| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
 Posted - 04/24/2007 : 15:55:36
|
Ok now I know a lot of you have seen a lot of hockey and during my life of 13 years I have seen players with great skill and are well just lazy.
And out of those lazy players a lot of them are Russian.
For example Alex Kovalev: I have never seen a player who can handle the puck so well, he is also big and strong and can easily control a game all by himself but he choses not to.
Here are some Russian players who I believe are lazy
Alex Kovalev
Ilya Kovalchuck
Alexandre Frolov
Alexandre Ovechkin
Alexandre Semin
Evgeni Malkin
Slava Kozlov
Alexei Yashin
Now here are some players who I believe are not lazy
Maxim Afinogenov
Sergei Zubov
Pavel Datsyuk
Andrei Markov
Sergei Gonchar
Dmitri Kallinin
Anton Volchenkov
Now unfortunetely I never really seen Alexei Zhamnov, Pavel Bure and Valeri Bure play and for searching highlites I only get the good things they do so if someone could tell me if you though they really tried or were lazy.
I'm not saying that Russia is lazy i believe they have players with potential to do something big in the NHL but they just chose not to. And also there are a lot of players that come from Russia and do well.
And if you could tell me what you think of what I said if you agree or disagree and tell me more players who you think are lazy or not lazy.
-------Moderator Edit-------
Hi PainTrain, I took out 2 paragraphs because they were exact duplicates of the ones above :-)
--------End Moderator Edit---------
|
Edited by - leigh on 04/24/2007 16:10:07
|
|
|
Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 16:14:07
|
I would add Fedorov to the list of lazy players. He seems not to care anymore and isn't doing as well as he used to. I agree with Kovalev being on the lazy list, he could be so much more if he played well more than once every 10 games. Not sure why Ovechkin is there, he's quite explosive on the ice and scored a ton of goals. That one I don't agree with.
As for the not-lazy list, looks good. Afinogenov can't be lazy with that kind of speed! (And there's Viktor Kozlov as well, but I don't care if he's lazy or not, he's still my hockey hero after that game!) |
 |
|
|
Saku Steen
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1102 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 16:48:30
|
It does seem that way but I dont agree with Kovalchuk. He plays his heart out every game. Kovalov, I agre 100 percent. He just dosent skate. All these 'lazy' players, its a shame because they could have so much talent.
I've figured it out, the guys gotta play like girls! |
|
|
|
PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 17:02:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
[br. Not sure why Ovechkin is there, he's quite explosive on the ice and scored a ton of goals. That one I don't agree with.
Mik I really think that Ovechkin could be one of the top players in the league. For him he was border line for me, I was going through my head is he a hard worker or a selfish lazy player and it was hard but i decided he could play better. I won't lie tho he is a goal scorer and very explosive as you say I just want to see that on a more consictent basis. |
Edited by - PainTrain on 04/24/2007 17:03:35 |
|
|
|
PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 17:20:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Saku Steen
It does seem that way but I dont agree with Kovalchuk. He plays his heart out every game. Kovalov, I agre 100 percent. He just dosent skate. All these 'lazy' players, its a shame because they could have so much talent.
I've figured it out, the guys gotta play like girls!
If Kovalchuk plays his heart out then why is he a -61 in his carrer. He has the skill thats for sure he puts a little more effort and we got ourselves a player. |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 20:11:37
|
Great topic PainTrain.
I would say the majority of Russian players in the NHL end up appearing lazy at some point in their career. I'm not saying the following as fact so take it for what it is.
One possibility could be that they lose their desire to play because their original motivation to be great is no longer there. Perhaps they see playing hockey as their ticket out of Russia and the oppressive life that it can be. Once they're here for awhile they begin to coast. They have more money that they could dream of. Bye bye motivation.
Another possibility could be that the coaching in the NHL is a completely different style than what they learn in Russia. They teach a concept of winning as a team only. Individuality and stars are discouraged. You win for the Country. The Motherland. Dictatorship style.
I could just be chatting out my bum too.
"Go chase headlights!" |
|
|
|
fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 21:12:21
|
I'm a huge Penguins fan, but I have to say Gonchar is a very lazy player. He scores lots of points, but his movement on the ice could only be described as glacial. On power plays, when he brings the puck up the ice, it looks like he could be passed by an old lady with a walker.
