| Author |
 Topic  |
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
 Posted - 01/05/2011 : 09:04:40
|
Poll Question:
Alexander the Great has been pretty ordinary this year, and is pace for a whopping 30 or so goals at this point in the season. Why?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
|
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 09:43:39
|
| I voted "just an off year / goals not going in". He still seems to be taking a ton of shots. I know he's been blamed in the past about taking bad shots or shots from anywhere, maybe these just aren't going in anymore? |
 |
|
|
HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 09:45:44
|
A warrior without a beard is like an extra value meal without the fries.
Dude is the the NHL equivalent of Samson, the fuz was his strength!
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
|
|
|
Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 12:01:11
|
I expect to get some grief for this but so be it. Oveckin is a predictable one way player that teams have learned to play against and until he is willing to change his game this decline in goals will be an on going trend.
When the lame 8 broke into the league the majority of dmen would back off of ovechkin for fear he would skate past them but the habs d showed everyone last yr that if you step up and attack him forcing him to make the extra move then your forward coming back will strip him and go the other way. Not to forget ovechkin has scored a healthy portion of his goals waiting for the d to back off and open their legs where he would then release a frozen rope past an unsuspecting goalie.
The guy fires the puck from everywhere one of the many reasons I dislike him but please nobody vote that he is laying off trying to be a team player. This afterall is the same guy that disputed with malkin in russia cuz he was stealing some of his thunder. The same & only guy who got his skates personalized at the olympics so he stood out a little more. I'm sure someone will make the arguement that he was promoting sochi 2014 but if it was such a necessary promo then why didn't every russian participant in the olympics do it? This is also the same guy who classesly acted like a baffoon as he fired the puck into an open net against Canada in the world jrs and we all know what happened to him the following yr. In past yrs he has shown a me first attitude and if losing to pitt in 7 two yrs ago didn't change his mindset then i don't see anything really.
He is very talented cannot take that away from him but I can think of atleast 10 to 15 other guys i'd sooner start my franchise around especially if i wanted to win championships. From a business standpoint he would be a top 3 guy simply because he puts buts in the seat and his jersey sells.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
|
|
|
Guest4906
( )
|
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 13:02:59
|
Bure, Matts Saffin, Ovechkin ........... they're all Russians like Putin ...... I'm the kingpin and I can do anything and am immune to consequences ...... only thing is Putin's the only one with the real power ....... if Putin said go, straighten-up and fly right these boys probably would, straight out and out nationalism .... but otherwise their new found freedom clouds their ability, and let's them just party and not just get to it like our good old Canadian and Swedish boys ..............  |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 13:42:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4906
Bure, Matts Saffin, Ovechkin ........... they're all Russians like Putin ...... I'm the kingpin and I can do anything and am immune to consequences ...... only thing is Putin's the only one with the real power ....... if Putin said go, straighten-up and fly right these boys probably would, straight out and out nationalism .... but otherwise their new found freedom clouds their ability, and let's them just party and not just get to it like our good old Canadian and Swedish boys ..............
WTF???
Clearly i missed something??? |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 20:21:52
|
Just a thought ...but would anyone agree that the way Ovie. has been playing the game, come playoff time he is burned out ??
I just keep wondering if he is trying to save more for the playoffs this year. Anyway time will tell...like i said, just a thought. |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 22:04:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Just a thought ...but would anyone agree that the way Ovie. has been playing the game, come playoff time he is burned out ??
I just keep wondering if he is trying to save more for the playoffs this year. Anyway time will tell...like i said, just a thought.
Duke, i haven't seen him play a ton this year but i do notice he's still leading the league in shots so has his game really changed much or are the pucks just not going in? Then again, he's not exactly running away with the shot total as he has in the past? Dunno, but i don't think he's been burnt out so much in the past really. I saw him play a hot goalie last year and a team who's coach got them to play a system that proved successful vs he and the Caps.
|
|
|
|
polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 22:42:41
|
"Statistics don't lie, those who interpret them do."
Here's some stats about Ovie. Interpret them how you like:
GP G A +/- Shots
41 14 28 42 188 Year:10/11
71 50 59 45 368 Year:09/10
Last year, Ovie had an overall PPG of 1.54, this year he's at 1.02PPG.
If he stays at this pace, he's on track for about 28G, 56A, and about 376 shots.
All the above stats seem to be very similar to each other except for one: GOALS!
