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Guest2612
( )

Posted - 04/07/2008 :  13:37:01  Reply with Quote
I think we should take this question instead.... who is the more gifted player...right there is your answer.. mario lemieux. he began his junior 282 points when he was away for 3years came back and did 35g 41a in 43 games that was better then gretzky in his last season 9 g 53 a in 98-99. at 70 games.first mario didn`t play for 3 years and he had more points in less games. he deserves to be a better player.
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Guest9986
( )

Posted - 04/07/2008 :  14:51:18  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2612

I think we should take this question instead.... who is the more gifted player...right there is your answer.. mario lemieux. he began his junior 282 points when he was away for 3years came back and did 35g 41a in 43 games that was better then gretzky in his last season 9 g 53 a in 98-99. at 70 games.first mario didn`t play for 3 years and he had more points in less games. he deserves to be a better player.


Are you asking who was the better player in their late 30s or who was the better player at their peak? I would rather look at who was better at their peak.

Secondly, I agree that Lemieux was more physically talented. He was probably the best one on one player in history. Was he better though? Hockey is a game of six on six. As such, I I would say no, Lemieux wasn't better. Gretzky better utilized all six players than did Lemieux. Thus I would say Gretzky had better vision than Lemieux. So was Lemieux more girfted, as you say? Perhaps physically. But in terms of vision? Gretzky was more gifted. In whatever ways Gretzky was lacking physically, he more than made up for with a vision never before or since duplicated.
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Guest9986
( )

Posted - 04/07/2008 :  14:51:59  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2612

I think we should take this question instead.... who is the more gifted player...right there is your answer.. mario lemieux. he began his junior 282 points when he was away for 3years came back and did 35g 41a in 43 games that was better then gretzky in his last season 9 g 53 a in 98-99. at 70 games.first mario didn`t play for 3 years and he had more points in less games. he deserves to be a better player.


Are you asking who was the better player in their late 30s or who was the better player at their peak? I would rather look at who was better at their peak.

Secondly, I agree that Lemieux was more physically talented. He was probably the best one on one player in history. Was he better though? Hockey is a game of six on six. As such, I I would say no, Lemieux wasn't better. Gretzky better utilized all six players than did Lemieux. Thus I would say Gretzky had better vision than Lemieux. So was Lemieux more girfted, as you say? Perhaps physically. But in terms of vision? Gretzky was more gifted. In whatever ways Gretzky was lacking physically, he more than made up for with a vision never before or since duplicated.
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Guest9986
( )

Posted - 04/07/2008 :  15:07:01  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2612

guss 9986... yes he finished with mor ppg. If you would play in a team with all superstars would you make more point that if u play with a team that has no superstars?I know that when i play in a good team i make more points and that is for everyone i think.


Wait just one second, here. You just said that Pittsburgh was a team that had "no superstars." Is that what you meant to say? I really hope not. Jagr, Coffey, Stevens, Mullen, Francis, etc may take issue with that.

If you look at the number of years Gretzky actually played with superstar players, you might be suprised. Would it suprise you if you learned it was for less than half of his career? Would it suprise you even more if it turned out to be for only about 1/3 of his career? Check out the rosters of the first couple years in Edmonton. Check out who Gretzky was playing with during his first 2 or 3 Hart Trophy seasons in Edmonton. Also note that by the time the Oilers got really good, Gretzky only had a few years left with them, during which he won 4 cups in 5 years. Also note he was only 26 years old when he was traded to Los Angeles, which happened to be the 4th WORST team in the NHL at the time.

