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umteman
PickupHockey Pro
USA
662 Posts |
 Posted - 02/02/2010 : 05:44:19
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An excellent, entertaining game vs. Buffalo last night. The Sabres had me in a funk taking an early 3 - 1 lead but it only served to light a fire under the Pens. Sid put up a hat trick in the second period and now has 37 goals, tied for the league lead, and only two less than his career high after only 57 games. I believe he is also third in points. The way he has played lately the kid could own both the Ross and Richard come June.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
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Guest4726
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Posted - 02/02/2010 : 08:50:05
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He is on pace right now, but let's remember that Ovechkin has played 8 less games and is right there in the mix... I don't neccessarily see Sid hanging on, although to be fair I would have been one of the many who thought he'd never get 50.
Regardless whether he wins overall goal scoring he has significantly added goalscoring to his skillset, which is to be admired. How good will Sid get? Difficult to say. Let's hope he peaks in a certain tournament in February.... |
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umteman
PickupHockey Pro
USA
662 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 09:31:20
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He turned 22 just before the start of the season; I think his true peak is still 4 or even 5 years away. Now give that a minute or two to sink in.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
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Guest4766
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Posted - 02/02/2010 : 11:24:09
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| Except Ovechkin, who is only two years older, is a much more talented goal scorer. Their primes will match up pretty evenly in the grand scheme of things. Let that sink in. At least we are spoiled as fans seeing two future hall of famers mature together, |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 12:04:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4766
Except Ovechkin, who is only two years older, is a much more talented goal scorer. Their primes will match up pretty evenly in the grand scheme of things. Let that sink in. At least we are spoiled as fans seeing two future hall of famers mature together,
What is the definition of 'much more talented' goal scorer?
Consider this, Ovechkin has played in fewer games than Crosby and that makes it appear that Ovechkin at 35 goals in 47 games is more impressive than Crosby's 37 goals in 56 games.
However, consider that gap in games and that Ovechkin has taken 248 shots vs 211 of Crosby. Ovechkin averages 1.5 more shots per game.
Put this into perspective and think about it:
If Crosby shot the puck at the same rate as Ovechkin but kept his own shooting percentage, he would have 52 goals in the 56 games he played and be on pace for 75 goals this season.
Who is 'The Much More Talented" goal scorer?? |
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Guest4766
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Posted - 02/02/2010 : 13:17:43
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Alright Beans, I take 'more talented goal scorer' as the player that scores more goals on a given night than the other.
We aren't talking about accuracy, or shooting %. Otherwise Henrik Sedin and Thomas Fleischmann are 'more talented goal scorers' than either Crosby or Ovechkin.
One of the main reasons Crosby is scoring more is the insane jump he has made in shots on goal. Also I'm pretty sure Washington is o.k. with #8 taking as many shots as he wants, since, you know, alot of them go in. If you want to call him a puck hog or selfish player, then that's a different argument. I would counter that by saying he's a +35 on the season, and is currently 4th in assists (7 ahead of Crosby in 8 less games played, if you are keeping track at home).
To close my argument:
Career NHL totals (goals)
Ovechkin: 254
Crosby: 169
Fin |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 13:57:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4766
Except Ovechkin, who is only two years older, is a much more talented goal scorer. Their primes will match up pretty evenly in the grand scheme of things. Let that sink in. At least we are spoiled as fans seeing two future hall of famers mature together,
What is the definition of 'much more talented' goal scorer?
Consider this, Ovechkin has played in fewer games than Crosby and that makes it appear that Ovechkin at 35 goals in 47 games is more impressive than Crosby's 37 goals in 56 games.
However, consider that gap in games and that Ovechkin has taken 248 shots vs 211 of Crosby. Ovechkin averages 1.5 more shots per game.
Put this into perspective and think about it:
If Crosby shot the puck at the same rate as Ovechkin but kept his own shooting percentage, he would have 52 goals in the 56 games he played and be on pace for 75 goals this season.
Who is 'The Much More Talented" goal scorer??
Beautiful Beans, just beautiful 
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 15:09:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4766
Alright Beans, I take 'more talented goal scorer' as the player that scores more goals on a given night than the other.
We aren't talking about accuracy, or shooting %. Otherwise Henrik Sedin and Thomas Fleischmann are 'more talented goal scorers' than either Crosby or Ovechkin.
One of the main reasons Crosby is scoring more is the insane jump he has made in shots on goal. Also I'm pretty sure Washington is o.k. with #8 taking as many shots as he wants, since, you know, alot of them go in. If you want to call him a puck hog or selfish player, then that's a different argument. I would counter that by saying he's a +35 on the season, and is currently 4th in assists (7 ahead of Crosby in 8 less games played, if you are keeping track at home).
