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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
 Posted - 04/21/2007 : 20:04:56
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If this Stars vs Nucks series has shown us anything, it's shown us how poor the rest of the Nucks are. It was relatively the same deal all season, the Nucks get a few scoring chances all game (which typically went in against goalies other than Turco), and then piggy back off Luongo for the rest of the game. He is without a doubt the most valuable player to his team. The other MVP candidates have pretty good teammates. Meanwhile, Luongo relies on a washed up Naslund and Geoff Cowan (WHO?) to score.
And if not for him this post season (which I'm aware, has no merrit on the Hart...But I'm just saying..) the Nucks would have been the first team out...Wait a minute they wouldn't have been in the playoffs!
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
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Kashmire
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
506 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 20:32:39
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Great JB, you finally admit the Canucks are washed up and dependant on their goaltender to win every game. |
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1 Crosby fan
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1454 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 20:40:52
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Well Naslund ain't washed up and well i agree
Viktor Kozlov is my hero |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 22:31:11
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| Luongo has been keeping them in every game this series and season. I'm going for Luongo as MVP just look at what he's done. |
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PetrKlima
Top Prospect
1 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 02:10:30
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From my perspective, it's pretty straightforward...Which team is worse off?
Pitt. minus Sid?
SJ minus JT?
Jersey minus Brodeur?
Vancity minus Luongo?
Vancouver has almost no secondary scoring and if they lose even a third of the one goal games that Luongo stole for them this year, than they finish tenth this year.
I hate the Canucks, BUT...
like I said, straightforward.
Dream Line: Smytty, Mess, Petr! |
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Guest4462
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Posted - 04/22/2007 : 03:40:42
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You guys arent given the Canucks enough credit. Yes, Luongo is a fantastic, amazing, positional goaltender. And Yes, he should be MVP. And Yes, the Canucks would not have finiahed 1st in the division without him. And Yes, the Canucks are not saturated with talent right now. These all I accept. But I do eg to differ with anyone who says that he team isnt good at all without Luongo. Alain has his troops playing great t-e-a-m hockey and this has contributed to their wins as much as anything. The Nucks dont have an abundance of highly skilled players right now, but they work extremely well as a unit and have progressively done so as the year moved on. Luongo started out the first 3 months, sub par, and wasnt very good - the Nucks were outshooting their oppoents 35/40 to 20/25 on a nightly basis and losing. Goals were going in off Cooke's skate, Mitchell's butt, and a heckuva lotta other ways. As the year went on, the team turned it around, so did Luongo, and you have the Canuck story from Xmas onwards. They went from last in the NHL in scoring at Christmas, and climbing 8 spots in the next 3 months - a pretty impressive feat for a team that wasnt supposed to have any scoring.
Do they have a bunch of great players? ... No
but they are a great team (and btw, a 'team' includes the goalie no matter how you look at it). I think this years' history has already proven that, so there is no debate here.
Can they maintain this next year? I will probably be tough, but only time will tell...
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 12:01:18
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Without Crosby, the Pens don't make the playoffs. In fact, they may have the first overall pick again. Why?
Crosby has the rare (and I mean rare - Orr, Gretzky, Mario -like) ability to make everyone around him better. Ovechkin is a perfect example of someone who does NOT have that ability. He's a phenominal talent, but he's only as good as his most amazing play, and his team will only benefit from the occasional highlight reel goal.
Sid shows up to play every game, every shift, and every practice. The guys on the team see that, and respond to the leadership.
If you think I'm wrong, don't argue with me...argue with Messier, Kurri, Anderson, Bernie Nichols, and guys like that. The LA Kings were nowhere until Gretz arrived and took them to the finals. Messier was destined to be a third-liner until he learned from Gretz and did the same with the NYR.
There are great players (Luongo, Ovechkin, Thornton), and then there are SUPERSTAR IMMORTALS. Crosby is/will be the latter, Luongo is just a great player.
Think back to 1980. The same discussion was held that year about Gretzky and Mike Liut. How did that one turn out?
