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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
 Posted - 02/04/2007 : 17:28:53
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I am curious to know what others think of Paul Coffey.
Where would you rank him for all time defencemen and why?
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ryschevy1
Rookie
Canada
186 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2007 : 18:32:36
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I'd rank him 2nd behind Bobby Orr. As far as offensive-defenseman go these two are second to none.
GO OIL!!! YA!!! |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2007 : 18:40:07
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| ROTFLMFAO!!! |
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ryschevy1
Rookie
Canada
186 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2007 : 18:51:05
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What the hell does that mean? If you don't like my opinion, then why did you ask the question?
GO OIL!!! YA!!! |
Edited by - ryschevy1 on 02/04/2007 18:51:54 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2007 : 18:55:02
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| I didn't say i didn't like your pinion. I did like it. It made me laugh. |
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KariyaSelanne
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
297 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2007 : 19:29:12
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Paul Coffey was a good defencemen, I wouldn't rank him second but I would say top 10.
Go Preds Go!!! |
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-oil-country-
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
988 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2007 : 19:49:30
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
ROTFLMFAO!!!
i'm assuming that means Roll On The Floor Laughing My F***ing Ass Off? |
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Guest8336
( )
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Posted - 02/04/2007 : 20:03:15
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| Indeed it does. |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2007 : 20:53:54
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id put him top ten for sure, Somwhere behind Orr and Bourque
CANUCKS RULE!! |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2007 : 21:45:05
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Other than Orr and Bourque, who would be the other 6 ahead of him ?
If you saw him play in his prime, he would be #2 on your list...
After all tomorrow is another day... |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2007 : 22:38:39
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I said he was in the top ten behind Bourque and orr he could be from 3-10 im not sure having not seen alot of great d-men play
CANUCKS RULE!! |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 08:12:10
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| I don't think anyone born before the 70s would really be informed enough to give a reasonable answer, other than the obvious. I was born in '88 so by the time I actually truly followed hockey, he was way too old for me to see how good he really was, same with Ray Bourque and a few other greats. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 09:31:43
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As many of you know, I am the world's biggest Oilers fan and I did see all the great Oilers play in their prime. That being said, Paul Coffey was second to one offensively. Defensively, he was not really that good. He was smart defensively, but took too many risks offensively that he maybe shouldn't have. But the fact that he scored so much covered up a lot of his defensive mistakes. He still holds or shares 4 NHL records and Sporting News put him #28 in the top 100 of all time. He is the 2nd all time PPG leader for defensemen, again behind Orr. Offensively he was great, This would be my top 5, which I am sure Willus will disagree with:
1) Bobby Orr
2) Ray Bourque
3) Doug Harvey
4) Paul Coffey
5) Nick Lidstrom/Larry Robinson (tie)
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 13:39:38
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My list would be:
1) Orr
2) Harvey
3) Shore
4) Park
5) Bourque
6) Potvin
7) Robinson
8) Kelly
9) Chelios
10) Lidstrom
Coffey is somewhere in the 15 - 20 range. His defensive liabilities outweigh his offensive prowess by too much for me to put him higher.
I will give Coffey this; he was quite possibly the best skater i have ever seen.
Very smooth and very fast. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 15:27:11
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| Coffey between 15-20?? I'm thinking you have something against the former Oiler Greats. To put guys like Chelios and Lidstrom ahead of Coffey is ridiculous. You could have arguments for some of the others. Many of them I did not see play a lot or even at all, so you may be right. Coffey was the second best offensive defenseman in history. Bourque may have had more points, but he also played more games. And play-off wise, he was the most prolific offensive defensemen in history. The only players with more Play-Off points are Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, and Anderson. (Wow, top 5 all Oilers in the 80's, coincidence?? I think not!) To put him out of the top 5 all time I might be able to swallow. But out of the top ten?? C'mon, why are you hatin so much, dog?? (Too much American Idol!!!) |
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devilsjetsfan
Top Prospect
Canada
59 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 16:41:56
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have any of you guys even seen him play? ive only seen him play once or twice on a NHL classic rerun. but id say hes pretty good, judging on what i saw
Go Devils Go |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 16:49:49
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Coffey's point production is largely contributed to the fact that he played with the two most prolific point getters of all time. Gretz and Lemieux.
He was a fantastic offensive talent. But as you said yourself Beans, he was not very good defensively and that's precisely what a defenseman is supposed to be good at. Offense is a bonus.
Chelios is a far superior defenseman than Coffey. He's skilled at taking guys out, either with a poke check or a body check. He sees the ice well, makes great breakout passes, and contributes offensively as well. And, especially early in his career, no one liked playing against him.
Lidstom is all around great.
I don't hate the Oilers. They were a fantastic team.
American Idol is gay! |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 17:18:12
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Here's what Bowman said about Coffey.
''He's not one of my favorites,'' said Bowman, referring to Coffey as a role player. ''A guy that can skate like he can, has all that talent, why can't he play defense?'... He's not as good on the power play as people think. The main thing he can do is carry the puck up the ice, but his work at the point isn't that great.''
