passion and dedication could be the biggest in all of sport. However, try to look at things objectively for a second. Not with what might happen or what you want to happen, but what has actually happened and what is likely to happen.
Beans, as far as being impartial, I couldn't really give a damn about the Rangers, unless they are competing with the Habs for one of the last playoff spots. I actually think its you that needs to use your noggin, and perhaps take the blinders off. You say they have many players who could get 20 goals? That may be true, but I stand by what I said: many of those same players will just as likely get you 10.
Avery a top 6 forward on a normal team? Not likely. He has some skill and is a great 3rd line forward, but as far as a 2nd line forward? Maybe on Phoenix the Islanders and of course the Rangers.
Their top four match up well to all but the top 5 teams? You've gone completely bonkers. Last year: Redden (-5), Giriardi (-14), Rozsival (-7) and Staal (-7). Top point getter? Rozsival with 30. Redden and him\s 8M salary produced all of 26 points. Perhaps you have heard of the bitching going on about the overpaid Redden and Rozsival made 7M? Ridiculous. I don't think you're giving Lundquist enough credit for bailing these turkeys out. As far as Prospal goes, I see that as kind of a wash with losing Zherdev, and actually Zherdev had more points last year.
I do agree with the rest of your post however. |
| redneck76ca |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 22:09:24
quote:
Originally posted by Axey
I didn't know hitting wins games and scores goals? Hmm, who knew? Look for the Habs speedy forwards to put their dangle on past TO this season. Can't argue with facts, also watch the Leafs have a horrific PK and will be shorthanded far too much to even compete most nights.
I acutally think the Leafs PK will be good. We know what their D is like and they have hard working, speedy forwards. Their PP can't be good though. |
| Axey |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 21:29:07
I didn't know hitting wins games and scores goals? Hmm, who knew? Look for the Habs speedy forwards to put their dangle on past TO this season. Can't argue with facts, also watch the Leafs have a horrific PK and will be shorthanded far too much to even compete most nights. |
| Guest6722 |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 20:36:20
anyone that doesn't know who Zbynek Michalek is and thinks Markov is soft is......
A 15 year old kid who watches 10 games a year of his own team and falls asleep within the 1st period saying its too boring and claims to know everything by backing it up with "I play AAA hockey" |
| redneck76ca |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 15:17:08
Oh btw, Gorges does hit, does drop the gloves, does block shots and your ignorance when it comes to any other team than the Leafs is laughable.
Who is Z. Michalek? Really? Watch some hockey dude. Maybe you'll learn something. I take it by your comments that you are 15 or 16 years old? |
| redneck76ca |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 15:13:33
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
Sorry, I could have sworn that Hamrlik missed a big chunk of the season last year.... he played 81 games? really?!
Who the hell is Zbynek Michalek?!
Its nice to see on NHL.com that toronto now has 2 of the top 10 and 4 of the top 30 hitters in the NHL. Luke Schenn had even more hits than Komisarek. Exelby and Finger had alot as well. Exelby only played 50 something games to boot.
also, im done fightin' with hab fans. it just brings out the worst in me.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Heres the thing Matt, Markov and Kaberle ARE both good puck moving defencemen and they both skate well and both have good hard shots. But just because they share these traits doesn't mean Kaberle's softness tranfers over to Markov. Thats just stupidly used logic. Markov DOES hit hard, DOES compete hard in the corners and if you asked 100 NHL forwards who they feared most between Kaberle and Markov, ALL of them would say Markov. In fact, most of them would say its no contest with Markov playing a way more gritty, physical game than Kaberle. Saying Markov is soft or a similar player to Kaberle when it comes to toughness is like comparing Grabo to Gretzky. Its just plain ignorance. Watch some hockey and learn something, dude. Your comments tend to be shoot first, and ask questions later. |
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 12:47:50
Sorry, I could have sworn that Hamrlik missed a big chunk of the season last year.... he played 81 games? really?!
Who the hell is Zbynek Michalek?!
