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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
 Posted - 12/18/2010 : 18:43:32
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Poll Question:
Cammalleri
28 years old 5ft 9inchs 180lbs
Career year:
81GP 39G 43A 81P
Kessel
23 years old 5ft 11 inchs 180lbs
Career year
70GP 36G 24A 60P
If you were a GM and could have either of these players to play for your team which would you chose?
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2010 : 18:54:13
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Generally i do not like these player vs. player polls but i find both these players so comparable i think we can have a logical sane debate over which player is better for a team. Keep in mind my question is which player would you chose for your team so one could be a better player than the other right now but we are also looking at the futur aswell.
Both these players are pure Snipers, while they are not terrible defensivly their primary concern is generating offense they are both small speedy wingers with quick release's and a nose for the net but who is better at their role, I have a hard time deciding Cammalleri has put up better numbers in the past and is generally a better playmaker but Kessel for the last little while hasn't had an oppurtunity to excell as a play maker quite simply because of the team he has played for.
Goal wise i think these players are a wash neither is a better Goal Scorer than the other you can pretty much bet on them being within 5 goals of each other on a yearly basis, Cammalleri thus far is a better passer but again Cammalleri has had better players to play with and is also 5 years older, Kessel may develop into a better play maker when he has better or more expirenced line mates to play with.
As of right now i would take Cammalleri based on the fact winning a cup is every gm's goal and based on Cammy's playoffs last year that breaks the tie in my mind, not that Kessel cannot put up those kind of numbers in the playoffs but i would rather go with the player i know is a gamebreaker than go with the potential game breaker.
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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doublechamp7
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
278 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2010 : 19:37:53
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Kessel is way to hot-then-cold to be put ahead of Cammeleri, Cammelleri is way more consistent
My avatar is a rodent. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2010 : 19:43:16
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| judging by the outcome of the poll thus far, they are not so comparable after all. I'd take Cammy. Its funny considering that Cammarelli wanted to sign in TOR when he was UFA, but Burke did not want him for the money he was asking - and then promptly traded away the future for Kessel, and then paid him more money than Cammy gets. He could have had Cammarelli, and he would now also have Seguin. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 09:06:26
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I think it's a little unfair comparison today. Kessel is playing his hockey with a used wooden stick at centre and a sock playing the other wing. He has ZERO support on that team. Nothing. Comparatively, Cammalleri has some talent with him in Gionta, Plekanec, even Gomez and Kostitsyn are 2 full steps ahead of anything Kessel.
Furthermore, looking at Kessel's career year, it was his 2nd year. At 20, he was over 35 goals. Cammelleri has his career season at 25.
So it's not really fair to look at is straight up. So looking deeper, I see Kessel as more potentail. He does have the chops to be a 40+ goal player year over year. I don't see that out of Cammalleri. He is a 40 goal guy on the very top end.
However, I think Kessel is a one trick pony. He doesn't do much other than scoring goals and he needs help to do that well. I think Cammalleri is a better all around hockey player who can score goals.
So, for the 5-7 fewer goals per season I would suggest Cammalleri will produce compared to Kessel, he brings so much more to the game.
I take Cammalleri, but not based on goal scoring. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 15:41:48
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I take Kessel for all of the reasons Beans outlined, stressing the fact that he is younger and has perhaps higher end potential not yet reached.
But it's real close for me.
As an aside, nuxfan - reportedly Cammaleri actually came to Toronto for a face to face with Burke . . . but he was just asking for too much, in his opinion. And I think, in the end, that showed great restraint, especially for a young player of very good quality.
I don't fault Burke there for smart cap management.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 15:51:05
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I take Kessel for all of the reasons Beans outlined, stressing the fact that he is younger and has perhaps higher end potential not yet reached.
But it's real close for me.
As an aside, nuxfan - reportedly Cammaleri actually came to Toronto for a face to face with Burke . . . but he was just asking for too much, in his opinion. And I think, in the end, that showed great restraint, especially for a young player of very good quality.
