| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| andyhack |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 16:22:12
Putting aside defensive abilities all together, for pure offense, who are your top 5 offensive defensmen since 1970, and how would you rank them? |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| andyhack |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 06:41:14
Willus, one reason I suppose I would consider Coffey for this particular question (dealing only with offense) is that such a large percentage of Coffey's brain cells, I believe, were devoted to offensive hockey (I believe if we do the brain cell calculation, Coffey probably wins over Orr).
That and absolutely incredible skating ability. Orr's accelleration from slow to fast is unmatched, and his ability to control the puck on his own was awesome, but Coffey was so fast at top speed and a terrific playmaker (like Orr).
Is it debatable? In my opinion, yes, for two more reasons.
1) As much as we ask about how Orr would have done in the '80s, it is fair to ask how Coffey would have done in the '70s - I can see his speed being a major advantage given the relative slowness of some of the guys back then.
2) This thread is more interesting if it is debatable!
I still pick Orr though. Some of this discussion and the numbers provided by you and Pucknuts have strengthened that belief by the way. In the end, I say that even while being a better overall defenseman, Orr was still better than Paul Coffey offensively, and that is no small feat!
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| Greg Smith |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 14:03:07
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Smith
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2192
what about zubov
Including Zubov is like including Gonchar. Lidtrom could be added though.
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games.
Zubov wouldn't be a bad pick at all actually. Neither would Gonchar.
In fact Zubov's offensive numbers compare quite favourably to Lidstrom's. Especially when you take into consideration the two teams they each played on. Lidstrom had the advantage there. Detroit was a far better team than Dallas. Also Dallas was known to play very defensive minded hockey.
Neither of their stats appear that impressive until you consider what era they played through.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore
Top 5 though? none of those guys would even make my top 10. I have nothing against Zubov, Gonchar is a different story. I take back my Lidstrom comment, there is no way he's top 5 material.
My top 10:
Orr
Coffey
Bourque
Potvin
Macinnis
Leetch
Reinhart
Housley
Park
Wilson
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 13:04:34
Willus I agree with you.
This is a perfect example of the era's being more than adjusted scoring. Correct my if I am wrong, but you either grew up watching hockey or really learned to love the game of hockey while Orr played. That being said, it is easy to see you love for Orr. Mine, it was the 80's Oilers. Gretzky and Co. Seeing how many peope here are younger than I am, and realistically, there hasn't been anyone come close to Coffey in the past 15 years, the immediate choice is the most recent in people's minds. Thus, Coffey is the "choice of the young generation."
Even growing up watching Coffey, I can't even try to say that he is better than Orr. But I am rare.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
| willus3 |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 11:36:39
I'm not sure why some are picking Coffey ahead of Orr???
Take Orr's five best offensive seasons and compare them to Coffey's five best and I think you will see that as good as Coffey was offensively he still doesn't approach Orr's numbers.
Even without adjustments for era, which in this comparison really should be taken into account, Orr comes out ahead.
Orr's 5 year average - 126.6 points
Coffey's 5 year average - 120.2 points.
If you do the adjustments factoring in scoring averages for those years it looks like this;
Orr - 139 pts.
Coffey - 108 pts.
I don't even see this as debatable.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
| Guest8372 |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 10:42:28
quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts
Top 50 Defensemen ranked by Points / Game that played past 1970, and played more than 15 games, as of Nov 7, 2007...
