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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2007 : 19:12:54
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quote:
[originally posted by babs]
Oh no. Oooooooh no. OOOOOOOOOH NO YOU DIDN'T!!! I know who you are now so you won't be hiding!
Ok, I'm going to stay brief on this because it is off topic. Miikka Kiprusoff has a Win% of 0.550. Let's see some goalies who have BETTER Win%'s:
Johan Holmqvist
Andrew Raycroft
Ray Emery
Martin Biron... To name a few. Yet Miikka Kiprusoff is considered an elite goalie and not one of these guys is? I couldn't care less about GAA and SV% because it's not wins, it's just side stats. Doesn't that spell overrated? Sure Nabokov has played badly the last two years and that's simply because he's not as good as he used to be, but he's still pretty good for a backup. Heck, he has two back-to-back shutouts and in 23 games less than Kippersucks, he has the same amount of SO, which happens to be 2nd-best in the league.
Don't get me started on comparing Toskala to Kippersucks. Toskala has the best Win% of any goalie IN THE LEAGUE, YEAH BETTER THAN BRODEUR AND LUONGO (0.686) and he gets no credit. I know he hasn't played as many games but he's been injured lately. He's still played 35 games, which means that it's no fluke that his record is so good, he can do it. Let's see how well Calgary does with McLennan in net 60% of the time, then you'll appreciate San Jose's goalie duo.
Souray blows.
Sorry babs.. I have to disagree with you here. Winning %, for the most part, is a team stat. While on the other hand, SV% is an individual goalie stat.
Of course this is generalized, based on the quality of the shots blah blah.. but a goalie's worth cannot be determined by wins alone. Look at Roy.. one of the most overrated tenders in history because of his wins column... 
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Edited by - bablaboushka on 03/07/2007 19:38:40
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 19:41:31
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How can you say that? Winning is why people play, if you don't win, you're not good enough it's that simple. Patrick Roy is one of the best goalies ever because he won so many games and he did it because he had talent. Kiprusoff is an average goalie with good stats.
Win% is in part a team stat but you have to admit that having a 0.550 Win% on CALGARY is actually pretty bad. Like Nabokov having < 0.500 with the Sharks. That's brutal. Kiprusoff should have at least 40 wins on the team he's playing behind. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 03/07/2007 19:41:51 |
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wyntyre
Rookie
Canada
185 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 20:45:43
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All goaltending stats are team based to a certain extent. I mean as a Goalie, if I don't get decent defense play from my team, it creates more chances...and that's where save percentage can be deceiving. Sure you wanna stop them all but how many 2 on 0 breakaways can you expect a goaltender to stop. Certain goaltenders need their team to play a certain way to keep them confident and effective. For example (because I watch almost every Flames game) Kipersoff has been pretty much the best goalie Calgary has ever had. But...when Dion and Roman run around like chickens with their heads cut off and Matt Lombardi is waiting for the outlet pass....he becomes Kiperseive. Take alook at most of the shootouts this year for Calgary...it always seems to me that Miikka needs a team in front of him and although he can make some outstanding stops, during most of the shootouts, he looks like he could care less. He can save a game for the team though. Vesa is a great goalie as well...as is Nabokov but each goalie differs in what they like the team to do in front of them because that way they have a much better idea of how to react to certain situations. I'm not the greatest goalie (I'm 5 foot 6) but on a two on one, I like my defense to take the shooter. most D are told to not do that, but I've always figured that if you take the shot away, the offense needs to make a good pass and if I know they're gonna pass I'm half way to getting to it by the time they even pass it.
so in reality, there is no pure goaltending stat...it 's ability to come up big when you need to...like...(I hate Patrick Roy but...) Roy in the playoffs (unfortunately mostly in '86), or Grant Fuhr with the Oilers in the countless 6-5 games, Mike Veron in the '89 playoffs, Arturs Irbe in the '94 playoffs, Domink Hasek in the 1998 Olympics, Ron Hextall in the '87 playoffs, Billy Smith for four consecutive years, and I remember Richard Brodeur being amazing in the '82 playoffs. And I will say Kiprusoff came up pretty big in '04...as did Khabibulin. The close games are what matter...and where a goalie can win a game or not. And also, because I remember it so well...Manny Legace in the '93 WJHC against the Swedes to get into the gold medal game...and Markus Ketterer agains Canda in the '91 Canada Cup against Canada 2 - 2...Ketterer was one the first great goalies from Finland...although he never made it to the NHL...he never wanted to.
