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Guest8149
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 Posted - 03/13/2011 : 21:09:02
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The NHL's top two defensemen (in points) faced off in tonight's game between the Coyotes and Ducks.
Who would have predicted Keith Yandle and Lubomir Visnovsky leading the race for most points by a defenseman with only four weeks left in the season? (Noteworthy though, there are quite a few players close behind, including Nick Lidstrom, who currently sits only one point behind.)
Both players log a lot of minutes for their respective teams, usually over 24 minutes a game. (Visnovsky played over 27 minutes in tonight's game.). Visnovsky is also a respectable +8 on a team which is struggling to make the playoffs. He's a smart defenseman who rarely takes a bad penalty. (He has 18 minutes in penalties so far. Same as Lidstrom actually.)
Now I'm not going to suggest either player is going to win the Norris (or be on the ballot),
but both players are having a great season, one worthy of some recognition.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2011 : 22:10:52
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| They very well might get nominations and you're right, they're having outstanding seasons. Lidstrom, with the season he's having at his age, still has to be considered the favorite though. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 04:24:33
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my three are Yandle Visnovsky and Weaber i think Weaber should win. plays for the best defensive team in the league and he is a huge part of that
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 04:51:22
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Well, I think people are starting tohear about Keith Yandle, but the problem is, he plays in Bettman's favourite city, where it's just him and another couple of dudes who got freebies watching (Phoenix).
Visnovsky would be the most underrated defenceman if not for Yandle, and has had an outstanding year. At least with him, we do know that he has excellent offensive capabilities . . . but he has shown himself to be quite defensively responsible this year as well. His +8 on a team with a -9 goal differential looks pretty good, considering the number of pp points he has (3ppg, 20ppa).
Lidstrom is up there in points, sure; but he's a -1, on a team with other old offensive guys like Rafalski who has a +14, to put it into perspective. Detroit is +28 in goal differential, btw. IT sorta stands out to me, even though I try not to put too much stock into the +/- stat, it does say something to me about Lidstrom, as his +/- has always been high, and was always pointed to as proof of his strong defence - hence, I think it should be pointed out now when it says different.
So yes, I would have Yandle and Visnovsky as my Norris candidates right now, sure. My third choice would be Letang from Pittsburgh.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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FutureKesler
Rookie
Canada
122 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 06:19:38
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What about Kris Letang?
Kesler is the TRUE Nucks Captain. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 09:51:42
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| What about Byfuglien? Is he in the mix? |
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
500 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 10:17:40
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I don't know I no longer think Byfuglien is in the mix. He may still get nominated but I could not see him winning. I think the nominees will be Lidstrom, Letang, and Yandle.
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 12:02:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Sensfan101
I don't know I no longer think Byfuglien is in the mix. He may still get nominated but I could not see him winning. I think the nominees will be Lidstrom, Letang, and Yandle.
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky
You're prob right. After a crazy hot start, he's certainly come back down to earth and it coincided with Atlanta's fall in the standings!
I like Letang, but if Yandle's in the mix, then Visnovsky almost has to be too. Their stats are nearly identical! |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 13:33:09
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If Lidstrom wins the award this yr then they should change the criteria of the award & make it based upon voters favorite D-man. I think Lidstrom is the man, no doubt about it. That said, if you give it to him with a minus 1 rating over a guy like Yandle who has been hands down the best overall dmen since the second half of last yr then i would be very disappointed in the voters. My finalist Yandle, Vishonovsky & Letang / Weber. Yes, you see correctly I left Mr.Lidstrom off the ballet as a minus 1 on a top 5 team in the league does not suffice. Especially, when as Slozo indicated Rafalski is sitting at a healthy plus 14.
In youth we learn; in age we understand |
Edited by - Mario 66 on 03/14/2011 13:34:35 |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 14:49:24
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Personally, i don't put any stock in the +/- stat, never did.
Henrik Zetterberg is considered one of the best 2-way forwards in the NHL, yet he's only a +1 on a very good Wings club. Look at the Chicago Blackhawks, Brent Seabrook is one of the best shutdown defensemen in the game, yet he's just a +1 while fellow blueliner Brian Campbell is a +28. One of the obvious reasons is guys like Lidstrom & Seabrook play every night against the other teams top line. |
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Guest4988
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Posted - 03/14/2011 : 20:19:51
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| Keith Yandle, who reminds me an awful lot of last year's winner, Duncan Keith. The blackhawks blueliner is having a respectable season too, but not as good as last year, so he likely won't repeat. I'm glad to hear Brent Seabrook get at least a mention, he's very under-rated as he plays in D.Keith's shadow. I think your three nominees will be Yandle, Lidstrom and Weber, although Visnovsky deserves it too, so Yandle plus any two of those three deserve the nod. |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 22:17:01
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@Mario66:
Your +/- argument is very compelling, but can easily be a misleading stat, especially in regards to matchups, when the coach players etc.