Its nice to see on NHL.com that toronto now has 2 of the top 10 and 4 of the top 30 hitters in the NHL. Luke Schenn had even more hits than Komisarek. Exelby and Finger had alot as well. Exelby only played 50 something games to boot.
also, im done fightin' with hab fans. it just brings out the worst in me.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 12:33:00
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
Hamrlik is lucky he can still skate. The guy spends most of the year on the IR or chasing guys who just blew past him now.
Have a look at the top five shot blockers from last season:
1 Zbynek Michalek PHX D - 82 GP 271 Blocked Shots
2 Brett Clark COL D - 76 GP 238 Blocked Shots
3 Greg Zanon NSH D - 82 GP 237 Blocked Shots
4 Mike Komisarek MTL D - 66 GP 207 Blocked Shots
5 Roman Hamrlik MTL D - 81 GP 195 Blocked Shots
First of all, it wasn't just Komisarek blocking shots for the Habs. Yeah, he played 15 less games and would have had even more blocks if he had played those games but i'd say Hamrlik is prob overlooked in this category.
Second, Matt, what i'm wondering is this, your comment about him either "spending most of the year on the IR or chasing guys who blew past him"? Well, let's look at his GP stats. Over the past 10 years, he's played 70+ games in 9 of the 10 years. 7 of those 9, he played 75+ games? I guess you must be implying that he simply "chases guys who blew by him", no? Cuz he certainly doesn't seem to spend a lot of time on the IR?
Here's a good site if you wanna check some stats, especially the defensive stuff.... http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20092ALLDADAll&sort=blockedShots&viewName=rtssPlayerStats
|
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 11:15:11
Ok lets strighten this out. I already stated earlier that I dont think that Markov is really soft, i was just usuing the logic that, some seem to think that Kaberle is soft, therefore so is Markov. To me (imo) they are similar players. Puck moving defenceman, who arent overly physical. I dont mean he is going to cry like a baby everytime he has to go into the corners. Hes just not intimidating.
Spacek is nearing the end of his career. He may be productive this year, but moving forward (like you stated beans) Beauchimen will be a better signing when the contracts are over. Remember, Gainey is aiming for next year, burke is going long term. That is why its pretty pointless to compare the two in the first place...
Comparing stats of each dman on the team doesnt tell the whole story. Stats are only a part of it. Going into the corners in the maple leafs zone this year is going to be like going over the top in WW1. You are going to get f***ed up.
Montreal's d doesnt seem like they are going to scare or hurt anyone.. Paul Mara looks pretty scary with that playoff beard and he would be the main guy to dish out punishment. Gill doesnt play tough AT ALL. Georges? nope. Markov is an all star and he doesnt really need to try and kill guys to be effective. Spacek is reliable but again, nobody is crossing their fingers hoping they'll still be alive while they cross the habs blueline. Hamrlik is lucky he can still skate. The guy spends most of the year on the IR or chasing guys who just blew past him now.
They are 2 different types of bluelines. The habs are more offence oriented, with 2 solid stay at home D (Mara and Gill the pylon) while the leafs are looking to have 5 guys who will try to end your season, and Kaberle.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 11:02:19
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
Markov doesnt scare anybody and doesnt hit. Maybe soft isnt the right word, but sure as hell isnt hard as f***
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
I think the prob here is "soft" sounds negative, as though his being soft hurts his game. He may not be a Phaneuf or Stevens type D-man but the fact he isn't one of the bigger body checkers is not necessarily a negative to his game. I think that's where the argument is coming from. |
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 10:56:36
Markov doesnt scare anybody and doesnt hit. Maybe soft isnt the right word, but sure as hell isnt hard as f***
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 10:53:30
Beans....i guess that's why opinions are so great. Personally, i wouldn't want Avery anywhere near to the Canucks roster. Funny though, a few years ago, i'd have wanted him, i just simply tired of his bs much too quickly. The guy is a proven commodity, BUT also a proven disease to teams! He's got some serious issues and if i were running a team, i wouldn't want anything to do with him. In my mind, he's MAYBE a top 6 forward on a weak offensive team, and that's barely.
