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Guest6575
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 Posted - 05/09/2010 : 09:05:19
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| Hey guys great to see this topic on here. Well it a very sad day because the nucks will be done like dinner. I'm a huge van fan but wr just don't have a winning team. Hawks have better D and better O. Our suppose advantage was in net but that seems to be false. It angers me that we never will get first roun pick, thus never have a real superstar. The sedins are good but not great, I kmow about all the points they got but I woul rather just make the playoffs, and have grit ( Montreal) for the second season. Vancouver fans are so hardcore and so hockey smart it really hurts to see what us happening , I wish I was in Phoenix, where I can wave my flag and be happy no matter what the score or what the hockey is like. As for jumpin the wagon, I think I have the eight not to cheer when my team is sucking balls. There I feel eter thanks |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2010 : 11:50:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6575
Hey guys great to see this topic on here. Well it a very sad day because the nucks will be done like dinner. I'm a huge van fan but wr just don't have a winning team. Hawks have better D and better O. Our suppose advantage was in net but that seems to be false. It angers me that we never will get first roun pick, thus never have a real superstar. The sedins are good but not great, I kmow about all the points they got but I woul rather just make the playoffs, and have grit ( Montreal) for the second season. Vancouver fans are so hardcore and so hockey smart it really hurts to see what us happening , I wish I was in Phoenix, where I can wave my flag and be happy no matter what the score or what the hockey is like. As for jumpin the wagon, I think I have the eight not to cheer when my team is sucking balls. There I feel eter thanks
You're "a huge Van fan"? Cool, nice to meet you, i'm Batman.  Next thing you're gonna tell us you're really good at typing too!  If you truly would prefer to be in Phoenix, good on ya! See ya later pal, it's fans like you who contribute to us real Vancouver fans getting a bad rap! Hope you didn't hurt yourself when you jumped from the bandwagon, enjoy the sun in Phoenix, the people there will love the breeze you create while you wave your flag.  |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2010 : 11:59:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
In this case, I do blame the coach 100% for the reasons I stated above. The players have their faults as well, but if the coach was directing traffic properly and establishing the expectation of no penalties, Vancouver would be winnint 3-1 right now rather than losing.
Honestly, I do not recall the O'Brien incident. I do recall him beating the crap out of anyone near him, but I don't recall the crosscheck while the guy was down.
I really think this series is over tonight. I can see the Chicago Fans being complete crazy but it being a very close game. Maybe a goal in the final couple of minutes will win it.
Beans, here's what i don't get. Do you think secretly that AV told his players to go out and take stupid penalties? Or even that they should retaliate or resort to playing on the edge and risk putting their PK to work? If so, then i'd def be on side with blaming him. However, if you believe he's told them not to play as such, but they've gone out and done it anyway, what do you think he should be doing differently? As i said before, if O'Brien played as he did the other night in the reg season, he'd be in the press box, but unfortunately due to injuries, AV can't do that to him! Heck, he can't even bench him for a period as he's just far too thin on D. Does anyone really think Alberts would be playing if he had more options on the back end? Even Lukowich would have been in there by now but he too is injured! I'm not blaming injuries as the reason we're losing this series, but it's def had a bearing on who the coach can discipline as far as i'm concerned!!!
The O'Brien incident was what led to the PP that got Chi their 2nd goal (or was it the 3rd?) and while it wasn't totally vicious, any of the 3 that preceded the one finally called, could have been called!
As for tonight, i can only imagine how crazy that rink is gonna be! I hope to be home in time to catch the US anthem! Canucks are in tough and it's a long shot for them to win tonight, let alone the series! However, unlike the guest above who claims to be a Canucks fan, rather than dreaming of sunny Phoenix, i'll be cheering on my 'Nucks like every other real Canucks fan, in hopes they can extend this series! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2010 : 12:18:22
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Alex, you are missing my point. The deal with AV is that by this time, the players should respect him and believe in him enough to have them follow his direction. That is the problem.
I call poppycock on the can't bench players comment. It would be no different(and in many ways better) to have some of these guys(Alberts, O'Brien, Burrows) on the bench.
There is a bench on the penalty box and the player's bench, a player is only hurting you when he is sitting on one of the benches.
Is it not better to be playing 5-5 when you PK sucks and they other team is completely owning you on the PP??? |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2010 : 14:01:34
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quote:
nuxfan, did you listen to Luongo's interview after the game? He seemed pretty pissed and while he didn't name names, he did say the coaches have been preaching "turn the other cheek" and "don't retaliate" and "don't take stupid penalties" and that some guys just didn't seem to listen! From everything i've heard from interviews with several Canucks, they were all aware of what they had to avoid, sadly, once the puck was dropped, some seemed to have a proverbial brain fart!
