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spade632
Rookie
Canada
247 Posts |
 Posted - 01/24/2011 : 13:23:33
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The Sens have dropped 11 of their last 12, notably being blown out 6-2 by Philly and 7-1 by the Habs on consecutive nights.
Most recently, Eugene Melnyk said that Clouston and Murray have their jobs until the end of the season. Which, seems to indicate that the "house-cleaning" - whatever it amounts to - will happen after the season ends.
Given that, what do you think the Sens should do? Who should they trade/keep? What do you think the best long-term plan is? Should they try and trade away players at the trade deadline or wait until after the season? Will the fans stick around for an
extensive rebuild?
Feel free to elaborate on any/all of the above and add your own questions.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 13:53:02
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Personally i hate the sens,,,can`t honestly say why other than being TO`s big rivals. Guess some of their players just rub me the wrong way.
The Sens have never been the same team after they let Chara walk...( big mistake ) looks good on them. Players like Chara are ir - replacable. Alfredsson doesn`t seem so cocky these gays.  |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 14:26:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Personally i hate the sens,,,can`t honestly say why other than being TO`s big rivals. Guess some of their players just rub me the wrong way.
The Sens have never been the same team after they let Chara walk...( big mistake ) looks good on them. Players like Chara are ir - replacable. Alfredsson doesn`t seem so cocky these gays.
They have the assets to make a quick turn around i think, I mean in a trade Phillips is worth at least a late first round pick or a B prospect, Alfredson i believe is under contract another 2 years you would have to think someone would trade a first rounder and a couple c+ prospects for, Spezza i'm sure could catch at least one 1rst rounder or B level prospects,, guys like Campoli you should be able to get a second round pick for, Mike Fisher should fetch a late first rounder and some sort of prospect pr roster player, you shold be able to get a 2nd rounder for kovy at the deadline maybe a little more than that for Chris Kelly,,
Now i know this sounds completly ridiculous i just suggested they trade away pretty much all of their top six and anything they have of value besides a few of the kids, but why not? The team they have in place is clearly not a winner, or by the time they make it a winner Guys like Alfredson aare they really gonna be a part of that team at their age, so take this chance to build through the draft, they are almost guranteed a lottery pick this year imagin add that in with possibly 3 other first round picks in this years draft and possibly 4 2nd round picks and a few prospects they pick up,, sure they would be bad next year aswell but that would just mean another top 5 draft pick,, and bam in 3 season they would already be on the same path as Edmonton or Chicago Washington or the pens,,, building a substainable winner!
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
500 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 14:46:25
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I think the plan in Ottawa is a minor rebuild. Maybe 2-3 years and then back in the playoffs. Fisher and Phillips are the only players of value the Sens are likely to deal at the deadline and both should fetch some decent picks/prospects. At the end of the year the Sens two biggest mistake contracts Kovalev and Leclaire are off the books so the Sens will have plenty of cap space to sign some free agents. They have some great defensive prospects like Jared Cowen, Patrick Wiercoch, and David Runblad. At least one of them should be ready to play next year. They will also probabley draft one of the top ranked forwards. The only position where I am not sure what the plan is, is goalie. There is no way they will re-sign Leclaire and Elliot has proven that he can't be a starter, so do they sign a goalie? bring up Lehner to start? or bring up Broudeur?
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 16:45:48
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quote:
At the end of the year the Sens two biggest mistake contracts Kovalev and Leclaire are off the books so the Sens will have plenty of cap space to sign some free agents
Wow, I was not aware that OTT will have nearly 20M next year in cap space (to sign roughly 10 players), that is a heap o' room. |
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spade632
Rookie
Canada
247 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 18:29:29
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I think the focus needs to be on building offence and solid goaltending since they've got up and coming defensive prospects.
Pascal "Porcelain Jaw" Leclaire can't stay healthy it seems for more than 10 games. Elliott is too inconsistent to be a starter. Still the Sens are in a tough spot as they can't throw Lehner into the mix as I don't think he's ready to carry a heavy load in the NHL yet.
Offence wise it can be summed up pretty simply - they need to SCORE. Granted Spezza is injured but their "scorers" - Alfie, Fisher, Kovalev, Kelly are all underperforming. On the back end Gonchar, who was brought in for offensive output has been pretty much a bust.