The players on the Oilers became superstars along WITH Gretzky, not before. Gretzky was the only player who was a superstar straight away (he entered the NHL as a superstar). Many would agree that it was because of Gretzky's leadership that those players reached the level they did. I really don't think Kurri or Coffey would have had nearly the same successs without Gretzky. As for Messier, he played primarily on a different line regardless.
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Guest2612
( )

Posted - 04/07/2008 :  15:53:39  Reply with Quote
guess 9986...i am just sayong what people say here (tsn) Do you realise that playing with a bad back for 8 years and do all thoes points? my friend was 6foot 2 and had a bad back like him and don`t worry he knows what it is to have that. And by the way lemieux didn`t play for 3 years not 3 days or 3 months....3 years do you realise that? some stars go out for 2month and thay are rusted. All i am saying here is if he would`ve been in a better shape and passed all the team that gretzky did. he would`ve or be so damn close to beat him.But then again points don`t mean anything. I am not telling bad of gretzky too. He was a realy good player but he was also in better shap then lemieux. Believe me if u knew you had cancer you would probably know what he was passing thrue. You will say oh he just had canser for 6 weeks we know that but it`s still cancer everyone know it always comes back one way or the other. So yes i thing hen he was playing he was still thinking of it even to the end of his career. And i am sure it still bothers him today but he doesn`t talk about it.
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Guest9986
( )

Posted - 04/07/2008 :  17:09:34  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2612

guess 9986...i am just sayong what people say here (tsn) Do you realise that playing with a bad back for 8 years and do all thoes points? my friend was 6foot 2 and had a bad back like him and don`t worry he knows what it is to have that. And by the way lemieux didn`t play for 3 years not 3 days or 3 months....3 years do you realise that? some stars go out for 2month and thay are rusted. All i am saying here is if he would`ve been in a better shape and passed all the team that gretzky did. he would`ve or be so damn close to beat him.But then again points don`t mean anything. I am not telling bad of gretzky too. He was a realy good player but he was also in better shap then lemieux. Believe me if u knew you had cancer you would probably know what he was passing thrue. You will say oh he just had canser for 6 weeks we know that but it`s still cancer everyone know it always comes back one way or the other. So yes i thing hen he was playing he was still thinking of it even to the end of his career. And i am sure it still bothers him today but he doesn`t talk about it.


What Lemieux was able to do with a bad back and cancer is remarkable. No one can deny that; I agree with you. I sometimes wonder, how many more points Gretzky could have had if he had avoided the Gary Suter hit in the 1991 Canada Cup. Gretzky was never the same after that hit, and his production dropped from about 2 plus points per game to about 1.6 overnight....and then the gradual decline as he got older. He never fully recovered from that injury. Without that Gary Suter hit, Gretzky would have finished with easily 3000 + regular season points, probably around 3200! But it wasn't meant to be...just like it wasn't for Lemieux.

Both were very special players. Lemieux had the more jaw dropping physical gifts...and was by far the greatest one on one player of all time. Gretzky was more productive due to his otherwordly vision. It was as though his molecules vibrated at exactly the same speed as a hockey game. I guess all those years as a kid tracing on a piece of paper the patterns of where the puck was going while waching Hockey Night in Canada must really paid off. Go to where the puck is going, not where it's been became as natural as breathing to Gretzky.

I guess in the end it's what you appreciate more as a fan. The artistry of using an entire team, the vision that it takes to do that....or do you appreciate more the skills of undressing a player one on one...and all the moves that come with it. Both players and elements of both. Wayne had more of the former and Lemieux had more of the latter. You may prefer the former. I just prefer the latter. Who was the more productive player and more mentally talented? Gretzky. Who was more physically talented? Lemieux.

Desipite Lemieux's physical gifts, I still found Gretzky more fascinating to watch...and thus more exciting. Different strokes for different folks...
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Guest9986
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Posted - 04/07/2008 :  17:11:55  Reply with Quote
Meant to say you may prefer the latter and I prefer the former! LOL
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2008 :  19:58:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9986
Wait just one second, here. You just said that Pittsburgh was a team that had "no superstars." Is that what you meant to say? I really hope not. Jagr, Coffey, Stevens, Mullen, Francis, etc may take issue with that.

If you look at the number of years Gretzky actually played with superstar players, you might be suprised. Would it suprise you if you learned it was for less than half of his career? Would it suprise you even more if it turned out to be for only about 1/3 of his career? Check out the rosters of the first couple years in Edmonton. Check out who Gretzky was playing with during his first 2 or 3 Hart Trophy seasons in Edmonton. Also note that by the time the Oilers got really good, Gretzky only had a few years left with them, during which he won 4 cups in 5 years. Also note he was only 26 years old when he was traded to Los Angeles, which happened to be the 4th WORST team in the NHL at the time.