Rnk Name Season GP G A Pts P/G
1 Bobby Orr 66_79 657 270 645 915 1.39
2 Paul Coffey 80_01 1409 396 1135 1531 1.09
3 Denis Potvin 73_88 1060 310 742 1052 0.99
4 Ray Bourque 79_01 1612 410 1169 1579 0.98
5 Al MacInnis 81_04 1416 340 934 1274 0.90
6 Paul Reinhart 79_90 648 133 427 560 0.86
7 Brian Leetch 87_06 1205 247 781 1028 0.85
8 Phil Housley 82_03 1495 338 894 1232 0.82
9 Doug Wilson 77_93 1024 237 590 827 0.81
10 Brad Park 68_85 1113 213 683 896 0.81
11 Mark Howe 79_95 929 197 545 742 0.80
12 Jeff Brown 85_98 747 154 430 584 0.78
13 R Ruotsalainen 81_90 446 107 237 344 0.77
14 Reed Larson 76_90 904 222 463 685 0.76
15 Larry Murphy 80_01 1615 287 929 1216 0.75
16 N Lidstrom 91_08 1190 203 677 880 0.74
17 Gary Suter 85_02 1145 203 642 845 0.74
18 Craig Hartsburg 79_89 570 98 315 413 0.72
19 Sergei Zubov 92_08 1026 151 592 743 0.72
20 Craig Norwich 79_81 104 17 58 75 0.72
21 Guy Lapointe 68_84 884 171 451 622 0.70
22 Ian Turnbull 73_83 628 123 317 440 0.70
23 Larry Robinson 72_92 1384 208 750 958 0.69
24 Borje Salming 73_90 1148 150 637 787 0.69
25 Steve Duchesne 86_02 1113 227 525 752 0.68
26 Sergei Gonchar 94_08 840 175 387 562 0.67
Unbelievable how productive Lidstrom, Zubov and Gonchar are considering they played exclusively in the dead puck era. |
| PuckNuts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 07:50:28
Top 50 Defensemen ranked by Points / Game that played past 1970, and played more than 15 games, as of Nov 7, 2007...
Rnk Name Season GP G A Pts P/G
1 Bobby Orr 66_79 657 270 645 915 1.39
2 Paul Coffey 80_01 1409 396 1135 1531 1.09
3 Denis Potvin 73_88 1060 310 742 1052 0.99
4 Ray Bourque 79_01 1612 410 1169 1579 0.98
5 Al MacInnis 81_04 1416 340 934 1274 0.90
6 Paul Reinhart 79_90 648 133 427 560 0.86
7 Brian Leetch 87_06 1205 247 781 1028 0.85
8 Phil Housley 82_03 1495 338 894 1232 0.82
9 Doug Wilson 77_93 1024 237 590 827 0.81
10 Brad Park 68_85 1113 213 683 896 0.81
11 Mark Howe 79_95 929 197 545 742 0.80
12 Jeff Brown 85_98 747 154 430 584 0.78
13 R Ruotsalainen 81_90 446 107 237 344 0.77
14 Reed Larson 76_90 904 222 463 685 0.76
15 Larry Murphy 80_01 1615 287 929 1216 0.75
16 N Lidstrom 91_08 1190 203 677 880 0.74
17 Gary Suter 85_02 1145 203 642 845 0.74
18 Craig Hartsburg 79_89 570 98 315 413 0.72
19 Sergei Zubov 92_08 1026 151 592 743 0.72
20 Craig Norwich 79_81 104 17 58 75 0.72
21 Guy Lapointe 68_84 884 171 451 622 0.70
22 Ian Turnbull 73_83 628 123 317 440 0.70
23 Larry Robinson 72_92 1384 208 750 958 0.69
24 Borje Salming 73_90 1148 150 637 787 0.69
25 Steve Duchesne 86_02 1113 227 525 752 0.68
26 Sergei Gonchar 94_08 840 175 387 562 0.67
27 P Rautakallio 79_82 235 33 121 154 0.66
28 Sandis Ozolinsh 92_08 838 164 384 548 0.65
29 Tapio Levo 81_83 107 16 53 69 0.64
30 Tom Kurvers 84_95 659 93 328 421 0.64
31 Risto Siltanen 79_87 562 90 265 355 0.63
32 Rob Blake 89_08 1071 215 461 676 0.63
33 Tomas Jonsson 81_89 552 85 259 344 0.62
34 Ron Greschner 74_90 982 179 431 610 0.62
35 Randy Carlyle 76_93 1055 148 499 647 0.61
36 J Van Boxmeer 73_84 588 84 274 358 0.61
37 Dave Babych 80_99 1195 142 581 723 0.61
38 Zarley Zalapski 87_00 637 99 285 384 0.60
39 Chris Chelios 83_08 1561 183 756 939 0.60
40 Brad Maxwell 77_87 612 98 270 368 0.60
41 Behn Wilson 78_88 601 98 261 359 0.60
42 Chris Pronger 93_08 884 120 405 525 0.59
43 Stefan Persson 77_86 622 52 317 369 0.59
44 M Schneider 87_08 1135 201 465 666 0.59
45 Kevin Hatcher 84_01 1157 227 450 677 0.59
46 Brian Rafalski 99_08 555 46 277 323 0.58
47 Al Iafrate 84_98 799 152 311 463 0.58
48 Bob Dailey 73_82 561 94 231 325 0.58
49 Ilya Byakin 93_95 57 8 25 33 0.58
50 S Niedermayer 91_07 1053 140 468 608 0.58
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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| andyhack |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 05:53:42
Yeah, Ray's numbers are impressive, no question. The best player from each decade poll where I put that All-Star link is also very telling about the consistency of the guy. Take a look at that as it's quite something! You always gotta remember too that, though he wasn't playing with stiffs, he wasn't exactly playing with Gretzky, Messier, Anderson, Kurri... either.