As for the "use your noggin" comment...i understand what you mean but let's face it, at this point, how a team's gonna do is opinion only. I was more pointing out that Gabby doesn't have the highest ppg for the past 3 years. There are 5-10 guys with higher or very similar numbers all of who have played far more games and bring more value to their teams. I really don't know if i'd want him at that price with the injury history involved. I'll continue to say this, he could be a 100 pt guy, but he could be 20-40 just as quick.....
|
| Beans15 |
Posted - 08/20/2009 : 07:07:28
Been on the road for a few days, so I missed my chance to rebute many posts, but I will try to answer various things here.
1) Someone asked if I would have Avery on the Oilers. Obviously, if I could some how see the future, this would be far easier. However, he's still worth the risk. Some can argue that he can lose a game as fast as he can win a game and they would be right. However, on top of his game, he is not only the best agitator in the league but he IS a legitimate top 6 forward talant on any team in the NHL. People who disagree with that are not seeing his on-ice performance but only his off ice performance. To answer your question, I definately would take Avery onto the Oilers line up. In a heartbeat without any thought what so ever. I can alway drop him if he turns the wrong way. But as I said, the best instigator in the league who can play top 6, that is worth a lot in this game we call hockey.
2) I stand by my "use your noggin" statement. Emphatically. People's arguement towards the Rangers are "it will happen, wait and see" or "they did this or that in the past but it won't continue". Face the facts. The top 4 defense in New York match up with all but the elite top 5 groups of defensemen in the NHL. They have a legitimate 7+ forwards with the ability to score 20+ goals. They have speed, grit, and toughness. They have a world class goalie. That is a recipie for success in any hockey league in the world. Sure, an injury could occur, but that could happen to any team. We will just have to wait and see, but I would not be surprised to see New York with home ice in the playoffs.
3) Markov is soft??? Seriously, that quote itself tells me so much about people's thinking.
4) How many Leaf defensemen have a 40+ point season? Combined how many 40+ point seasons are with the Leafs? How many (+) seasons??? I mean, please. Compare the offensive and defensive production for the 2 groups and it's not even close. Paul Mara, who many consider the #4 or #5 defensemen for Montreal has been more productive player than all the Leafs defensemen save Kaberle.
5) Beachemin over Spacek??? Long term, maybe, Short term, not on your life. And short term is even a tough choice. Spacek is a legitimate 30-40 point scorer. That's Beachemin's highest production and he did that on a Stanley Cup winning team.
As many of you know, I am not the biggest Leaf fan and never will be. As much as Leaf fans drive me nuts some times, you gotta love'em. Their passion and dedication could be the biggest in all of sport. However, try to look at things objectively for a second. Not with what might happen or what you want to happen, but what has actually happened and what is likely to happen.
|
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 08/19/2009 : 07:00:54
quote:
Originally posted by redneck76ca
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
Since i am a leafs fan, I see the habs alot. Markov is soft. Not soft serve ice cream soft, but he is definatley more on the soft side than the hard side. I mean, Grabovski f'd him up last year, C'mon!!
All kidding aside, i think the two teams have deep Defence corps that most teams would love to have.
Would anyone put Toronto or Montreals D in the top 5 in the NHL? Do they both make the top 10?
Who has the BEST D in the NHL?
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
If I remember correctly Grabo ran him in an awkward position. This doesn't make him soft. Soft refers to not hitting, not blocking shots and shying away from confrontation. Markov hits, blocks shots and although he doesn't drop the gloves, he doesn't back down.
You think watching 8 games a season gives you more insight into a team than someone that watches 82?
The grabo thing was more of a joke than anything. There is no doubt that Markov competes, but so does Kaberle yet people consider him "soft". I think that they are similar D-men, hence the "soft" reference.
I dont think that me watching "8" (you mean 6?) habs games a season give me more insight than you, I simply stated I watch the Habs alot. Just so you know, I watch Hab games that aren't against the Leafs as well. I have a couple close friends who are die hard Hab fans and we watch any Hab game that is on. As long as my Leafs aren't playing ;)
Not to mention Markov has been a Hab for years now and I've had plenty of opportunity to watch him play.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/19/2009 : 00:36:13
Beans.... Sorry, but if Avery's one of your top six then you're weak at forward. First of all, this guy has trouble staying in the lineup and secondly, when he does, he has trouble staying on the ice. More simply, lemme ask you this: Would you like to see him with the Oil? Didn't think so....