The players on the Oilers became superstars along WITH Gretzky, not before. Gretzky was the only player who was a superstar straight away (he entered the NHL as a superstar). Many would agree that it was because of Gretzky's leadership that those players reached the level they did. I really don't think Kurri or Coffey would have had nearly the same successs without Gretzky. As for Messier, he played primarily on a different line regardless.



I see the general point that Gretzky didn't always play on great teams either, but let's agree on this point - Gretzky played for quite a number of years on a tremendous team which was by comparison at least a step up on Lemieux's very good Penguin teams in the early 90s.

A few things which come to mind in that connection:

1. Coffey was more than a step better in his Oiler years than later on - he was still very good on the Pens, but not as great. And with his speed and skating ability, I think he would have still been a superstar without Wayne (maybe not as many points, yes, but still very, very impressive, probably still a step up on Bourque's totals for example).

2. Guest 9986 is doing something that I think many do - not giving enough credit to the positive impact that having Messier on that other line had for Gretzky. There was a wave effect with that team. After getting pounded, intimidated, outskated or whatever from Messier, the opponent then had to deal with Gretzky. It worked both ways of course, but do not underestimate the value that Gretzky gained by playing on the same team with the guy we have voted the 4th best player of the last 40 years. Mario played with some great players on his team too, but think about it, there is an argument that two out of three of the best forwards of the last forty years played on that Oilers team. Some might say you can make the same argument for Mario and Yammy J, but I think that is the glitzy talent of Jagr seducing people's thinking. People are going to accuse me of overrating Messier again I guess, but I'll throw it back the other way - don't underrate the value that the young Mess (before the post Gretzky heroics, before the NY story) brought to those championship teams for the Oilers. Again, Mark, not Wayne, was the key to Cup Number 1 that got it all started for them.

3. The point about Gretzky only playing for a "few" years on really good Oilers team is more than a bit overstated. They were arguably already bordering on great, talent-wise anyway, in 81/'82, but just hadn't learnt how to win yet. So he had a good 7 seasons surrounded by a tremendous cast in Edmonton. In that connection, yes, of course Kurri, Anderson, Tikkanen and others benefitted greatly from Wayne, but lets not kid ourselves, they were all very good players in their own right and very likely would still have had fine careers had they never met Wayne Gretzky.

Don't get me wrong. I know that Mario played with some very good players too. Kevin Stevens was a very strong left winger for a few years there. Francis was an excellent second center. And despite my point earlier, I of course know Yammy was a huge help. BUT if you are doing a checklist in this analysis and there is a category "Who benefitted more from the great players around him", I think Wayne gets the checkmark in that box here, particularly if we are talking about the periods when they were between 20 and 25.

Edited by - andyhack on 04/07/2008 20:00:54
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Guest2612
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Posted - 04/07/2008 :  21:03:09  Reply with Quote
I don`t know if u guys saw mario in i think it was the winter games where he did that fake shot and iginla scored. Well i think it iginla. Wasn`t that a good play maker? the final in canada 87 who made the last play? mario lemieux. Did u saw the move? That was him making the play on that last goal. And again it was a very important one.Wasn`t that a good play maker? And tell me this when gretzky and lemieux was playing in the nhl all star, in the skill competition why were they the one`s that passed the puck to the shooter for the 4 corners? Well i was watching the competition and they said because they were the 2 best passers in the nhl.What i am telling here is i know that gretzky was a better playmaker but lemieux was verrrrry good too. And yes lemieux was the best skiled player.But u can`t say that lemieux wasn`t a great playmaker.If u put mario and gretzky in a team today. I am telling u he would beat gretzky in point in a year.Why? because lemieux got back from 3 year without playing and came out with 35g and 41a 76 points in 43 games in 00 -01 that was the year after when gretzky finished in 98-99 with 9g 53a 62 points in 70 games. At the end you see who was the most gifted player.He started gifted in major league and finished gifted.You guys gonna say yes but he finished in 05-06 with just 22 points.well that was just in 26 games. Almost 1 point per game.If he would`ve played 82games that would be close to... i would say maybe close to 75 points.You know there is one thing that bothers me lol. why didn`t he reach 700 goals. I mean come on 10 more to go.....what the???And i still wonder i don`t know if u guys can help me on this stats.... If he would`ve done 700g in lets say 10 games.maybe more maybe less...would`ve he reach 700g before gretzky? I know lemieux was the second fastest to reach 500g after gretzky but i never heard for the 600g and if he would whent to 700...
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2008 :  22:40:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just wanted to chime in on something here.