I don't fault Burke there for smart cap management.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Cammalleri at 6 million for 6 years and keeping your 2 first round picks, i deffinetly would take that over Kessel,, it;'s not like Cammy has a 8 million $ contract ,, I would argue Cammy is better than Kessel and to have Cammy with Tyler Seguin and this years lottery pick oh hell yeah i would take that over Kessel,
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 16:02:00
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quote:
Cammalleri at 6 million for 6 years and keeping your 2 first round picks, i deffinetly would take that over Kessel,, it;'s not like Cammy has a 8 million $ contract ,, I would argue Cammy is better than Kessel and to have Cammy with Tyler Seguin and this years lottery pick oh hell yeah i would take that over Kessel,
exactly. Its great that Burke showed "great restraint" in not signing Cammy to a deal, but its a shame that he then threw all that restraint away by mortgaging the immediate future to acquire Kessel. He could have had a very similar player for free - one that wanted to be there no less.
If he could go back in time, I have no doubt that he'd sign Cammy and keep his picks. Cammy + Seguin in Toronto would look pretty good right now. As would having a first round pick in 2011. |
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Guest9052
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Posted - 12/20/2010 : 08:09:34
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I think Kessel has great potential, and if we can sign a top forward to play with him he'd be even better.
That being said, at least Cammalleri isn't afraid to throw a bodycheck. I was confused as hell when Burke didn't sign him. I'd trade Versteeg and Kessel for someone who isn't afraid of contact.
However, What good is a guy like Cammy all by himself?? Most of the Leafs will mature at the same time as Kessel does.
T-RAV |
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Guest9052
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Posted - 12/20/2010 : 08:10:49
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it would be nice to still have our picks tho
T-RAV |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 08:22:15
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The question isn't about the particular situation that happened in the Kessel trade, or the Cammalleri signing that wasn't for the Leafs.
The question is just about the two players, straight up, for the salaries that they now make.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 08:34:06
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In this alternate universe that has Burke signing Cammalerri instead of trading Kessel probably would have seen the Leafs finish like 24th, out of the lottery and the leafs dont end up with Seguin anyways.
Id give the offensive edge to Kessel, he has to potential to score more goals and put up bigger point totals, but he has 0 help in toronto right now. the biggesy folly of the kessel trade was the fact that there wasnt anyone there to play with him.
Cammalerri is a more well rounded player, more willing to muck it up and work along the walls. He also has a killer shot and skates just as well as Kessel. Being a little older than kessel he has more experience which helps his cause.
If the question is, who do you want on your team right now? Its Cammalerri, if its about building a young team to grow in the future, its Kessel.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Guest4899
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Posted - 12/20/2010 : 08:41:30
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I like this poll. These two players have always reminded me of one another for some reason, so I think it's a fair comparison.
The reason I'm giving the nod to Cammalleri, is because of the level of dedication and intensity he brings to the game. He is one of the hardest working players in the entire league, and it's evident that he takes his performance - as well as his team's performance - very seriously. He's the type of player who goes to the gym in the off season, consults with team physicians and trainers, watches hours of game tapes to improve.
Furthermore, it's very clear that Cammalleri is there to win. At 6 mil a year, you know that you are getting a win demon; a force that will make an honest and hard-working effort to make the team win, to earn his salary.
I'm not saying that kessel isn't all of those things also - just that Cammalleri is of a special breed of dedicated winners.
Cammalleri in the playoffs last year was a force. I'd rather have that type of clutch player on my team any day. |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 09:33:16
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On paper this may appear to be close however; on the ice their is no comparison. Cammelari will always supersede Kessel. 3yrs ago, now or 10 yrs from now Cammelari will always be the player who gives you a much better chance to win.
Kessel is a Ovechkin type player - give me the puck and let me go then when i lose it because i only have one move (Ron Wilson called him out on it) then everyone else can play 5 on 4 so i can save some energy to make another rush where i will shoot from anywhere. I do believe he will score more goals then Cammelari but he will never be a 1/3rd the player Cammelari is.