Things def don't look good for Canuck faithful at this point but as you say, you have to have faith! Here's hoping you get a chance to enjoy game 6 live! I will say this much, i'd been combing Craigslist the past week for game 3 and 4 tix and almost paid $500 (for 2) to go to one or the other. Kinda glad i didn't now!
Alex, I did see that interview, and Lu was obviously frustrated. He didn't need to mention names - all those watching knows he means O'Brien and Burrows. You have to agitate, but only to the fine line, and SOB doesn't know when to stop. The Sedin's were a surprise, and just have to get back to their game. I'm also glad I wasn't at game 3/4, that would have been depressing.
Beans, I have to agree with Alex here - AV is handcuffed in regards to benching SOB or Alberts, we don't have a deep enough blue line to bench if things go bad. AV tried to bench SOB during game 4, but when you're playing with 6 dmen, and Salo takes a penalty to give you only 4, you're handcuffed - AV has no choice but to play SOB in that case.
I think we're missing Mitchell more than I thought we would in the playoffs - he's a steady PK dman that eats up 25-30 minutes a game in the playoffs. His absence is forcing other dmen into larger roles than they're accustomed to, and its not working.
As for the discipline, I put some blame on AV and some on the players. AV has no doubt told them to cool it out there, but they're not. The players are professionals, and should realize the place that they are right now, and what not to do. However, I have to point at SOB in particular, he is playing like a loose cannon, and its rubbing off on others. He continues to put the team in a precarious position, and others are forced to backup the escalating situations - it can't happen.
Regardless of how this series ends, I think SOB is playing his last days as a Canuck - AV and Luongo have likely had enough of trying to settle the wild child down. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2010 : 20:57:04
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well, game 5 just ended - that was the effort we needed, by everyone that needed to make it. GM place is gonna be rocking on Tuesday!
Haven't heard any more about Salo...I hope he's going to be OK. Took a wicked shot to the minerals. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2010 : 21:35:45
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Is that where he got hit?? I watched the game and didn't see that. Looked to me that it was above the belt and maybe in an area where there wasn't much padding. In and around the ribs maybe??
I was shocked at how poorly the Hawks came out. To me, it's a really big deal. When a team has their opponents on the ropes and doesn't finish the job, it tells me they are missing a killer instinct needed to win the Cup.
I am actually feeling a little uncomfortable about the Hawks overall now. Vancouver has played great in Chicago and if the Canucks find a way to win on Wednesday, I would say the Blackhawks would be the underdogs in Game 7.
Where the eff was Byfuglien tonight?? Talk about going completely away from the game plan that worked!! That being said, it's amazing what the Canucks can do when they take fewer penalties than the opposition. Only 5 penalties tonight rather than 14 over the 2 previous games.
If they stay out of the box on Wednesday, Chicago will really have to work for a win.
Luongo looked sharp and composed.
What a difference between games. |
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Nucks07
Top Prospect
Canada
45 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2010 : 22:02:05
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I heard that salo ruptured a testicle so I dont think he'll be playing the next game, that guy has some of the worst luck for injuries I think that makes like 38 different injuries... Great game by the nucks tonight if they play like that all the time I think they have a shot of winning the next 2... Luongo stepped up big time and pretty much put the team on his back which a team captain should do.
I guess guest6575 is back on the wagon (i hate bandwagon fans) Its not over till I see the handshakes and my playoff beard is gone. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2010 : 22:48:42
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Whoa.........one at a time here! First off Nucks07, Coyote flag waving guest6575 is not welcome back! He's enjoying life, sitting in 100 degree heat, wearing his spf 1000 long sleeve t-shirt at the pool, drinking his bud light with 80 year old retiree's! Leave him be, his seat has since been removed from said bandwagon!
Beans, don't wanna beat a dead horse, but maybe you're right? I'm missing your point? I don't think so really, but maybe? I still don't see what choice AV had when his bench was so thin? I'm sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree. At this point in the season, when a team has played as well as it did all year, i don't see the coach losing his key guys, nor do i see him benching a key guy for slipping up when he has NO WHERE NEAR the replacement necessary! I will agree with your "he's better on your bench than the penalty box bench scenario (real cute  ) but a coach has to make a choice. Play your best and hope they obey your directions, or sit them and play more or less shorthanded by extending your bench to those who at their best just simply aren't nearly as good as the guy you're sitting. How many teams do you really think would bench their top scorer from the regular season in the playoffs for ANY reason?