As for unloading talent - I think prime suspects would be Phillips, Kovalev (if anyone's willing to bet on him still), and Ruutu (for the "pest" needs). Alfie's a Sens lifer and as annoying as Spezza can be, he'd be hard to replace - best case scenario they can find/develop someone to play with Spezza.
And while they'll free up lots of Cap space - I think it would be foolish to go after big free agents - especially for this year.
Essentially, this year's a write-off. Take the high pick, trade for prospects/picks, and start building from within. As Sensfans101 says, they've got some pretty good upcoming Defensive prospects, and Lehner will (hopefully) become a solid starter. If they can develop solid cores in each zone (Goalies/Defence/Offence) then it'll bode well for the team.
If they mange to draft/deal well they can build up over the next few years and be competitive again in a couple of years. |
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Guest4278
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Posted - 01/24/2011 : 21:00:14
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I still don't know why people think Alfie is a cocky guy. Haven't seen it. Spezza, yeah he appears that way but no less than Phaneuf or P Kane. Maybe it is those blue tinted glasses causing the perception to be magnified.
Not sure if there is a need to blow the whole thing up. There doesn't seem to be any fire or desire this season since they are playing for a lame coach and GM (maybe owner too). Murray is the problem, thank goodness he is gone soon. This team started its decline as soon as he took over as GM. He is still on as a consultant which means he still has Eugene's ear.
See if Carboneau or Gainey wants to take the helm. Just don't hire Milbury. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 21:05:48
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quote:
Offence wise it can be summed up pretty simply - they need to SCORE. Granted Spezza is injured but their "scorers" - Alfie, Fisher, Kovalev, Kelly are all underperforming. On the back end Gonchar, who was brought in for offensive output has been pretty much a bust.
It sort of begs the question - how important is Spezza to the overall offense in OTT? Did their decline this year coincide with the fall of Spezza? Losing your top line centre is hard, very few teams have a second line centre that can adequately fill the void. Its pretty difficult to go for long periods of time with your centre's all moving up a line, and getting chemistry with those players.
Everyone talks about how he should be traded, but this slump that OTT have been in make me think that he's actually pretty valuable. |
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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
591 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 21:41:16
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spezza for ryan johansen
Go OILERS Go!!! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 21:56:22
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This team appears to be a candidate for an blow up. There are not enough key pieces in place to make this team return to their glory days of seasons past. Alfredsson, granted a great leader, is not the player he once was. Spezza is another player who is a shell of himself and a player who needs a sniper on his wing. Fischer is decent but 2nd line player don't win championships. Their defense is below average and will get worse if they drop Phillips. Goaltending is horrific.
There are some great young talents on this team, but only a few. They need a lot more to make this team solid.
Grab some TNT, start at the top, blow up the entire things and see what sticks. |
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T-RAV
Top Prospect
Canada
75 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 04:29:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4278
Murray is the problem, thank goodness he is gone soon. This team started its decline as soon as he took over as GM.
That's what I thought. I personally didn't think he was a very good GM. But in other threads, some guys were talking about how he built such an amazing team in Anaheim, and that Burke had nothing to do with that Cup. But if he built such a great club for the Ducks, why are the Sens where they are??
Peace and Respect |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 07:32:09
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quote:
Originally posted by T-RAV
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4278
Murray is the problem, thank goodness he is gone soon. This team started its decline as soon as he took over as GM.
That's what I thought. I personally didn't think he was a very good GM. But in other threads, some guys were talking about how he built such an amazing team in Anaheim, and that Burke had nothing to do with that Cup. But if he built such a great club for the Ducks, why are the Sens where they are??
Peace and Respect
I guess for the same reason that Burke was able to do decently in Vancouver and Anaheim and Toronto completely sucks.