My plan was to look at the stats and try to disprove Mario66 with statistics, saying, look, he's got more assists, he's has less shots, but no, the stats show eerily similar number of assists and shots, even his plus/minus is similar currently, except for goals.
It seems to me that it is true, Ovie is unchanging in his method of scoring as Mario66 noted above(I believe CBC or NBC talked about this during the winter classic).
No "teamplayer."
No "more passing."
No "he's saving it for the playoffs."
Nothing wrong with Ovechkin, he's just has to follow coach's advice. |
Edited by - polishexpress on 01/05/2011 22:44:49 |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2011 : 10:35:36
|
All these stats make sense yes, but no-one is mentioning the way he is playing ( his playing style ...the hitting ). I don`t see Ovie. abusing his body as in the past. This guy was hitting like a truck, twisting and turning his body while doing so, this had to be very hard on his system....maybe this style led to more goals for him.
Thats what i was refering to before, this is a gruelling style of play which takes its toll on your body after a long season. Was just wondering to myself if maybe he is preserving some extra energy for a playoff run.......like i said, just a thought. |
|
|
|
polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2011 : 10:52:45
|
Here are some so-called "real-time" stats from NHL.com about Ovie's hitting:
So far this year: 41GP, 128hits, 8 blocked shots
Last year: 72GP 185hits, 20 blocked shots
If you were to assume Ovie maintains the same pace of hitting and blocking shots, then he's on target for 256hits, and 16 blocked shots.
If that happens, there goes your theory of "preserving extra energy" Duke. |
|
|
|
Go_Habs_Go
Rookie
157 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2011 : 11:18:42
|
I think all arguments previously said are valuable concerning the subject...but we forgot one thing : NICKLAS BACKSTROM.
As said...Ovechkin isn't scoring as much as expected eventhough he has a lot of shots. Maybe shots are just not going in, but what about the pass before the shot. Backstrom is arguably the best playmaker of the nhl, and he now has 37 pts in 41 games (26 assists)...that's not him.
What are your thoughts on this ?
"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet |
|
|
|
Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2011 : 11:45:44
|
I would like to agree with you but i can't. As i have said before Nash & Staal over the yrs have proven not quite to ovechkins level that they can still shine without a big time line mate. Also, I may be wrong but Oveckin did alot of the damage on his own his first yr in the league? Then their is Crosby who plays with as a lot of the guys on here like to call them "pylons" (Kunitz i must add is only a goal behing ovi  ) yet he is still tearing it up. I never blame the passer cuz it is the responsibility of a goal scorer to finish. Do not get me wrong a good pass is critical but how often do we see a set up guy deliver a beautiful feed that the goal scorer boaches. The fact that ovechkin plays with two guys like backstrom & Semin on a nightly basis and still leads the league in shots furthers my arguement that he is a me first player that the league is starting to figure out. Any of the pylon haters wanna imagine how many points crosby would have at this point if he played on the same line with backstrom & semin evernight?
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
|
|
|
Go_Habs_Go
Rookie
157 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2011 : 12:01:35
|
Semin is not on the same line as Backstrom and Ovechkin, not on a nightly basis anyways.
Backstrom and Ovechkin are both having a weak season for the moment, who is the reason why the other is not producing ? The playmaker or the scorer ? I think there's a strong correlation between these two players, and something is going wrong. If one goes bad, the other wont go better. But i dont know where their production problem begins
"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 06:15:00
|
For starters, for much of the first third of the year (before the Caps went on their losing streak), I think Ovechkin did play mostly with Semin. And Semin was super hot to start the year, and was scoring at Ovechkin pace.
And yeah, Backstrom has been slightly below his usual pace . . . which may or not be the chicken or the egg in relation to Ovechkin's production.
But I am most intrigued by some of the comments about Ovechkin being too one dimensional in terms of style, and that defences have figured him out, hence, less goals. But here's my question to the people saying Ovechkin is too much of a one-man-show guy, and easy to stop:
How come then he IS getting all those shots off? How come, if Ovechkin is so selfish, that he is something like 5th or 6th in hits?
Because to me, it's a more complicated story . . . and one involving the goalies more, I think, and the fact that goal scoring is a fickle thing. My theory is that goalies have learned better what his shooting tendencies are, and that it's just one of those years where the puck isn't going in for him a bit.