As for Salo, i'm obviously not surprised he's hurt, but a ruptured testicle? That's not something i'd wish on anyone, but i guess Salo had to find something new? Beans, i too saw it and we rewound it a few times? I swear it hit his wrist just above the glove? Not only that, it was a puck that slowed with a deflection off a back of another player (Ryan Johnson?) and didn't look all that much threatening? Who knows? It's playoffs, upper body, lower body, who really cares? Bottom line is, if he can't go, who the heck does at this point? Baumgartner? Nycholat? Me? Nuxfan? Yikes, it's gettin' thin back there... |
Edited by - Alex116 on 05/09/2010 22:52:19 |
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Guest4642
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Posted - 05/10/2010 : 00:56:15
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| So most of you saw the high stick that O'Brien took from Byfuglien. Does anyone know the actual rule on high sticking? Do you not have to have complete control of your stick even if it is a follow through on a shot? I couldn't believe there wasn't a penalty on the play. But then again, I was tought that you have to be responsible for your stick at all times. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2010 : 05:28:32
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Guest 4642 - to answer your Q, yes, it is a penalty - yet another penalty that wasn't called (reminds me of the more brutal non-call when a Caps player got his teeth knocked out, blood streaming out his mouth, and the ignorant american commentator said "oh, it was just accidental, that's why it wasn't a penalty").
The rulebook clearly states that this is "careless use of the stick", and same as other high sticking penalties now, if there's blood, it's a 4 min penalty.
But this is one of those penalties that as a ref, you might as well flip a coin if they decide to call it or not.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest7886
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Posted - 05/10/2010 : 06:29:39
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I seem to remember there being a definite exception for when it's in the follow-through of a shot. Berard didn't draw a penalty when he almost lost his eye in the same way, for example...
I looked it up:
60.1 High-sticking - A “high stick” is one which is carried above the height of the opponent’s shoulders. Players and goalkeepers must be in control and responsible for their stick. However, a player or goalkeeper is permitted accidental contact on an opponent if the act is committed as a normal windup or follow through of a shooting motion. A wild swing at a bouncing puck would not be considered a normal windup or follow through and any contact to an opponent above the height of the shoulders shall be penalized accordingly.
I didn't see the play, but based on the descriptions I've seen it seems like the refs actually made the right call, for once. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2010 : 08:29:34
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quote:
As for Salo, i'm obviously not surprised he's hurt, but a ruptured testicle? That's not something i'd wish on anyone, but i guess Salo had to find something new? Beans, i too saw it and we rewound it a few times? I swear it hit his wrist just above the glove? Not only that, it was a puck that slowed with a deflection off a back of another player (Ryan Johnson?) and didn't look all that much threatening? Who knows? It's playoffs, upper body, lower body, who really cares? Bottom line is, if he can't go, who the heck does at this point? Baumgartner? Nycholat? Me? Nuxfan? Yikes, it's gettin' thin back there..
Sadly, neither am I, but that puts us down 2 very important dmen for the rest of this series (likely). Without Mitchell and Salo, our blueline is definitely thin. I heard on the news last night that Burrows has played defence in rare situations before, and may move back to d for game 6. He may as well, he's not doing much on the forward lines.
I did call Gillis and offer my services...no calls yet
Guest - you are correct about the ruling, as horrible as the stick on SOB was, it was on the followthrough from a shot and technically is not a penalty. I'm not sure if the ref's saw that and made the decision on the ice, or if they missed the stick completely and were just relieved to see that it happened during a shot, but I don't think it was a penalty. You could argue that it was a wild swing on the tail end of a followthrough, but its hard.
Beans - for sure this is turning into an odd series, the momentum swings are wild. Chicago looked like game1 Chicago - who knows who will turn up for game 6?
However, I'm not sure how Bolland's 2-hander on Daniel's ankle was missed...that was pretty brutal. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2010 : 12:26:41
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nuxfan..... i'm pretty sure i heard it reported that the ref explained to SOB why he didn't call it so i do believe they saw it and if that's the rule, you're right, they got it correct.
The chop to Sedin's ankle was pretty blatant but it could have been worse. When the ref turned a blind eye to that, Henrik could have been called for a trip about 3 seconds later and that went uncalled. Of course, if the slash had been called, the whistle would have gone before Henrik's trip and we'd have been on the pp i suppose? Either way, can you imagine if they let the slash slide, then called the trip and they ended up being on the PP? Yikes, there'd have been some serious conspiracy theorists ready to lynch the ref! |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2010 : 10:51:38
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So who wins tonight? Can the Hawks pull the amazing feat of three road victories in Vancouver to put down the Canucks?