Still though, I approach these questions with a "peak value" focus, like Willus. Tough call but if I have Potvin and Bourque standing in front of me in their primes, after having like a really long couple of coffees with Bourque and talkng Bruins stories , I may very well choose Potvin for my team, whether I am thinking about only offense, or whether I am thinking about overall abilities. Can't really go wrong with either though!
Willus, I don't particularly like Potvin either, and you're right, he did get caught pinching sometimes. So did Bourque though. Actually, I mentioned this before but one thing I absolutely loved about Bourque was the way he reacted when he made mistakes, which he did make. He was like a madman trying to rectify the situation, as he VERY often did. I sometimes almost hoped he would make a mistake to see it as it was great to watch. When Milbury was coaching them he described it as "God giveth, and God taketh away". "God" is an overstatement, but when you think of what he meant to those Bruins teams (think of the relative talent on those Bruin teams after the first two or three guys) you can kind of understand how Bourque was thought of that way on that team.
I am officially rambling to start off November 7th, 2007! |
| irvine |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 19:12:19
Ray Bourque. Not only my favorite player of all time, his point totals say it all.
Irvine |
| andyhack |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 18:14:40
My five:
1. Orr
2. Coffey
Edit - to insert a bit of a GAP here
3. Potvin
4. Bourque
5. Leetch
Tough Picks
- Orr over Coffey
My memory of Coffey is clearer so it was tempting to take Coffey but considering that Orr got 102 assists in 70/71, it makes me ask myself just how many he would have gotten on the '80s Oiler teams. My guess is significantly more. Also, Orr put up 46 goals in '74/75 when his knees were already in pretty bad shape. That makes me wonder just how many 50 goal seasons he probably would have had with a little more luck injury-wise, even on the by then so-so talented Bruins teams (let alone how many goals he would have put up in Coffey's place on the '80s Oilers). Tough call though, cause offensively Paul Coffey was indeed a bit of a freak of nature.
- Potvin over Bourque
Again, my memory is better for Bourque, and I think he has the edge in a couple of areas, but one thing I do remember very clearly about Potvin is how well he quarterbacked the power play. Bourque did this very well too, but there was something very very "imposing" about Potvin on the power play - he seemed almost like a General or something - which leads me to give the very slight edge to Potvin.
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| willus3 |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 17:21:15
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Smith
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2192
what about zubov
Including Zubov is like including Gonchar. Lidtrom could be added though.
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games.
Zubov wouldn't be a bad pick at all actually. Neither would Gonchar.
In fact Zubov's offensive numbers compare quite favourably to Lidstrom's. Especially when you take into consideration the two teams they each played on. Lidstrom had the advantage there. Detroit was a far better team than Dallas. Also Dallas was known to play very defensive minded hockey.
Neither of their stats appear that impressive until you consider what era they played through.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
| Greg Smith |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 16:00:33
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2192
what about zubov
Including Zubov is like including Gonchar. Lidtrom could be added though.
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games. |
| Guest2192 |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 19:36:38
what about zubov |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 19:22:39
1) Paul Coffey
2) Bobby Orr
3) Raymond Bourque
4) Al Macinnis
5) Brian Leetch
I think Leetch was a better offensive player than Housley, but in a different era that did not show up on the stat sheet. |
| OILINONTARIO |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 16:46:52
1) Paul Coffey
2) Bobby Orr
3) Al MacInnis
4) Borje Salming
5) Phil Housley
The Oil WILL make the playoffs. |
| willus3 |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 16:46:23
1. Orr
2. Coffey
3. Bourque
4. Housley
5. Potvin
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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