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 13:49:51
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This goes to "flyforapuckguy" and a lot of other ppl on here:
HOW does Sid make everyone on his team better? I don't get how he can make anyone other than his linemates better...So give that argument a rest, you're way off.......And I don't think too many adults are going to listen to a 19 year old baby order them around, so I don't buy that leadership call either.
Who among us will admit that Pittsburgh could have beat Ottawa if they had Luongo instead of Crosby? I will.....the only way you can beat Luongo is by odd bounces and tips,....Meanwhile the Sens showed how easy it was to take Sid out of the game (Sans game 2).
Again I'll say......Pitts w/o Sid still have a playoff bound team. Meanwhile, the Nucks w/o Bobby have a wash-up, a bunch of fouth-liners(Since when is Pyatt a legitimate first liner?), and two Swedish Twins...ie: the Nucks only wins would have been against the Blue Jackets.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 14:11:27
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Look at the Nucks playoff blunders with goalies like Cloutier and Alex Auld... The team was practically the same and they did so much worse. Without Luongo this team may nothave made the playoffs, and if they dd manage to they would have been swept in 4 (especially if it was Dallas).
This isn't about who will be better or who is better, it matters who is more valuable. The Pens wouldn't have had last pick, Malkin and Staal would still have been around. They probably would have been fighting for a playoff spot also, but the Canucks would have been like Edmonton.
So this is how I see it
Roberto Luongo
Sidney Crosby
When life gives you lemons throw them at the Ottawa Senators and their fans and hope it gets them in the eyes ;) |
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Guest4454
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Posted - 04/22/2007 : 14:20:50
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| For IHC, I have to disagree with you that the Penguins are a playoff-bound team without Crosby. There were not too many games this season that the Penguins won where Crosby didn't get a point or score the shootout winner. I think Luongo is a great goalie, and that he was the reason the Canucks won their division this year, but the Canucks are the typical Western Conference team. If you look at the first round against Dallas, Luongo has payed great, but there have not been a ton of great scoring chances. The Canucks allow shots, but also make sure Luongo sees them, and make sure the rebounds are cleared. I think the Canucks would not have been as far off their point total this year without Luongo as the Penguins would have been without Crosby. My vote is for Crosby, but Luongo is a close second |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 14:36:08
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quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
HOW does Sid make everyone on his team better? I don't get how he can make anyone other than his linemates better...
He's a playmaker. He sets up plays, passes to his linemates, they score. Thanks to Sid's set-up, they get 2 points.
About all this Luongo vs. Crosby stuff, I agree with Leafsfan. Crosby IS valuable to the Pens, but Luongo is MORE valuable to the Canucks than Sid is to the Pens. The Penguins have skill outside of Crosby, but that's not so much the case with Vancouver. Without Luongo, the Canucks would be sunk. |
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Kashmire
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
506 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 14:44:53
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| ....Take out Luongo. Put in Sabourin. Take out Crosby. put some call-up onto the roster. Who wins? Sorry. Luongo for MVP. |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 17:21:10
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There is no chance that the Canucks would be where they are now if they did not have Luongo. Luongo is the MVP. If Luongo was on Toronto and Raycroft was on the Canucks the position of each team would have changed drastically.
Forecheck+Backcheck= Paycheck!!! |
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jbraiter
PickupHockey Pro
577 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 17:58:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Kashmire
Great JB, you finally admit the Canucks are washed up and dependant on their goaltender to win every game.
I meant in the playoffs, in the playoffs it was all Luongo, and mostly in the season too, but in the canucks defense he had great D men ( Mitchell, Salo, Ohlund, and Bieksa) but up front it was only the Sedins |
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 19:20:30
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I agree whole heartedly that the Penguins would have had an excellent chance at making the playoffs without Sidney Crosby and would certainly not be drafting #1 this year. They would have been a bubble team though. Sid will have his MVP years, but this wasn't one of them.
That said, Crosby should not win MVP.