I personally can't see the Canucks losing at home with another poor effort, so I think at worst it's a close game or they lose in o/t. But, I think the Canucks will pull it out this evening and send this series to an exciting game 7.
I say the Sedins dominate tonight, and Luongo plays at least as good as last game. 5-3 with an empty netter.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2010 : 12:07:38
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All they need to do is what they did in game 5 - disciplined play and strong goaltending. If they can do both of those things, we're going to game 7.
It will be an exciting game again tonight though, and whatever happens, this has been one of the most entertaining playoff series that I've ever seen. |
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Guest6816
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Posted - 05/11/2010 : 15:07:32
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Game 5 a reapeat of game 1 with 1 less goal woo hoo
GO NUCKS GO!! |
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Guest6816
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Posted - 05/11/2010 : 15:09:38
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What are these refs tryin to pull lettin buffln push luongo around luongo should have blockered him in the neck
GO NUCKS GO!!!!!! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2010 : 20:55:50
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Has there ever been a more productive Time Out in recent playoff memory?
Wow, to go from a chance to tie to going golfing in a matter of 40 seconds!!
Na Na Na Na, Na Na Na Na, Hey-Hey-Hey
You get the gist.
Never laughed to hard in my life. My beautiful wife has been great during the playoffs, letting me watch virtually every game I want while she sits and reads. Right after the 5th goal, without looking up from her book, what does she do??
Breaks into the chant, "Louuuuuu!!"
Priceless |
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HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2010 : 21:16:13
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WOOOOO!!!!!!
Bring on the Sharks Baby!
My personal highlight was Kane's breakaway goal. What a beauty!
Stupid penalties killed Vancouver in game 3 & 4, but more than that I gotta put a lot of blame on Luongo's shoulders for losing this series.
He was a champ in game 5. Too bad it's a best of seven series. Getting out-scored 17-7 for the series has to have people questioning the captain maybe just a little.
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2010 : 22:21:40
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What can i say, the better team won. 
Personally, i think Luongo gets far too much blame. The 'Nucks could have been down 3-0 in the first period tonight! Yeah, he sucked in game 4 in a big way, but game 2 he gave his team many big saves to the point that they should have won that game! In the end, the D wasn't nearly good enough to contain the impressive depth at forward that he Hawks possess. Even with Mitchell, i figured our D might be in tough but without him PLUS the injuries to those who did play, the Hawks were far too much. Tonight, with Salo playing hurt to the point where at times i wondered why he was out there, plus the other guys having to play more minutes than they're used to, it just wasn't gonna happen. Throw in the fact that Toews had a series that Crosby fans would be impressed with and Byfuglien stepped up to a whole new level and it really was clear who was the better team.
The x factor going in was Niemi and a i'd have bet a lot of money that he couldn't play well enough to win 4 off us. Good think i didn't find a taker! All three in Vancouver too? Yikes....
Good luck to the Hawks and to their fans, enjoy what should be a good series with the Sharks!
I'm now a Habs fan for as long as they're around (i know, that might be a short stint?)..... |
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HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 07:31:05
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If the Habs knock off Pittsburgh I hope Boston wins. That would be a killer ECF!
I guess I can give Luongo a little more credit. To paraphrase Alex, the Canucks D-line looked an awful lot like swiss cheese once the injuries really started to take thier toll.
I still feel that Luongo as Captain doesn't work for this team. Give it to a skater so that Roberto can focus on being a goalie instead of being weighed down by the pressures of team leadership.
He needs to be a one-man show to have playoff success, he shouldn't be accountable for what the rest of the team is doing.
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 08:01:51
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinOilCountry
I still feel that Luongo as Captain doesn't work for this team. Give it to a skater so that Roberto can focus on being a goalie instead of being weighed down by the pressures of team leadership.
I've never like that decision from day 1. I think part of it (the decision) was to stroke his ego as part of the negotiation game when trying to sign him long tern. Now that that's well into the past, it's time to give the C to a skater. |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 08:19:05
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Let me guess, its a conspicary and its all gary bettmans fault? Or was it brian burkes tampering? Did the refs cost you the series? or do you have a new excuse?
Bring on the Hawks they said! Well, you guys got them.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 08:28:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
Let me guess, its a conspicary and its all gary bettmans fault? Or was it brian burkes tampering? Did the refs cost you the series? or do you have a new excuse?
Bring on the Hawks they said! Well, you guys got them.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Matt, I don't know who that's directed nor why you'd even throw it out there at this point but perhaps i shouldn't be surprised? Have you even read this thread? Are you simply trying to start something here with disappointed 'Nucks fans? Seriously, what sort of response are you expecting? One like, "yeah, i guess we should have wished for the Leafs instead of the Hawks?" or "yeah, well at least we didn't miss the playoffs and give away our pick"?