Can't go...The Roads Are Dirty |
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the hockey guy
Rookie
Canada
135 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:13:39
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quote:
Originally posted by wyntyre
All goaltending stats are team based to a certain extent. I mean as a Goalie, if I don't get decent defense play from my team, it creates more chances...and that's where save percentage can be deceiving. Sure you wanna stop them all but how many 2 on 0 breakaways can you expect a goaltender to stop. Certain goaltenders need their team to play a certain way to keep them confident and effective. For example (because I watch almost every Flames game) Kipersoff has been pretty much the best goalie Calgary has ever had. But...when Dion and Roman run around like chickens with their heads cut off and Matt Lombardi is waiting for the outlet pass....he becomes Kiperseive. Take alook at most of the shootouts this year for Calgary...it always seems to me that Miikka needs a team in front of him and although he can make some outstanding stops, during most of the shootouts, he looks like he could care less. He can save a game for the team though. Vesa is a great goalie as well...as is Nabokov but each goalie differs in what they like the team to do in front of them because that way they have a much better idea of how to react to certain situations. I'm not the greatest goalie (I'm 5 foot 6) but on a two on one, I like my defense to take the shooter. most D are told to not do that, but I've always figured that if you take the shot away, the offense needs to make a good pass and if I know they're gonna pass I'm half way to getting to it by the time they even pass it.
so in reality, there is no pure goaltending stat...it 's ability to come up big when you need to...like...(I hate Patrick Roy but...) Roy in the playoffs (unfortunately mostly in '86), or Grant Fuhr with the Oilers in the countless 6-5 games, Mike Veron in the '89 playoffs, Arturs Irbe in the '94 playoffs, Domink Hasek in the 1998 Olympics, Ron Hextall in the '87 playoffs, Billy Smith for four consecutive years, and I remember Richard Brodeur being amazing in the '82 playoffs. And I will say Kiprusoff came up pretty big in '04...as did Khabibulin. The close games are what matter...and where a goalie can win a game or not. And also, because I remember it so well...Manny Legace in the '93 WJHC against the Swedes to get into the gold medal game...and Markus Ketterer agains Canda in the '91 Canada Cup against Canada 2 - 2...Ketterer was one the first great goalies from Finland...although he never made it to the NHL...he never wanted to.
Can't go...The Roads Are Dirty
Well put but a little long
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pucker
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:16:37
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| I have to agree that wins are a team stat. Dan Cloutier won 30 games for three straight seasons. He sucks. |
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jbraiter
PickupHockey Pro
577 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:19:58
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| worst goalie ever |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:25:18
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
How can you say that? Winning is why people play, if you don't win, you're not good enough it's that simple. Patrick Roy is one of the best goalies ever because he won so many games and he did it because he had talent. Kiprusoff is an average goalie with good stats.
Win% is in part a team stat but you have to admit that having a 0.550 Win% on CALGARY is actually pretty bad. Like Nabokov having < 0.500 with the Sharks. That's brutal. Kiprusoff should have at least 40 wins on the team he's playing behind.
Kipper is an average goalie? I dunno about that...he is elite...yea so he is having an off year...but SV% is more important to a goalie. Look at Luongo for example, he is considered among the elite in the NHL and has 153 Wins and 187 Loses in his career. It is cause of his SV% that he is looked at as being a elite. Winning is a team thing...but having a .930SV% and playing for Florida in 03-04, one of the worst teams, ofcourse you are gonna have a bad Win%. |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 15:35:20
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Ok, so what's Kiprusoff's excuse? His Win% is 0.550 on a GOOD team. That's pathetic to me. And the logical excuse would be that Calgary doesn't score well they have the 5th highest goals-per-game average in the NHL... How can you defend this guy? He had one and a half good years so he's proven nothing.
