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ryschevy1
Rookie
Canada
186 Posts |
 Posted - 02/05/2007 : 19:21:05
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The Flames are set to retire Mike Vernon's # 30. I was wondering if any of you think Kipper is better than him, or if they are fairly comparable. I know Vernon's playoff stats far exceed Kippers but otherwise I think Vernon was way better. Just throwin it out there!
GO OIL!!! YA!!!
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 19:52:10
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Not sure who I'd say is better but I can't stand Vernon. Total arrogant a*&hole!
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 20:09:01
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I find it funny that Mike vernon gets his # retired before Montreal retired Roy's.....Montreal needs to work on retiring players jerseys a little faster...I mean, Ken Dryden just got his retired LAST WEEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I HATE CROSBY |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 20:51:40
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Having not seen Mike Vernon play first hand i can not say who is better, but i agree with Willus's comment, arrogant a******!
CANUCKS RULE!! |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 21:19:54
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The whole premise of retiring numbers is completely absurd to me, especially retiring Gretzky's number across the league. Absolutely stupid.
Mike Vernon? Give me a break. Should we retire every goalie's number who's ever won a Cup? So stupid. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 07:59:29
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Was Vernon better than Kipper??? Technically speaking, no. As a goalie, Kipper is better in my opinion. But, Vernon brought home a Cup in the Oilers prime. Kipper will never have a chance to achieve such a feat.
And I disagree with Babs almost completely. I think the retiring a number is the utmost respect for the effort and dedication a player had to an organization. It will happen far less now and will have less meaning because it's not often a superstar stays in one place for very long. 99 across the league is cheesy, I admit. But 99 retired in Edmonton and LA is a fine honor for the Great One. #11 will hit the rafters at the old Northlands Coliseum at the end of the month, and it will be great.
It's really a home team thing. Edmonton retired Al Hamilton's #3 just because he was the first captain of the Might Oil. I agree with Vernon getting his number retired in Calgary. He was huge, maybe the biggest member of the Flames when they won the Cup, before, and after. And don't forget, to win that Cup the Flames had to beat those same Mighty Oilers. Not an easy feat in the 80's. There were only two teams(in my memory) that beat the Oilers in the 80's in the playoffs. NYI and CAL.
By the way, Vernon was not a total hack. He is top 10 in career wins. He never won a vezina but did win the Jennings as well as a Conn Smythe.385 reg season wins and 77 playoff wins. Without sounding rude, did you have a chance to see him play in Calgary?? Did you watch him win the Cup??? It was pretty amazing as far as goaltending goes. Not only that, he spent 13 of his 20 years with the Flames. Unless you lived in Alberta in the 80’s, you can’t understand the rivalry that was going on. To beat the Oilers in ’89, I can’t explain how HUGE that was.
Willus, you are 100% correct, arrogant. That’s not a strong enough word for him. But still did a hell of a job backstopping the Flames through the 80’s. Can’t deny that. I can also think of a really amazing goalie that is very arrogant. He’s makes comments about plugging his ears with Stanley Cup rings when he doesn’t like what other players are saying. Remember him????? I think many great goalies, and players for that matter, are arrogant.
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 10:04:18
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I think the retiring of a number should only be for players who died while playing for their team. Like Joe Hall, Dan Snyder etc. I say this mostly because last hockey season, one of my teammates, the only girl on our team, was struck by a car while crossing a road (in a crosswalk) and she later died in hospital. The organization we played for retired her #14 in a ceremony late in 2006. I feel this is the only appropriate time to do such a thing. Whether or not the death was directly related to the sport, this represents a true form of remembering players who gave the ultimate sacrifice. Remembering good players from the past is what the Hall of Fame is for, and every team has their own version.
For anyone in NS who might have heard about this, her name was Mary-Beth Chaulk.