That's all. Other than goals, I see him playing at the same, elite level . . . always dangerous on the rush, shooting from everywhere, hitting anything that move.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 08:17:27
|
Watching TSN last night and the ticker said that Ovechkin has received recent cortison shots to an undisclosed area and is listed day to day.
If he has been hampered by a lingering injury that would make sense for his drop in production. Expecially as he is trending for the same number of shots and 1/2 the goals compared to last year.
Who knows?? Maybe it's a wrist or an elbow and it taking some speed and accuracy off his shots???
Something wrong. A great player does not go from 50+ goals a year for 5 years to less than 30.
I say injury is a big part but I also agree with Slozo in that goalies might have sharpened. Maybe they are learning his tendancies(like using the defender as a screen of the rush). Specifically, those guys who have played against him 30ish times like Lundqvist, Fleury, Miller, et al. |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 16:57:26
|
Mario66 is correct. They've figured out how to defend him and I don't believe he has the ability to change the way he plays.
He may be getting the same number of shots away but they won't be getting away cleanly anymore and there is the difference. He's forced to rush getting the shot off or is late. |
|
|
|
Guest2160
( )
|
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 23:34:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Watching TSN last night and the ticker said that Ovechkin has received recent cortison shots to an undisclosed area and is listed day to day.
If he has been hampered by a lingering injury that would make sense for his drop in production. Expecially as he is trending for the same number of shots and 1/2 the goals compared to last year.
Who knows?? Maybe it's a wrist or an elbow and it taking some speed and accuracy off his shots???
Something wrong. A great player does not go from 50+ goals a year for 5 years to less than 30.
I say injury is a big part but I also agree with Slozo in that goalies might have sharpened. Maybe they are learning his tendancies(like using the defender as a screen of the rush). Specifically, those guys who have played against him 30ish times like Lundqvist, Fleury, Miller, et al.
Forgot about Jonathan Cheechoo  |
|
|
|
KariyaSelanne
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
297 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 23:35:23
|
| Sorry, that was me ^ |
|
|
|
Go_Habs_Go
Rookie
157 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2011 : 00:39:23
|
hahah, I almost forgot about Jonathan Chechoo. But he only had one 50+ goals season, the rest of his nhl career is average. What happened to that dude? to much money? drugs? women?
(Ovechkin had four 50+ goals seasons and one of 46...i dont think beans forgot about Chechoo lol)
"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet |
|
|
|
Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2011 : 10:03:46
|
How come then he IS getting all those shots off? How come, if Ovechkin is so selfish, that he is something like 5th or 6th in hits?
Because to me, it's a more complicated story . . . and one involving the goalies more, I think, and the fact that goal scoring is a fickle thing. My theory is that goalies have learned better what his shooting tendencies are, and that it's just one of those years where the puck isn't going in for him a bit.
That's all. Other than goals, I see him playing at the same, elite level . . . always dangerous on the rush, shooting from everywhere, hitting anything that move.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Slozo getting shots off is not a complicated task nor should it be congratulated and what about hitting determines if a player is a diversified? Are Sean Avery & Carcillo diversifed players because they to can shoot the puck and hit people? No they are useless instigators who take away from talented players who are stuck in the minors because we have determined that less talented goons like the two above & neil, cooke & colton orr have a purpose and a place in the league.
If you need reassurance on how ovechkin is a predicatible one way player and not a multifaceted player such as Datsuyk, Zetterberg crosby etc then i will gladly prove it to you. Ovechkin like Phil Kessel is most notibly known for his scoring. As Ron Wilson of your beloved leafs indictacted earlier this season Kessel has become predictable with his same old moves. Well Ovechkin is much the same. Teams have learnt that the more you back off of him the more harm you are doing to your goalie as ovechkin has the speed and shot to use the screening d and catch the goalie off guard. Montreal made the adjustment in the playoffs and he did nothing the last four games, and now teams are doing it game in and game out as they would rather someone other then ovechkin beat them.
How you can think ovechkin is anything but one dimensional is beyond me. Do you ever see him defend in his own zone (NO), do you ever see him hustle back if he is stripped of the puck (NO), if given the oppurtunity good or not to shot or pass he will shoot 85 - 90% of the time, is he solid in any area but goal scoring and throwing around his body(NO) he gets most of his assists merely because of the talent he plays with on the pp or off of shot deflections / rebounds. Face it ovechkin is nothing more then a dynamic goal scorer which has been slightly minimized because after 5 yrs of tearing them a new A**whole the coaches and players across the league have decided to take him out of the equation and force him to play some sort of D which he has no desire to do.