That's from the winningest coach of all time.
Just sayin'. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 19:02:03
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Rather than get into another Gretzky/Orr type debate, I will leave this one to "agree to disagree." But I think I have finally figured out our differences. You put more stake in defense and I put more stake in offense. Still enjoy the debate! Here's a different spin on this. Here is my top 6 defensemen in pairings.
Orr - Bourque
Coffey - Robinson
Lidstrom - Harvey
Who are yours?? |
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ryschevy1
Rookie
Canada
186 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 19:14:24
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I apologize to Willus 3 I guess I took that the wrong way. You do have a legit point on Coffeys defensive skills though. I was looking at the scoring side of him.
GO OIL!!! YA!!! |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 19:39:45
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No need to apologize RYSCHEVY1.
It's all just opinion anyway. Cheers! |
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1 Crosby fan
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1454 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 19:43:14
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
My list would be:
1) Orr
2) Harvey
3) Shore
4) Park
5) Bourque
6) Potvin
7) Robinson
8) Kelly
9) Chelios
10) Lidstrom
Coffey is somewhere in the 15 - 20 range. His defensive liabilities outweigh his offensive prowess by too much for me to put him higher.
I will give Coffey this; he was quite possibly the best skater i have ever seen.
Very smooth and very fast.
dude that would me my list to |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 19:46:35
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For pairings I'd go:
Orr and Bourque - Pretty hard to top that pair.
Robinson and Potvin - They would be absolutely devastating together. Both HUGE hitters and Potvin would add some offence.
Park and Harvey. Park is generally very under appreciated.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 08:00:54
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Like I said, you favor defense while I favor offense. Our pairings prove that as well.
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oil guy
Rookie
Canada
122 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 12:15:28
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the title of the tread is rate paul coffey's play.
not was he the best d man.
if you watched him play you would know he was not out there as a dman.
he was an extra attacker every time he was on the ice.
would he be as good if he played today?
i think so but he would need a good stay at home dman as a partner.
the oil team he played on didnt think defense it was run and gun and as long as you got more goal than the other guys yahoo!
as a dman he maybe should not have been in the big show but as a PLAYER he was great.
the name of the game is goals and he could deliver from one end to the other on his own.
if football was played on ice with skates he would be the best running back(skating back) out there because he hit is stride so fast that he rarely could be caught.
imo
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 19:46:05
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Does this help to make my point about his weak defensive play? 2nd worst all time even strength goals against.
Name Games ESGA GPG
Serge Savard 1038 976 0.94
Larry Murphy 1615 1541 0.95
Guy Lapointe 884 852 0.96
Brad Park 1113 1098 0.99
Brian Leetch 1072 1120 1.04
Doug Wilson 1024 1109 1.08
Al Iafrate 799 884 1.11
Randy Carlyle 1055 1208 1.15
Paul Coffey 1409 1654 1.17
Borje Salming 1148 1356 1.18
Over 100 more ESGA than he has career points. Hmmmmmm....... |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 20:40:56
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Yes we need to throw Borje Salming into the mix...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak... |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 06:51:16
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Ooohh, yeah, sorry about that Puck Nuts.
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2007 : 20:21:21
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| No, not too young, but it definitely reinforces my memories. One defensive play in all of those clips seems about right to capture his career in a nutshell. |
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Saku Steen
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1102 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 03:45:46
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| I have never seen Coffey play, although my dad says he was amazing. |
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Guest8640
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Posted - 02/25/2007 : 21:43:35
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Coffey is my favourite player ever. We was a spectacle to watch in his young career (Edmonton, Pittsburgh, LA & Detroit). Then the game changed to clutching and grabbing and Coffey faded very quickly.
If the game had remained wide open, Coffey would be the all-time goal, assist and point leader among dmen. In fact, he would easily be in the top 3 dmen of all time behind only Orr and Bourque. He might even have been considered the best of all time.
Don't believe me? That is fine. But try to catch a full game when Coffey is rolling. You will see, it's amazing how you get to see do his rushed up ice. It's quite something to see.
It's a real shame his career was so terrible after Detroit. Boo to Scotty Bowman! :)
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 23:44:09
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2nd Best Offensive Dman ever.
He drops down the list a few if you start rating on overall game.
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 08:10:23
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quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
2nd Best Offensive Dman ever.
He drops down the list a few if you start rating on overall game.
Way down!! |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 00:58:05
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Way down!!
I'm a little POed right now cause I wrote a 2 page argument on how you are wrong and it all got deleted somehow. ARG. ;)
Bottom-line is Coffey was great. Top 2 offensive Dmen of all time and he was not nearly as bad defensively as you imply. In fact, I would call him good defensively - but the key to his game was speed and offence. The guy has +50/+60 type seasons for the first half of the 80's (which is better than Bourque's or Potvin's or Chelios' or ..) and he really only had 1 poor +/- season (on an extremely weak and defensiveless penguins team). He was around a +300 (which is about Chelios' as well) for his career which isnt too shabby. If you look at his entire career +/- on a year by year basis, it's actually alarmingly good.