Many (not all) Russian players, IMO, simply do not care about the NHL like North Americans and many other Europeans do. What does the Stanley Cup mean to Kovalev or Kovalchuk? Nothing.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
|
|
|
fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 21:15:40
|
Sorry, to answer your other question, Pavel Bure was not a lazy player. He went downhill towards the end of his career, but he (in my opinion again) is the standard to which other Russian players should strive. His brother Valeri...different story. Zhamnov started not lazy, had some success, then became very lazy.
I hate to say it, but it's typical of Russian players to start well, make some $$$, then put the feet up and coast. Then you have guys like Chelios who looks as good at 45 as he did at 25.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
|
|
|
PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 21:23:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
If Kovalchuk plays his heart out then why is he a -61 in his carrer. He has the skill thats for sure he puts a little more effort and we got ourselves a player.
Joe Sakic was -100 after his first five seasons, and never became a + player until his 13th season...Joe gives it his all, so I would have to think that +/- has nothing to do with effort...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do North American players have the same drive to win the Spengler Cup as they do the Stanley Cup? No, I don't think they do, but the Russian players have the drive for the Spengler...
Is it possible that the Russian players have very few family and friends that will attend a game lets say in Toronto, or Montreal, so they have no one to show off too...
Laziness, and motivation when mixed together can really slow a player down...
Lead, follow, or get out of the way... |
Edited by - PuckNuts on 04/24/2007 21:38:29 |
|
|
|
Saku Steen
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1102 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 03:34:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
quote:
Originally posted by Saku Steen
It does seem that way but I dont agree with Kovalchuk. He plays his heart out every game. Kovalov, I agree 100 percent. He just dosent skate. All these 'lazy' players, its a shame because they could have so much talent.
I've figured it out, the guys gotta play like girls!
If Kovalchuk plays his heart out then why is he a -61 in his carrer. He has the skill thats for sure he puts a little more effort and we got ourselves a player.
Plus Minus can sometimes prove how lazy a player is but in this case, it dosent prove a lot. You have to remember how bad Atlanta was when they 1st started. They were pretty bad in their first couple of years when Iiya was playing. Which means the TEAMS plus minus wasnt at all good. He also wasnt hired to play defence, he was paid to score goals.
I've figured it out, the guys gotta play like girls! |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 12:09:52
|
Are we saying that a lazy player is a player who doesn't play defense?? Kinda sounds like it as the players listed are very active offensively but not so active defensively.
And Mik, I have a ton of respect for your hockey knowledge, however labelling Fedorov lazy is far from accurate in my opinion. A former league MVP, a two time Selke winner for the best defensive forward, a Cup winner, the Pearson award, and 5 all-star games?? He was a plus player every single year until he was traded to the Ducks. He definately doesn't have the same drive he once did, but to label him lazy after having the best career of any Russian up to this point. That's a little harsh don't you think?? Plus, he's 38 years old!
Anyway, I think that not just Russian Players, but most players (not all) but most have a point in their career where they don't have the same drive to work as hard. Superstars are the exceptions and that is what makes them superstars. But this is not just Russians.
And I think it has something to do with the money and contracts. How often to you see a player at the top of his game before it's time for a new contract?? Then you see that same player a couple years later in the bottom of the bucket?? I know myself, and I think I have a good work ethic. However, if I know I am for sure going to get a large paycheck for long time regardless of my performance, I am going to do a little coasting too. |
|
|
|
Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 12:47:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
And Mik, I have a ton of respect for your hockey knowledge, however labelling Fedorov lazy is far from accurate in my opinion. A former league MVP, a two time Selke winner for the best defensive forward, a Cup winner, the Pearson award, and 5 all-star games?? He was a plus player every single year until he was traded to the Ducks. He definately doesn't have the same drive he once did, but to label him lazy after having the best career of any Russian up to this point. That's a little harsh don't you think?? Plus, he's 38 years old!
