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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
 Posted - 02/21/2007 : 10:32:35
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The Flames are a riddle to me sometimes. When they had no scoring Kipper was on fire (aside from the start of the season) And now that they are scoring by the boat load Kipper is off again and is letting in some pretty weak goals. I wonder if he is a little like Luongo in that he needs more shots? Does he need to be the saviour for him to perform at his peak?
Flames fans need him to start rolling now because anything short of finishing first in the regular season could be the death blow since they can't seem to win on the road.
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2007 : 10:56:10
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| It's cause he's just not as good as everyone plays him out to be. Call it my IHC moment, but everyone plays Kiprusoff out to be a God when really, he's just your average goalie. This is proof. |
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wyntyre
Rookie
Canada
185 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 13:29:28
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Really he looks more like kippersieve lately....Curtis McElhinney or Brent Krahn should be called up from Omaha....McElhinney is doing a great job down with the baby flames
Can't go...The Roads Are Dirty |
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Novie
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
452 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 19:51:51
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
It's cause he's just not as good as everyone plays him out to be. Call it my IHC moment, but everyone plays Kiprusoff out to be a God when really, he's just your average goalie. This is proof.
Stellar comment, Babs.....loved the IHC comparison....where is that guy lately, anyway? Out shining the Art Ross up for Sid?
I think the D in front of Kipper is having an off-season too....and the Flames, in their quest to be a high-scoring team, have left poor Kipper out to dry. They're allowing shot totals in the 30's...something unheard of in previous years.
Go Sens
Crosby is God
Tucker is a douche |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 22:11:49
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
It's cause he's just not as good as everyone plays him out to be. Call it my IHC moment, but everyone plays Kiprusoff out to be a God when really, he's just your average goalie. This is proof.
This from the guy who raved so highly about San Jose's goaltending duo...who both turned out to be less than average by mid season. Babs, you yourself went on at nauseum that the only true definition of a good goalie are "wins". Well I hate to break it to you but Kipper is 4th in the league with wins. 2nd in shut outs. And has both a better sv% and GAA than both your boys. Trust me, even with a slumping team he is still much better than average and I have faith he'll pull out of his slump. 1st in the div is still well within range if he can pull it together. |
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semin-rules
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1915 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 05:34:15
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Kipper has been doing great for the Flames now but I may be wrong about this but i think that he can't do well under pressure....when the heat is on in the game, the heat is off for kipper. That is just my opinion
~~~~~GO STARS~~~~~ |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 09:58:26
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He's not a BAD goalie, he's good and that's it.
I will admit that both SJ goalies have slumped a little (TOSKALA'S WIN% IS 69% AND HE IS SLUMPING?????), especially Nabokov. I wish they would stop this "every other game" crap and start Toskala as their #1 and Nabokov as their #2. Unfortunately Toskala is injured so Nabokov has to play. Against Calgary, he had a less-than-stellar game, as did Kiprusoff. But still, San Jose does have maybe now the 2nd best duo (behind Buffalo). McLennan is hardly part of the Flames at all and contributes nothing. Point is, at least San Jose has two quality, often elite goalies that can play interchangeably throughout the season.
Leigh, Kiprusoff has so many wins because he plays every blasted game. He has 30 wins in 57 games, which is a Win% of 0.526. Toskala has 24 wins in 35 games, for a Win% of 0.686. If Toskala had played 57 games, his record, proportionately to his record through 35 games, would be 39-15-3. That would make him 1st in wins in the league, ahead of Martin Brodeur. Who's the better Finnish goalie? |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 02/26/2007 10:01:14 |
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Ddeathblade
Top Prospect
28 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 17:00:28
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| Wins ain't everything Babs. San Jose has their golden forwards of Thornton, Marleau, and Cheechoo. True, Marleau and Cheechoo aren't having their best season, but they've been decent. San Jose has a lot of goals scored. When you're on a high scoring team, wins doesn't mean much. A goalie's true worth is determined by save percentage, GAA, and shutouts. |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 19:44:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ddeathblade
Wins ain't everything Babs. San Jose has their golden forwards of Thornton, Marleau, and Cheechoo. True, Marleau and Cheechoo aren't having their best season, but they've been decent. San Jose has a lot of goals scored. When you're on a high scoring team, wins doesn't mean much. A goalie's true worth is determined by save percentage, GAA, and shutouts.