Bazinga!!! |
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spade632
Rookie
Canada
247 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 07:33:11
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Guest - yeah, Toronto fans have a hate on for Alfie because
A) he's Ottawa's Captain so by default;
B) During the 2003-04 Season, Sundin was suspended one game for throwing a broken stick into the stands. He missed the following Sens vs. Leafs game as a result. And, at that game, Alfie broke a stick and made like he was going to throw it into the stands before dropping it to the ice. TO fans, of course, were outraged that Alfie would DARE to mock their "glorious leader" (For the record, that game finished 7-1 for Ottawa)- and;
C) In the 01-02 playoffs - Game 5 - Alfredsson hit Tucker (viciously from behind according to Leafs fans - no penalty or supplementary discipline for Alfreddson on the play) and then scored the game winner.
So, Guest, that sums up why Leaf fans hate Alfie / think he's cocky.
Nuxfan - As far as Spezza's importance to the team - they're 1-8-3 since he got injured on Boxing Day. While I don't think they'd have won a ton more wins with him in the lineup, I think there'd be at least a few more.
Beans - Yep, they definitely need a shooter to play with Spezza - just look at St. Louis/Stamkos or Spezza/Heatley .
Fisher can be / is a solid nd line guy - and you're right, 2nd liners don't win championships (defence does :P) but you do need good 2nd liners to build a competitive team.
And you're right on with Alfie - great leader, but he's lost a step lately. And Goaltending - what goaltending? :S
On a relate note - there's a rumour going around that Pierre McGuire is on the short list for GM.
And, to "The Duke" - I definitely think they should have kept Chara over Redden. If only so he could do more of this > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMWLFca67ng :D |
Edited by - spade632 on 01/25/2011 07:37:15 |
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mcrosier
Top Prospect
Canada
11 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 08:11:37
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I imagine Kovalev and Ruutu will be dealt shortly and that they will get little in return for them. If Phillips agrees to it they may move him as well. I can;t see anyone spending a 1st rounder on aging Phillips as a rental. He is -22 this year and is looking slower every game and almost never hits anyone. Nobody will take Leclair he will be gone when the season is done. They would love to move Fisher but he is owed 7 million over the next 2 seasons. He averages 45 points a season and is not among the league's premier shut down forwards. Will anyone pay that much for him? Spezza has not been a point a game player for the last three years. He is owed 8 million a year over the next 2 years and 5 million for year three. Who will take on that salary? They are both staying here. Kuba makes 3.7mil next year and is -18 with 4 points. He is staying. Gonchar is staying due to his lack of production, he is also -17 and is making 5.5mil for the next 2 years. Alfredsson is the face of the team he will never be traded and management has said so.
It is going to take some time to right the ship. At least good young players are finally on the way for defence. Looks somewhat promising with young goalies and not much for forwards.
A new manager and coach will be in to lead them soon. I hope they find the right people |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 06:57:27
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The "fall of Ottawa" (if you can call it that, as it's only started this year really) started with them getting the Old Leafs Management disease of signing unproven players to long term deals, and acquiring old stars and thinking they can continue on some kind of upward trend in their later years. And goaltending has been their achilles heel, for sure.
If I was management, first priority would be a goalie, and seriously, it would get instantly better. Then I'd get rid of Phillips for a bag of pucks, pursue another defensive d-man in the off-season, and try talking the Rangers into getting Kovalev for something of worth. Another winger through free-agency that can score 25 goals, and you have a team!
But it really all starts with the goalie. They have a few great pieces, but without a decent goalie, there is no future.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 07:13:42
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A big NO to Kovalev returning to NYR!! He was a complete bust during his last stint in NY, no need to go that route again. Especially after him bashing the Rangers as a member of the Habs :) I wasn't fan of Kovalev during his 1st stint, much less his 2nd, i hope to god there isn't a 3rd...
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 17:49:32
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Tor. completely sucks...true but....Bazinga...lol
Give the man time Beans, he hasn`t been there long enough to clean up JFJ`s mess and rebuild at the same time. Do you realize the contracts he had to rid the leafs of when arrived....and contracts held by lousy players to boot.
I`m glad enough as a fan their ( former rejects ) gone....let alonr have a hockey team !!! |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 02:25:44
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I have to agree with Beans, pull the pin and run. Ottawa is in a tuff jam with high end contracts that are hard if not impossible to move.