I really expected better from you Matt...... |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 09:00:50
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The Top 8 reasons why the Canucks lost the series....again (no doubt I'm pointing out the obvious)
1) Penalties - They took stupid penalties (for you bleeding hearts, yes they took a couple phantom calls but not enough to cost them the series) And then their penalty kill was BRUTAL! Worst I've seen in maybe a lifetime.
2) Goaltending - Luongo wasn't bad but he was barely average which doesn't cut it for the playoffs (lose the C, it's distracting) Niemi on the other hand was great!
3) Defense - The Canucks D were descimated before the series started, and were made to look foolish by the speedy and shifty Blackhawk forwards.The Blackhawk D were stellar at blocking shots and clearing the net - defense first fellas.
4) Byfuglien - This guy did his job perfectly; he scored goals and when he wasn't doing that he stood in front of the net and distracted everyone, the big man does it all - first star of the series!
5) Vigneault didn't have control of his team in the first 4 games (for those of you who don't get it, read Sun Tzu's "The Art of War")
6) Burrows and Kesler were virtually ineffective all series (this is their depth and their heart, without them leading by example the Canucks die)
7) The Hawks did an incredible job of shutting down Daniel and Henrik Sedin all series long. They broke up the cycle, kept them to the outside and didn't allow them to carry it into the zone for a large part of it. So effective that for the last - and biggest - game of the series you didn't even hear their names.
8) Blackhawks were a good team but they weren't great, shows you how bad the Canucks played. Ok it's not a reason, more of a general observation. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 09:11:53
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You Luongo haters were all right, and I was wrong - he is not a big game goalie, and I can surely put a large part (not all though) of the blame on his wide shoulders.
He is the captain, after all.
The defence and goaltending were a total bust for Vancouver, and at least the D has an excuse - they were killed by injuries. Salo couldn't skate last night, probably in a ton of pain from his . . . ugh, can't even think about it, makes me squeamish. Ehrhoff looked like he played hurt after the first period as well.
Many other injuries forced guys like Alberts in the game.
I hate the Canucks! I blame them for the fact that I am now out of contention in my playoff hockey pools . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest4780
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Posted - 05/12/2010 : 09:12:50
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Sadly as a Canucks fan, i agree with all eight  |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 09:22:01
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And to add to that - I totally agree Leigh, the Blackhawks were not that great. For long periods of time, they had terrible defence, and the forwards were not particularly strong all the time on the boards or with defensive coverage (except for Byfuglien - definitely the star of the series).
Niemi play well, but not great. Defence was very so-so, with Seabrook playing very well near the end - but Keith was a bit of a disappointment.
LA was better IMHO.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 10:05:29
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Looks like I'm late to the funeral... a disappointing night for sure, and a disappointing end to a very entertaining series. The first period was close, but that game was over as soon as Edler left the ice hurt. Down Mitchell, Edler, and Sami with just one ball, that is not enough d against a team like the hawks. On no team in the NHL are Beiksa and SOB your 1-2 defense, and last night is why. 5 goals, all of them on breakaways or odd-man rushes, created by inexperience on defense. Its easy to blame Luongo for letting in 5 goals, but honestly, with the sorts of defensive gaffes in front of him and general weakness of the dmen, I didn't give him much chance.
Still, the series is longer than one game. I put some blame on Luongo, but not that much - the team as a whole played inconsistent hockey throughout. Game 1 and 5 were very strong outings team-wide, game 3/4/6 were complete mental failures by everyone - thats pretty jekyl and hyde. Luongo, as good as he is, is not god - he needs some help in front of him and didn't get enough of it. The Hawks are a strong offensive team, if you give them chances they will beat you.
Leigh, I agree with most of your assessments - I think there will be some changes in Van for the coming season.
- I hope they take the C away from Luongo, it has proven to be a failed experiment. He's seemed distracted all year long, and he just needs to get back to being a goaltender. The Canucks have plenty of leaders, pick another one (Kesler is the front runner in my mind, unless they sign Mitchell back, in which case it is him).
- I think AV might be gone - Leigh, you're right about discipline, he didn't seem to have control when he needed it most in games 3/4. We'll see what happens there.
- I hope we'll see some changes on d next year - I don't think SOB will be back, and we should consider trading one of Bieksa or Salo (in the last years of their contracts) - they are good dmen but made of glass. Erhoff is a keeper and they'll sign him longterm. Mitchell will be back if he's healthy. I would like the Canucks to make a run at Volchenkov, which would give a very steady and tough top-4.