Also, i was away this weekend and didn't hear about the Prospal signing until after i posted. This imo is a good signing for a team in desperate need of offence! Not sure he'll help out defensively, but the Rangers aren't too bad back there to begin with.
Ales Kotalik? Well, i googled him to get some stats and most of the google results were forums with people debating whether or not he's got a girlfriend? Guess he's popular with the puck bunnies? Supposedly he's linked to some hottie? I'm guessing he'll do alright in NY, but she'll prob do better...
Higgins will be given every chance to prove himself and may just do so? I just feel there's too many forwards there who will need to play with better players to perform to expectations. Yeah, Higgins can get 20, but who centered him in Montreal compared to who's gonna center him in NY? Looks to me like there are too many "potential" top 6 guys and not enough proven ones to play with them. Confusing? Well, lets just say they play Drury with Gabby on his wing. This leaves one lucky stiff to play on the other wing, likely someone with size and/or fists (Avery maybe?) to help protect these two. Not that Gabby's small, but he's not the toughest guy on the ice and Drury IS on the smallish size? Who's the second line gonna be? Higgins and Kotalik with Dubinsky centering them? Don't get me wrong, they could be a hit on Broadway, but at this point, they prob aren't scaring anyone?
Also, gotta agree with Odin (think it was him?) about Torts in TB. He had a pretty decent team, not just a couple superstars. In fact, Richards was considered by many to be the best of the top three?
As for this comment "Sorry to get off topic, but c'mon hockey fans. Use your noggin's a little and look deeper. If I told you before the season started that your team had an all world goalie, a capable top 4 defensive group, 7 potential 20 goal scorers and the player with the highest PPG average over the past 3 season, you would be doing backflips at your chances."...Where do you get YOUR stats? Maybe you're the one who should "use your noggin"? Gaborik, the player with the highest PPG over the past 3 seasons? HUH? Here's what i see:
Gabby 142 GP and 163 PTS (1.148 ppg)
Ovechkin 243 GP and 314 PTS (1.292 ppg)
Malkin 242 GP and 304 PTS (1.256 ppg)
Crosby 209 GP and 295 PTS (1.411 ppg)
That's only the "BIG 3" too. I checked out Iginla and found he had a PPG of 1.201 Surely there's more but i didn't feel like calculating stats all night. I'd be willing to bet Datsyuk, Thornton and maybe even Zetterberg are in the mix. Even the three Sens with horrible stats last season are prob in there too!?!? Regardless, i get your point, but Gaborik's a total coin flip as to how many games he'll play. If he plays 75, i'll be he's in the 90-95 point range. However, that could quickly become 40-45 point range too...... |
| redneck76ca |
Posted - 08/18/2009 : 13:51:23
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
Since i am a leafs fan, I see the habs alot. Markov is soft. Not soft serve ice cream soft, but he is definatley more on the soft side than the hard side. I mean, Grabovski f'd him up last year, C'mon!!
All kidding aside, i think the two teams have deep Defence corps that most teams would love to have.
Would anyone put Toronto or Montreals D in the top 5 in the NHL? Do they both make the top 10?
Who has the BEST D in the NHL?
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
If I remember correctly Grabo ran him in an awkward position. This doesn't make him soft. Soft refers to not hitting, not blocking shots and shying away from confrontation. Markov hits, blocks shots and although he doesn't drop the gloves, he doesn't back down.
You think watching 8 games a season gives you more insight into a team than someone that watches 82? |
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 08/18/2009 : 12:55:08
Since i am a leafs fan, I see the habs alot. Markov is soft. Not soft serve ice cream soft, but he is definatley more on the soft side than the hard side. I mean, Grabovski f'd him up last year, C'mon!!
All kidding aside, i think the two teams have deep Defence corps that most teams would love to have.
Would anyone put Toronto or Montreals D in the top 5 in the NHL? Do they both make the top 10?
Who has the BEST D in the NHL?
