| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| willus3 |
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 22:15:28
This is one of the funniest things i have read in quite some time.
http://www.nomoreorr.com/
The logic is priceless.
----------Admin Edit----------------------------
A web site devoted to the removal of Bobby Orr from the Hall of Fame
----------End Admin Edit-----------------------
"Go chase headlights!" |
| 24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 19:51:47
After going through the site, I'd have to say it's a parody, not serious. I think they are just being foolish to get attention. It's not based on any facts, just a hint of reality taken to the extreme.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
| Guest4631 |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 17:29:50
Orr was a hack. Those guys at that site are pretty accurate.
NoMoreOrr www.nomoreorr.com might just be my new favourite site |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 10:17:20
About what I meant by "smarter":
Smarter in their approach to the game (they don't smoke and drink all off-season) for starters. That's a minor point.
But most importantly (which often gets overlooked) is that players play under systems now. Coaching has gone from 30% technical and 70% motivational to about 90% technical and 10% motivational.
Some of the best coaches in the NHL are not great motivators (Lemaire comes to mind), but brilliant technicians who devise systems that their teams can play with. The "motivators" are still there (Torterella, for example), but they compliment their style - still with offensive and defensive systems.
Example - every team has a "1st unit" and a "2nd unit" power play, both designed to work the puck to a certain area for a certain shot to be deflected by player X, for example. The opposing team, however, pre-scouts that team in order to prepare for it. And because of pre-scouting, the team on the PK will make adjustments and teach the players the other team's PP tendencies, etc. Before video, it was just "go for it" and hope for the best.
Roger Neilson innovated the practice in the 80's, but it really did not take over the NHL until the 90's. It's why the game became boring - not because players were worse (like a lot of old-timers will say), but because they were better - more knowledgable, and certainly better able to defend! Lots of people blame "the trap", but the trap has been around since the beginning of hockey.
I heard someone on TSN say the other day (can't remember who it was) that the reason scoring in the NHL is down AGAIN this year is because coaching has again caught up with the rules. I agree. You watch a PK this year compared to one from, say, 2003. It's unreal how the defence has to use positioning rather than brute force to protect the middle. And they do it better this year than they did last year! Just an example.
If you prefer "more educated about systems" instead of "smarter" then I'd ammend my earlier statement.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
| GOWINGS19 |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 10:10:10
yeah but come on willus that can be said in almost all sports...football basketball hockey ...everyone used to be smaller...how would they have faired against todays monsters...probably not well but back when he played he was an amazing on ice presence...i say we just keep them in their own era and let them continue to rule it
"I don’t need to score the goal. I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals." -Vladmir Konstantinov |
| willus3 |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 10:06:47
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9911
Willus3,
How many points do you think Bobby Orr (instead of Paul Coffey) would have scored playing with Gretzky, if he were transported in a time machine to the 1979 Oilers? Keeping in mind that Orr played 9 seasons, and that Gretzky averaged over 180 points a season for his first 9 seasons, winning 8 Heart trophies by the time he was 26 years old. So this question can be broken into two parts:
1) How many points would have Orr scored vs. Coffey
2) How many points would Gretzky have scored playing with Orr vs. Coffey
You should start a new thread on this, I'll comment there. Another hypothetical. Everyone will love it.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| Guest9911 |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 10:04:58
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9911
Willus3,
How many points do you think Bobby Orr (instead of Paul Coffey) would have scored playing with Gretzky, if he were transported in a time machine to the 1979 Oilers? Keeping in mind that Orr played 9 seasons, and that Gretzky averaged over 180 points a season for his first 9 seasons, winning 8 Heart trophies by the time he was 26 years old. So this question can be broken into two parts:
1) How many points would have Orr scored vs. Coffey
2) How many points would Gretzky have scored playing with Orr vs. Coffey
EDIT: Can an administrator please change "Heart" to "Hart"? Thanks! |
| Guest9911 |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 09:58:54
Willus3,
How many points do you think Bobby Orr (instead of Paul Coffey) would have scored playing with Gretzky, if he were transported in a time machine to the 1979 Oilers? Keeping in mind that Orr played 9 seasons, and that Gretzky averaged over 180 points a season for his first 9 seasons, winning 8 Heart trophies by the time he was 26 years old. So this question can be broken into two parts:
1) How many points would have Orr scored vs. Coffey
2) How many points would Gretzky have scored playing with Orr vs. Coffey |
| Guest2884 |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 09:22:19
i think bobby orr was the best ever some can ? it but how can you ? he was the best defencemen ever and would be in any era to date. |
| manninm |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 06:45:03
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
I love Orr, but it's somewhat valid.