Of note - it appears that Kesler and Burrows have both been playing with injuries. Burrows I'm not sure about, but Kesler sounds like he's had a bum shoulder since the playoffs started and will go under the knife in the offseason. Explains a lot about their play.
In the end, the Canucks were beat by a better and healthier team. Looking forward to next year.
I also agree that the Hawks were not that great at times. I think SJ will beat them in the conference finals. |
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Guest0935
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Posted - 05/12/2010 : 14:31:47
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1st goal: Questionable pinch by O'Brien on Sopel and Wellwood letting Brouwer beat him to the net
2nd goal: Bieksa nonchalantly accepting (or not accepting) a pass in the neutral zone which leads to a Chicago 3 on 1
3rd goal: Demitra as the last man back on a PP tries to pass through Bolland. No dice. Shorthanded goal.
4th goal: Bieksa simply gives Kane a clear lane to the net
The Blackhawks didn't beat the Canucks. The Canucks simply beat themselves. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 00:59:15
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I agree with most of what Leigh said but i really think special teams decided this series, as they do in most playoff series. Vancouver at 5 on 5 was the better team for most of this series but their PK let them down in a huge way. It could have cost them the first round series vs LA and it pretty much DID cost them this one. Top off the poor PK with 2 or 3 shorthanded goals against and their special teams were beyond bad!
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 08:20:18
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Couple of Things:
1) I hope people are not going to hang their hopes on Luongo improving without the "C" because it's not going to happen. He is an amazing regular season player but he is average in big game situations. Some goalies step up for big games, other don't. He's part of the latter.
2) Leigh, nailed it. Although my top 3 reasons would be penalties, Vignault's inability to control his team, and the injuries to the defense. The Canucks could have battled through their other issues, but those 3 are pretty much impossible to overcome.
3) I think the comment that Vancouver beat themselves doesn't give enough credit to the Blackhawks. I think the more accurate statement would be the Canucks allowed Chicago to beat them.
Ultimately, I don't think that Vancouver could ice a better team. Unfortunately, I also don't think this team will win without support defensively and I also don't think they can win with Luongo. Bottom line, average teams need a brilliant goaltender. Brilliant teams need nothing more than an average goaltender. Look at Detroit for how long and never has that team won with an elite keeper.
I personally think that the $7 million a season on Luongo would be better served in getting an elite, top 5 in the league defensemen and have an average to slightly above average goalie. Goalies lose games but they rarely win them. You need solid skaters to win hockey and, unfortunately, all of Vancouvers are forwards.
No defenseman = No Cup |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 08:45:39
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Beans, i agree with you somewhat regarding the goaltending but at 5.5 for a guy like Luongo, i'm happy. Personally, i don't think he "can't" win the big one. He proved it at the Olympics and while some wanna claim "he was on the best team in the world", fine, but he played against some of the best as well. It was not a walk in the park.
The defense obviously has to improve and that to me is the biggest issue. THAT is the part that bugs me the most because it's exactly what they said last year after we lost. The d needed work!
Having a mediocre goalie and a stud or two on d works for some, but c'mon, look at what we've had here over the years! Vancouver has become known as the "goalie graveyard" for a reason! We had guys like Richard Brodeur in '82 and Kirk Maclean in '94 go on magical runs but they were playing far above their regular season level. Did they do this every year? Not necessarily. Will Halak have a mediocre season next year then catch fire in the playoffs again? Maybe, maybe not? He's not guaranteed to be a "playoff performer".
At 5.5mil cap hit, i'm willing to give Luongo a few more chances, but maybe that's because i don't put the blame on him and in fact i don't think he played all that bad. He's got some learning to do and i hope that he voluntariliy gives up the C (cuz i don't think Gillis or AV will strip it from him) and they put it on Kesler's sweater (not just for you either Beans) and he can focus on being a goalie and not having the distractions of the captaincy.
Finally, and i think i've said this before, it's the salary cap era. There are a few exceptions but for the most part, teams have to suck (or perhaps luck out with some later round steals that pan out) for a few years before they can stockpile enough young (and affordable) talent to compete. It's exactly what the Blackhawks blueprint shows! You don't just wake up with Toews, Kane, Seabrook and guys like that on your roster after winning multiple cups! You have to struggle for a few years and get the high picks. You guys aren't getting Hall or Seguin because you did well.