Only in leaf nation is the ability to shoot and hit make you multifacided. In the rest of the league you have to be reliable and consistent in all three zones to not be called one dimensional
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
|
|
|
Guest4535
( )
|
Posted - 01/08/2011 : 14:50:22
|
| once he gets traded he will be back to normal. Teams would trade a left nut for him, and wsh would love to win a championship. Ovi will mature like how Crosby matured. |
|
|
|
polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2011 : 15:52:31
|
After hearing about the supposed cortisone shots Ovie had received, and reading Beans' comment, Ovie's stats make more sense than before.
One thing no one can take away from Ovie is that he is a fierce competitor that always give is all.
There is no doubt that if he had some minor health issue, ie a slight strain, pull etc. that he could play that would go unnoticed by regular viewers and opponents, he would definitely keep it that way.
Still, cortisone shot or not, Ovie does need to diversify his style more. His current physical style will take a toll on his health. If he doesn't adapt, at least slightly, then he will progressively become less and less effective as teams,coaches,goalies etc adapt, and as his body wears down. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2011 : 13:29:33
|
Mario 66 - you lost me at "getting shots off is not a complicated task.
Didn't read past that, as you lost all credibility after a stupid remark like that.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2011 : 13:37:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Mario 66 - you lost me at "getting shots off is not a complicated task.
Didn't read past that, as you lost all credibility after a stupid remark like that.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
I kept reading. It didn't really get any better.
Seriously, what was the point of that??? It's 2 minutes of my life I will never get back and I really wish I could. |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2011 : 16:39:27
|
Ovie still has the numbers for total hits but thats not saying they are of the aggressive, wreckless kind he was dishing out before.
I`ve watched Washington play 5 or 6 games this year and Ovie`s style of play is nowhere near as moron aggressive as he was. This guy really beat himself up every night he played ( his first couple years in the league )...this had to stop or he would have a short career. |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 00:17:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Mario 66 - you lost me at "getting shots off is not a complicated task.
Didn't read past that, as you lost all credibility after a stupid remark like that.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
I kept reading. It didn't really get any better.
Seriously, what was the point of that??? It's 2 minutes of my life I will never get back and I really wish I could.
It actually made a lot of sense, maybe none to you because you had already decided to disagree. I don't agree but the logic of Ovie becoming predictable is as viable as a hidden injury and his opinion is well thought out and well explained which is what most of us look for in a forum. It's no fun to argue with someone who cannot accept facts. For example that person a while back that tried to say Thornton hit Perron's neck and therefore it was not a head shot.
In short if you don't agree come up with something other than "I want the last 2 minutes of my life back" or "I stopped reading after the first sentence" maybe an argument that shows how silly Mario's statement is or if it’s that ridiculous (which it is not) don't say anything if you can't say anything intelligent ridiculing a valued members comment like that especially from two valued senior members of the forum is just going to discourage people from participating on this forum.
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
|
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 05:25:36
|
Ok Pasty, you asked for it
Getting off shots in the NHL these days IS VERY DIFFICULT. The best players in the world might get off 3, 5, maybe even 7 or 8 on an exceptional night.
Gone are the days off even having a hope in hell of scoring by letting loose before the opposition's blue line, so you can be safe in assuming that a good 98, 99% of these shots by ALL players are within the blue line, and are at worst a chance at a rebound. Every shot, no matter how bad, is a scoring chance to some degree.
If it was even marginally close to how Mario 66 put it, why aren't those third and fourth liners getting off 5, 6 shots a game on average? Wouldn't they get more goals?
A look at the leaderboard for Shots on Goal shows a who's who of goal scorers and snipers, with this year's addition being the defenceman Byfuglien who has been this year's Mike Green scoring-wise, on pace for close to a 30 goal season.
As a stat, it is not useless at all . . . it indicates that the player got a great many chances, and had the puck numerous times on the rush in the offensive zone. For some, often defencemen, there is a higher shot total and lower goal total than should be because of the nature of the shot and offensive system perhaps - these are probably more shots from the point, etc that are looking more for a screen, tip in or rebound. With Washington's great goal production and many scoring chances, one must take all that into account when looking at Ovechkin's 194 shots on goal versus his measly (for him) 15 goals.