To close my argument:
Career NHL totals (goals)
Ovechkin: 254
Crosby: 169
Fin
Career Total Shots
Ovechkin 2039 in 371 games ( 5.5 shots/game)
Crosby 1150 in 346 games (3.3 shots/game)
Crosby would have 279 goals, even playing in 25 fewer games, if he had the same shots per game.
And yes, I do think a guy who take a reasonable amount of shots and has a high shooting percentage is a more talented goal scorer than a guy who shoots a ton but has a lower shooting percentage.
Consider this, out of the top 30 all time career goal scorers, 6 of those were players prior to the stat of shots on goal so getting a % is impossible. However, of the other 24, only 6 have a shooting % lower than 14%(Shanahan, Modano, Sakic, Dionne, and Garter).
Thinking about the greatest all time talented goal scorers(in my mind) you think of Gretzky (18%), Lemieux(19%), Kurri (19%), Bossy(21+%).
It takes more than just taking a ton of shots. These guys were clipping along at a goal every 5ish shots. Oh, and they did this for a decade or more. The person I consider to be the greatest goal scorer in history is Mike Bossy. Did you know that he only had one season less than 20% with one as high at 25%! And he did not take a ton of shots like Ovechkin does. He averaged a 3.6 shots per game!
I know that the arguement is not who is the greatest of all time. However, my point is that when you are talking about 'goal scoring talent', in my opinion one has to consider the shots the player is taking and the rate they are going in. Again, your definition of 'goal scoring talent' may be different. It may be on quantity alone. Mine, however, is a little more than that.
Fin |
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Guest4766
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Posted - 02/02/2010 : 15:45:17
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Except that there is no reason to believe if Crosby shot as much as Ovechkin he'd score as much. For him to do that he would have to sacrifice the average quality of his shot, which would significantly lower his %. If you watch Ovechkin, you know that he can score from absolutely everywhere. Think Crosby can cleanly beat an NHL goalie from inside the blue line and no screen with a snap shot? Neither did I. I've personally Ovechkin do it multiple times though.
But at the end of a game, quantity of goals and not accuracy of shots decides hockey games. You seem to say that Ovechkin's shot totals are somehow a negative, yet now that Crosby's total shots (and goals) have gone up he's the man? Cool analysis Bro.
Also, Arguing shooting % means more than total goals is lol. Why do we have the Maurice Richard Trophy and not the Craig Simpson Trophy? (Craig Simpson is the all-time leader in the category). Other 'snipers' on the all-time list include Charlie Simmer, Paul Mclean and Alex Tanguay. Proving that the list is comprised of both goal-scorers and guys who probably didn't shoot enough. Hardly the best metric for judging a snipers ability. I'd stick with the list that has Gretzky, Howe Hull and the like at the top, thanks. |
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Guest4803
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Posted - 02/02/2010 : 15:48:25
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| beans if thats the case isnt it crosbys fault for not shooting as much? cant blame ovechkin for taking more shots can you? every game is 60 minutes long not like crosby has had less oppurtunites to shot the puck then alex. |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 15:51:26
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| I understand where both of you are coming from, but bottom line it really doesn't matter, both are great, great players who the game is lucky to have. Enjoy watching them both! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 15:58:54
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Well, it's clear that I am dealing with a far superior intellect and I should just quit.
I mean c'mon, Mike Bossy?? Who in their right mind would bring that up in the case of goal scoring!!
The logic behind the ability of Ovechkin being able to score from inside the blue line and no screen with a snap shot! Wow. For every 20 shots Ovechkin does like this he might score one. I guess it's hard to fathom that it's a low percentage shot so the truely talented goal scorers don't take the shot because there are far better scoring chances???
Gretzky never score a goal off his back, so that must mean that Ovechkin is even better than the Great One!!
And to paraphrase that Shooting % means more than goals. Where is exactly did I post this?? I guess using the all time leading NHL goal scorers says something other than quantity is as much of a qualifier as quality??
You take Ovechkin and his 500+ shots at 60 goals a year. I will take my Crosby and his 300 shots, 40ish goals, 110 points, and those pesky Stanley Cups.
I'll just give up now. It's painfully obvious that I am no match for this arguement. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 16:26:38
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Crosby may have taken his game to the next level goal scoring wise, but the guest has a point. You sacrifice your shooting percentage when you pepper a goalie. If your point is Crosby has a more accurate shot fine. Better all around goal scorer? I dont think so. But if he keeps improving he goals per game total, it may make a good arguement. Goals per game is how you guage how good a goalscorer is, and so far career wise and year wise Ovechkin has that stat.