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| redneck76ca |
Posted - 08/18/2009 : 12:24:25
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4271
Where the leafs have the advantage is in positions 5,6,and 7. White and Van ryan are diffinately better than Mara and that big pylon Gill. I know come playoffs you usually play the guts out of your top 5 defencemen but regular season most teams dress 7. So in my opinion, overall advantage Toronto.
Most teams don't dress 7 dman for a game. Where you got that I don't know. Rarely does a team dress 7 dmen as it means that they would not have 4 full forward lines. Maybe look into what you are saying before you say it? Just because White plays d and forward doesn't mean he is dressed as a dman when he is in the lineup. If you can show me some teams that regularly dress 7 dmen I will eat my words but I think that most people on this forum would agree that this rarely happens.
Yes, the Leafs depth on d is better but how one can say that Markov is soft hasn't watched him play much in the last 3 years. He is not even close to being soft, although I agree that Kaberle is. Personally, I think that the defensive corps for the Habs and Laffs (typo that my pro-Habs computer refuses to fix)are very even but I would take the offensive upside of Markov, Hamrlik and Spacek over Kaberle and Beauchemin. The Leafs have a nicely balanced defensive defence but are not all that rounded. (Here is your chance to knock Gill and O'Byrne, and this is where I would counter with Komi being only a defensive dman with very little offensive upside). |
| Odin |
Posted - 08/18/2009 : 12:21:12
White and Van ryn are better than Mara? Sorry, just don't see it. Further, you're forgetting about Weber, plus people seem to have forgotten about Georges, who will be on the second pairing with I'm predicting Spacek. I see Hamrlik and Gill as the third. Not a bad third pair I would think. So, they need to find a spot for Weber, and we're not even talking about Subban, Henry, Carle or O'Byrne yet. I like the depth! |
| Guest4271 |
Posted - 08/18/2009 : 12:06:07
Where the leafs have the advantage is in positions 5,6,and 7. White and Van ryan are diffinately better than Mara and that big pylon Gill. I know come playoffs you usually play the guts out of your top 5 defencemen but regular season most teams dress 7. So in my opinion, overall advantage Toronto. |
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 08/18/2009 : 10:47:19
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
i agree beans, you said what ive been tryin to say.... the rangers will make the playoffs and have a better roster than people are giving them credit for.
*note* i still cant fathom how anyone thinks Montreal has a better top 4 than the leafs do now... they have 2 guys that montreal were trying to get ahead of the guys they ended up getting...
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
I will quickly answer this.
Simply put.
Markov is better than Kaberle
Hamrlik is better than Komisarek
Spacek is better than Beauchemin
Schenn is going to be a great, great player but still makes a ton of rookie mistakes. (74 Turnovers last season, 20 more than the next worst Leaf Defensemen and one of the 20 worst in all of the NHL. Also, 2nd to worst Leaf in +/-)
Top 4, straight up, I take Montreal for this season without question. If you are talking long term, the TO group is younger and will get better. However, at least for this season coming, Montreal does have the top 4 defensively over TO.
Kaberle and Markov imo, are a wash. Markov probbaly gets a slight edge in overall ability, but both are soft, puck moving defenceman who excel on the breakout and on the PP.I think both guys contribute equally to their clubs.
Hamrlik is old, slow and injury prone. He had a bad year last season and I cannot see him improving much, if at all... Id take Komisarek every day of the week. He may not have the prescence on the PP like Hamrlik does, but he will block a ton more shots and throw way more hits, while still providing a solid prescence in his own zone.
The only reason Montreal signed Spacek is becasue they couldnt get Beauchimin signed. (Maybe im way wrong on that, but im pretty sure that Beauchimen was their 1st choice...) Francois was hurt most of last year but the way he has played in the playoffs the last couple of seasons has been unreal. Spacek is a good player no doubt, and his offensive upside is clearly better than beauchimens, but when it comes to your own zone, id take beauchimen. I guess i give this one to spacek... he is a better player than beauchimen right now.