Onto Luongo:
I'm not entirely convinced that Luongo has proved so much more valuable to his team than Brodeur. Brodeur carried his team all year too and was an iron man in terms of games played. Brodeur played more games than Luongo and played on a team that scored fewer goals (though the differences are marginal in both categories). I think the Devils would be relaxing with Philly if they didn't have Brodeur. In fact, every significant statistic places Brodeur marginally above Luongo, though very slightly. All this and many of New Jersey's big guns (speaking relatively to the rest of the team) missed games this season down the stretch. Both Sedin brothers had more points than anyone on New Jersey. Among the top 45 in scoring, the Devils have no representative, Vancouver has 2 in the top 30.
So to answer the question begged by IHC: "How can't Luongo be MVP?"
Martin Brodeur |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 20:29:21
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quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
This goes to "flyforapuckguy" and a lot of other ppl on here:
HOW does Sid make everyone on his team better? I don't get how he can make anyone other than his linemates better...So give that argument a rest, you're way off.......And I don't think too many adults are going to listen to a 19 year old baby order them around, so I don't buy that leadership call either.
Who among us will admit that Pittsburgh could have beat Ottawa if they had Luongo instead of Crosby? I will.....the only way you can beat Luongo is by odd bounces and tips,....Meanwhile the Sens showed how easy it was to take Sid out of the game (Sans game 2).
Again I'll say......Pitts w/o Sid still have a playoff bound team. Meanwhile, the Nucks w/o Bobby have a wash-up, a bunch of fouth-liners(Since when is Pyatt a legitimate first liner?), and two Swedish Twins...ie: the Nucks only wins would have been against the Blue Jackets.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
This may sound condescending at times, but I really don't mean it that way...
If you don't have a deep hockey background, you may not understand the concept of what a "franchise player" means to a team. Anyone who has played with an elite player knows what I'm talking about (elite meaning the best at whatever level you are at).
Crosby makes the Pens better not just by passing and whatnot, but by the fact that he wants to succeed so badly. You can just see it dripping off him every time he's on the ice. His teammates take notice. Just listen to how they talk about him sometime. It's almost adoration. Does Colby Armstrong have an ounce of talent? Nope, but he's going to score twenty or so goals every year he plays with Sid, because he has no quit. Elite players bring out the desire in guys who may not otherwise have it.
This desire can cause problems. It's the reason he comes off as a "whiner" (as did guys like Gretzky). It's because when you have "it", meaning a perfect blend of talent and desire, you can't accept losing, you can't accept things not going your way, and you sure as heck can't accept others around you being slack when you're beating your brains out to be the best.
I'm not bragging at all, and I wouldn't have brought it up if I had not been asked to defend my position, but as a youth, I had a chance to play with Mike Modano. He was miles above everyone around him, but he made average guys perform better because you knew he had "it", and there was no way in hell you were going to be the guy to either make him or yourself look bad playing with him, so you worked and practiced that much harder.
You worked out harder, you skated faster, and when he stayed late for practice, you did too. When he drank a Pepsi, you drank a Pepsi, too, even if you liked Coke better.
Some guys bring that out in other people, some do not.
Sid does. I watch him on TV and I can just tell he wants to be the best so bad he can't contain himself. Sometimes that means a highlight reel goal, other times it means yelling at the ref for a questionable call out of frustration. I think only guys with his level of intensity on the ice understand that frustration. Guys like Iginla, for example (who also complains to the refs non-stop but nobody ever says boo about that).
In hockey particularly, leadership takes many forms. Some guys talk it (like Messier). Some guys lead by example (like Sakic). Some guys show their teammates what it takes to be the best (like Gretzky and Sid). They are all special in their own way, but someone like Sid comes along once every twenty years or so. You can spend your time hating him if you like... a lot of people hated Greztky when he was young. In the end, they all stood and cheered and knew that he was the Great One.