Players today are bigger, smarter, stronger, and in better shape.
Can you clarify? What is somewhat valid?
Players are smarter today? You might want to qualify this statement.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
maybe smarter means the game is more complex?? I dunno....
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden |
| willus3 |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 06:28:04
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
I love Orr, but it's somewhat valid.
Players today are bigger, smarter, stronger, and in better shape.
Can you clarify? What is somewhat valid?
Players are smarter today? You might want to qualify this statement.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 22:23:09
I love Orr, but it's somewhat valid.
You could make an argument against the goalies of yesteryear vs today as well. It's not necessarily their fault, but it's reality. Better equipment, lighter, they are actually coached now...
Players today are bigger, smarter, stronger, and in better shape.
Cripes, in Espo's book he talked about how he'd get a summer job, drink beer and BBQ all the time.
I don't think he'd get away with that today.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
| willus3 |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 11:39:31
quote:
Originally posted by moosewinooski44
lmao amazing what ppeople do with their time i cant beleaive i had to sign up to post somethin on their website lol lets try to bash these people as much as possible VIVA LA ORR!!!!
My Quest For The Cup Username is moose44
I have to assume it's their idea of a joke. If it isn't, i have no idea how they have control over their bodily functions. It must be a challenge with an IQ of 8.
It's as if they tried to come up with the most absurd thing to say in the hockey realm to generate a reaction. Well, i guess it worked.
"If you're travelling in a vehicle at the speed of light and you turn your lights on, do they do anything?" - Steven Wright |
| willus3 |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 06:25:40
Andy I'm not sure I'd say the league was at it's weakest after the first expansion. There were definitely some weak teams but it has continued to be that way.In fact even in the original six there were always one or two terrible teams. The league expanded again in the late seventies when Gretzky arrived. I guess he had the same "advantage". Again in the early 90's. Lemieux and Jagr must have capitalized there.
This brings up an interesting topic though. I think I'll start another thread about this league parity idea.
"If you're travelling in a vehicle at the speed of light and you turn your lights on, do they do anything?" - Steven Wright |
| willus3 |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 06:06:25
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4462
What's so funny? Orr was a mediocre talent, he was just slightly ahead of his time with some of the things he did. Relative to Defensemen of he era, he was a genius. Compare him to any offensive defensemen a decade later and he's a joke.
You should sign up so I can destroy your argument , avatar to avatar.
"If you're travelling in a vehicle at the speed of light and you turn your lights on, do they do anything?" - Steven Wright |
| Guest4462 |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 22:55:48
What's so funny? Orr was a mediocre talent, he was just slightly ahead of his time with some of the things he did. Relative to Defensemen of he era, he was a genius. Compare him to any offensive defensemen a decade later and he's a joke. |
| andyhack |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 21:04:23
Well, let me put it to you this way, between your stats and the stats on that funny site, I think yours are much, much closer to what would have happened had Orr played in the modern era.
To be fair though, I do think that the crazy guys who created that crazy site actually do raise an interesting question about whether the NHL was at its weakest point in history in the period immediately after expansion. I don't think the point, even if true, should ultimately have much effect on one's assessment of Orr - but I think it's worth discussing (the crazy guys chose to just go the comedy entertainment route with it though).
But if you were to only put together clips of Orr against the Rangers, Habs and Black Hawks, three very strong contenders of that era, I think you would quickly see where the point loses a lot of its weight. It was one of the interesting aspects of the era that you actually had 4 very strong teams in a still pretty small league, teams which could easily have been legitimate Cup champions. Look at the '72 Rangers who lost to the Bruins in the finals, where Orr played amazing by all accounts. Very solid team with Park and the GAG line leading the way. Sure, there were weak teams at the time but I don't know if Orr feasted on them any more than superstars in later eras feasted on the weak teams of their time.
In any case, it's really hard for me to imagine Orr having much problem in any era - his skating, vision, playmaking, defensive abilities, etc. were just too good, let alone his heart. |
| willus3 |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 18:53:24
So what do you think about those adjusted stats Andy?
Here is how Coffey's numbers compare. I'm sure some are wondering.
Average of their best 5 seasons.