I wouldn't discount Lidstrom from the ballot just on that one stat. Yet, I find in very surprising for Lidstrom being at a minus.
Still, +8,+5,-1. Those are pretty close numbers. I think different factors than that particular stat will be in play for Visnovsky, Yandle, Lidstrom as potential Norris winners.
What about Lidstrom's age? He is 40, that's the age of a lot of NHL players parents! What about Visnovsky's team? Visnovsky practically carried his team for while when ANA had a string of injuries. And I really can't comment on Yandle, don't watch PHX often.
I think the Norris trophy will be a fun one to watch this year! |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 05:55:17
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But polishexpress, the +/- stat is useful, when put into context.
Like I pointed out, you have to add in all factors when weighing it - the teams goal differential, what situations the defenceman plays in, how many minutes he gets, how much power play time he gets and how often the team is on the power play, and if he is a shutdown defender playing against top lines.
I would submit to you that Yandle, Visnovsky and Letang all play a very very similar role on their teams. Does Rafalski on Detroit play second pairing minutes against the other team's second line mostly? Sure, he probably gets a small break on the +/- from that.
BUT
You can't have it both ways. You can't bring up Lidstrom's great +/- last year when comparing it to goal differential, then pretend it is a useless stat. You can't discount Green being nominated last year and everyone being in an uproar about his +/-, then saying for Lidstrom it doesn't matter.
It does matter, especially when you can weigh in all factors.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 10:56:50
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I'm not trying to discount it, but I'm of the opinion that I doubt it'll sway the voters for the trophy when they consider Lidstrom's age and history when they compare the stat to the other potential candidates.
Besides, Lidstrom is a -1 now, what about at the end of the season? He could be a plus! I don't mean to play the "What-if" game, I just would like to evaluate stats at the end of the season. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2011 : 11:34:07
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I see Lidstrom winning as well. Not only the age thing, but really no defenseman has really stood out this year. Sure, Visnovsky and Yandle (among others) have scored a ton and have a decent +/-, but ask yourself if either Yandle or Visnovsky is their teams key penalty killing defenseman?? It's not like we are talking about last season when the three nominees(Green, Doughty, and Keith) were also 1,2,3 in scoring, all had a greater than +20 rating, and all averaged more than 2 minutes a game on their teams PK. Lubomir Visnovsky averages 0:23 minutes per game on the PK and Yandle averages 0:49 minutes per game. Lidstrom averages 2:46 seconds a game which is good for 2nd most on the team among defensemen.
The Norris is a trophy award for efforts on 2 sides of the puck. I have a hard time saying a player should get the best defensemen in the NHL award when he is not counted on to be at least one of the top defensive players on his own team.
Lidstrom, in a landslide. Not even close. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 10:24:42
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Beans, seriously . . . when is your opinion not "in a landslide"?!?
C'mon, be real here. Even with Lidstrom's history, the voting is sure to be close between at least two of the nominees (Lidstrom, Yandle and Visnovsky perhaps at this point), the stats are all very close.
The only noticeable difference is that Lidstrom has a lower +/-, which suddenly doesn't count because it's Lidstrom. Totally useless stat now, apparently.
And, the power play points - Lidstrom has more of his points on the pp comparitively, and again, in the past that would be a knock against the defenceman, because it's Lidstrom, it doesn't matter.
Of his 14 goals and 41 assists at this point,
Lidstrom has 7 goals, 27 assists on the power play, compared with 7 goals, 14 assists even strength.
34 of his 55 points come from the power play . . . hey, does anyone remember that discussion about certain Norris nominees being power play specialists, and therefore they weren't relevant?
Anyone, Beans? 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 10:43:10
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Come on all due respect to Lidstrom but not this year there are a handfull of d men who are more worthy this year, he is simply not the best d man in the league this year
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 11:07:54
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Here is my opinion. If the choice this year is as close as we think it is, then won't the Hockey Writers be greatly sway by Lidstrom's "brand-name"?