"Hockey is a man's game. The team with the most real men wins.” - Brian Burke |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 03:50:09
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They need to blow it up, tank for 5 years and collect lottery picks to rebuild this team. As stated in other threads this is the only way to rebuild teams today. Look what it has done for Edm after collecting such draft picks as Cogliano, Gagner, Omark, heck they even had can't miss prospects like Schremp and Torres. Now they have Hall, Eberle and MPS and have got 4 wins in their last 21. This IS the right way to rebuild and there is no other way. Perhaps it should be 10 years of lottery picks.
Don't kid yourself the "assets" in Ottawa are no better then the "assets" in TO with the exception of Spezza. |
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Chalky17
Top Prospect
Canada
2 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 05:48:32
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| The blueprint for winning cups these days seems to be crap the bed for a couple of years, draft a couple of players high in the first round and then win a cup in two years. Pittsburgh did that, Chicago did that, Anaheim did that. The only place that defies this logic is Detroit, where they drafted well 10 years ago and still keep winning. Edmonton should win a cup within the next 5 years. If Ottawa takes that logic, we should suffer a bit and then be contenders again. The current group has accomplished nothing. 4 coaches couldn't get it done with this group so a change is needed. Get what you can get for Gonchar and Kovalev at the trade deadline, move Fisher, keep Spezza unless you can find another #1 center and lose the goalies. Lehner is way too young to be getting NHL starts. He's not that good yet - if he ever will be. |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 06:04:15
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I wouldn't say it's the only way to rebuild today, there's plenty of examples around the league of teams that have been able to ice playoff calibre teams post lock-out, yet through good drafting/signings have set their teams up nicely for future years. Philadelphia comes to mind. They only had the 1 bad season in which they were awarded the 2nd overall pick & drafted James van Riemsdyk.
Being a Rangers fan, i'll use them as an example as well. Last season is the only year post-lockout that they missed the playoffs, and only by 1 point. Yet in recent years they've been able to restock the organization with quality draft picks. Whether through the draft (Lundqvist, Staal, Del Zotto, Stepan, etc), signing undrafted players (Girardi, Zuccarello, Gilroy), trade (Wolski, McDonagh, Eminger), or the odd splash into free agency (Gaborik, Prospal). The organization is in good position moving forward. They have the youngest defense corps in the league & one of the youngest teams in general. There's still some quality prospects coming down the pipeline as well, guys like Chris Kreider, Evgeny Grachev, and Jesper Fasth.
Those are just 2 examples though. Dallas look like they'll be top contender for the next few years and they never bottomed out. Same with Boston. Detroit, San Jose & New Jersey (until this year) are contenders year after year. Etc. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 08:11:33
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Thanks ryan93, a voice of reason . . . I was starting to think I was the only poster on here who did not think that the only way (or the only "correct way" is how it's sold on TV sports shows and newspapers) to build a competitive playoff contender was to bottom out and re-build using a core of highly drafted players.
Although I really detest your avatar, dude. Sorry, but it is highly political, and not cool with me, just so you know.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 08:19:42
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Chalky - that blueprint only works in that way if the 2 guys you draft are of the same quality as Malkin/Crosby, or Kane/Toews, or Getzlaf/Perry. I don't doubt that the draft is the way to rebuild, but that roundtrip can take longer than 5 years.
The position of the draft is not as important as the quality of the draft pick - the key however is drafting, not UFA signing. I think if you look at most top-flight teams today, they have built through a long (5-10 year) history of drafting quality players and then developing them through their system. VAN is another example - since 1999 they have had a top-10 draft pick only 2 times (10th in 2005, Luc Bourdon, and 10th in 2008, Hodgson), yet have built one of the best teams out there now. More than half of their current team was drafted by the organization and developed into what they are now.
I don't know what OTT's talent pool looks like because I don't follow them. Do they have enough in the system now to start a rebuild? |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 11:28:00
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Slozo i`ve been conveying most of Ryan`s main points regarding team building since the start of the season, do you read any of my posts ?