Player Goals
Bobby Orr 36
Paul Coffey 31
Player Assists
Bobby Orr 85
Paul Coffey 70
Player Points
Bobby Orr 121
Paul Coffey 101
So the guy who came closest offensively still isn't close.
"Go chase headlights!" |
| willus3 |
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 21:09:13
Alright Andy, here's how it turns out. These are the ADJUSTED stats of the following players. As you can see, no one even comes close even after adjustment. Also notice the only one to score more points than Orr was Lidstrom and it took him 1100 games to Orr's 700.
Orr
Year GP G A Pts
1967 71 15 30 44
1968 50 12 20 32
1969 72 21 41 62
1970 82 35 89 124
1971 82 37 99 136
1972 80 37 78 116
1973 66 27 64 91
1974 78 31 84 115
1975 82 41 75 116
1976 10 4 11 15
1977 21 4 17 20
1979 6 2 2 3
TOTAL 700 265 610 875
Lidstrom
Year GP G A Pts
1992 82 10 43 54
1993 82 6 27 33
1994 82 10 42 51
1995 73 18 27 46
1996 81 17 48 65
1997 79 17 44 60
1998 80 21 48 69
1999 81 17 49 66
2000 81 23 57 81
2001 82 17 60 77
2002 78 11 57 68
2003 82 22 48 70
2004 81 12 32 44
2006 80 17 61 78
2007 80 14 49 63
TOTAL 1204 234 692 925
Pronger
Year GP G A Pts
1994 79 5 23 27
1995 73 9 15 25
1996 78 7 17 24
1997 79 12 25 37
1998 81 11 31 42
1999 67 16 37 53
2000 79 16 52 68
2001 51 9 42 51
2002 78 9 45 54
2003 5 1 3 4
2004 80 17 46 63
2006 80 13 42 55
2007 66 14 46 60
TOTAL 897 140 424 564
Blake
Year GP G A Pts
1990 4 0 0 0
1991 77 11 30 42
1992 58 7 11 18
1993 74 14 34 48
1994 82 19 43 63
1995 41 7 12 19
1996 6 1 2 3
1997 62 9 24 33
1998 81 28 31 59
1999 62 15 26 40
2000 77 21 42 63
2001 67 22 43 65
2002 75 20 45 65
2003 79 21 31 51
2004 74 16 38 54
2006 81 15 35 50
2007 72 16 20 35
TOTAL 1073 241 467 708
Niedermayer
Year GP G A Pts
1992 4 0 1 1
1993 78 9 23 33
1994 79 10 32 42
1995 82 7 26 33
1996 79 8 24 32
1997 81 5 31 37
1998 81 17 49 66
1999 72 13 39 53
2000 71 8 33 42
2001 57 7 31 38
2002 76 13 25 38
2003 81 13 31 44
2004 81 17 46 63
2006 82 14 48 62
2007 79 17 54 70
TOTAL 1083 160 493 654
Anyone surprised???
"Go chase headlights!" |
| Saku Steen |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 11:34:03
Wow, I wonder who this guy is...
I've figured it out, the guys gotta play like girls! |
| willus3 |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 08:31:17
quote:
Originally posted by andyhack
Willus, as you are someone who saw Orr a lot, what does your "EXTREMELY sophisticated computer simulation" say his stats would have been in the modern era? For real, what do you think?
All of his stats ended up in the negative. 
"Go chase headlights!" |
| andyhack |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 07:03:47
Willus, as you are someone who saw Orr a lot, what does your "EXTREMELY sophisticated computer simulation" say his stats would have been in the modern era? For real, what do you think? |
| leafsfan_101 |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 06:48:28
LOL that better be a joke. Whoever made that site seriously needs to get their head checked.
When life gives you lemons throw them at the Ottawa Senators and their fans and hope it gets them in the eyes ;) |
| andyhack |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 06:47:33
Pretty creative site I must say. I actually give these guys credit for thinking about how Orr would have done in the modern era. A very legitimate question!  .
Maybe they are not going far enough though. My "UNsophisticated computer simulation" shows Orr with a much less successful 2002-2003 season, scoring only 3 empty net goals, 2 into his own net. Also, I think the petition should be extended to eliminating whatever pension all of the floater guys from back then are currently receiving, and actually force these floater guys, and Orr, to gradually return all of their previously received income to the league. |
| Patchy |
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 22:17:16
Haha, ya Bobby Orr's definatly a "mediocre talent"
~~Go Leafs Go~~ |