I hold out hope that Hodgson back is ok and he becomes the player he looks like he could be. Throw in Jordan Shroeder and a developing Michael Grabner and you suddenly have that youth which in a couple of years will still be relatively low cap hits yet productive? I can see us signing a big name free agent (prob d) with money that'll be saved from Demitra's 4 mill coming off the books. Couple that with the twins and Kesler, Burrows, etc and i like the look of the future. Oh, and don't forget, while Luuuuu's cap hit might look like it's a lot, the Hawks have a similar paid goalie sitting on the bench and they're still playing? Hasn't seemed to cripple them in the least! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 11:51:06
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What did Luongo prove at the Olympics?? There was not a single game that one can say Canada would have lost if not for Luongo. He played average, at best. He did nothing spectacular to win the Gold. It was the skaters ahead of him that won the game.
That being said, he also did not lose the game. Nor do I think he lost any of the playoff games. Many of the goals scored on him were 2 on 1's, breakaways, or screened PP goals. I don't recall very many, if any, weak goals that one could pin on Luongo.
However, what would have could have been the difference in Vancouver if they had a Doughty/Keith/Neidermayer/Lidstrom/Green type player on the blue line and a Dwayne Roloson type goalie??
Are the better or worse off?? I personally say better. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 12:08:27
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quote:
What did Luongo prove at the Olympics?? There was not a single game that one can say Canada would have lost if not for Luongo. He played average, at best. He did nothing spectacular to win the Gold. It was the skaters ahead of him that won the game.
That being said, he also did not lose the game. Nor do I think he lost any of the playoff games. Many of the goals scored on him were 2 on 1's, breakaways, or screened PP goals. I don't recall very many, if any, weak goals that one could pin on Luongo.
However, what would have could have been the difference in Vancouver if they had a Doughty/Keith/Neidermayer/Lidstrom/Green type player on the blue line and a Dwayne Roloson type goalie??
Are the better or worse off?? I personally say better.
In the Olympics, Luongo did what Brodeur did not - stopped shots and won games. You can argue all you like about "he had a great team in front of him" or "he didn't get challenged" all you like. Brodeur and Luongo had the same teams in front of them, and only one was able to win games.
Good goalies can have bad stretches, and mediocre goalies can have hot streaks. No goalie is good enough to steal series after series with such a decimated team in front of them.
As for a solid dman, we normally have one - Mitchell. Granted, not as complete as the ones you mention above (esp in the offensive department), but a very steady stay-at-home blueliner, and the Canucks #1 shutdown dman. The Canucks were never the same team after he went down - inconsistent, lots of blowout games, and ultimately not the playoff team that could have been. You just can't remove a defensive presence like him (25-30 minutes a game, #1 PK dman, plays against top forwards), and expect the rest of your corps to be able to fill in long term.
I suspected that Mitchell's absence would be felt in the playoffs (it was one of my "why will the canucks fail this year" options) - and was initially relieved when Edler seemed to step up his game. But ultimately, he could not sustain it, and no one could fill that hole well enough.
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Edited by - nuxfan on 05/13/2010 12:10:13 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 12:52:44
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Broduer stopped the shots as well. The issue was Brodeur decided he would showcase to the world that he can handle the puck and he turned it over to the Americans, handed them the lead, and that was the end of his time.
It's all speculation, however I can confidently say that any of Canada's 'elite' goalies (Mason, Fleury, Mason, Roloson, Ward, Giguere) would have and could have done what Luongo did in those 4ish games. He just had to stop the pucks he is supposed to stop. He was not asked to be brilliant like Miller or Halak were in the Olympics.
Don't put credit where credit is not due. Luongo did performance to the standard he was expected to, but was far from brilliant and far from an deciding factor in the medals.
He was, however, expected to be brilliant for the Canucks and simply wasn't. And it's not the C on his chest but that blood pump inside of his chest. He can talk all he wants, but I don't belive he has the heart to win. Unlike other players, I don't believe he would give everything to win. He doesn't have it in his character. Messier would die to win. Yzerman would die to win. Luongo, does it really matter to him if he wins or not?? |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 13:49:55
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quote:
Broduer stopped the shots as well. The issue was Brodeur decided he would showcase to the world that he can handle the puck and he turned it over to the Americans, handed them the lead, and that was the end of his time.
It's all speculation, however I can confidently say that any of Canada's 'elite' goalies (Mason, Fleury, Mason, Roloson, Ward, Giguere) would have and could have done what Luongo did in those 4ish games. He just had to stop the pucks he is supposed to stop. He was not asked to be brilliant like Miller or Halak were in the Olympics.
Don't put credit where credit is not due. Luongo did performance to the standard he was expected to, but was far from brilliant and far from an deciding factor in the medals.
Canada's goaltending elite included Brodeur - Brodeur was not asked to be brilliant either, simply to play his game. Except for a shootout against Switzerland, his game was not good enough.