Lemieux had some physical gifts. That can not be denied. He was big, strong, and fast. The could fight through traffic, and it doesn't hurt being 6'4" and 200+ lbs.(Some sites have him as high as 235lbs)

So ask yourself this:

What physical gifts did Gretzky have??

Speed, not really.

Size - 6'0" and 185 lbs is not big now and was not big in the 80's either.

Strength - Not at all.

And yet, without the physical attributes that most would define as assets for hockey, he was able to produce the highest offensive production in history, win Cups, make the players around him better, and the ability to miss only 8 games in the first 8 years of his NHL career and finish his career with an average of 74 games played per year. This does not include the years which he played 15 or more play off games after those 75 regular season games.


Wonder how he did that being a skinny, weak, wimpy kid????
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Guest2612
( )

Posted - 04/07/2008 :  23:02:06  Reply with Quote
bean... that is called respect.No one wanted to kill him hehe cause they knew they were gonna be beat and a verrrry big penality.
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Guest2612
( )

Posted - 04/07/2008 :  23:05:01  Reply with Quote
bean....You know crosby? Well if someone cheap shot him... He better run cause laraque will find him. And if a guy like crosby get a cheap shot the hnl will take it well in hand trust me.
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Guest9997
( )

Posted - 04/08/2008 :  15:29:44  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2612

I don`t know if u guys saw mario in i think it was the winter games where he did that fake shot and iginla scored. Well i think it iginla. Wasn`t that a good play maker? the final in canada 87 who made the last play? mario lemieux. Did u saw the move? That was him making the play on that last goal. And again it was a very important one.Wasn`t that a good play maker? And tell me this when gretzky and lemieux was playing in the nhl all star, in the skill competition why were they the one`s that passed the puck to the shooter for the 4 corners? Well i was watching the competition and they said because they were the 2 best passers in the nhl.What i am telling here is i know that gretzky was a better playmaker but lemieux was verrrrry good too. And yes lemieux was the best skiled player.But u can`t say that lemieux wasn`t a great playmaker.If u put mario and gretzky in a team today. I am telling u he would beat gretzky in point in a year.Why? because lemieux got back from 3 year without playing and came out with 35g and 41a 76 points in 43 games in 00 -01 that was the year after when gretzky finished in 98-99 with 9g 53a 62 points in 70 games. At the end you see who was the most gifted player.He started gifted in major league and finished gifted.You guys gonna say yes but he finished in 05-06 with just 22 points.well that was just in 26 games. Almost 1 point per game.If he would`ve played 82games that would be close to... i would say maybe close to 75 points.You know there is one thing that bothers me lol. why didn`t he reach 700 goals. I mean come on 10 more to go.....what the???And i still wonder i don`t know if u guys can help me on this stats.... If he would`ve done 700g in lets say 10 games.maybe more maybe less...would`ve he reach 700g before gretzky? I know lemieux was the second fastest to reach 500g after gretzky but i never heard for the 600g and if he would whent to 700...


Why are you using Gretzky's last season as an example, when he was 38 years old? Why not use his 2nd last season, when he was 37 and finished 4th in NHL scoring? That season Gretzky had scored more points than any other player (including Jagr) from the Christmas break to the end of the season. Fact.

Secondly, who cares about Gretzky's post prime years. How about when Gretzky was 25 and playing with Lemieux in the 1987 Canada Cup? Both players, playing together not just on the same team, but quite often on the same line. Gretzky 21 points, Lemieux 18.