I'm sorry if you can't understand how this works.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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Kashmire
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
506 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 20:37:52
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| Wow. Nice. That's a whole new aspect that I've been exposed to for 1 and a half years so far but I haven't the mind to think through it. You have honestly enlightened me. I enjoy watching Sid play though I don't like his principles shown on ice. Ever watch him work along the boards for the puck. He may not be big but he has heart and determination. I can relate to Crosby on various accounts on this matter. I'm very athletically gifted (not so much in hockey but I'm above average slightly) and I can't stand how some guys score on my team. Especially when I'm pumped up. Crosby probably experiences this on a whole different level too. It's the NHL, he's gotta. GREAT point Fly! |
Edited by - Kashmire on 04/22/2007 20:42:47 |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 21:00:06
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flyforapuck guy, I had the luxury of playing with 4 guys in the NHL too.....I don't buy your argument cause that's not accurate......When I was in junoir, we listened to THE COACH....my teammates (even the soon to be NHLers) listen to THE COACH.......not some Rookie......
I have never been one to jump on to the leadership bandwagon...... you are team! This isn't Germany in the 1930's, you don't get "inspired" by one man, you ALL feed off each other, everyone on the TEAM......I hope I'm not talking on too a high a level hahahaha.......
So you take your hard on for madonno and have fun with that.....
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
Edited by - I HATE CROSBY on 04/22/2007 21:01:04 |
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Guest4024
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Posted - 04/22/2007 : 21:24:35
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virtually every topic in this forum ends up being talked about crosby.......
is anyone else geting sick of hearing about crosby? |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 21:26:07
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| IHC c'mon man. I don't even need to say more, just keep it clean. |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 21:55:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4024
virtually every topic in this forum ends up being talked about crosby.......
is anyone else geting sick of hearing about crosby?
GREAT CALL!!!!!!!!!
How bout that Luongo, eh?
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 03:08:22
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I Hate Crosby, I'm willing to bet you've never even skated on arena ice, let alone played with or against 4 NHLers. "Leadership bandwagon"? Is leadership a new or foreign concept? The foundation of any great NHL team is leadership, teammwork, and experience. Coaches implement systems, game plans and provide motivation - rarely if ever do they provide "leadership" as I have defined it previously.
Your lack of understanding regarding hockey and the importance of team leadership leads me to believe the closest you've ever gotten to a sheet of ice is the one you slipped and bruised your backside on in your driveway.
You may insult me if it makes you feel better. How much cred does a guy whose username is "I Hate Crosby" have anyway.? You hate him, you hate the game, as far as I'm concerned. I respect all the greats of the game, especially the heart and soul guys like Sid, Cam Neely, Mark Messier, Mario, Yzerman, Gretz, Orr, Howe, the Rocket, and active guys like Sakic, Iginla, Shanny, Smyth, and even Ovechkin. I don't care who they play for, as long as they have heart.
I've been around for almost two full days and from what I can tell your main purpose here is to start trouble. Every message board ever created has a guy like you. Not too cool in the real world, semi-bright, certainly not knowledgable, but gets a thrill from trying to create micro-wars with others, like naming himself something he knows will be controversial, and hating on certain players, teams and members. Your act is old, used-up and tired and I will not respond to you again. I came here to discuss hockey matters.
My apolgies for taking up so much space for this post, but I felt I needed to respond to the insult hurled my way regarding Mike Modano, who was, by the way, a class act all the way (and like myself, 100% hetero).
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 04/23/2007 17:41:53 |
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Saku Steen
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1102 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 03:34:37
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Well.... back on topic, (remember about Luongo) The canucks rely on far too much. Like I said in another fourm, the Canucks wouldnt be where they are without Luongo.
I've figured it out, the guys gotta play like girls! |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 16:07:50
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Now now, fly4apuckguy, if ever your in Vancouver, I'll throw on goal pads once again and show you some actual talent...You should probably avoid making unjustified theorems like that.....I played Junoir hockey for 3 years until I got TKO'd in training camp (jr.B, but that is what a standard WHL player will play before starting in the W (instead on playing MIdget), so I've been in the dressing room, and know what REALLY goes on in there...You don't sit around in the room motivating each other every minute, I think the fundamental point of hockey is the FUN part, so that's what my team did....Have fun!, maybe you and your boner buddy Madonno took yourselves more seriously than you should, but I sure didn't.....
As for the knowledgible remark.....Please tell me the uniform closure of polynomials on a compact set....I can answer that, can you?
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 17:42:57
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| Told you to keep it clean. |
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How can't Luongo be MVP? 
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