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Bozy
Top Prospect
Canada
33 Posts |
 Posted - 07/24/2008 : 11:55:07
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Thornton doesn't really have anyone to pass to and he gets 90 assists in a year. Look at Datsyuk, he has Zetterberg to pass to and he still doesnt match up to Joe. Also Datyuk is on a better team which clearly means its Joe. 
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admin
Forum Admin
Canada
2338 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2008 : 12:44:53
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Hi Bozy, thanks for the contribution to the forum!
Just a heads up that I had to clean up your post a fair bit so it made some sense (it was a little cryptic ) I also gave it a more suitable subject title because "Joe" wasn't very clear. I then moved it to the correct post category since it was in user polls and there was no poll attached to it. Be sure to make clean posts in the future. As a suggestion you might want to post a question to other readers to make sure they have some direction. Just trying to help and keep our forums clean.
Thanks!
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 02:09:05
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| When I read this yesterday I thought that bozy meant to post this in response to another topic...perhaps a "best player today" type thread? |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 03:53:16
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Hmm, interesting.
Joe Thornton is cleary up there. The ''undisputed best?'' I don't know about that. A couple other players in the NHL make their bread and butter off the assist, some of them with equal to less talent than Thornton has around him (a lot with more, though.)
One player you'd be remiss to overlook is Marc Savard. I don't know that Milan Lucic and Glenn Murray are any better than Jonathan Cheechoo and Milan Michalek. Many would say they're of lesser caliber. For the record, Marc Savard has tallied 206 assists post-lockout.
The other players that are up there all have some supporting cast members (Pavel Datsyuk, Jason Spezza, Martin St. Louis, Nicklas Lidstrom...)
And on a final note, just to throw something out there, I don't think we can dismiss the case for Sidney Crosby. True, he doesn't only set up (33 percent of his points are goals) but he is damn good at it, and among the assist leaders every year. I think he has the best vision in the game today, and I don't know that his linemates have been anything to rave about.
Proudly Celebrating Over 50 Blogs and Counting |
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Bozy
Top Prospect
Canada
33 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 21:22:11
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| Sorry I am brand new to this , thanks for the help |
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Leafsfan_94
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1070 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 21:58:26
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meh its ok it happens to everyone atleast one when they start out.
quote:
Originally posted by Bozy
Sorry I am brand new to this , thanks for the help
Leafsfan_94
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Guest9692
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Posted - 07/26/2008 : 12:31:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
One player you'd be remiss to overlook is Marc Savard. I don't know that Milan Lucic and Glenn Murray are any better than Jonathan Cheechoo and Milan Michalek. Many would say they're of lesser caliber. For the record, Marc Savard has tallied 206 assists post-lockout.
Proudly Celebrating Over 50 Blogs and Counting
Don't forget that Thornton almost made Murray a 100 point/50 goal scorer a couple of years back. Sure Murray's probably has lost some speed but you don't just lose hands. I think Savard and Jumbo Joe like different types of passing lanes.
Joe likes to draw the D (or in most cases Ds) out and feed the relatively stationary big bodies in the front. Savard is used to moving targets through or around the D. Kovalchuk and Savard connected very well for that reason. That's why Sturm last year was almost a 30 goal getter where Murray, well was not.
Don't get me wrong both are wonderful passers. I wouldn't put Spezza there yet. He tries to be so flashy or cute with his passes. Sid is pretty good too but because Ds are more worried about him scoring too that Sid gets lanes to pass to and he is so damn fast. Datsuyk is very good too. There was a couple passes that I can remember that was unbelievable, skating high speed, lays up a nice juicy saucer pass across the ice over the defenceman's stick (about knee high) lands nicely with no bounce for a one timer. That was impressive.
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2008 : 14:51:18
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Assists can always be confusing. To get an assist, you have to pass the puck. So that means if you can pass the puck well you can get a lot of assists. Now you say Joe Thornton is the assist king, that may be true. There's other players who are also good playmakers such as Datsyuk and Savard. But does being the assist king mean you are the best passer? No. The best passers in the NHL are the players on the blue line. Chris Pronger, Nick Lidstrom, Thomas Kaberle, Sergei Zubov and Andrei Markov in my mind are the best passers. They make tape to tape passes with the forward breaking down the ice and with a forward on the opposing team skating at him. Joe Thornton is so big that you can't knock the puck off so all the players follow him and then he just passes it to the open guy. Marc Savard and Pavel Datsyuk are the only forwards in my mind who are just as good passers as some of those defensemen.
So in conclusion, Joe Thornton may get the assists but the best passer in the league is not him in my mind.
When the going gets tough....the tough get going! |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2008 : 15:02:05
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quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
Joe Thornton is so big that you can't knock the puck off so all the players follow him and then he just passes it to the open guy.
When the going gets tough....the tough get going!