Why knock a player because he shoots more. In my opinion he is creating more scoring chances than the guys who hang on to the puck more or dish instead of shoot. Seeing how Crosby's shots have gone up tremendously in the last 2 years along with his goal totals, I think he is starting to learn this lesson. Unless your giving up a better scoring position, shooting first is never a bad thing. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 17:44:41
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Crosby's shots have gone up tremedously?? For a fact??
Wrong answer!
Crosby's shot total last season less than his rookie year, his 2nd year, and the pace he was on the 3rd year until he was injury meaning it was basically his lowest total of his 5 season.
This season he is on pace to have more shots than any other season, by a whopping 27shots or one more shot every 3 games.
I do fault a guy for taking significantly more shots than anyone else. Not just a bit. Significant.
Let's put this into perspective for a second.
Bernie Federko. Who's he right?? He played 1000 NHL games, scored 369 goals and had over 1100 points. He had 2,076 shots on goal in his entire career!
Ovechkin, through 371 games has 2,039 shots! (And has 115 fewer goals than Federko I might add!!)
Here's a little more perspective. Mike Bossy, who was arguable the best goal scorer who ever played the game, did not get to 2000 shots until somewhere in his 8th NHL season.
Ray Bourque, who leads the NHL in career shots with over 6000 did not get to 2000 until his 8th season as well.
We are not talking a few more shots, were are talking in most cases double the next guy.
Sorry, to me that says a ton. I am certain that if other players in the game today (Heatley, Kovalchuk, Crosby, Nash, Iginla, et al) were to take the shots Ovechkin does, they would score as much or more than Ovechkin.
I agree that shooting % is not as important as total goals. However, if a guy takes 500 shots to score 60, is that better than a guy taking 350 shots to score 50???
Not in my crazy brain. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 02/02/2010 17:46:15 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 17:55:42
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Wow, logic has left the building. A few corrections:
1) Transposing current goals per shots taken and imagining that the percentage would stay the same if more shots were taken is a totally false argument. It doesn't work that way.
2) Ovechkin is clearly the more talented goal scorer at the present, and while he is in his prime, will always be the front runner for the Rocket Richard trophy. Crosby has yet to win it, and yet to score 40. Looks like he'll easily get there this year, and kudos to him . . . but one great year with elevated goal scoring stats doesn't vault you past the greatest goal scorer of our day.
3) Taking the "greatest goal scorers" who have shooting stats is not a fair sample, as every one of those who you mentioned played in the run and gun 80's for a significant portion of their careers, and EVERYONE scored more then. I would argue that playing in Gretzky's era, Crosby and Ovechkin and Kovalchuk would have even higher goal scoring rates.
It is a different game these days, goalies are much better (and so are their pads), and it is a false comparison.
4) Just like Gretzky when he came into his own, Ovechkin has changed everyone's outlook on shots. Old guys will remember like I do that when Gretz started in the league, everyone oohed and aahed at his huge shot totals, and he did get a fair amount of criticism for it, just like Ovechkin does now.
The game evolves and never remains static, my friends . . . Ovechkin taking more shots can be argued to be a direct result of better defences and goaltending, requiring a greater amount of second chance scoring (rebounds, deflections, etc) to ge one past the goalie.
And Crosby seems to have caught on to Ovie's game, and is emulating it quite nicely . . . good on him, and it's great for the game that there is a goal scoring race between Crosby and Ovechkin. How cool is that?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie
165 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 17:58:36
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Shooting % is irrelevant. If there is a 1% chance you can score on the play, you take it. Crosby is now looking shoot-first and pass-second, and we can all see the results. I'm not really sure what argument you are trying to contruct with your Bernie Federko argument, but no one cares.
Ovechkin will be on the list of all-time scorers at the end of his career, and if you are trying to say that the shots he's taking aren't helping his team, then you haven't watched many Capitals games over the past couple years. As was mentioned above said, Ovechkin is top 4 in both goals and assists, and is a whopping +35.
Your argument is that if every other goal scorer took as many shots as Ovechkin, they would score the same number of goals. That suggests that people would maintain their current percentage regardless of volume, which is a pretty ludicrous assumption. If that were the case, why is no one else shooting as much? They care too much about their shooting %? I'm guessing its because they aren't as good as scoring goal. Oh, and in terms of career percentage Ovechkin is only 2% less than Crosby, so I'll take the 80 or so more goals career.