Shades of Jim Carey. |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 15:39:02
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| You're right babs he hasn't proven all that much...but I still see elite status in him. Would you rank him in the top 5 to say 7 goalies? I would. |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 15:47:51
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Here is how I would rank the best goalies in the league:
1. Brodeur (without question)
2. Luongo
3. Toskala
4. Vokoun
5. Miller
6. Fernandez
7. Giguere
8. Turco
9. Kiprusoff
10. Lehtonen
I don't want people saying "Oh he sucks why did you rank him there???". This is how I see them and is probably the order in which I would pick a goalie if I had the choice. Kiprusoff has elite POTENTIAL, but I would never consider him elite NOW. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 03/08/2007 15:49:56 |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 15:53:07
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Not a bad list babs. Here are my top 5:
1. Brodeur
2. Luongo
3. Kiprusoff
4. Miller
5. Vokoun |
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pucker
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 15:56:19
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
Here is how I would rank the best goalies in the league:
1. Brodeur (without question)
2. Luongo
3. Toskala
4. Vokoun
5. Miller
6. Fernandez
7. Giguere
8. Turco
9. Kiprusoff
10. Lehtonen
I don't want people saying "Oh he sucks why did you rank him there???". This is how I see them and is probably the order in which I would pick a goalie if I had the choice. Kiprusoff has elite POTENTIAL, but I would never consider him elite NOW.
I cant argue with this |
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semin-rules
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1915 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 17:12:50
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Here are my top 5:
1. Martin Brodeur
2. Dominik Hasek
3. E. Nabokov
4. Marty Turco
5. J.S Giguere
~~~~~GO STARS~~~~~ |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 17:17:52
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
Ok, so what's Kiprusoff's excuse? His Win% is 0.550 on a GOOD team. That's pathetic to me. And the logical excuse would be that Calgary doesn't score well they have the 5th highest goals-per-game average in the NHL... How can you defend this guy? He had one and a half good years so he's proven nothing. Shades of Jim Carey.
you're funny. a few months ago nothing mattered except the AMOUNT of wins. Now Kipper has more wins and better all around stats than your boys and now you're finding another argument to pick at, you should be careful because it's going to scab soon. Kipper is an amazing goalie who has struggled on and off this year (but somehow is still better than both Nabokov and Toskala)
Here are the facts:
Shutouts: 6 = 2nd
Wins: 33 = 3rd
SV% .919 = 6th
GAA: 2.37 = 9th (4th through 9th are all within 0.10 of each other)
In my opinion here are the 3 best in the league.
Luongo
Brodeur
Kiprusoff
Babs I did notice that you said that Calgary was a "GOOD" team though. It's about time. |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 17:24:09
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I don't bother arguing about Kipper vs Toskala vs Luongo, etc. Hasek is the best. He currently leads the NHL in GAA, and his career high SV% is higher than any I've seen here: .937. Plus his 6 Vezinas and consecutive Harts...
The only guy I'd say who is currently better is Brodeur. But back in the Dominator's prime time, he really was the Dominator. |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 17:43:35
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
Ok, so what's Kiprusoff's excuse? His Win% is 0.550 on a GOOD team. That's pathetic to me. And the logical excuse would be that Calgary doesn't score well they have the 5th highest goals-per-game average in the NHL... How can you defend this guy? He had one and a half good years so he's proven nothing. Shades of Jim Carey.
you're funny. a few months ago nothing mattered except the AMOUNT of wins. Now Kipper has more wins and better all around stats than your boys and now you're finding another argument to pick at, you should be careful because it's going to scab soon. Kipper is an amazing goalie who has struggled on and off this year (but somehow is still better than both Nabokov and Toskala)
Here are the facts:
Shutouts: 6 = 2nd
Wins: 33 = 3rd
SV% .919 = 6th
GAA: 2.37 = 9th (4th through 9th are all within 0.10 of each other)
In my opinion here are the 3 best in the league.
Luongo
Brodeur
Kiprusoff
Babs I did notice that you said that Calgary was a "GOOD" team though. It's about time.
Man...lol, wow. Ok:
I will just start with Kiprusoff is not as good as Toskala, period. Nabokov has blown chunks the last couple years, I will and have been the first to admit it. But Toskala, oh boy you're pushing it there.
I'm still only concerned about wins, why do you think I said:
quote:
I couldn't care less about GAA and SV% because it's not wins, it's just side stats.