Beans, you have no idea what other goalies might or might not have done in that situation - no one does, the Olympics is a spectacle of game7 situations every time they play, and anything can happen. What we DO know is what Luongo did in that situation, and that was not lose. So, why don't you put credit where credit IS due? After Luongo went into the net, Canada didn't lose another game enroute to a gold medal - he performed as expected.
quote:
He was, however, expected to be brilliant for the Canucks and simply wasn't. And it's not the C on his chest but that blood pump inside of his chest. He can talk all he wants, but I don't belive he has the heart to win. Unlike other players, I don't believe he would give everything to win. He doesn't have it in his character. Messier would die to win. Yzerman would die to win. Luongo, does it really matter to him if he wins or not??
Jeez...I know you're a Canuck-hater, but really? Do you really think that the Canuck braintrust would sign him to a lifetime deal if they didn't think he had the heart to compete? There's a whole front-office of hockey professionals that collectively made the decision to give him the biggest contract in Canuck history and marry themselves to him for the rest of his career. Further, I suspect they're not alone as hockey teams go that would have been lining up to do the same thing - your Oilers included. I'm quite sure that his heart and desire are not under question in Vancouver. However, the distractions of being captain and the team that plays in front of him are.
Unlike forwards, that can make a positive difference in a game (ie, scoring goals), the job of the goalie is to minimize the negative differences. Beans, can you tell me when was the last time that a goalie was the single biggest difference in every game of 4 consecutive rounds of playoff hockey enroute to being Stanley Cup champs? Never? Thats right - because it takes a team to win a cup. Sometimes your goalie has to come up big for you (like games 5/6 of the LA series, and game 1 and 5 of the Chicago series, when Luongo was brilliant). But your goalie simply cannot do that every night, and should not be counted on to do that every night - it's inhuman. The Canucks playing in front of Luongo gave up too many PP's and 2-on-1's to an offensively-gifted team, and didn't move enough Chicago bodies out of the way to win over the length of the series, and didn't score enough goals. And they lost. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 14:46:53
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Beans, here's my take, FWIW............
First off, i DO believe Luongo can win the big one and i believe he proved that at the Olympics. I agree he didn't need to be brilliant but he did have to "win the big one" with the pressure of the nation as well as many of his hometown (Vancouver) fans in attendance. While he wasn't asked to be brilliant, he did make saves that we will never know if the goalies you named would have made? Fleury certainly didn't last night? My opinion is that he played well enough to win some games and well enough to keep his team in others and give them a chance to win. There were not many goals that you could look at and say "Luongo should have stopped that" as it was a terrible goal. That's all you can ask for in a goalie. Look at something else, that being Montreal. Halak is playing out of this world! BUT, would they be where they are if Gill, Gorges, Cammalleri, etc hadn't picked up their games? Not a chance in hell! The Canucks needed some secondary scoring and a couple of dmen to step their games up. The skaters are as much or more to blame than Luuuuuu.
Secondly, i'm a little surprised at your comments about him not having the heart to win (or desire). That's absurd. This guy was in tears last year when we lost in Chicago! Crying! From everything i've seen, heard, read, etc about Luongo, i'd venture to guess he wants to win more than ANY other player on that roster! Seriously, i know it's your opinion and you're entitled to that, but i couldn't disagree more.
Funny, i'm always sticking up for Luongo (well, most of the time) and yet i'm not even a huge fan myself. I do still consider him a top 5 goalie in the league when he's on his game and i have no prob with the contract the team gave him, but i just don't like some of his actions and some of the things he says. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 15:04:42
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
.........Do you really think that the Canuck braintrust would sign him to a lifetime deal if they didn't think he had the heart to compete? There's a whole front-office of hockey professionals that collectively made the decision to give him the biggest contract in Canuck history and marry themselves to him for the rest of his career. Further, I suspect they're not alone as hockey teams go that would have been lining up to do the same thing - your Oilers included. I'm quite sure that his heart and desire are not under question in Vancouver. However, the distractions of being captain and the team that plays in front of him are.
I couldn't agree more with this.
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
....can you tell me when was the last time that a goalie was the single biggest difference in every game of 4 consecutive rounds of playoff hockey enroute to being Stanley Cup champs? Never?.....
Couldn't disagree with this more. How about Roy in 93 for the Canadiens. He was not only the BIGGEST reason, some would argue that he was the only reason. Or more recently Ward with Carolina. He was clearly the single BIGGEST reason. Or how about now with Halak. He single handedly slayed the two biggest giants in the East (yes still two rounds to go)
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2nd round - Canucks or Blackhawks 