Plus the Stanley cup (notice singular) argument is fairly invalid since hockey is a team game.
If there is anything else you'd like to be proven wrong on feel free to post again.
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie
165 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 18:43:29
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| Slozo's post nailed it. |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 19:14:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Ray Bourque, who leads the NHL in career shots with over 6000
That's one record i never would of guessed. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 08:25:26
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I call garbage. There is a distict difference between a player such as Mike Bossy, who scored on 1 in 5 shots and a player like Ovechkin who scored on closer to 1 in 10 shots. I agree that a couple of percentage points here and there is not a huge indicator, but c'mon. People can't seem to see the forrest for the trees.
Completely disregard the numbers if you wish, but the bottom line is that Ovechkin and his 500ish shots a season inflate his ability to score. There is no doubt in the logic that more shots=more goals. However, as I said before which everyone failed to even comment on:
What would you rather have as a coach or a GM, a player who takes 500 shots a year and gets 60 goals or a player who takes 350 shots a year and gets 50 goals???
To me, the talent lies in capitalizing on the opportunity. Any meatball can pepper the goalie from every angle, but not every player can score once for every 5 or 6 shots they take.
I am in no way saying that Ovechkin is not a good or even great goal scorer and he absolutely has talent that comes along very rarely. In the same regard, I think I would appreciate his skill a lot more if he dropped the bad shots he takes for the sake of taking them. As I said previously, just because he can score 1 out of 20 with a snap shot from the blue line does not mean that it's a good shot to take. But he takes it anyway. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 08:34:56
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
4) Just like Gretzky when he came into his own, Ovechkin has changed everyone's outlook on shots. Old guys will remember like I do that when Gretz started in the league, everyone oohed and aahed at his huge shot totals, and he did get a fair amount of criticism for it, just like Ovechkin does now.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Slozo, can you please help me understand how Gretzky was criticized for his shot total when his highest shot total in a single season was 369?? That's only good for 37th all time. Furthermore, he only cracked 300 shots in a season 5 times in his entire career.
Ovechkin gets that by the All Star Break!! Ovechkin has more shots in 4 seasons that 'shoot too much' Gretzky had in 6 seasons!!
Furthermore, why would people complain about a guy who had 369 shots and scored 92 times!! I mean, if Ovechkin scored a goal every 4 shots, people would make him a god!!!!
Again, take nothing away from Ovechkin as this generations more prolific goal scorer, but I still think that a player with a high production is more impressive with a higher shooting percentage. |
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Guest2789
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Posted - 02/03/2010 : 09:04:36
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| I think we are fortunate to have these 2 skilled players to watch in the league. They both have their own style and their strong points. I think Crosby will eventually lead the league in goals, but he will not dominate it. There is too much talent out there right now. Ovi is an awesome player, but he is also a reckless player who lays it all on the line almost every shift, this can lead to injury or burn out, opening the door for someone else. I love watching him play and wish more players had his passion and flair. Remember great goal scorers are always a little bit into themselves and a bit selfish, they think shoot first, pass second. Makes for great hockey...how many times have you said"Why didn't he shoot the puck?" to the tv screen...MANY. Very different game now than compared to the 80s, speed, butterfly goaltending, bigger equipment, younger players, better conditioning, better sticks, different rules...we cannot compare. Both players are super talented and Crosby will get that goal scoring lead eventually..as to when..well, if you know that let me know so I can make a call to Vegas. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 11:10:17
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Beans, I went back to the shot totals for Crosby. Last years shots per game at 3.09 this years at 3.77. I dont know about you, but that translates to an extra 56 shots in a full season and his percentage an extra 10 goals. By the way his shooting percentage is a huge improvment this year to 17.54% over 14.7% career, which is why his goal totals have had a dramatic increase. So yeah I'd say crosby is following the lead of Ovechkin and shooting more.
Btw looking at Ovechkins stats this and last year he is shooting 5.2 shots per game compared to 6.68 shot per game last year and his percentage this year at 14.4% compared to 12.49% career. I'd say Ovechkin is passing more, taking fewer shots and IMO, still the better pure goal scorer than Crosby, while refining his leadership and puck passing credentials. Maybe Ovechkin is following Crosby's lead in that regard. |
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Guest1758
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Posted - 02/03/2010 : 12:09:39
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Beans, you are quickly losing any credibility you had on this site. As a GM I would take the player who takes a hell of a lot more shots and gets the 10 extra goals. Do you not realize that by taking more shots, you are allowing the chance for more rebounds for other teammates to tap in? Getting more shots to the net is what creates chances which lead to goal, Crosby has certaintaly taken a page out of that book to improve his goal scoring.