It seems to happen more often in football, where players collapse either during games or practices from usually heat exhaustion. Some of them aren't able to recover. I think it would be especially appropriate for these players' numbers to be retired, as they gave their lives literally, to play the sport they loved. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 02/06/2007 10:06:39 |
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oil guy
Rookie
Canada
122 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 12:06:10
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imo just being a great player on a team does not justify having your number retired.
if that was the case why is fleury not hanging from the rafters in the saddle dome?
vernon gettign his number retired is a joke. not because he was not a good goalie but because he was ONLY a good goalie.
many players really step it up in the play off run like vernon did ONE year.
if the oilers won the cup last year should they have to retire pisani number because he had a great play off?
now is vernon or kipper better? i dont know because i never played goal and do not know the technical aspect i do know that kipper can carry the team to victories on his own and i do not remeber vernon doing that too often.
and kipper is far classier a player.
imo
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 13:47:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
...But, Vernon brought home a Cup in the Oilers prime. Kipper will never have a chance to achieve such a feat....
Beany, you know I have to disagree with you about Kipper's chances for the future. LOL!
I watched the Flames win the cup that year and Vernon was beyond amazing! Also the year before that he took them to the finals and lost to Montreal in 7 I think, so he was also amazing that year too. The year before that he won the William Jennings Trophy. Then later, he won another cup and a Conn Smythe in 97 with Detroit. Not a bad career. Retiring numbers is a slippery slope and I think that you have to be pretty special to earn the honour. I think the Flames are just looking to honour someone but they should be careful not to set the bar too low.
I do think that Kiprusoff is a very classy goalie as Oil Guy put it. He seems pretty calm which is kind of weird since most goalies blow a gasket almost every game. I think Kipper will shine even more but I am biased. |
Edited by - leigh on 02/06/2007 13:50:29 |
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semin-rules
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1915 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 14:34:21
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
The whole premise of retiring numbers is completely absurd to me, especially retiring Gretzky's number across the league. Absolutely stupid.
I actually totaly agree with Babs
Retiring a number across the league i agree its stupid.
But playing with number 99 is sacreligous it is an unwrittin law that knowone will wear number 99!
Retiring a number for the teams he played for i agree with.
~~~~~GO STARS~~~~~ |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 14:39:45
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It isn't an unwritten law, the #99 will never be worn again in the NHL because it's been retired. Just saying that seems so ridiculous.
I know this is a little off the topic of Vernon but allow me to go off track for a moment... What if Gretzky wore 19? You have to tell guys like Sakic and Yzerman they have to change numbers...? I know Mario wore 66 purposely because Gretzky had 99 but what if Gretzky was 66? Do you tell Super Mario he has to change numbers? What if for some strange reason he was 33... Do you tell Patrick Roy and a dozen other goalies that they have to change?
I would love for someone like Sean Avery to sneak a #99 onto the ice, just to see what kind of reaction he'd get. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 02/06/2007 14:43:52 |
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devilsjetsfan
Top Prospect
Canada
59 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 14:42:15
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i dont think they should complety retire the number, maybe just raise to to the roof in recognition but not retire it so no one else can use it.
sooner or later players will be using numbers like 24 1/2 lol
Go Devils Go |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 15:21:55
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
I think the retiring of a number should only be for players who died while playing for their team.
They did that with Valeri Kharlamov after he died in a car crash...#17 has been retired in Russia and players can't wear it in the Olympics (which is why Kovalchuk switched the digits to 71 while playing internationally). Sergei Zholtok of Latvia died on the rink during a game a few years ago due to heart problems; I don't know if they retired his number or not, but they most likely did. Also, a player on a local team here in Maryland died in a car crash, and his number, 19, has been retired in that league and was printed on the floor beneath the ice as a memorial. Retiring numbers to honor players who have died makes sense, but retiring Vernon's number? Come on, just because he won a Cup isn't a good enough reason. Numbers are getting retired way too quickly now, they need to slow down and consider only the players who have either died or done something extraordinary (like Gretzky--I have no problem with #99 being retired) before they start retiring numbers. At this rate, ALL the numbers will end up being retired between the teams, then players will be wearing 1.5 or something, lol. Or even pi, like I said in the "Which number would you chooose?" thread  |
Edited by - Mikhailova on 02/07/2007 07:37:44 |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 15:25:21
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I think Beans is right, it is a form respect and it recognizes players who played great for their teams. This is one way teams say "Thank-You" to the players.