Your not the only one who feels this way about bottoming out
I wonder how many of the last place finishing teams in the last 20 years have won the Stanley Cup ??......would be interesting to know...
and of the few teams who have won multiple cups over the same time period....how many times have they bottomed out ?? lets say bottom 5... |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 12:05:20
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thats a pretty easy correlation to do Duke. I'll go back 10 years
2010 - CHI
- 06/07 - tied for 4th worst in the league
- 05/06 - 4th worst
- 03/04 - tied for 2nd worst
2009 - PIT
- 05/06 - second last
- 03/04 - last place
- 02/03 - second last
- 01/02 - bottom third
2008 - DET
- exception to the rule
2007 - ANA
- 03/04 - 8th worst
- 01/02 - tied for 4th worst
- 00/01 - 4th worst
2006 - CAR
- 02/03 - last place (other than that, they did pretty well)
2004 - TB
- 01/02 - tied for 4th worst
- 00/01 - second last
- 99/00 - second last
- 98/99 - last place
2003 - DET
- exception to the rule
2002 - NJ
2001 - COL
2000 - NJ
So, a couple of interesting trends:
- before the cap, the team that could spend the most on salaries and build the best team won. NJ, DET, COL all had huge payrolls in the years that they won - I posted in another thread, in 2003 DET payroll was about 78M. You can assemble whatever you need for 78M and win a lot. You don't need to go past 1999 to see that trend.
- starting in 04, and continuing after the cap, there is a definite trend of bottoming out (at least finishing bottom 5 for a few years), then drafting very well and succeeding. Time will tell whether or not that trend continues. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 01/27/2011 12:05:34 |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 12:13:00
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| I'll change the avatar back to a Ranger-related pic later...the rec team i play on is CCCP, hence why i went with their logo. |
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Guest2712
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Posted - 01/27/2011 : 13:07:17
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ah yes the modern day arguement.......to tank or not to tank. that is the question.
teams like Detroit, NJ, even SJS have proven that you don't need high picks to be a contender year after year.
on the other hand teams like Pitt, CHI, and Wash, show that high picks will eventually pay off.
whether you draft high or low, the keys are two fold:
1) keep as many picks as you can.
2) focus on their development. player development goes a lot further then the slot in which you were drafted. just ask guys like Datsuyk, Zetterberg, and Byfugelin.
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 13:24:54
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I think many missed the fact that Chop was clearly being sarcastic when stating " Being brutal for a couple yrs IS the only way" to truly be a championship team rubbing it into those who have routinely stated such opinions.
Nuxfan showed that finishing in the lower half is benefical for some teams to succeed & Ryan indicated that not every team needs to bottom out. The Flyers & Anaheim kind of got the luck of the draw in their quick turnarounds in that they both had 2 first round picks in the 03-04 (Perry, Carter, Getzlaf & Richards) draft which i am sure many would agree is one if not the deepest draft classes ever. Little bit of luck & a little bit of good management.
Although, Ottawa finds itself in a position it has been unfamiliar with over the last decade i do not think it is in need of a complete blow up. Indeed the signings of Gonchar this yr & Leclaire & Kovalev a couple of yrs ago may have been ill advised but every team has their oops we should have never taken on the contract when it doesn't pan out. However, they are heavily invested in Spezza, Alfredson, Michalek, Fisher, Gonchar & Kuba the next couple of seasons plus Kelly & Neil at 2 mill apiece totaling 34mill next yr and overall they will have 17 players under contract. Throw in that at the end of the yr Kovalev, Leclaire, Phillips, Ruutu & potentially elliot (RFA) are all gone or maybe a decent / respectable acquistion at the deadline for one of the above names. That leaves the Sens between 17 - 18 million to fill 6- 8 roster spots as you can almost ensure Jared Cowen & Corey Locke and potentially Mark Stone who is in jrs to take 2 - 3 spots on next yrs roster.
They desperately require a quality goalie (Vokoun & Bryzgalov a possibility) another quality defensive dman would not hurt and a scorer that can open the ice up for Spezza. By no means is a blow up the route they should go. A Top 10 pick in this yrs draft will help them out. This team has many assests that are still young and to get rid of the likes of Fisher, Spezza & Michalek as i do not think anyone is willing to take on Gonchar's contract with no real guarntee in the prospects you will acquire is setting yourself to turn out to be the new Florida or Columbus just as much so as it is to be the next Anaheim Pit or Chi.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 13:55:45
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| Thank you Mario, I knew someone would get it. |
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What to do in Ottawa? 