Wins don't mean much? WINS DON'T MEAN MUCH? I can't believe I'm even going to dignify this with a comment. WHAT'S THE POINT OF PLAYING IF NOT TO WIN? Dude, people play sports to win. If you disagree with that then you have never watched or followed any sport that's ever been played. That was simply an absurd comment dude.
Oh by the way, as much as I hate to admit this, Calgary averages more goals per game than SJ. That means that Kiprusoff has more goals to play with in order to earn a win. Calgary averages 3.16 goals per game and KIPRUSOFF CAN ONLY WIN 54% OF THE TIME???? THAT'S BRUTAL. That means that 46% of the time, he lets in more than 3.16 goals (on average), that's PATHETIC.
SV%, GAA and SO mean hardly a thing. Take my (not so) favourite goalie Nabokov for example. He's 2nd in shutouts with 7, tied for 4th in GAA and 12th in SV%. Good you think? He's tied for 29th in wins and has a Win% under 50. THAT'S BRUTAL, AND HE PLAYS FOR SAN JOSE! Those stats mean nothing and that's what's so wrong with people these days. They don't know how to read stats = Kiprusoff being portrayed as a god. It's blasphemous. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 03/26/2007 19:45:12 |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 20:55:33
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| Kippur is such a good goaltender his confidence is probably down rite now. |
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Saku Steen
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1102 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2007 : 03:46:35
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| Kippersoft is a great goalie but can be shakey at times. |
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wyntyre
Rookie
Canada
185 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 14:43:49
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38 saves....shutout in a shootout....I think in the last three games 2004 Miikka has returned....or at least I hope he has
Can't go...The Roads Are Dirty |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 15:11:09
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| Kipper is a good goalie. Babs, honestly man, SV% doesn't mean anything??? Ok, wins...who wins games? The TEAM does. Who makes saves? The GOALIE does. You know, I personally think that you do not have a point with the win % thing. Winning is NOT solely a goalie thing. Thats why it is not kept as a goalie stat babs. IT IS A TEAM thing. I agree with you on ONE thing, Kipper should have more wins this year. But why can't he slip one year? I honestly think that you are being a bit hard on him at times. He is an all-star, an olympian, a good playoff goalie and if Calgary makes the playoffs he'll step up. |
Edited by - ED11 on 03/28/2007 15:13:00 |
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Novie
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
452 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 15:22:04
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quote:
Originally posted by ED11
Kipper is a good goalie. Babs, honestly man, SV% doesn't mean anything??? Ok, wins...who wins games? The TEAM does. Who makes saves? The GOALIE does. You know, I personally think that you do not have a point with the win % thing. Winning is NOT solely a goalie thing. Thats why it is not kept as a goalie stat babs. IT IS A TEAM thing. I agree with you on ONE thing, Kipper should have more wins this year. But why can't he slip one year? I honestly think that you are being a bit hard on him at times. He is an all-star, an olympian, a good playoff goalie and if Calgary makes the playoffs he'll step up.
ALL stats are misleading....can a player get assists if his linemates can't shoot? Goals if they can't pass? Can the greatest hitter in the Majors can finish a season with 6 RBI if nobody on his team can get on base.
Point is, stats should never be the guage we measure players by, but they should also be the ONLY way to measure players...if that makes ANY sense at all 
Same with the old argument: he has more championship rings. Ray Bourque has one, and it was achieved nowhere near the prime of his career..he became a rental player and moved to a contender, and got lucky.
