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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2007 : 09:36:12
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Poll Question:
Who will win the Hart trophy this year? Explain.
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Edited by - willus3 on 04/09/2007 09:57:13
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 09:45:16
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Crosby. Like Darren Dreger said, anyone who says otherwise is over-thinking. He's too easy of a pick.
Lecavalier  |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 04/09/2007 09:46:05 |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 09:45:17
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| Well the Canucks would be nowhere without Luongo, the Pens would be nowhere without Crosby, and TB would be nowhere without Lecavalier. HOWEVER, Crosby has Malkin, Staal, and Recchi to help him (proof? last year without them the Pens sucked, this year with them they're in the playoffs), and Lecavalier has St. Louis. So the effort is not theirs alone. Luongo on the other hand is the only reason the Canucks have been doing so well, he's done it all himself. So I think Roberto wins this one. |
Edited by - Mikhailova on 04/09/2007 09:50:11 |
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-oil-country-
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
988 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 09:54:22
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| I think Crosby is gonna win it but i think Luongo deserves it more for the same reasons as Mik said. |
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Kashmire
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
506 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 09:55:08
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| I said Brodeur. I did over-think this question. He rarely allows high scoring games to take place and his team isn't even a high scoring team. Without such a goaltender NJD would lose MANY more games. |
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BigShow
Rookie
177 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 10:15:00
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I've completely flipflopped on this. Crosby will win, Brodeur will be a close second and Luongo right behind.
Crosby's production since this was last brought up has been tremendous, and he almost doubled his goals since. Crosby is surrounded by decent players, and Malkin will be very good eventually. But the Kid has essentially picked the Pens up and carried them.
Marty breaking the all time wins record is impressive, but not as much as some media make it sound. With overtime and shootouts now it is mush easier than it was. His twelve shutouts are a pretty big testament to his elite status, but he seemed mortal down the stretch.
Luongo should get more recognition that he does. Vancouver would be struggling without him (or an equivelant elite tender). He has less support around him than either Brodeur or Crosby, but he will be overshadowed this year by Martyand the Kid, who are everywhere in the media. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 10:15:26
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Sorry Babs - gotta disagree with you. I don't know yet and have to THINK about it, cause the Hart is, and always has been, the trickiest of all the awards. Most valuable player! Not best player. Most valuable player! That depends on a lot of factors. Gotta look at the teams they're on, etc. As of right now, I'm undecided.
p.s. I assume the question is getting at who "should" win |
Edited by - andyhack on 04/09/2007 10:18:41 |
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jbraiter
PickupHockey Pro
577 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 10:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
Well the Canucks would be nowhere without Luongo, the Pens would be nowhere without Crosby, and TB would be nowhere without Lecavalier. HOWEVER, Crosby has Malkin, Staal, and Recchi to help him (proof? last year without them the Pens sucked, this year with them they're in the playoffs), and Lecavalier has St. Louis. So the effort is not theirs alone. Luongo on the other hand is the only reason the Canucks have been doing so well, he's done it all himself. So I think Roberto wins this one.
i have to agree with Mik Canucks= Luongo
Go Canucks |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 10:43:22
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I didn't say it was best player. And you're wrong, the award is not just for the MVP either. It's for the MVP to his team, there's a big difference. This difference is to me the only reason Lecavalier should not be considered. Anyways...
I'm also a firm believer that Luongo is 90% of why the Canucks finished in 3rd in the West. The element of this that makes me choose Crosby over Luongo is that while Luongo DID win games for his team, single-handedly at times, he did not make his team (as in the individual players) better. Yes, that's a little unfair to goalies because that's hard for them to do, if even possible. That's not in the criteria of the award, I know, but this is how I look at it. Crosby made every single player he played with a better player, even Malkin and Staal. Whitney's point production and the fact that Pittsburgh was 1st in the NHL in PPG is perfect proof of that. He's 19, led the league with 120 points, resurrected a couple players' careers (Recchi, Gonchar) and helped make Malkin and Staal two frontrunners for the Calder trophy.