Schenn has divine powers the likes of which no montreal d can ever hope to attain. ^_^
I guess it is closer than I think, but I still would take Kaberle, Komisarek, Beauchimen and Schenn over Markov, Hamrlik, Spacek and whoever....
blahhhhhh whatever, drop the puck already
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| Odin |
Posted - 08/18/2009 : 09:33:29
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2622
Sorry for the repost, hadn't logged in.
Sorry Beans,
Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I'm not using my noggin. Thats a little over the top.
Again, their 'd' is completely overrated and overpaid. Gaborik goes down, which, like it or lump it is very likely, and they are screwed. Avery is an overrated dolt who can cost you a game just as likely as win it. Many of those players who you claim are legit 20 goal scorers can just as likely get you 10. Vying for a top 5 spot? Just don't see it. They MAY scrape in, but I see them just as likely as missing them altogether. And if Lundquist goes down?
Tortorella won the cup with Lecavalier and St. Louis and not much else? Are you kidding me? Richards, Khabibulan, Boyle, Kubina, Sydor, Stillman, Taylor, Andreychuk, not to mention a few others. That roster was pretty stacked. And they had some great roleplayers.
Sorry Beans,
Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I'm not using my noggin. Thats a little over the top.
Again, their 'd' is completely overrated and overpaid. Gaborik goes down, which, like it or lump it is very likely, and they are screwed. Avery is an overrated dolt who can cost you a game just as likely as win it. Many of those players who you claim are legit 20 goal scorers can just as likely get you 10. Vying for a top 5 spot? Just don't see it. They MAY scrape in, but I see them just as likely as missing them altogether. And if Lundquist goes down?
Tortorella won the cup with Lecavalier and St. Louis and not much else? Are you kidding me? Richards, Khabibulan, Boyle, Kubina, Sydor, Stillman, Taylor, Andreychuk, not to mention a few others. That roster was pretty stacked. And they had some great roleplayers. |
| Guest2622 |
Posted - 08/18/2009 : 09:31:57
Sorry Beans,
Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I'm not using my noggin. Thats a little over the top.
Again, their 'd' is completely overrated and overpaid. Gaborik goes down, which, like it or lump it is very likely, and they are screwed. Avery is an overrated dolt who can cost you a game just as likely as win it. Many of those players who you claim are legit 20 goal scorers can just as likely get you 10. Vying for a top 5 spot? Just don't see it. They MAY scrape in, but I see them just as likely as missing them altogether. And if Lundquist goes down?
Tortorella won the cup with Lecavalier and St. Louis and not much else? Are you kidding me? Richards, Khabibulan, Boyle, Kubina, Sydor, Stillman, Taylor, Andreychuk, not to mention a few others. That roster was pretty stacked. And they had some great roleplayers. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 08/18/2009 : 08:04:28
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
i agree beans, you said what ive been tryin to say.... the rangers will make the playoffs and have a better roster than people are giving them credit for.
*note* i still cant fathom how anyone thinks Montreal has a better top 4 than the leafs do now... they have 2 guys that montreal were trying to get ahead of the guys they ended up getting...
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
I will quickly answer this.
Simply put.
Markov is better than Kaberle
Hamrlik is better than Komisarek
Spacek is better than Beauchemin
Schenn is going to be a great, great player but still makes a ton of rookie mistakes. (74 Turnovers last season, 20 more than the next worst Leaf Defensemen and one of the 20 worst in all of the NHL. Also, 2nd to worst Leaf in +/-)
Top 4, straight up, I take Montreal for this season without question. If you are talking long term, the TO group is younger and will get better. However, at least for this season coming, Montreal does have the top 4 defensively over TO. |
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 08/18/2009 : 07:46:43
i agree beans, you said what ive been tryin to say.... the rangers will make the playoffs and have a better roster than people are giving them credit for.
*note* i still cant fathom how anyone thinks Montreal has a better top 4 than the leafs do now... they have 2 guys that montreal were trying to get ahead of the guys they ended up getting...