Go Sens
Crosby is God
Tucker is a douche |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 16:47:19
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quote:
Originally posted by ED11
Kipper is a good goalie. Babs, honestly man, SV% doesn't mean anything??? Ok, wins...who wins games? The TEAM does. Who makes saves? The GOALIE does. You know, I personally think that you do not have a point with the win % thing. Winning is NOT solely a goalie thing. Thats why it is not kept as a goalie stat babs. IT IS A TEAM thing. I agree with you on ONE thing, Kipper should have more wins this year. But why can't he slip one year? I honestly think that you are being a bit hard on him at times. He is an all-star, an olympian, a good playoff goalie and if Calgary makes the playoffs he'll step up.
I know what you are saying Ed, although I do believe that a win is a shared stat. I'm not sure how to quantify it though????
Babs, your winning % logic says that Brodeur is barely adequate too. Brodeur has won 44 games out of 73 (60%). Luongo has 44 out of 71 (61%). Surely you can't argue that they are average goalies?
Not once in Luongo’s 6 previous years in Florida was he over 50% winning. In fact his best season by far was 46.66%. Are you saying that suddenly this year he broke out? Are you saying that going to a better team had nothing to do with it? Luongo has been a great goalie for a few years! Face it, winning % is at least equally a team stat. It is not the end all be all. I don't mind someone chucking it into an argument to help support their point but it can't be the sole pillar of strength.
Typically the more games you play the less possibility there is of a "streak" skewing the numbers. You can't compare guys who have played in 30 or 40 games with guys who have played 60 or 70 games. You're talking apples and oranges.
Interesting info (ya I geeked out here too!)
Winning % for goalies with over 55 games played as of March 28, 07
VAN - Luongo - 71/44 = 61.97
BUF – Miller – 58/35 = 60.34
NJD - Brodeur - 73/44 = 60.27
PIT – Fleury – 62/37 = 59.67
DAL – Turco – 63/35 = 55.55
CGY - Kipprusoff - 69/38 = 55.07
TOR - Raycroft – 66/35 = 53.03
NYR – Lundqvist – 65/34 = 52.30
CAR – Ward – 56/29 = 51.78
NYI – Dipietro – 62/32 = 51.61
ATL – Lehtonen – 64/32 = 50.00
BOS – Tim Thomas – 63/30 = 47.62
FLA - Ed Belfour – 55/25 = 45.45
CHI – Khabibulin – 55/23 = 41.81
EDM – Roloson – 66/26 = 39.39 |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 17:34:01
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You guys are missing the whole point with why I brought up the Win%.
I brought it up because Calgary is one of the highest-scoring teams in the league (6th). They average 3.12 goals for per game. That would mean that on average, Kiprusoff can let in 3 goals per game and still win. Yet, he has only won (now) 55% of his games. So, we can deduce that on average, Kiprusoff lets in MORE THAN 3.12 goals 45% of the time (remember, they have won scoring less and lost scoring more, but I'm emphasizing the on average part). Look at their results and you'll see how many games he's let in 5, 6, 7 goals this year (7 times Calgary has let in 5 or more goals, maybe once was McLennan). He is NOT showing signs of an elite goalie, I don't care what anyone says. Too many have been brainwashed... Why can't he slip ED? He's not slipping, he's playing his hockey. He had one year where he went up, but this is the real Kiprusoff, the one that only wins a couple times over half.
Luongo is so good because he's won so many games with such crappy, low-scoring teams. Brodeur has won with good teams, but low-scoring ones. Luongo has the best Win% up there at 62% on the 9th lowest-scoring team. Brodeur is at 60ish% on the 5th lowest-scoring team. THAT'S WHY THEY'RE SO GOOD. Luongo won as many games as he did with Florida on teams that barely scored an average of 2 goals per game, that's why he is considered so good.