I know you like to try and back your arguements and stuff but face it here...you're wrong |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 13:12:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest1758
Beans, you are quickly losing any credibility you had on this site. As a GM I would take the player who takes a hell of a lot more shots and gets the 10 extra goals. Do you not realize that by taking more shots, you are allowing the chance for more rebounds for other teammates to tap in? Getting more shots to the net is what creates chances which lead to goal, Crosby has certaintaly taken a page out of that book to improve his goal scoring.
I know you like to try and back your arguements and stuff but face it here...you're wrong
Firstly, me measure of creditbility does not come from any guest or person on this site. You can agree with my opinion or not. I gain and gauge credibility based on the accuracy of facts not of opinions. Tell me where my numbers are inaccurate and I will take your advice. Disagree with my opinions and I could care less.
Shooting the puck does produce tap in opportunities, but that is not the only way to produce scoring chances is it?? A low percentage shot is only a good play if and when you have team mates streaking or in position for those rebounds.
That being said, I still take the player who takes few shots and scores at a higher rate as(IMO) he is taking better shots which gives me a better chance to win.
You see it more and more, specifically in hockey today where the team with the most shots does not always win. The team with the higher quality chances and the one that capitalized on those shots has the best chance to win.
For example, Vancouver is currently ranked 14th in the league in shots on goal per game yet is ranked 3rd in goals per game.
Toronto is ranked 2nd in the NHL in shots per game and is ranked 16th in goals per game.
Lots of shots=Goals
Good Scoring Chances = More Goals.
Call me what ever you wish, but I can't see how that logic is incorrect. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 02/03/2010 13:14:38 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2010 : 15:27:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest1758
Beans, you are quickly losing any credibility you had on this site.
LOL!!! 
What, you don't agree with his opinion, therefore he loses "any" cred he had on this site? Seems a little harsh i'd say.
I'm not even about to get into an argument like this. The thread began with a simple question and now it's back into one of these "who's better, Crosby or Ovechkin" discussions! Personally, if both were available to me but i had second pick, i'd still consider myself fortunate. They're both phenomenal players in their own right..... |
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Gusteroni
Rookie
Canada
225 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 10:45:19
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To be the leader could be a stretch but possible. He has really improved his goal scoring this year and if keeps at it he may be the leader even this year. His new stick has really helped but they said the other night he was focusing at improving his scoring to become a more rounded player. This guy gets stronger and more talented every year. He could be in the top five for a long time at the very least.
"There are only two seasons in Canada...hockey season and not hockey season." |
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Deaner
Rookie
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2010 : 16:34:40
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| well boys he did lead it with a tie with stammer but still, atta boy croz wait til next year |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 09:40:34
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I'll give Crosby the credit he deserves straight up, Deaner - he led the league, it just so happened that Stamkos did too (just as big a surprise, I reckon).
It was a crazy year indeed, and next season, we will see if it was a one-off fluke or not. After an early exit for the Pens, you know Crosby will have new motivation.
I still say Ovechkin is a better goal scorer, but this year, Crosby was king.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Deaner
Rookie
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2010 : 13:50:57
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| absolutly agree slozo, I think crosy will be on fire next season just to prove the pens ain't fading away. He will definatly be motivated and when he is it's scary for every team they play. I agree ovechkin is the better goal scorer, he played something like 12 games less than croz this season but was only 1 goal behind correct? |
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Guest3263
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Posted - 10/30/2011 : 11:19:25
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| My money is on James Neal this year ;) |
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Guest8341
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Posted - 10/30/2011 : 11:39:55
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| well he has in case you forgot |
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Guest4603
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Posted - 10/30/2011 : 11:52:45
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Crosby is Done as a well done steak... One more Big Hit and the Boy well call it Quits
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Guest2939
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Posted - 11/01/2011 : 09:42:25
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| NO! HE WILL NOT LEAD IN POINTS EVER AGAIN!!!! HE IS GOING TO BE SOOOO GUN SHY AND WILL NEVER BE THE FIRST ONE IN THE CORNERS AGAIN! STILL IS ONE OF THE BEST PLAYMAKERS IN THE LEAGUE AND EVEN THE WORLD. |
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BucketHead
Top Prospect
Canada
78 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2011 : 12:24:32
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| Turn your caps lock off, guest2939, Also no one know how he will be once he is back, but he will still be one of the best, one concussion does not mean your a crappier player, i will laugh my ass off when he leads the league next year and makes everyone that thought he was done look like a dumbass. |
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Will Crosby ever lead the league in goal scoring? 
