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 Who is the best highly penalized player ever? Allow Anonymous Users Reply to This Topic...
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2010 :  17:51:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is the EDITED version.

Of the players out there with an average of over 150 penalty minutes per season (excluding seasons where the player played less than 40 games due to injuries) throughout their careers, who is the best overall hockey player?

Edited by - andyhack on 03/11/2012 15:49:15

fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2010 :  18:36:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ineteresting question, for me there are a few that bring different facets to their game, but all kept the PM's up there.

Tiger Williams
Bob Probert
Dale Hunter
Pat 'the little ball of hate' Verbeek
Rick Tochett

All had significant impact on a game by game basis and are top 15 for penalty minutes.

My favorite would have to be Tiger Williams though, hard to find a player more entertaining in his heyday.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3586 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2010 :  19:07:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the best in what regard? Best fighter/agitator or best hockey player by normal definition?

Edited by - nuxfan on 10/16/2010 19:07:50
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2010 :  19:53:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Best overall hockey player. A guy like Tochett for example made very significant contributions to his teams due to not only his fighting and toughness.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2010 :  17:41:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
100 mins per season isn't really a whole lot if you're talking about "goons". It basically brings in a ton of power forwards. While he didn't hit 100 mins every year, CAM NEELY was well over 100 in the years he played 70+ games!
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2010 :  18:09:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Easy - Eric Lindros.

In his prime seasons (92/93 rookie season - 01/02), a span of 9 years, he was well over a point per game, had an mvp season in there, and was over 100 PIMs in each year except for the seasons he played under 60 games (94/95 - 46gp, 60 PIM, and 99/00 - 55gp, 83 PIM).

Never has a player been called "the best in the game", or one of the top 5, and been a tougher dude.

Love him or hate him (I often hated him, btw), that respect must be given.

Guys like Tiger Williams and Cam Neely, for me, are a far behind second . . . although without looking up the numbers, I know Tiger's PIMs are probably double Lindros'.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2010 :  18:37:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good one Slozo. Another example of what i meant by saying the 100 mins takes the goons out of this question, if in fact that was what was intended by the OP?
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3586 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2010 :  22:36:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
growing up in Calgary in the 80's, I was always a big fan of Gary Roberts. In his prime he was a monster - from 89/90 thru 93/94 he was nearly a PPG player and averaging over 200 PIM's a year, his best year being 91/92 with 53 g, 90pts and 207 PIM.

In fact, if you look even further, his first 7 years in CGY (87/88 thru 93/94), Roberts had 444 points in 511 games, and a whopping 1530 PIM's. And won a cup in 89.

He might be the most talented forward I can think of that was consistently over 200 PIM's per season in his best offensive years.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2010 :  06:54:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex 116 - yeah, I didn't want it to be just about the goons.

By the way, I meant to say "AVERAGE of 100 penalty minutes per year"

Seems to be Neely vs. Lindros right now, and that actually is a very interesting question. Lindros v. Neely. In their prime and healthy. Who do you take? Tough choice for me. Neely in the '91 playoffs up until the Ulfie incident was, in addition to causing absolute chaos and havoc in other regards, was on course for a 20 playoff goal season. That point often gets drowned out of history (so every few years I pop up and say it on Pickup Hockey).

Brendan Shanahan might be up there too. For a second I thought maybe Forsberg, but interestingly he falls a bit short of the penalty minute requirement

But okay, now that you guys mention it, out of interest, what if we up the penalty minute requirement to an average of 150 minutes a year? Who are our top guys then?
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
696 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2010 :  07:05:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wendel Clarke, Cam Neely, Bobby Clarke, The Hanson Brothers :)
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Guest7925
( )

Posted - 10/18/2010 :  07:26:11  Reply with Quote
Gordie Howe
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3586 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2010 :  09:44:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Another player in the 100 PIM club that no one mentioned - Bobby Clarke. During the most successful years for PHI, Clarke was getting over 100 pts and around 140 PIM's. And winning cups.

Above 150 PIM, its hard to find players that were also relatively high scorers - frankly, if you're spending that much time in the penalty box, you aren't scoring goals.

Lindros might be the best in the 100-150 PIM mark - while Clarke had 3 great years at that mark, Lindros spent his whole career at a 90pt/140 PIM level.

Cam Neely was probably one of the best in a very short list of 150-200PIM players. Over a 3 year stretch he was over PPG and had PIM's of 143/175/190.

Over 200 PIM's, I still maintain that Gary Roberts was probably the best of an excruciatingly small list - in fact, that list might only be him. 7 seasons of .8 ppg and well over 200 PIM's per season in that stretch - including 2 seasons above 250. I think that would be hard to beat.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3586 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2010 :  09:53:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
...and just then I read FER's first reply to see some other names that would qualify

Dale Hunter - looks to be the winner in the 200+ PIM category. 10 seasons of nearly ppg production and every season over 200 PIM's (except for one suspension-shortened season). That outdoes Roberts for sure.