If Kiprusoff is "so good", he should be able to win MANY more games behind such an offensive team. But what can I say, he just isn't up there... It's sad that no one sees where I'm coming from. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 03/28/2007 17:35:44 |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 17:51:37
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Babs. You said. " Luongo is so good because he's won so many games with such crappy, low-scoring teams." What? Babs, the most games Luongo won with Florida was 35. His overall record with Florida was 108 wins with 168 losses in 317 games. 108 wins in 317 games babs!!!!!!. Thats a winning % of 34%!!!! AND HE WAS STILL CONSIDERED AN ELITE GOALIE! Thats because DESPITE that horrible record and TERRIBLE winning % he still managed to get a SV% of .931 in the 03-04 season despite his record of 25-33-14!!! And all the years with Florida he had a SV% of .904 or higher. That SV% is why people thought he was good. If a team can't win a game with a goalie that has a SV% of .931 like Florida struggled to do, you cannot blame the goalie, he is doing everything he can. Which Luongo was doing. SV% MATTERS babs. This is why I can't see your point about SV% not mattering.
On the matter of Kipper, I agree, he should have more wins. But he will bounce back in the playoffs and next season. Thats what I think. |
Edited by - ED11 on 03/28/2007 17:58:20 |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 17:55:57
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
...Look at their results and you'll see how many games he's let in 5, 6, 7 goals this year (7 times Calgary has let in 5 or more goals, maybe once was McLennan). He is NOT showing signs of an elite goalie, I don't care what anyone says. ...
He also has 7 shut outs. Let me put that into a pecentage for you so you can understand - 10.14% |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 18:05:07
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Did you guys know that 67.8% of the time percentages don't mean what you think they do???
Kidding, I'm a stats geek. |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 18:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Did you guys know that 67.8% of the time percentages don't mean what you think they do???
Kidding, I'm a stats geek.
Did you know that 53.7% of statistics are made up on the spot? |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 18:13:38
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
...Look at their results and you'll see how many games he's let in 5, 6, 7 goals this year (7 times Calgary has let in 5 or more goals, maybe once was McLennan)....
Actually Kiprusoff has let in more than 5 goals only 5 times this season.
5 goals 2x,
6 goals 3x.
7 goals 0x |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 18:16:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Did you guys know that 67.8% of the time percentages don't mean what you think they do???
Kidding, I'm a stats geek.
Did you know that 53.7% of statistics are made up on the spot?
Is that one of those times? Haha. |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 18:18:13
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Yeah, that was the point  |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 18:25:13
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| my first post as a moderator...Let's stay on topic folks. |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 19:40:59
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| Ok then, Niklas Backstrom's SV% is .927, he should win the Vezina and should be considered an elite goalie for the rest of his career. |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 19:45:37
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| Backstrom has a record of 20-8-6. Thats quite impressive if you ask me. But he has only played 37 games babs. If he can do it for 4-5 years like Luongo did then he probably will be. Come on babs, you know what I meant. |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 19:57:54
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| Well I'm comparing him to Kiprusoff. He only did it for one year and all of a sudden he's the best goalie in the World? Listen to Kelly Hrudey talk about him, it sounds like he wants to have his babies. You even said it, you should wait 4-5 years to see how Backstrom does. Kiprusoff has played OK EVERY YEAR IN HIS CAREER EXCEPT ONE but he's considered an elite goalie. HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? I mean for God's sakes, Theodore won the Vezina and the Hart in the same year, which seems to have been his one stellar year but everyone has accepted him as a mediocre goalie. Jim Carey won the Vezina in his only stellar year but people accept him as an OK goalie. Why is Kiprusoff the exception to this rule? |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 03/28/2007 20:00:13 |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 20:24:53
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Ok babs. Let me put it this way and then maybe we can come to a bit of an agreement about this issue. You talk about Theodore. Yes he has won trophies but how did he follow up? He is 12-15 this year and has completely been replaced as a starter...I don't understand what you have against Kipper. The guy had 42 wins last year. He has 38 this year with 6 games left. If he gets 42 this year that means he had followed up! Like, I don't get it. His SV% last year was.923 and this year it's .919. How is he sooooo different this year. He is following up and he is a good goalie.