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Guest2612
( )

Posted - 04/08/2008 :  15:55:44  Reply with Quote
guess 9997.. I hope u don`t juge a player to be better in a couple of games? If you want to juge both players at least give them a chance to play at lease half of a season. Lemieux was almost a rookie when he went for the 87 cup.Just 3 years after he got drafted.And why did i put gretzky`s last season,,,because it was a year before lemieux`s come back from a 3 years and half. OK here i`ll make u a favour..Let`s take gretsky`s second last game.97-98....82games.23g 67a total of 90 points...Now let`s take mario when he last played at least a half season...02-03...67games...28g 63a...total of 91 points. in 15 less games mario beated him.
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fanatic1
Top Prospect



USA
2 Posts

Posted - 04/08/2008 :  22:43:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This will probably anger the hockey gods but Lemieux was the better player. It really comes down to the old saying, "A good big guy always beats a good small guy". It really is ashame that Lemieux couldn't stay healthy and play longer.
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Guest2047
( )

Posted - 04/09/2008 :  04:05:41  Reply with Quote
Not a good argument... Lemieux was a very big man, but played like a skilled small guy.

quote:
Originally posted by fanatic1

This will probably anger the hockey gods but Lemieux was the better player. It really comes down to the old saying, "A good big guy always beats a good small guy". It really is ashame that Lemieux couldn't stay healthy and play longer.

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Guest7858
( )

Posted - 04/09/2008 :  10:24:51  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willus3

I give the nod to Lemieux for peak value. For all intents and purposes their PPG is essentially equal. So ruling out stats, my reasoning for choosing Lemieux is that he was better at more. He had to endure far more from inferior players( hacking, slashing, clutching, grabbing) and still was able to put up amazing numbers. He never had the luxury of an enforcer. He could hit, and even on occasion fight (while not looking like a pansy). Lemieux was also a far superior skater and while Gretzky's hands were excellent, I have never seen anyone with softer hands than Mario. Oh, and he was better on breakaways.



Their PPG were almost equal but don't forget the more game you play the lower your PPG. I'm sure Gretzky's PPG was much higher than Lemieux after 915 games. When people ask me who's better the only thing i can say is What has Mario ever done that Gretzky hasn't? I cant think of anything... What has Gretzky done that Mario hasn't? Scored 92 goals, over 200 pts 4 TIMES!,165 assists,4 stanley cups, etc etc...
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Guest2761
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Posted - 04/09/2008 :  11:17:14  Reply with Quote
Guest 9997 still din`t replied.....lol
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Guest9975
( )

Posted - 04/09/2008 :  13:21:00  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2612

guess 9997.. I hope u don`t juge a player to be better in a couple of games? If you want to juge both players at least give them a chance to play at lease half of a season. Lemieux was almost a rookie when he went for the 87 cup.Just 3 years after he got drafted.And why did i put gretzky`s last season,,,because it was a year before lemieux`s come back from a 3 years and half. OK here i`ll make u a favour..Let`s take gretsky`s second last game.97-98....82games.23g 67a total of 90 points...Now let`s take mario when he last played at least a half season...02-03...67games...28g 63a...total of 91 points. in 15 less games mario beated him.


Again, why are you using Gretzky's post prime years? Because it suites your argument? Isn't it better to look at their prime years?

You mention Lemieux was almost a rookie when he played in the 1987 Canada Cup. He had already been playing for THREE years! How old was Lemieux in the 1987 Canada Cup? 21, right? Let's see what Gretzky was up to when he was 21 years old... Just won his 4th Hart Trophy in a row, had just scored a record 212 points, had just scored 92 goals, including 50 in 39 games.... Oh, and just after, was the scoring leader of the 1984 Canada Cup!
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Guest9975
( )

Posted - 04/09/2008 :  13:26:02  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2761

Guest 9997 still din`t replied.....lol


Just did. (lol)
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Guest9975
( )

Posted - 04/09/2008 :  13:33:17  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fanatic1

This will probably anger the hockey gods but Lemieux was the better player. It really comes down to the old saying, "A good big guy always beats a good small guy". It really is ashame that Lemieux couldn't stay healthy and play longer.