I'm no Crosby-lover or Luongo-hater, so this is as objective as it gets. I just think too many here (not all) have been IHC-ized and are starting to trivialize Crosby's accomplishments way too easily. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 10:49:40
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| Yes, I know, for the team. I wasn't saying that you said it was for best player. I was just trying to remind everyone of the meaning of the trophy because I think it has sometimes been misunderstood even by the guys who actually vote on it. |
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Guest9253
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Posted - 04/09/2007 : 10:58:55
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| Im agreeing with Babs on this one, Crosby has accomplished more than any 19 year old out there. He has lived to the hype and is the real deal. For such a young team, I believe the penguins are definitely destined to be a dynasty. Crosby has already broken one record even the Great One couldn't accomplish - Winning the scoring title as a teenager. Another thing we could bring up here is the fact that they went from 58 points to 105 in one season, the 4th best comearound season ever in the NHL. And even though he has malkin, staal, recchi, etc... he can really make everybody around him that much better, hes one of those players who come every so often. Colby Amrstrong was on his line last year, and colby managed to get 60 points, if that aint saying anything than i dont know what is. As for Brodeur, possibly the best goalie ever, but he has always had a good defensive team in front of him, any decent goalie would be a good fit in jersey. Luongo is a good goalie as well, but you cannot give him complete credit, he was on florida last year and they didnt make the playoffs cuz he never had the players, now he does which makes it easier for him. So im sure u know where my vote stands, its a no-brainer. |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 11:05:08
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Luongo deserves to win, but Crosby will win.
Can't count out the hockey politics. |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 12:50:11
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| I'm not trying to minimize Sid's achievements (I was originally considering him among the potential winners anyway), and although he has made his teammates better, they have made him better too. Last year he had 102 points, this year he has 120 playing with these other guys. He sets up the plays, they score and give him his assist point, and he in turn gives them their 2 goal points for setting up the play. They work together to make each other better. Luongo does it all himself. He can't really make the other players better individually because he's a goalie, but he is most valuable to his team as a whole because he has bascially saved their skins countless times and set them at 3rd in the West. Crosby is of course amazingly talented and certainly the best individual player, and you all can go on and on about his accomplishments, but the Hart isn't for the most accomplished player. I think it would be interesting to see the Pens play the Canucks; Crosby can set up all the scoring chances and the others can shoot, but can they consistently score on Luongo? If they can't, no one--neither Crosby nor Malkin nor anyone--gets their point. It's been said here before in other topics--build your team off good goaltending. Because that's arguably the most important part of it. |
Edited by - Mikhailova on 04/09/2007 12:56:22 |
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1 Crosby fan
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1454 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 13:13:16
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I picked Joe Thornton because he overcame a slow start and whatnot and i have no reason y i picked him i just think he will
Viktor Kozlov is my hero |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 13:15:12
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Its going to be Sid, no questions asked. With all of the hype surrounding him + he lead the league in scoring, his choice is almost as good as done.
When life gives you lemons throw them at the Ottawa Senators and their fans and hope it gets them in the eyes ;) |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 13:28:12
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Brodeur will win, best stats he has ever had...
There are: People that make things happen, people that watch things happen, and people that wonder what happened, who are you... |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 15:34:28
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I don't know how some of you guys think of this as easy or a "no-brainer" (by the way, was that Guest 9253 you Willus?). You guys must be smarter than me, cause I find this year really tough, and as I mentioned earlier, every year this trophy may be the trickiest of them all as this "most valuable player to your team" question may be the hardest thing to measure.
I can't really quarrel all that much with those who say Crosby and am very tempted to take him myself for the reasons given on the thread already. But I think of it this way - take that player off the team and replace him with just an average player at that position and where would the team be?
I personally think Pittsburgh's supporting cast is a lot better than a lot of people seem to think. Tampa Bay's supporting cast for Vinnie L. on the other hand seems a lot weaker to me this year. But most of all I look at Luongo and ask myself if Vancouver would be anywhere even remotely near where they are now with just an average goalie. Thinking of it this way, I think Vancouver would drop the furthest of the three teams if these stars were replaced by average players.
As for the others, I think New Jersey, given the way they play, would still probably be like the 7th or 8th seed in the playoffs if they had an average goalie instead of Brodeur. Joe Thornton, very valuable, but San Jose too would seem to have a slightly better supporting cast than Tampa Bay, so if I am gonna go the non-Luongo route, I'd take Vinnie over Joe.
So this OVERTHINKER is going with Luongo on this YES-BRAINER question (couldn't think of a good opposite to "no-brainer") |
Edited by - andyhack on 04/09/2007 15:37:08 |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 15:52:24
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
I didn't say it was best player. And you're wrong, the award is not just for the MVP either. It's for the MVP to his team, there's a big difference. This difference is to me the only reason Lecavalier should not be considered. Anyways...