Also, I said it before and I'll say it again. I agree with you that he should have a FEW more wins this year. But he is solid. |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 21:37:14
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Keep the SV% to yourself, I don't care!
Ok but if Raycroft had played as many games as MK will have, he would have won as many times (going by Win%), yet he gets grilled for being terrible. I know part of that is Toronto region pressure, but wins are wins. Toronto is a much worse team than Calgary, but he can win as much. Who cares if his SV% is .8 whatever, he wins just as much as Kiprusoff! Why isn't Raycroft one of the best goalies in the league this year (disregard others, even though he does have a Calder in his trophy case)? I mean he wins the same on a worse team, seems to me the logical conclusion is that he's better?
Listen, I get your SV% argument. I know what it means but to me, wins are the most important stat. Obviously Luongo couldn't win much on Florida, but that can be taken into consideration when judging his skill. Kiprusoff has no excuse. For playing almost every game during the season, having a lot of breathing room as far as goals and playing behind a solid team, he should win more. To me, he is not showing what a true elite goalie should be, yet he gets all the recognition. That's why I don't like him. It may have nothing to do with him, but I cringe when I hear his name. I just hate when players are glorified like him. I can't impose that on anyone, but I just want people to even just imagine things from my angle, that's all. I know 95% will disagree, but just consider my thoughts and I'm good. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 03/28/2007 21:42:49 |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 22:38:34
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| Thoughts considered. Good discussion babs! |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 23:23:50
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
...Well I'm comparing him to Kiprusoff. He only did it for one year and all of a sudden he's the best goalie in the World?...
He's actually had 3 good years in a row and one hell of a playoff run!
- 2003-2004 38 games, 24 wins (63.16% if anyone cares) 4 Shutouts, 1.69 GAA, .933 SV%
- 2004-2005 No season
- 2005-2006 74 games, 42 wins (56.76) 10 Shutouts, 2.07 GAA, .923 SV%
- 2006-2007 so far 69 games, 38 wins (55.07) 7 Shutouts, .2.42 GAA, 919 SV%
Not a bad few years and he's just coming into his peak years. Is he the best in the league right now? I don't think so, but he could be.
By the way Babs. I'm liking you saying Calgary is a good team. It suits you, I can make some room on my wagon if you want to jump ship after your Sharks get knocked out of the playoffs. |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2007 : 17:22:32
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They're the best 8th place team in the league.
Don't push your luck. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2007 : 21:18:09
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Hey babs, I found this old post of yours when i was looking in the "best Shoot out moves" thread. It's from December.
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=943
I'm not sure what you mean but maybe you can clarify it...are you saying that Kipper is one of the best goalies here... I don't know, you be the judge...
quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
WOW
Rolston pulled off the slapshot against Kiprusoff last night too. That's amazing: Once against Luongo and once against Kiprusoff. He just needs to pull it off against Henrik Lundqvist, who is 22/22 in shootouts and I say he's got the trifecta.
heeeheeeheee! |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2007 : 21:34:38
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Haha well I've also ranked him like #9 on my list of top goalies (I couldn't find it). He's one OF the best, but far from it.
The thing I love about that shot was that Kiprusoff cheated to that side of the net, because he must have been anticipating it, yet he still let it in. Don't believe me? YouTube it (oh yes, that will become a word soon). Look where Kiprusoff is positioned, he was clearly playing that shot and Rolston still got him. What a wiener. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 15:15:03
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
Haha well I've also ranked him like #9 on my list of top goalies (I couldn't find it). He's one OF the best, but far from it.
The thing I love about that shot was that Kiprusoff cheated to that side of the net, because he must have been anticipating it, yet he still let it in. Don't believe me? YouTube it (oh yes, that will become a word soon). Look where Kiprusoff is positioned, he was clearly playing that shot and Rolston still got him. What a wiener.
You're a good sport buddy! lol! I'll yuotubeit and get back to you. |
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Topic |
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Kiprusoff Not Shining Lately 