The guy was an effortless speed demon who could do everything at top speed and had a wicked shot. Both Lemieux and Gretzky both proclaimed Coffey as the best passer they have every seen.
Did he play with some great players? Yes he did.. but so did a heckuva lotta other people.
C'mon mang... the guys got 1531 friggin' points in only 1409 games. Almost 400 goals! 8 20+ goal years, 4 30+ goal years, and 2 40+ goal years... as a defenseman!! The guy played at a super elite level and had a 20 year career... give him his kudos!!
Before writing this, off the top of my head, i'd put him in the Top 5 as a no brainer... now after thinking about it a bit more, he's now a solid #2 in my books. |
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Guest5341
( )
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Posted - 03/07/2007 : 20:44:03
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| Paul was the best won't see another like him! |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 20:52:43
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quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Way down!!
I'm a little POed right now cause I wrote a 2 page argument on how you are wrong and it all got deleted somehow. ARG. ;)
Bottom-line is Coffey was great. Top 2 offensive Dmen of all time and he was not nearly as bad defensively as you imply. In fact, I would call him good defensively - but the key to his game was speed and offence. The guy has +50/+60 type seasons for the first half of the 80's (which is better than Bourque's or Potvin's or Chelios' or ..) and he really only had 1 poor +/- season (on an extremely weak and defensiveless penguins team). He was around a +300 (which is about Chelios' as well) for his career which isnt too shabby. If you look at his entire career +/- on a year by year basis, it's actually alarmingly good.
The guy was an effortless speed demon who could do everything at top speed and had a wicked shot. Both Lemieux and Gretzky both proclaimed Coffey as the best passer they have every seen.
Did he play with some great players? Yes he did.. but so did a heckuva lotta other people.
C'mon mang... the guys got 1531 friggin' points in only 1409 games. Almost 400 goals! 8 20+ goal years, 4 30+ goal years, and 2 40+ goal years... as a defenseman!! The guy played at a super elite level and had a 20 year career... give him his kudos!!
Before writing this, off the top of my head, i'd put him in the Top 5 as a no brainer... now after thinking about it a bit more, he's now a solid #2 in my books.
You're PO'd and I can't stop laughing. #2? Really? Set the crack pipe down for a few hours. Coffey isn't better than any one of the ten i listed. Even with all of his points he was a liability on the ice. He has around 100 more even strength goals against than he has total points. I'll say it again. He would have made a fantastic forward. |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 21:13:57
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quote:
[Even with all of his points he was a liability on the ice. He has around 100 more even strength goals against than he has total points. I'll say it again. He would have made a fantastic forward.
Let's see.. he was a +300 for his career. That means that he was on the ice for 300 more even strength goals than against (omitting the short-handed goals for or against, for the sake of argument). Your statement "100 more even strength goals against than he has total points" just doesnt compute. He should be a -500 then.
You can certainly have your opinion that he wasnt one of the best to ever lace up the skates, but you don't really have a lot of (accurate) hard data to support that.
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 06:33:06
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He has 1531 career points and 1654 even strength goals against.
He's +300 for his career because he played on the high scoring Oilers.
What I'm saying is, is that his offense doesn't overcome his defensive liabilities. |
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Guest4898
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Posted - 03/08/2007 : 08:07:37
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The Hockey News poll from the late 90's had Coffey behind Orr, Harvey, Shore, Bourque, Potvin, Kelly, and Robinson, in that order. I never saw Shore play, or Kelly and Harvey during their best years, but from the hockey I've watched since the 60's I'd say the experts at THN had it right, although I think Robinson ( at +731, no other player in history is within +200 of him), should have been fifth. The only change I'd make is adding Lidstrom to those ahead of Coffey, given the Norris winning years he's had since the poll was taken. And maybe, just maybe putting Brad Park ahead of him too.
The offence/defence thing is irrelevant. If you help your team win by scoring at one end or preventing a goal at the other, it works out to the same difference. When Harry Sinden was asked who he'd rather have on the ice, Orr or Bourque, he said Orr if he was a goal behind, and Bourque if he was a goal ahead. The same applies to Coffey. He was defensively just okay, but offensively stellar. Seventh or eighth is about right. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 09:31:48
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Guest 4898 you should become a member. We could use some seasoned knowledge.
I would put Park ahead of Coffey. He was runner up for the Norris 6 times and the only reason he didn't win it was because he was up against Orr and Potvin.
He's very under appreciated.
The offense / defense thing is hardly irrelevant. The primary job of a defenseman is to prevent goals against. If you aren't good at that then you are not a good defenseman. Period. Offense is purely a bonus. The fact that Orr was great defensively and offensively is what made him so special.
And did you just imply that Orr was "just ok" defensively?
Also if you asked Sinden who he would pick in a draft situation between Orr and Bourque, who do you think he would say?  |
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Topic |
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Rate Paul Coffey's Play 