The only reason their goal numbers are comparable is because Cammerlari only takes quality shots and will give up a shot if it means a higher percentage shot for his teammates. Also, the linemates excuse is a tiresome excuse a goal scorer should score regardless of their linemate that is what seperates them from everone else. Last time i checked Eric Staal, Crosby, Nash & Iginla all have scoring titles and i do not recall them having great linemates when they accomplished the feat.
Cammelari can play D on a powerplay because he is responsible, could play the penalty kill but the habs have 7 other guys who are dominant on the pk thus why they are number 1 in the league, can be relied on in his defensive zone and will always make the right play in the offensive zone.
So, what we are saying is that a one trick pony is compared to a overall solid player. NO CHANCE IN HELL!
Also, to anyone who thinks if Burke could go back and pick Cammelari over Kessel he would you need to check the facts before making that comment. Cammelari was coming off his best season ever & Kessel was returning from testicular cancer and burke still passed up on Cammelari for lets not BS "AN AMERICAN" if you asked brian burke three players he could start a team around he would probably tell you, Ryan Miller, Ryan Kessler & Zack Parise you catching the theme here? If your not american your not his type of player, who else would give Cough it up Komasarek so much money after the guy was a lame duck even while playing with Andre Markov when he was healthy and arguably a top 6 d in the entire league. If you think my American comment is obsurd kindly check what nationality Jerry D'amigo is who was the leafs pick last yr and i think the leafs drafted a kid out of LA this yr or what nationality Bobby Ryan and Ryan Kesler are. I am sure if i looked into this farther i could find a plethora of other american's he drafted over the yrs. Not to say he will not pick up a canadian or draft one howver; ultimately if he has the oppurtunity he wants an american first it is simply the american way.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 12:14:25
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Would anyone disagree that Kessler & Cammalleri would be a better comparison?
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 12:25:06
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quote:
Last time i checked Eric Staal, Crosby, Nash & Iginla all have scoring titles and i do not recall them having great linemates when they accomplished the feat.
Eric Staal has never won a scoring title. Also, in their best years, all of the players above had someone on their line with whom they had chemistry and could be productive with. You don't win scoring titles or get significant points without having productive linemates.
Which is really the problem for Kessel. His most productive year to date was his last year in BOS, where he had Savard on his line. When he went to TOR, many wondered how he'd do without a great centre feeding him the puck or quality linemates to play with - now we know.
quote:
Would anyone disagree that Kessler & Cammalleri would be a better comparison?
Ryan Kesler? I would disagree with that, they are very dis-similar players that have different strengths and weaknesses. Kesler is a playmaking centre with exceptional defensive skills that quarterbacks the PK and plays against checking lines. Cammarelli is a pure sniper that plays on MTL's first line and is paid to score bunches of goals. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 12/20/2010 12:25:47 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 12:37:03
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Ya, I would disagree if we are comparing player types. Cammalleri and Kessel are very much that smallish, speedy, primarily goal scoring/offensive type player. Not unlike Parise, Ryan, St. Louis, et al. Kesler, on the other hand, the mid to larger sized 2 way centre with offensive talent. Not until thge Datsuyk, Koivu, Mike Richards, et al.
Two very different types of players. Kessel and Cammalleri fit similar molds. |
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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
374 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 12:48:51
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jagr won many titles with the pen's and cap's without really any other real talent on his lines.
the teams he was on also finshed last and went on to colect some really good draft picks aswell. |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 14:00:34
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My bad nuxfan i was thinking Staal was with the other two the yr they one the scoring race but it was St. Louis. Regardless staal is still a better goal scorer then kessel and has never had solid linemates & Nash & Iginla had who with them the yr they one? i'm sure Clb was still a bottom 5 team.
Jagr played with Kovalev & Straka, Robert Lang and a couple other guys in pitt when he dominated the league so i can hardly agree that he had know one.