Byfuglien is second at 183 SOG, 16 goals (in 4 more games played). Incredible for a defenceman, it is a Norris trophy candidate year for big Buff . . . and no one will argue his value to the team by saying he takes too many shots.
Patrick Sharp is thirs at 177 SOG, and has 25 goals.
Zetterberg has 176 SOG, only 15 goals . . . similar to Ovie, he is on a very good winning team, has lots of shots and they just aren't going in for him as much as they should - is anyone saying what a selfish player Zetterberg is?!?
Carter - 171 SOG, 16 goals.
Kessel - 169 SOG, 17 goals.
Gionta - 167 SOG, 15 goals.
Nash - 166 SOG, 20 goals.
Malkin - 164 SOG, 15 goals. The first second liner in this category, and we all know how it works in Pittsburgh so saying that is somewhat meaningless.
Ryan - 163 SOG, 18 goals.
B.Richards - 162 SOG, 18 goals.
Crosby - 161 SOG, 32 goals.
Stamkos - 156 SOG, 31 goals.
To summarise, looking at this list should tell you something - these guys have the puck a lot; they get the majority of chances on their team; they create a lot of offense, to varying degrees. For some, the puck is going in more than others, and that may be due to more quality chances, better shooting, playing style, and a myriad of other factors. Regardless, these are all arguably impact players (I know someone will chime in on this remark against Kessel and perhaps Gionta, but so be it).
So no, as you can see, not one of the players in the top twenty in SOG is a third liner. or someone of lower skill level . . . these are all first line guys (yes, Malkin is 1st line in theory), or in Buff's case the top scoring d-man.
Getting off a simple shot on goal is not, in fact, that simple. It requires a lot of skill.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 07:00:54
|
Look at the historic outlook on shots on goal and the outcome is the same. There are no pluggers on the list regardless of single seasons or career numbers.
When you look at single season leaders, the names of Gretzky, Orr, Esposito, Hull, Bure, Dionne, the other Hull, Jagr. It's a list of HOFer's.
When you look at career totals you will see a very similar list.
It's no fluke that great players get more shots because they can. They are better players.
Now, I have been a pretty big proponent of Ovechkin taking too many shots and that still holds true. I still think he scores as many goals taking smarter shots and his team wins more, but I digress. It takes talent and skill it takes for a player to be able to take that many shots.
As Slozo said, if it was easy, everyone could do it and would be doing it. Even the best of the best are getting 3-4 shots a game on average. That Ovechkin has averaged 5.5 shots over his career is sick. |
|
|
|
HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 10:19:25
|
Guys seriously, all kidding aside. If my face fuzz was half as epic as Ovie's, even I could win a Rocket Richard Trophy or two.
Losing the patchy, fuzzy goodness has killed the beast!
The only other possible explanation is: Maybe he's having an off-year.
But we all know that the answer is probably stuffed in someone's "Ovie Hair" Pillow, which they bought for $100,00.00 USD on eBay.
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
|
|
|
Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 11:41:37
|
Thanks Patsy but its ok the statesments by Beans & Slozo just further indicates that even though they clearly have a love respect and incredible knowledge of the game. IT STOPS AT THAT! They obviously never played at a high level or completely sucked if they think the task of shooting the puck is difficult. An i am sorry if either of you truly believe that Ovechkin is a diversified player then you need to lay off the fumes that your teams are enhaling at the bottom of the league
Lets be real if you can skate then you can shoot the puck it takes a simple flick of the rest. These are the two essential basics of the game of hockey. If your third liners could not shoot then they would never make it to the league such DB's. Check out the jr careers of Eric Fehr, Patrick O'Sullivan, Pouliot and alot of other third liners and you will see guys who put up 40 - 50 plus goal seasons. Clearly in your two minutes of life wasting you decided to change the words that i wrote. Never once did i indicate that it was easy to score in the nhl or at any level it takes superior skill and a bit of good fortune. But any schmuck who can skate if given 2 seconds of open ice can register a shot on goal. Ovechkin just does it at an uneccesary rate. Hmm shooting doesnt sound so difficult after all eh rocket scientists?
In every sport players have a job, some are goal scorers or home run hitters, other grinders who do the dirty work for the good of the team. You think Detroit would have ever one those cups without the likes of Draper, Maltby, McCarty or Holmstrom to protect Yzerman & Federov from guys like Claude Lemieux and make the lives of other teams a living hell.