All that matters is wins. Win% obviously factors into it because you could win 50 times in 500 games or win 40 times in 60 games, guess which is better? Kiprusoff does have the 3rd most wins in the league, but that's because he plays every bloody game. He's tied with Hasek with 33 wins, but Hasek has played 16 games less. He has just one more win than both Miller and Giguere, but they have played 10 and 11 games less respectively. He has just 9 more wins than Toskala in 25 MORE GAMES. THAT'S BRUTAL. AND, it's on Calgary, THAT'S EVEN WORSE!!!!! Yes Calgary is good, not great but good, I never denied that. Doesn't mean I don't hate them. I never brought up his other stats cause they don't mean a thing. You, however keep bringing them up because they ARE good stats, negligible as they are. I bet he also wears a size 12 skate, oh he must be an elite goalie now. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 03/08/2007 17:45:59 |
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jbraiter
PickupHockey Pro
577 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 20:17:14
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quote:
Originally posted by semin-rules
Here are my top 5:
1. Martin Brodeur
2. Dominik Hasek
3. E. Nabokov
4. Marty Turco
5. J.S Giguere
~~~~~GO STARS~~~~~
You forgot about Luongo |
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Saku Steen
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1102 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2007 : 04:01:16
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My List would be
Brodeur
Luongo
Turco
Gigure
Huet |
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Guest7282
( )
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Posted - 03/09/2007 : 09:10:52
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1. Darcy Wakaluk
2. Pete Peters
3. Troy Gamble
4. "Red Light" Racicot
5. Trevor Kidd
6. Peter Ing
7. Ron Tugnutt
8. Mark Fitzpatrick
9. Rick Wamsley
10. Roberto Luongo
Are my picks |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2007 : 10:13:01
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
Ok, so what's Kiprusoff's excuse? His Win% is 0.550 on a GOOD team. That's pathetic to me. And the logical excuse would be that Calgary doesn't score well they have the 5th highest goals-per-game average in the NHL... How can you defend this guy? He had one and a half good years so he's proven nothing. Shades of Jim Carey.
you're funny. a few months ago nothing mattered except the AMOUNT of wins. Now Kipper has more wins and better all around stats than your boys and now you're finding another argument to pick at, you should be careful because it's going to scab soon. Kipper is an amazing goalie who has struggled on and off this year (but somehow is still better than both Nabokov and Toskala)
Here are the facts:
Shutouts: 6 = 2nd
Wins: 33 = 3rd
SV% .919 = 6th
GAA: 2.37 = 9th (4th through 9th are all within 0.10 of each other)
In my opinion here are the 3 best in the league.
Luongo
Brodeur
Kiprusoff
Babs I did notice that you said that Calgary was a "GOOD" team though. It's about time.
Man...lol, wow. Ok:
I will just start with Kiprusoff is not as good as Toskala, period. Nabokov has blown chunks the last couple years, I will and have been the first to admit it. But Toskala, oh boy you're pushing it there.
I'm still only concerned about wins, why do you think I said:
quote:
I couldn't care less about GAA and SV% because it's not wins, it's just side stats.
All that matters is wins. Win% obviously factors into it because you could win 50 times in 500 games or win 40 times in 60 games, guess which is better? Kiprusoff does have the 3rd most wins in the league, but that's because he plays every bloody game. He's tied with Hasek with 33 wins, but Hasek has played 16 games less. He has just one more win than both Miller and Giguere, but they have played 10 and 11 games less respectively. He has just 9 more wins than Toskala in 25 MORE GAMES. THAT'S BRUTAL. AND, it's on Calgary, THAT'S EVEN WORSE!!!!! Yes Calgary is good, not great but good, I never denied that. Doesn't mean I don't hate them. I never brought up his other stats cause they don't mean a thing. You, however keep bringing them up because they ARE good stats, negligible as they are. I bet he also wears a size 12 skate, oh he must be an elite goalie now.
We could go on forever...in fact I think we have. Those stats that you say mean nothing, actually mean everything. No one stat tells all...including wins. All stats get skewed by the team in front of them so that is why you need to look at them all. Only then do you begin to see the whole picture. And besides, with all due respect, the NHl and hockey analysts everywhere disagree with you, otherwise they wouldn't keep track and no one would bring it up.
If you look at Kippers stats over the last few seasons he has been WAY above average. Including this year where he is clearly in the top 20% of the best goaltenders in the world.
I recall you rippiing on Calgary a lot (especially at the beginning of the season) but now that they are just a couple points back of the Sharks you are calling them "good" so you don't slander your team. Nice. Transparent, but nice.
Should we move this to anther thread babs? It's kind of misplaced now. What I mean is, we don't want one thread to talk about all things goalie. Let's be specific. |
Edited by - leigh on 03/09/2007 10:14:32 |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2007 : 10:56:23
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Well this thread is ok, we're still talking about the topic that started the thread...