I'm also a firm believer that Luongo is 90% of why the Canucks finished in 3rd in the West. The element of this that makes me choose Crosby over Luongo is that while Luongo DID win games for his team, single-handedly at times, he did not make his team (as in the individual players) better. Yes, that's a little unfair to goalies because that's hard for them to do, if even possible. That's not in the criteria of the award, I know, but this is how I look at it. Crosby made every single player he played with a better player, even Malkin and Staal. Whitney's point production and the fact that Pittsburgh was 1st in the NHL in PPG is perfect proof of that. He's 19, led the league with 120 points, resurrected a couple players' careers (Recchi, Gonchar) and helped make Malkin and Staal two frontrunners for the Calder trophy.
I'm no Crosby-lover or Luongo-hater, so this is as objective as it gets. I just think too many here (not all) have been IHC-ized and are starting to trivialize Crosby's accomplishments way too easily.
Man you really don't get goaltending do you?
If any position can make a team (and yes, individuals better) it's the goaltender.........He gives the team (more than any other position) confidence. How can you not get this..Personally, I think goalies always deserve the MVP.......Look how a mediocre goalie can ruin a decent team(eg Razor and the leafs)...and just read Miks statement about Luongo, she is spot on..........One forward/dman can never make or break a team , only a goalie can do that...and As soon as Luongo stepped up his game in December, coincidentally, the Nucks started scoring more. they had that confidence that Bobby-loo could bail them out ..As a result, yes, Luongo made the rest of the players better, the D-men could step up on a rush, the forwards could forecheck harder.......So wake up buddy, since when does Darren Dregger know s*** about hockey....I don't know if you noticed this, but the majority of journalists didn't spend every waking hour of their youth playing and reading and watching hockey.....WAKE UP!!!!!
I HATE CROSBY |
Edited by - I HATE CROSBY on 04/09/2007 15:53:26 |
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bonfire420
Rookie
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 16:07:42
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It should be Luongo but this is the way it will happen:
1) Crosby
2) Brodeur
3) Luongo |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 17:30:12
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| Guest 9253 wasn't me Andy but I agree with him actually. |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 18:00:48
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IHC, did I strike a nerve?
I'm having a hard time taking your opinion seriously considering the fact that Mr. Crosby is a candidate. Of course you'll vote against him, it's in your nature. Now you don't have any real reason to do so except for your _______. I never make personal attacks so feel free to fill in the blank with whatever you deem appropriate.
Your claim that a goaltender can make individuals better more than anyone else on the ice is a little farfetched to me. See we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about physically developing skills and literally forcing players to bring their game up but you're talking about giving players a "mental edge", confidence. That's just psychological BS to me. I equate that to you scraping out reasons for why Crosby is so "bad". It's using abstract "observations" to try to prove a point and that doesn't work on me.
I hope we never end up having to coach a hockey team together because our styles must be polar opposites. Do you justify defensemen jumping into the rush and forwards forechecking more aggressively by a team "having confidence in their goaltender"? That doesn't seem like a reason to impose those tactics to me. A team shouldn't JUST start doing that because it takes them half a year to realize that they have one of the best goalies in the world in net. A team should get those instructions FROM THEIR COACH as they are tactics that are strategized, taught, practiced, failed, practiced more and then perfected. They aren't feelings that just suddenly appear in a player's psyche. And whether or not Dreger says it, I do.
Stop questioning/insulting my knowledge about the goaltending position. Your opinion about it may differ, but it CERTAINLY does not make yours superior to mine. |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 18:08:09
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Oh babs........I like the call about coaching hahahahaha....All is forgotten.
I'm just really mad cause pitts is doing very well, and I know sid will win the hart..........I hate the Gretz comparissons.......Gretz could score at will, sid can't.....he may be as good at gretz from a passing standpoint, but gretz was a great goal scorer, and I have yet to see any evidence of sid having that attribute..If the voters feel an urge to vote for a non-goalie, I strongly feel that player should score at least 50 gaols, and therefore vinny should get it...I mean, other than Richards and St. Louis, who does tampa have..a crummy goalie, that's what.
I HATE CROSBY |
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Topic |
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Hart Trophy 