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 08/18/2009 : 07:39:57
Alright, here we go again. No credit, no props, no nothing to Glen Sather. People are missing a few things. Firstly, no defense?? Girardi, Staal, Redden, and Roszival are a very stable and capable top 4 defensive core. That's group is as good as the Leafs top 4 and nearly as good as the Canadians Top 4. They will more than likely be going with youth for the other 2 spots as they are up against the cap, and that might be a small knick(pardon the pun) in the armour.
Now, let's move into the forwards that are "basically Gaborik and Drury and not much else." Sure, there are not huge names there. But lets be realistic. Avery, take away all the off ice crap, is still the games best instigator. He's uber fast and he has the skills to play top 6 forward. People forget about Prospal, who has 6 of his last 8 seasons over 50 points and is a 20 goal guy. Kotalik is a 20 goal guy. Higgins has the potential to improve and we all watched him have 3 of his first 4 seasons with over 20 goals. Callahan is also coming off a 20 goal season. Include in Drury and Gaborik and there are 7 very limitimate potential 20+ goal scorers in the Ranger line up. Voros and Brashear bring size and toughness. Arnason is a few seasons removed from throw in 50 pts a season but he still has some chops and can definately play 3rd line centre. Enver Lisin is one of the fastest players in the NHL today. And this does not include any prospects that might have a great camp and get onto the big squad.
Plus, you have all world goalie Henrik Lundqvist in the net.
Seriously, just because they are not household names takes nothing away from the squad in New York. They will be better than last year, better than most expect, and will compete in the top 5 teams in the East. They will have sound defense and will score by committee with Gaborik being the head of that committee. Anyone remember who their coach is??? Remember, he won the Stanley Cup pretty recently with a team that had "Lecavalier and St. Louis and not much else."
Sorry to get off topic, but c'mon hockey fans. Use your noggin's a little and look deeper. If I told you before the season started that your team had an all world goalie, a capable top 4 defensive group, 7 potential 20 goal scorers and the player with the highest PPG average over the past 3 season, you would be doing backflips at your chances.
Why are the Rangers so weak??
|
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/17/2009 : 23:13:07
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6035
well, guess I'm just blind because I see them missing the playoffs. The Rangers that is. They just don't have much firepower or much defense.
I kinda see where you're coming from. The more i look at their roster, the less impressed i am. It's Lundquist, Drury and Gaborik (who'd better stay healthy for them to have a shot?) and not much else? |
| Guest6035 |
Posted - 08/17/2009 : 16:00:14
well, guess I'm just blind because I see them missing the playoffs. The Rangers that is. They just don't have much firepower or much defense. |
| redneck76ca |
Posted - 08/14/2009 : 12:50:36
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9235
quote:
Originally posted by Odin
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
sounds like your dreaming to me odin. Maybe Boston doesnt run away with the east again, but they are still an excellent hockey club. If they lose Kessel than that takes some shine off...but we shall see.
The NYR will be ok because they have Henrik Lundqvist. He is that good.
Tampa, with Rick Tocchet behind the bench to start the season, have some pretty impressive players. With st louis, lecavalier, Stamkos, malone, ohlund and hedman running show, they could be a decent club. Although I agree with you that they are a mess upstairs...
I would put Pit, Wash, Philly, NJ, and Bos ahead of Montreal without thinking twice. That leaves the habs and leafs to fight with buf, ott, fla, NYR and car for the 8th spot... mehh... things always shakedown a little odd by the end of the year. So who knows...
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
And it sounds to me like you're doing the exact same thing. Lundquist can't score goals, and he can't make every save. So they lose a bunch 1-0. They STILL lose. Lundquist is great, but he isn't perfect, and that is what the Rangers will need to even have a chance. They have NO firepower and precious little defence. You could be right about Boston, they DO have talent, the problem is: its Boston. Their consistency over the last half century is decidedly lacking. And Montreal OWNED Philly last year, even with all the issues they were having. Period!
I think you are putting just a little too much faith in Tocchet. That team will be moved (or once again sold) before they make any significant noise. We do agree on three teams though.
Im guessing you watched the playoffs last year, so you saw what Lundquist could do. He almost stole the series away from Washington, when they shouldve been swept. If Lunquist doesnt get hurt, the Rangers finish better than the Leafs and probably the Habs.