Funny you should mention that. At camp we play a game called ''water basketball,'' wicked fun game. Basically its played in waist-high water. You can take as many steps as you want, but must complete a minumum of two passes before taking a shot at the nets on the pool deck. And the catch it that it's mayhem, because tackling and jumping on a person's back is 100 percent legal, so it's generally not in your best interest to hog the ball all the way to the hoop. The thing is I'm strong as an ox in the water and even though at times I'll have up to four guys at me from all sides, I will come up with the ball every time (it helps that I'm taller by a few inches too.) At first we ran the same play every time: draw the defense towards me, chuck a ''hail mary'' pass to the far end and let the open guys take shots. Eventually the other team got smart and left me unguarded. It's tough because I can't shoot for beans (I should mention it's very hard to score. The net is approximately ten to twelve feet higher than you, and you're in a pool. Most games end with a total of one or two baskets in a forty-five minute period.) The new plan worked and the other team started winning.
ANYWAYS, the point of that whole story (other than to feed my ego, ahem  ) was to ask a simple question: why don't defenders do the same to guys that are known as playmakers? Why not just let everyone man-up, and keep one defence on Thornton. Worst comes to worst, risk letting him fire the puck. At that point it's the goalies job to stop the rubber, that's what he gets paid for. Can anyone tell me why this plan would not work? It worked in my Bantam league...
Proudly Celebrating Over 50 Blogs and Counting |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2008 : 15:45:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
Joe Thornton is so big that you can't knock the puck off so all the players follow him and then he just passes it to the open guy.
When the going gets tough....the tough get going!
Funny you should mention that. At camp we play a game called ''water basketball,'' wicked fun game. Basically its played in waist-high water. You can take as many steps as you want, but must complete a minumum of two passes before taking a shot at the nets on the pool deck. And the catch it that it's mayhem, because tackling and jumping on a person's back is 100 percent legal, so it's generally not in your best interest to hog the ball all the way to the hoop. The thing is I'm strong as an ox in the water and even though at times I'll have up to four guys at me from all sides, I will come up with the ball every time (it helps that I'm taller by a few inches too.) At first we ran the same play every time: draw the defense towards me, chuck a ''hail mary'' pass to the far end and let the open guys take shots. Eventually the other team got smart and left me unguarded. It's tough because I can't shoot for beans (I should mention it's very hard to score. The net is approximately ten to twelve feet higher than you, and you're in a pool. Most games end with a total of one or two baskets in a forty-five minute period.) The new plan worked and the other team started winning.
ANYWAYS, the point of that whole story (other than to feed my ego, ahem ) was to ask a simple question: why don't defenders do the same to guys that are known as playmakers? Why not just let everyone man-up, and keep one defence on Thornton. Worst comes to worst, risk letting him fire the puck. At that point it's the goalies job to stop the rubber, that's what he gets paid for. Can anyone tell me why this plan would not work? It worked in my Bantam league...
Proudly Celebrating Over 50 Blogs and Counting
the answer to your question i have Mr. Alex... as you pointed out you cant shoot for beans,,, Big Joe on the other hand still has a dandy of a wrist shot a very underated one at that.... not to mention i'm pretty sure Joe can dangle with the best of em,, the point is you leave joe alone instead of scoring 20 goals and 90 assists he'll score 40 goals and 70 assists,, (you'll notice the assists dont go down in equal ratio well that because you leave joe alone he will have time to find the guy you forgot to cover())
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 03:17:29
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I think we learned from the '80's that having only one shadow against the other teams' superstar didn't do it. Did you ever see Paul Woods try to cover Gretz?? Wayne got 8 points that night. It's the TEAM D that works, not just smothering the star.
I could only imagine Jumbo Joe with one guy trying to shadow him...and no-one else playing any team D, just waiting to break out and storm the offensive zone... |
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ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 08:50:11
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I'm liking how my man Joe is getting some respect!  The man can pull off some sick passes and his size is a HUGE advantage to that. It is near impossible to knock him off the puck! And he will almost ALWAYS find the open man when you double him up. I would love to see what the man can do with a true goal scorer such as Hossa or Kovalchuk or even Hejduk (altho he is getting old).
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 12:06:33
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I agree with Paintrain's observation - the guy who gets the most isn't necessarily the best, especially undisputed best.
I would put Lidstrom at #1 for best passer, maybe Crosby at #2, then Savard at #3 and Thornton at #4. That is just my perception/opinion of their skill level, which is difficult to assess, considering that (as others have pointed out) an assist depends on someone actually scoring . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2008 : 13:32:07
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Crosby at number 2? Puhlease! and I would take Thornton over Savard any day of the week! 
but as you said, that is your opinion and your opinion cannot be wrong. I will just respectfully disagree!
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I
I would put Lidstrom at #1 for best passer, maybe Crosby at #2, then Savard at #3 and Thornton at #4. That is just my perception/opinion of their skill level, which is difficult to assess, considering that (as others have pointed out) an assist depends on someone actually scoring . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
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Joe Thornton - undisputed assist king? 