Beans & Nuxfan normally i am in agreement with your view points and do acknowledge how you came your decision and can agree that they all have their differences but camm & kessler r much more comparable then Camm & Kessle. Kessle is like a Ovechkin or Kovalchuk (less abilitiy) but all are goal scorers who have no defensive upside and can go on lenghty stretches wear they disappear. If you are only comparing scoring then ya Cammaleri is comparable but on an overall basis Kessel is nothing close to Cammaleri.
Kessler is a Defensive specialist with offensive upside and an all around solid player. Play him with Raymond & Burrows and he to would be a 40/40 guy. Overall Kessler is a better player then Cammelari but both are comparable
Cammaleri is a scoring specialist with playing making abilities Thus the 40/40 yr in Calgary and can be accountable in his defensive zone and to play d on powerplay
Kessel transfer CO2 into H20 and lally gags around the ice and he barely does that well at times. When you go on streaks of 6 & 7 games without a goal and the only thing you really do well is score then there is an issue.
Again for simply goal scoring ya kessel and cammelarri can be compared but the comparison stops there.
Kesler & Cammelari both able to be 40 40 guys, both guys you would trust on the ice with a one goal lead or one goal down in the closing moments and both have defensive upside (Kessler more dynamic defensively)
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 14:44:18
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
If he could go back in time, I have no doubt that he'd sign Cammy and keep his picks. Cammy + Seguin in Toronto would look pretty good right now. As would having a first round pick in 2011.
Couldn't agree more, however, HE'D never admit that  .
I'd prob take Cammalleri but the 5 years separating the two of them is hard to give up. I konw 28 isn't old, but depending on the team i was in chargeo of, i'd have to consider Kessel! If i was in a rebuild, he'd prob be the better choice, however, if i were already a playoff team, Cammalleri, hands down, would be the guy i'd pick. |
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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
374 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 14:53:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
Jagr played with Kovalev & Straka, Robert Lang and a couple other guys in pitt when he dominated the league so i can hardly agree that he had know one.
Still, who'd he have in washington? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 15:57:21
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Firstly, regarding Jagr. You are speaking of not only of the best offensive players of his generation, he is also one of the most prolific offensive players in history. Putting Jagr with anyone in the league today not named Sidney or Alex is a joke.
Secondly, Mario you seem to be missing the point completely. I would not compare Kesler and Cammalleri or Kesler and Kessel as they are very different players. Is Cammalleri or Kessel their teams #1 PK player?? Nope. Are they their teams best defensive forwards?? Nope. Are they both counted on for offense?? Yep. Are they both sniper type goal scorers?? Yep. Are the both on the smaller/speedier side?? Yep.
As stated, Kesler's peers are Getzlaf, Datsuyk(maybe not size wise), and Mike Richards. Kessel/Cammalleri's peers are Bobby Ryan, Parise, etc.
Compare like players. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 16:24:31
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Does anyone think Kessel can become a 40 assist player? Cammalleri sets up dangerous scoring chances on a regulard basis and with a better finisher on his line in montreal 40 assist are very possible on a yearly basis for him. Offensivly Kessel sur puts up the same kind of goal numbers as Cammy but he has yet to come anywhere near Cammy's assist numbers.
there is talk that if at the deadline Iginla is to be mad available the habs are going to go after him hard to play with Plekanec and Cammallleri, i would argue a line of Plekanec Iginla Cammalleri could become one of the more dominant first lines in the league at both end of the rink, i think iginla would benifit from having the young speed of Cammy and Plekanec not to mention Cammalleri and Iginla have excellent chemistry and Plekanec is the kind of center that makes everyone around him better i could see all three of these guys with 30 40 seasons playing together.
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 18:30:49
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I don't know if Kessel could be a 40 assist guy. He's a shoot first, shoot often, shoot every time kind of player. Secondly, he does not have the support in a secondary scoring option to produce. I don't see 40 assists. Not in the near future anyways.