Pat Verbeek - honourable mention as well, 4 solid seasons of ppg and 200+ PIM's.

Tiger Williams might be the only player in NHL history that had any significant offensive production at 300+ PIM's, he seemed good for 50-ish points in those years he went over 300. 80/81 with the Canucks, he had 62 pts and 343 PIM's! Where did he find the time to get 62 points?

Rick Tochett might be the holder of the best "fantasy season" in 92/93 - 48g, 109pt, 252 PIM. That would be good for a #1 overall ranking in any yahoo pool over the last 5 years.
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Guest9195
( )

Posted - 10/18/2010 :  14:44:11  Reply with Quote
How bout Theo Fleury? 1840 Pen minutes, 1088 points, in 1084 games. The guy was one of the best aggitators around and had a huge amount of skill. Guys hated playing against him, probably hated playing with him too, but you can't argue his dynamic skillset.
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Guest1732
( )

Posted - 10/18/2010 :  16:44:39  Reply with Quote
Hah Theoren Fleury. What a joke.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1878 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2010 :  17:55:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest1732

Hah Theoren Fleury. What a joke.

Whats the Joke! Theoren Fleury never met a player he backed down from and was a leader for the flames for 10ish years.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2010 :  18:55:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I thought of FLeury, but I really was thinking more "tough guy" than highly penalised agitator.

I'd still take Lindros over Fleury, and over Neely - mvp, guys. C'mon. He really was a force.

And Dale Hunter over Roberts for the +200 PIMs crowd? Not a chance . . . I have to cry "80s stats foul" here. Roberts was way more talented than Hunter IMHO, and I think he wins in a walk there.

Not voting on Clarke - yes, I hate him that much.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest8363
( )

Posted - 10/19/2010 :  16:11:08  Reply with Quote
Terrible Ted Lindsay ? Feared throughout the league, and a very decent point producer.
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Lee Marshall
Rookie



Canada
102 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2012 :  11:00:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wendal count? Lotsa PIMS...and points and, unlike Neely, longevity.

Who the cap fits...Let them wear it.
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simleung
Top Prospect

Canada
26 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2012 :  11:14:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My first thought in response to this question was Brendan Shanahan.

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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
914 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2012 :  11:50:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For a period of 5 years in the early 90's, Kevin Stevens stats are pretty impressive! His best being the 91/92 season in which he had 54 goals 69 assists 123 points, and 254 PIM's!

Keith Tkachuk is another guy not mentioned yet that deserves to be. 500+ career goals, 1000+ career points, 2000+ career penalty minutes. His personal seasonal bests were 52 goals ('97), 98 points ('96), and 255 PIMS ('94).

Edited by - ryan93 on 03/07/2012 11:53:12
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2012 :  12:05:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To get away from the power forward mind set for a sec, Scott Stevens, especially in his younger years, should get mentioned as well, IMO.
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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
374 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2012 :  12:58:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dino C.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2012 :  14:09:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Prob here is, 100 PIMs is not really all that much when you look at some of the guys who were mentioned. Make it 200 and a guy like Kevin Stevens really comes to the forefront!
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Guest2872
( )

Posted - 03/08/2012 :  14:27:22  Reply with Quote
wow...what a list of players we are talking about!! How do think a team of Clarke, Neely, Lindsay, Shanny, Wendel, Lindros, Roberts.....etc, etc, would do in play-offs???
Add in some gritty players like Gilmour, Fleury, and maybe Hartnell and Lucic today and other teams wouldn't want to step on the ice....lol
Might as well have Hextall and Smith play net too!!
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2012 :  17:08:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2872

wow...what a list of players we are talking about!! How do think a team of Clarke, Neely, Lindsay, Shanny, Wendel, Lindros, Roberts.....etc, etc, would do in play-offs???
Add in some gritty players like Gilmour, Fleury, and maybe Hartnell and Lucic today and other teams wouldn't want to step on the ice....lol
Might as well have Hextall and Smith play net too!!




Hey, there's another great suggestion! I'm assuming Hextall had over 100 pims in a season? Heck, he prob had that many in a playoff season!
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2012 :  17:39:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The answer to the original question is of course Bobby Orr
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2012 :  22:12:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willus3

The answer to the original question is of course Bobby Orr



Exactly why i said it should have been set at 200 pims!

Having said that, it does say "100 penalty minutes per year"? Maybe andyhack meant that the player had to average 100/year over their career???
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Guest7961
( )

Posted - 03/11/2012 :  11:19:50  Reply with Quote
Orr. Followed closely by Howe. Then there is drop to Eddie Shore. Then a continental shelf-like plummet to every one else except one. The last place coward is Bobby Clarke.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2012 :  15:46:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I admit that I could have worded the original question a lot better. I meant average (over relatively full seasons), and agree that the number should be a bit higher. In my second post I tried to clarify that, but just to make it clear and restart a more interesting topic I am going to edit the original post now.
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