The hockey writers will vote on this, so even if Lidstrom isn't first on everyone's list, he will be at least top3 on a lot of lists. Since its so close, that might be enough for Lidstrom?
Personally, though, here is my question: if I'm Yandle, or Visnovsky, why am I playing on par with a 40 year old, and not better than him?
I think it is a great testament to how well he is playing that Lidstrom is even in this conversation about the Norris trophy at the end of his career. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 13:17:51
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Beans, seriously . . . when is your opinion not "in a landslide"?!?
C'mon, be real here. Even with Lidstrom's history, the voting is sure to be close between at least two of the nominees (Lidstrom, Yandle and Visnovsky perhaps at this point), the stats are all very close.
The only noticeable difference is that Lidstrom has a lower +/-, which suddenly doesn't count because it's Lidstrom. Totally useless stat now, apparently.
And, the power play points - Lidstrom has more of his points on the pp comparitively, and again, in the past that would be a knock against the defenceman, because it's Lidstrom, it doesn't matter.
Of his 14 goals and 41 assists at this point,
Lidstrom has 7 goals, 27 assists on the power play, compared with 7 goals, 14 assists even strength.
34 of his 55 points come from the power play . . . hey, does anyone remember that discussion about certain Norris nominees being power play specialists, and therefore they weren't relevant?
Anyone, Beans?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Where does my post say anything about +/- on this years players?? Where does my post have anything to do with PP points?? One could argue that all of the players listed (Yandle, Visnovsky, and Lidstrom) are all PP specials. But wait, I see one of them as a PK specialist as well.......
If you take the time to read my post again, you will notice that the main point behind my message was PK time. That has not effect on points (PP or otherwise) and no effect on +/-. It is quite simple a measure on how much a team (and coach) depend on a player defensively.
Lidstrom is one of his teams top defensive player and top penalty killers. The same can not be said about Yandle or Visnovsky. Maybe that is why Lidstrom does not have as many even strength points as the other two. Maybe he is too busy killing penalties and the other two are resting on the bench during penalties.
Point being, the Norris is the best Defensemen. Not best offensive or defensive. Best overall.
Anyone, Slozo???
I win this argument.
In a landslide. |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2011 : 14:34:15
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I could have predicted it. Took both in my pool. :P
Irvine/prez. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2011 : 09:51:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Beans, seriously . . . when is your opinion not "in a landslide"?!?
C'mon, be real here. Even with Lidstrom's history, the voting is sure to be close between at least two of the nominees (Lidstrom, Yandle and Visnovsky perhaps at this point), the stats are all very close.
The only noticeable difference is that Lidstrom has a lower +/-, which suddenly doesn't count because it's Lidstrom. Totally useless stat now, apparently.
And, the power play points - Lidstrom has more of his points on the pp comparitively, and again, in the past that would be a knock against the defenceman, because it's Lidstrom, it doesn't matter.
Of his 14 goals and 41 assists at this point,
Lidstrom has 7 goals, 27 assists on the power play, compared with 7 goals, 14 assists even strength.
34 of his 55 points come from the power play . . . hey, does anyone remember that discussion about certain Norris nominees being power play specialists, and therefore they weren't relevant?
Anyone, Beans?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Where does my post say anything about +/- on this years players?? Where does my post have anything to do with PP points?? One could argue that all of the players listed (Yandle, Visnovsky, and Lidstrom) are all PP specials. But wait, I see one of them as a PK specialist as well.......
If you take the time to read my post again, you will notice that the main point behind my message was PK time. That has not effect on points (PP or otherwise) and no effect on +/-. It is quite simple a measure on how much a team (and coach) depend on a player defensively.
Lidstrom is one of his teams top defensive player and top penalty killers. The same can not be said about Yandle or Visnovsky. Maybe that is why Lidstrom does not have as many even strength points as the other two. Maybe he is too busy killing penalties and the other two are resting on the bench during penalties.
Point being, the Norris is the best Defensemen. Not best offensive or defensive. Best overall.
Anyone, Slozo???
I win this argument.
In a landslide.
Exactly beans which is why it is not Lidstrom , Weaber is deffinetly the best overall defensman in my opinion this year and a few of my buddies and i were disscussing he could even be a MVP candidate Nashville is a lottery team without Weaber and Rinne ,, i mean he deffinetly will not be the MVP but he should fall into the disscussion, Weaber leaps and bound before Lidstrom in my opinion
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Yandle / Visnovsky - Norris Candidates? 