Gretzky's number is retired because he can be argued for best player ever and was hockey's greatest ambassador.
What Toronto does is awsome, I think. They don't retire jerseys, but honor them. It allows future players to wear the same number they idolized growing up and possibly add to the legacy of that number.
~You play to win the Game~ Herm Edwards |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 16:22:45
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quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
...What Toronto does is awsome, I think. They don't retire jerseys, but honor them. It allows future players to wear the same number they idolized growing up and possibly add to the legacy of that number....
That is a great idea leafsfan_101. it pays tribute and allows others to dream. nice.
I have no problem with the league retiring Gretz's number. No one had 99 so it was pretty easy, and besides he has a thousand points more than his nearest competitor. If someone gets close or passes him then go ahead and retire theirs, that person will be pretty damn special.
As for the teams, it's their prerogative but be sure it truly is warranted, I'm on the fence about Vernon. |
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Ripley
PickupHockey Pro
USA
365 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 16:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
I think Beans is right, it is a form respect and it recognizes players who played great for their teams. This is one way teams say "Thank-You" to the players.
not only to the players but to that specific generation of fans that watched that player and really understood how great he was. Every generation is born not knowing how special that person was. Retiring jerseys is good for the game. |
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semin-rules
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1915 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 16:28:18
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
It isn't an unwritten law, the #99 will never be worn again in the NHL because it's been retired.
Oh...i didn't know that
~~~~~GO STARS~~~~~ |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 17:03:07
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quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
What Toronto does is awsome, I think. They don't retire jerseys, but honor them. It allows future players to wear the same number they idolized growing up and possibly add to the legacy of that number.
Yeah guess whose idea that was.... I'll give you a hint, he just got his #29 retired by the Canadiens. Hypocrite. But I like the idea, it makes more sense than eliminating that number from a team's roster until the end of time. There are better ways of saying thank you. Especially when the standards to get one's number retired are so inconsistent. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2007 : 20:45:08
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Beans, forgive my ignorance. Who is the goalie you refer to plugging his ears with Cup rings. That's actually pretty damn funny. It's gotta be Roy?
I agree with you too Babs about retiring a number especially league wide. Ridiculous. I like TO's idea.
I feel bad for Calgary if Vernon is the history they have to be proud of. I'd retire Iggy's number right now before Vernon's. LOL |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2007 : 21:42:42
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Willus you are right, it was Roy with the Cup rings in the ears. Here are the details.
In the 1996 Western Conference semi-finals between the Colorado Avalanche and the Chicago Blackhawks, Jeremy Roenick said, "I'd like to know where Patrick was in Game 3 [a game in which Roenick had scored on Roy], probably up trying to get his jock out of the rafters." Roy retorted with his now-famous line, "I can't hear what Jeremy says, because I've got my two Stanley Cup rings plugging my ear." Roy and the Avalanche went on to win the Cup.
I agree with hanging the numbers in the rafters and I think that Vernon did do some great things for the Flames. Let's not forget that he was also born in Calgary and played his minor hockey there. It is more than just the Flames with him, it's about the city. Same as Messier in Edmonton. He was born in St. Albert (a satellite community of Edmonton) and played with the St. Albert Saints and the Spruce Grove Mets (another satellite community of Edmonton). So these players are more than just the pros. Born and raised and junior hockey. It's more about the community with these fellas. And do you all forget about Lanny McDonald?? He played with the Flames when they were still the Colorado Rockies. He was also born in Southern Alberta and he started his career with Calgary Centinnials of the WCHL. Plus, he’s a 500 goal guy and is in the H.O.F. There's one that belongs in the rafters of the Saddledome, well before Iginla.
So let’s look a little deeper than just the pro teams. It's a way for the communities to honor their heroes as well.
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2007 : 16:20:18
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Thanks Beans, now I recall. As soon as I saw Roenick's name it clicked.
Lanny for sure.
And I was being sarcastic about Iginla. One day maybe, but not yet.
I still don't know about Vernon. *&@$ing pr*&@!!! |
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Vernon's #30 to be retired 