"A good big guy always beats a good small guy"

Unless it's Wayne Gretzky... History tends to be on his side on this one. Lemieux never approched Gretzky's playoff PPG average, in any single playoffs or career.
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Guest2761
( )

Posted - 04/09/2008 :  14:26:56  Reply with Quote
i meant guest 9997. I don`t care about the ppg.
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Guest9960
( )

Posted - 04/09/2008 :  18:43:09  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2761

i meant guest 9997. I don`t care about the ppg.


Same guest, formerly username 9997 here. You many not care about PPG average, but come playoff time, it sure helps. Besides, what about what Gretzky had accomplished by the time he was 21 vs. Lemieux at 21? Age can surely be no excuse when Gretzky already had three of four Hart Trophies in the bag, and a myriad of records, by the same age.
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Guest2761
( )

Posted - 04/09/2008 :  19:51:24  Reply with Quote
Gst 9960..Put yourself in the badest team in the nhl today and i`ll go play in the best team. Who do you think will make more points? If we would be both gifted players of course hehe. I think i will win by far.
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Guest7858
( )

Posted - 04/10/2008 :  08:27:43  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2761

Gst 9960..Put yourself in the badest team in the nhl today and i`ll go play in the best team. Who do you think will make more points? If we would be both gifted players of course hehe. I think i will win by far.




Gretzky turned Bernie Nicholls into a 70 goal scorer! lol nuff said
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Guest7858
( )

Posted - 04/10/2008 :  08:28:16  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2761

Gst 9960..Put yourself in the badest team in the nhl today and i`ll go play in the best team. Who do you think will make more points? If we would be both gifted players of course hehe. I think i will win by far.




Gretzky turned Bernie Nicholls into a 70 goal scorer! lol nuff said

(i'm not guest 9960)
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Guest2761
( )

Posted - 04/10/2008 :  09:07:50  Reply with Quote
Guest 7858...Who made jarg a good player? mario. Even jagr said it. Even in today`s game he is still good.Not as good as lemieux was at that age but remember that lemieux was the most gifted player in the nhl. and yes most gifted ever. You don`t believe me? Go buy the dvd icehot 1.Made by the nhl. They say it in there.He had a gift of life and people u have to stop being selfish just because lemieux was french.Totaly unfaire.Mario started in major league gifted and he finished gifted. Took 3year and came back with 35g 41a in 43 games.Gifted gifted gifted. He was 6 weeks away for a cancer treatment came back and win in points. Ovechkin is a good player today no? And i am prety sure that if he would missed 6weeks he would`t finish first this year. I don`t know about your (nuff said) But i hope gretzky made him a 70 goal scorer cause he was gifted too.But that doeasn`t make gretzky the better player.
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Guest7858
( )

Posted - 04/10/2008 :  09:22:46  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2761

Guest 7858...Who made jarg a good player? mario. Even jagr said it. Even in today`s game he is still good.Not as good as lemieux was at that age but remember that lemieux was the most gifted player in the nhl. and yes most gifted ever. You don`t believe me? Go buy the dvd icehot 1.Made by the nhl. They say it in there.He had a gift of life and people u have to stop being selfish just because lemieux was french.Totaly unfaire.Mario started in major league gifted and he finished gifted. Took 3year and came back with 35g 41a in 43 games.Gifted gifted gifted. He was 6 weeks away for a cancer treatment came back and win in points. Ovechkin is a good player today no? And i am prety sure that if he would missed 6weeks he would`t finish first this year. I don`t know about your (nuff said) But i hope gretzky made him a 70 goal scorer cause he was gifted too.But that doeasn`t make gretzky the better player.