While reading your classless responses i took the time to acknowledge what you where saying and see how lost the two of you truly are. "NO where on the long list of shot totals do you ever see a third or fourth liner" NO S**T those guys are paid to do the dirty work and grind it out and if they manage score it is a bonus to their team. Guys like Lemieux, Hull and today Bobby Ryan, Crosby, Zetterberg, Ovechkin & the vast majority of your other first and second liners in the league are paid to shoot the puck more frequently because they are seen to have a higher skill set and therefore believed to have a more frequent chance of scoring.
What bush league material where the two you thinking to actually waste your time and more importantly ours telling everyone else that first and second liners have the most shots in the league. REALLY, I WASTED YOUR TIME? CAPTIAN OBVIOUS CALLED AND HE WANTS YOU TWO TO STOP STEALING HIS IDEAS!
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 11:42:39
|
Slozo - Beans....your points are valid, its pretty obvious that great players will have the puck more and get more shots.
How can you compare a star player getting 25 minutes per game, plus 100 % first powerplay unit....to a .....3rd line grinder getting 12-14 minutes per game, with ZERO % power-play time, whose primary job is to CHECK the opposing teams 1st line, their job is a defensive role, this comparsion is not fair at all.
At one point you spoke about 4th line players ? What do they play 6 - 7 minutes per game, No powerplay what-so ever...don`t know how you can even make these comparisons ...
I`d like to see a stat on some of the best 3rd line players in the game...shots on goal in a 5 on 5 situation....compared to shots on goal by some first line players without their powerplay shots on goal. I bet it would be interesting to see. |
|
|
|
Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 12:09:08
|
If there was no validity in what i had said then i would completely respect your tirades Beans & Slozo. However, considering you vaildated your points by showing how many shots first and second liners whom Duke indicated recieve most of the playing time clearly shows their could not have been many wholes in what i had said. Not to mention Beans when i posted the pole about whether or not ovechkin is the most prolific scorer in the league you made the same arguement as i did in the thread about the fact that he takes too many shots. If anything Ovechkin is an indication of how easy it is to get a shot off in the nhl where as your other snipers of the past and today show you that their is a time and a place to shoot that will give them the highest % of scoring based upon their belief in their abilities. Not to mention willus and patsy to of your other long standing members found validity in what was said whether they neccessarily agreed or not. If your going to argue a point atleast do it like adults and with some class. No need to respond with remarks i expect from my young cousins
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
|
|
|
Guest4178
( )
|
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 12:52:59
|
I agree with Slozo and Beans that great players (in particular, goal scorers) usually take a lot of shots, and no surprise – the top goal scorers are usually at the top of the list of shot takers.
Slozo’s work on the stats is quite revealing, and to take it further, when looking at the top 40 players who have taken the most shots this NHL season, 100% of the players on this list are on pace for at least 20 goals this season. (You can disregard the five defensemen who appear in the top 40, because you have to assess defensemen differently, and as Slozo has pointed out.)
There are a number of reasons why you see these results, and ice-time is certainly a factor, as is power play time, linemates, etc.
A big reason you do not see mediocre players high in the rankings of shot-takers is because coaches would never allow a player to take a lot of shots without a reasonable rate of return. Specifically, if a player were taking 4-5 shots per game and not scoring, a coach would probably take this player aside and tell them they need to change their game.
And sorry Mario – I don't agree that "if you can skate then you can shoot the puck it takes a simple flick of the wrist." If you come into this league (like the prolific junior players mentioned), and you do not generate a high percentage of goals with your shots taken, then you are not going to make it in the NHL or you're going to be relegated to the 3rd or 4th line.
If you mean that every player who makes it to the NHL has the ability to flick the wrist and take a shot, then yes, I agree with you based on the mechanics involved. (The actual physical ability to shoot the puck.) If you’re saying that any player can amass a high number of shots, I respectively disagree. Sure – in theory, a player could take lots of shots per game, but in reality, you have to produce to be given the opportunity to do so.