There is no doubt that the Rangers will finish higher in the standing than the Habs, or atleast they should if Gabby is healthy. That being said, who knows? |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 08/14/2009 : 01:46:59
Guest 9235, i think you missed some sarcasm? No? Ah, whatever...
Montreal definitely had Philly's number last year, but over the years (at least in the past 10)i'd say it was the other way around? I haven't checked the stats but i swear once Leclair was traded, Philly always seemed to beat the Habs? But, who cares really? Who's better this year? Well, like the Habs Leafs debate, i'm a neutral figure and i'd put my betting dollars on the Flyers. Another team who i'm not fond of, but this is my betting dollars we're talking about! If the Flyers and Habs face off, i'm rooting for the Habs! BUT, my money's on the Flyers!
I learned at a young age.... Bet with your wallet, not with your heart!
|
| Guest9235 |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 13:43:20
quote:
Originally posted by Odin
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
sounds like your dreaming to me odin. Maybe Boston doesnt run away with the east again, but they are still an excellent hockey club. If they lose Kessel than that takes some shine off...but we shall see.
The NYR will be ok because they have Henrik Lundqvist. He is that good.
Tampa, with Rick Tocchet behind the bench to start the season, have some pretty impressive players. With st louis, lecavalier, Stamkos, malone, ohlund and hedman running show, they could be a decent club. Although I agree with you that they are a mess upstairs...
I would put Pit, Wash, Philly, NJ, and Bos ahead of Montreal without thinking twice. That leaves the habs and leafs to fight with buf, ott, fla, NYR and car for the 8th spot... mehh... things always shakedown a little odd by the end of the year. So who knows...
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
And it sounds to me like you're doing the exact same thing. Lundquist can't score goals, and he can't make every save. So they lose a bunch 1-0. They STILL lose. Lundquist is great, but he isn't perfect, and that is what the Rangers will need to even have a chance. They have NO firepower and precious little defence. You could be right about Boston, they DO have talent, the problem is: its Boston. Their consistency over the last half century is decidedly lacking. And Montreal OWNED Philly last year, even with all the issues they were having. Period!
I think you are putting just a little too much faith in Tocchet. That team will be moved (or once again sold) before they make any significant noise. We do agree on three teams though.
Im guessing you watched the playoffs last year, so you saw what Lundquist could do. He almost stole the series away from Washington, when they shouldve been swept. If Lunquist doesnt get hurt, the Rangers finish better than the Leafs and probably the Habs. |
| Guest2332 |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 11:59:03
Also, their 3rd liner center is Daniel Brière(not to bad). The only reason phily lost in the playoff was the penalty. I watch every pitt-phily games and in every of them phily has the upper hand but loose because of bad penalty(thats how they always do anyway).
Philly got a better team than the habs, no doubt about that. The only interogation is the goalie, but is't it the same with Price? |
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 10:43:54
hey man, it wasnt a dig at you. I watched a few of the Habs vs Philly games last year, and youre right, they did own them. But that was last year. 2 years ago Philly destroyed Montreal in the playoffs. That was then this is now.
2 words. Chris Pronger.
Besides that, they also have Mike Richards and Jeff Carter (both of whom should be even better this year), Simon Gagne, Claude Giroux (who will have a breakout season in a big way), Timmonen, Cobourn, plus a host of tough dudes. The flyers are stacked. I wouldnt be surprised if they win the east, I think they are that good. The only thing going against them is the big question mark in goal. Emery did take a talented Sens team to the finals, this philly team may be perfect for him.
Again, this is just my opinion, I can see why if you dont agree with me.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| Odin |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 09:07:17
You had me laughing until you had to get that last dig in there. If Philly is WAAY better than the Habs, why did the Habs own them?
|
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 10:27:24
I dont think Kaberle is worth a top 10 pick.
I know the draft is a crapshoot but ive learned this lesson the hard way as a leafs fan. Trading your 1st round picks for established veterans only leads to years of drug and alchohol abuse and thousands of dollars spent on therapy. Not to mention countless hours surfing the net looking for justification for being a leafs fan lol.
I think Philly is WAY better than Montreal. IMO.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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