(Guest 785 here)First of all this has nothing to do with him being french (im from montreal). And second of all i think Lemieux was an AMAZING player! The thing is people always say "if" Mario was healthy he would pass Gretzky. How can anyone say that? Gretzky was fortunate to have a healthy career and there are no "ifs" with him. He has done what nobody has even come close to doing(except maybe Mario). I'm not knocking Lemieux at all, Like i said before he was amazing, one of the greatest. But the GREATEST of all time is "The Great One"
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Guest2761
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Posted - 04/10/2008 :  10:05:30  Reply with Quote
guest 7858....Yes u might say that...But i always stand about my fact that it`s the evoluton of players.U can start at the beginning where howe was the best. then gretzky. Then lemieux came. Now these days it`s crosby.So yes gretzky was better then howe. lemieux was better then both but crosby is better then the 3 of thoes.Not because He don`t have much point and don``t have any records.Because the trainer are better they have hockey school these days.They have jym where they can train hard everyday. Ect ect.You put crosby in those days he would be like a robot..More like a point machine. But if u put let`s say howe in these days with his ability in those days. He would have a hard time doing what a normal player would do in our days.Of course if he was born in our days he may be as good as crosby but it`s just we have to face the real fact we can`t go back in time.And players in the old time can`t come in the present.Yes they were good talented player in those time...But let`s face it.We are in 08..And it`s hard these days to put some points in.Who got 100 and more points this year? 2....I can put maybe 3 in here .. I am almost sure that if crosby woul have been healty he would at least reach 100 points..But thats about it. Again in order.No 1 player crosby. no 2 lemieux no 3 gretzky no 4 howe.It`s just the reality guys.EVOLUTION!!!!
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Guest2761
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Posted - 04/10/2008 :  10:37:42  Reply with Quote
Let`` do this... howe was the best in the 50`s and 60`s.orr was the best in the 70`s ,gretzky was the best in 80`s mario in the 90`s In the 00`s well their may be a war against crosby and ovechkin.But I say that crosby will win because he has a verry good team. They even compare pittsburgh as the oilers when gretzky was in. A team loaded with superstars.The only thing is they say pitts doesn`t have a good doaltender as the oilers did.
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Guest7858
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Posted - 04/10/2008 :  11:42:37  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2761

guest 7858....Yes u might say that...But i always stand about my fact that it`s the evoluton of players.U can start at the beginning where howe was the best. then gretzky. Then lemieux came. Now these days it`s crosby.So yes gretzky was better then howe. lemieux was better then both but crosby is better then the 3 of thoes.Not because He don`t have much point and don``t have any records.Because the trainer are better they have hockey school these days.They have jym where they can train hard everyday. Ect ect.You put crosby in those days he would be like a robot..More like a point machine. But if u put let`s say howe in these days with his ability in those days. He would have a hard time doing what a normal player would do in our days.Of course if he was born in our days he may be as good as crosby but it`s just we have to face the real fact we can`t go back in time.And players in the old time can`t come in the present.Yes they were good talented player in those time...But let`s face it.We are in 08..And it`s hard these days to put some points in.Who got 100 and more points this year? 2....I can put maybe 3 in here .. I am almost sure that if crosby woul have been healty he would at least reach 100 points..But thats about it. Again in order.No 1 player crosby. no 2 lemieux no 3 gretzky no 4 howe.It`s just the reality guys.EVOLUTION!!!!



Its funny you say only 2 players 100 pots and if crosby was healthy 3. How many got 200 points in 1981? 1 player GRETZKY...200 points in 1983? 1 player GRETZKY... 200 points in 1984 1 player GRETZKY etc... etc.... If the reason Gretzky got so many points in those years was because scoring was high, than why didn't anybody else even come close to Gretzky? Nobody has done what Gretzky has done. Nobody.
no.1 Gretzky no.2 Lemieux no.3 ???
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Guest2761
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Posted - 04/10/2008 :  12:34:55  Reply with Quote
Guest 7858 do you think that if mario would`ve began with a team like the oiler that he wouldn`t had 200 pts?And stay with a team like that for a couple of years like gretzy did?If you say no to that well you don`t know mario well anouf.And just to let u know that lemieux was already a better player then gretsky in 87`88...while mario was still in a bad team and gretzky was in the best team in hockey.
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Guest2761
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Posted - 04/10/2008 :  12:48:20  Reply with Quote
And for answer your question about why he was the only player to have 200 points... It`s because he was the best gifted player in that time. IN THAT TIME!!!!! I am not saying he wasn`t a great player.He was not normal thats for sure...I can even say he was above all the others but again in THAT TIME. Of course in the 90`s the goalie equipment whent from very smal to verry big.That was the lemieux era...But still puted lots of points.We won`t even see 160 point anymore so....we have to face that fact. Do you imagine a goalie equiped like the 80`s in todays game? He would get killed. The players are so fast these days and so strong.And again it is called the evolution. Player just keep going better and better.True fact every nhl pro says it.I can`t go wrong when i say that lemieux was beter then gretzky and crosby is and will be beter then both.Oh i am sure that if lemieux would return he would beat some of the nhl players But not guys like crosby or ovechkin.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2008 :  15:47:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest7858
Gretzky turned Bernie Nicholls into a 70 goal scorer! lol nuff said