You cannot be one of the top shot takers in the NHL without results (goals). In looking at Ovechkin specifically, I think his coaches are probably giving him a lot of latitude this season with his shot selection and number of shots taken. He's a proven goal scorer, and I think his coaches have some patience that he will rediscover his scoring touch, and they do not want to mess with his confidence too much. Time will tell with Ovechkin, and who knows - maybe as Beans pointed out, an injury is the reason for his dip in goal production this season? |
|
|
|
Guest0889
( )
|
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 13:27:03
|
| watch him get 50 goals |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 14:26:37
|
see the the shots I think are a mute point, the point Mario made that i think is the most interesting is has Ovie become to predictable? its a very valid and logical argument, he pointed out how the Canadians espcially Gill and Gorges had seemingly figured him out in the playoffs last year and maybe now some video coachs have brought that gameplan to their respective teams, i have no doubt he is a 50 goal guy and will be again but maybe a modification top his approach into the offensive zone is needed?
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
|
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 15:26:15
|
Is the point of the shots 'mute' or 'moot'?? Honestly, I am a little confused if maybe that was a typo.
Now, to the point at hand. Mario, if you are insinuating that I have never played hockey at a premium level you are correct. In fact, I have never played hockey period. But that has zero bearing on knowledge of the game. Ask Scott Bowman. Lou Lamoriello, or Ken Hitchcock to show you their Stanley Cup rings (they have a pile of them) and then ask any of them for a single player card.
The shooting success rate of a shot even making it on net is about 45%. So for every 10 shots a player makes, only 4-5 of them hit the net and are recorded as a shot. So it is far, far, far, far more than a player just flicking his wrist.
Why is it that only a select number of players can get 300+ shots in a season? Heck, there were only 31 players in the entire NHL last season who has 240 or more shots. That's just 3 shots a game. Only 31 players in the entire NHL can get 3 shots a game.
Seems like a little more than a flick of the wrist no???
Ovechkin gets nearly double that. Is that a skill?? Absolutely.
Now, I have always said that Ovechkin could be as productive taking fewer shots, but that takes nothing away from Ovechkin being one of only a very small handful of players in the history of the game that have the ability to put that many shots on net. Those are actual pucks on net, not just a flick of the wrist.
Finally, I have to apologize to you Mario. In the heat of this argument I did say some things that were personal in nature and that is not only against the forum rules but not a very nice thing to do. Please accept my apology and the assurance it will not happen again. |
|
|
|
Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 15:34:14
|
Ya Patsy i agree and if people read what i actually wrote i said teams are tired of ovechkin tearing them new a**wholes and have changed the way they played him and he has yet to make the change. Slozo made an arguement that Ovechkin still gets shots off which I know is not a difficult task yet all these people bring it back to shots - goals ratio and about playing on the first line when i made it clear your first and second line guys are in place as they are deemed to have more talent and are given free reign to shot. I never claimed that ovechkin wasnt a great scorer but he is a me first player and since everyone is so concerned with my shots comment the fact that he fired over 550 shots on goal a couple yrs clearly indicates that if a first or second line player has the mindset to shoot from anywhere because they believe they can score and the coach will allow them then shooting is not a difficult task. Never once have i proclaimed that scoring was easy but simply shooting a puck at the net is very very easy
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
|
|
|
foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
374 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 15:40:40
|
| maybe we could get some stats up here so we can break it down and get a real opinion. |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 15:53:09
|
Pasty lets not forget that last year Halak was super - human for several weeks, i think more credit is due here ( regarding shutting down Ovie ) than to Gill and Gorges to be honest.
Ovie is still young and learning, H.Gill can`t skate...if Ovies coach had sense enough to tell him to take Gill on the outside all game ( instead of shooting the puck at his shin pads all night ) then either Ovie would have had a steady path to the net or Gill would have had a steady path to the penalty box for hooking.
|
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 16:38:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Pasty lets not forget that last year Halak was super - human for several weeks, i think more credit is due here ( regarding shutting down Ovie ) than to Gill and Gorges to be honest.
Ovie is still young and learning, H.Gill can`t skate...if Ovies coach had sense enough to tell him to take Gill on the outside all game ( instead of shooting the puck at his shin pads all night ) then either Ovie would have had a steady path to the net or Gill would have had a steady path to the penalty box for hooking.
i will ty and get the stats but honestly Duke you are right Halak was super human but the habs had 2 superhuman players on the ice and 3 elite level players Hammirlik, Gill and Gorges, they honestly steped up their game, they stepped up and blocked a put load of shots and kept Ovie well off the rush,, Backstrom and Chimera were the most dangerous offensive players in that series although ovie did have a few points most came at the begining of the series remember the habs were down 3-1,, they adapted to Ovie he did not
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
What is wrong with Alex Ovechkin? 