As far as Iginla goes, firstly it would mean Gomez going the other way and I don't see Calgary taking that deal. Sutter is also the 2nd most stubborn GM in the NHL behind Burke and does not see the ship sinking. However,if he does see the ship sinking and moves Iginla, it will be for youth with talent and/or picks. As Plekanec is hitting his prime, I would assume that would be the player going to Calgary. For that matter, Montreal would not give up Plekanec in his prime for Iginla in his twilight.
It's just not a good fit. But that line would be sickly disgusting. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 19:41:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I don't know if Kessel could be a 40 assist guy. He's a shoot first, shoot often, shoot every time kind of player. Secondly, he does not have the support in a secondary scoring option to produce. I don't see 40 assists. Not in the near future anyways.
As far as Iginla goes, firstly it would mean Gomez going the other way and I don't see Calgary taking that deal. Sutter is also the 2nd most stubborn GM in the NHL behind Burke and does not see the ship sinking. However,if he does see the ship sinking and moves Iginla, it will be for youth with talent and/or picks. As Plekanec is hitting his prime, I would assume that would be the player going to Calgary. For that matter, Montreal would not give up Plekanec in his prime for Iginla in his twilight.
It's just not a good fit. But that line would be sickly disgusting.
why would Gomez be going the other way? the habs hav the cap space for Iginla's salary don't forget Markov's 6 mil is off the books for the rest of the year, the habs would probably offer something lke Andrei Kostitsyn and 1rt round amd second rounder. Iginla is a winger the habs would not want to give up a center for him, the idea is to complete the habs top six not create a new whole! Kostitsyn is 25 and has scored 20 plus goals the last few years he has potential he has not been reaching so far in his career ,, to me the idea would to have the habs top six looking like this:
Plekanec Cammalleri Iginla
Gomez Gionta Pacirotty
That would imo take the habs from just a playoff team to a cup contender
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Edited by - Pasty7 on 12/20/2010 19:46:47 |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 22:18:10
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Slightly off topic, but I don't think Iginla is moving for Kotstitsyn and a first and second rounder from MTL - CGY would get better offers than that, there would be several suitors if he became available. I'm not sure what MTL could offer that would interest CGY for Iginla (Subban? But they don't really need defensemen), other than players that MTL wants to keep to play with Iginla. I don't think they're good dance partners.
I don't think Kessel will become a big assist person, its not in his nature, as others have pointed out he's paid to be a sniper. He needs someone getting assists from him, not the other way around. Cammarelli, on the other hand, does get a fair number of assists. I chalk some of that up to Cammy playing with a much more talented group in MTL than Kessel does in TOR. But even in BOS, Kessel was showing signs of becoming a pure sniper.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 22:35:18
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
Slightly off topic, but I don't think Iginla is moving for Kotstitsyn and a first and second rounder from MTL - CGY would get better offers than that, there would be several suitors if he became available. I'm not sure what MTL could offer that would interest CGY for Iginla (Subban? But they don't really need defensemen), other than players that MTL wants to keep to play with Iginla. I don't think they're good dance partners.
I don't think Kessel will become a big assist person, its not in his nature, as others have pointed out he's paid to be a sniper. He needs someone getting assists from him, not the other way around. Cammarelli, on the other hand, does get a fair number of assists. I chalk some of that up to Cammy playing with a much more talented group in MTL than Kessel does in TOR. But even in BOS, Kessel was showing signs of becoming a pure sniper.
You're right MTL would have to give more but they have a few blue chip prospects and all their draft picks they can put together as good a package as anyone and i am willling to bet if Iginla is made available Montreal will work very hard to put together a package the Sutters will want
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 16:32:15
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I agree that there'd be better offers than the proposed Mtl one but how much better than a decent roster player with some pretty good talent, albeit an underachiever (Kostitsyn), a first rounder and a second rounder?? Maybe something similar from a team whose 1st rounder might be a little better, but those teams prob aren't in the market for Iggy?
It will def be interesting to see what sort of offers the Flames get for him if in fact they do decide to shop him? |
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Topic |
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Kessel Vs. Cammalleri 