Every time this line comes up I feel compelled, as a founding member of the "BERNIE NICHOLLS WAS NOT MADE BY WAYNE GRETZKY" fan club, to remind people out there (especially the youngsters reading these lines who don't know any better) that Bernie Nicholls was far from a slouch before he met Wayne Gretzky. He put up two 40 goal plus seasons, a 100 point season and a couple of 30 goal plus seasons before Wayne came on the scene.

I know - I know - 70 equals more than 30 times 2 - Wayne had a huge effect on that 70 goal total, yada yada yada. That point is understood.
BUT, the way that sentence above must sound to one of the young guys on this site is that Gretzky turned an untalented clown with no ability into a 70 goal scorer.

I've said it half jokingly before, but I'm starting to believe it more and more. Bernie Nicholls would have ended up being more respected historically as a player had he never played with Wayne Gretzky. Far from Gretzky making his reputation, he ruined it.


Edited by - andyhack on 04/10/2008 15:50:54
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2008 :  17:45:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, I have to say this as Andy and I never agree, but with this I completely agree.

I will never disagree that Nichols improved with Gretzky. I don't think there was a single player who ever played with Gretzky that did not improve.

However, the guy was far from a bag of pucks. Even if you take that 150 point, 70 goal season out and make it the same as his other seasons around that were, he was still a point a game player in almost 1200 games and still has over 450 goals.

That is far from a bag of pucks. And Andy is exactly correct when he says that although Gretzky improved Nichols' production, he tarnished his image.
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Guest1271
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Posted - 04/10/2008 :  18:17:04  Reply with Quote
hard to say who was better. nobody could pass like gretzky or even come close. lemieux was pretty slick though and did have an injury plagued career. i guess i would have to go with the great one though for the all time best. however it was pretty neat to have the 2 of them play together in the canada cup and we all know how that turned out.
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Guest4130
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Posted - 04/10/2008 :  19:25:23  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2761

Let`` do this... howe was the best in the 50`s and 60`s.orr was the best in the 70`s ,gretzky was the best in 80`s mario in the 90`s In the 00`s well their may be a war against crosby and ovechkin.But I say that crosby will win because he has a verry good team. They even compare pittsburgh as the oilers when gretzky was in. A team loaded with superstars.The only thing is they say pitts doesn`t have a good doaltender as the oilers did.

I find it funny that you would say Cros is better than Ovechkin because he has a very good team, but then use the reverse logic to say that Mario was better because Gretzky played on the better team. Your logic makes George dub-yah Bush sound like a Vulcan.
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Guest7936
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Posted - 04/10/2008 :  20:01:22  Reply with Quote
Guest 4130...Where did i say he was better? i just said he will win in point cause he has a good team..
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Guest7936
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Posted - 04/10/2008 :  20:09:52  Reply with Quote
It`s a litle too early to juge those too... Let them a couple more years....Then we will see.
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Guest7936
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Posted - 04/10/2008 :  23:12:21  Reply with Quote
Because some players can do lots of points in their first few years and then crash....Exemple selane.Not that he ain`t good but i was expecting more when he beated the more goals for his first season record.But we don`t hear from him anymore.But in a way crosby did proove himself more in the major hockey.So yeah i think it will be a war between those 2.
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