Ok I will admit I did do my share of Calgary ripping-upage (oh yes). Most if not all of it was done at the start of the season. Since then, they have improved themselves (a little) and have gotten some outside help, including a couple ex-Sharks! Don't get me wrong, I'm not retracting my statement that said that they won't win the Cup, cause they won't (that's been my season-long guarantee).
All I'm saying is that Kiprusoff's "success" is way overblown, hence the reason I hate him, in fact I can't stand when hockey analysts talk about him because they sound like broken records. Sure, he is a good goalie, he's more "good" than "bad", I've never denied that. Ok fine, no ONE stat tells it all because it's a team sport, same thing goes with forwards and defensemen. But to me, the point of playing is to win and when you don't win, you're obviously doing something wrong. ESPECIALLY when you're playing behind a good team. I mean for God's sake the guy let in 6 goals last night.
Yeah I realize that I'm disagreeing with 99% of professional hockey analysts out there but what fun is it to always agree with them? A lot of those same guys who hail Kiprusoff also hail Calgary as a Stanley Cup favourite. Doesn't that seem a little contradictory to you? It does to me because if Kiprusoff is "so good", playing for a team that's "so good", shouldn't his record reflect it? Should he not have won more than 55% (actually now he's down to 54.1%) of his games? If Calgary can average 3.24 goals-for per-game, shouldn't that be enough for Kiprusoff to handle AT LEAST 60-65% of the time? I mean come on people, wake up and stop being brainwashed by the media. Do I sound familiar to you? Even though I hated his posts at first, at least I can see where the guy was coming from. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 03/09/2007 11:00:27 |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2007 : 12:07:31
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
All I'm saying is that Kiprusoff's "success" is way overblown, hence the reason I hate him...
Do you hear yourself? Do you realize that you hate a guy for being talked about a lot? I would submit that he is a very humble guy and rarely spaz's out or asks for the attention except by the performance of his solid play. He's not in everyone's face like Roy. He's not arrogant like Hasek. He doesn't chop people down like Belfour. He's not know as a diver. He takes pride in what he does and he does it well.
As for the Flames being hailed as favourites, that's not the case anymore and hasn't been since the first face off of the season. They wen't into a slump right off the bat and the "experts" recoiled pretty damn fast. The Sharks however are considered solid contenders by the media right now BUT their only negative is their goaltending. |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2007 : 12:32:10
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I never questioned Kiprusoff's huimilty, in fact he doesn't have much to be humble about this year anyways. And yeah I don't like him for the same reason IHC hates Crosby, waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much media attention.
SJ's only negative may be seen as goaltending now but few remember that SJ's weaker goalie has played every game since Valentine's Day. Wait until Toskala comes back. They might alternate again until the end of the season but just wait until the playoffs, it will be Toskala who will lead them to the Cup. |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 19:00:35
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| Lehtonen is great and getting greater. Luongo is the next Roy/Brodeur.Kipprusoff is going downhill in terms of consistency. The Leafs are going to regret losing Tuukka Rask for Raycroft. M.A. Fleury will win a Conn Smythe. Hasek is done once Detroit gets eliminated.Ray Emery will one day get a lifetime ban and join the UFC. I like Cam Ward because he's from Sherwood Park, Alberta, like me, but other than that, I have nothing good to say about him. Ryan Miller is scary good. I hope to God that Dubnyk shows up 'cause Roli ain't cuttin' it right now. |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 19:05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
...but few remember that SJ's weaker goalie has played every game since Valentine's Day. Wait until Toskala comes back.
That's very debatable Babs... I wasnt aware that Toskala was even considered the #1 at this time (he was the one that they were shopping at last years' deadline). Either way, they are both decent goalies, but i'm not sure there is that much difference between the two of them. |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2007 : 10:07:26
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Their combined records for this season and last:
Nabokov:
33-35-9
SV%: .897
GAA: 2.73
SO: 8
Toskala:
47-16-5
SV%: .903
GAA: 2.51
SO: 5
This all once again proves my point. Stats don't matter, it's the record that says it all.
Toskala was wanted by so many teams because he's only making about $1.3 million/year. Nabokov is making $5 million/year. Look at those records and look at the paychecks and tell me who you want more. To me, Toskala has the BEST value in the league for a goalie. |
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Topic |
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Goalies Goalies Goalies 