Yeah I guess so. He certainly wasn't lazy back in the day, I didn't mean that at all. I just mean he seems lazy now, but he is old so I guess age has something to do with not performing as he once did. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 13:36:26
|
| I here ya Mik. Plus, he's getting another $6 million next year. He will be 39 and more than likely retire. So, what's his motivation for playing hard?? It's not like CBJ will have a chance in hell of winning anything next year. |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 14:07:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I here ya Mik. Plus, he's getting another $6 million next year. He will be 39 and more than likely retire. So, what's his motivation for playing hard?? It's not like CBJ will have a chance in hell of winning anything next year.
His biggest concern now is playing out his contract without getting injured.
"Go chase headlights!" |
|
|
|
PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 15:25:07
|
| I say a lazy player is someone who doesn't play hard in all three zones. And PuckNuts what you said about Joe Sakic and how he works hard and wasn't a + player for a long time but honestly I have never seen him play but when he was a +14 the most in his carrer the Avalanche won the cup. |
|
|
|
vladyfan
Top Prospect
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 16:57:02
|
Here are some Russian players who I believe are lazy
Alex Kovalev
Ilya Kovalchuck
Alexandre Frolov
Alexandre Ovechkin
Alexandre Semin
Evgeni Malkin
Slava Kozlov
Alexei Yashin
Now here are some players who I believe are not lazy
Maxim Afinogenov
Sergei Zubov
Pavel Datsyuk
Andrei Markov
Sergei Gonchar
Dmitri Kallinin
Anton Volchenkov
I disagree about Ovie... I think he is getting tired of being run all the time.
A fantastic NON-LAZY Russian.... Konstantinov. Man, I miss him. He was fantastic.
I agree about Feds, he has gotten very complacent over the years. Once he left Motown, I think that he was done.... really before that. He could be so incredible, but just sulked.
(I was on the Quest for the Cup thread and read that people think newbies should post elsewhere.... here's my two cents!!)
And as a Detroit fan, I DO think that Datsyuk is VERY lazy... I am afraid he is like Feds.
"Don't want it, Don't need it, Don't want your war machine" - Nova Driver |
|
|
|
fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 19:32:31
|
All Russians are pretty lazy, let's face it. Everybody has a bad game or a bad series, but most Russians simply don't care in the long run. Name one Russian currently playing who has the heart of a guy like Ryan Smyth (although I could name 30 more talented). He'd play with a compound fracture if he had to.
Who would you rather have on your team? Alexi Yashin or a bag of new pucks? I'd take the pucks.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
|
|
|
1 Crosby fan
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1454 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 21:46:19
|
Well i agree except for the ovie-one because he GOT some linemates he wouldn't be called "lazy"
Viktor Kozlov is my hero |
|
|
|
PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2007 : 15:35:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by 1 Crosby fan
Well i agree except for the ovie-one because he GOT some linemates he wouldn't be called "lazy"
Viktor Kozlov is my hero
Good point 1CF and what you guys have all said you have changed my desicion about where OVI is now he is a player not lazy. |
|
|
|
PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 08:38:30
|
| Another not lazy Russian Sergei Brylin!! |
|
|
|
BigShow
Rookie
177 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 11:07:35
|
Great topic.
If we're going by the definition of playing hard in all zones as laziness, i'd say Kovalchuk is amongst the worst. He is a total floater int he defensive zone. And for the exact opposite reason, Slava Kozlov should be in the hard working list.
Pavel Bure was a real joy to watch in the years where he had something to prove. There were five of those years, one of them he wrecked his knee about 13 games into the season, of the other four the worst two of them he had 59 goals. Even though his defense wasn't great, he was such a threat that teams had to play around him. After his first bad injury he floated for a couple years, then put up the pair of 59 goal seasons at the end of his career. Why would he have several 30 goal years bookended by 59+ goal seasons? My thought always was that his heart wasn't in it.
For great overall performers, the older Russians, that really seemed to value the freedom after thieri defections seemed the best. Larionov, Fetisov, Kostantinov, Federov - Detroit was built around those guys (not to say that Shanahan, Yzerman, Verbeek, Lidstrom and Hull weren't great too) Besides Konstantinov they didn't play really aggressively, but their positioning and puck movement made them threats anywhere on the ice.
Kovalev has always been a floater. He had one season where he really lit it up, showing what a threat he could be, but generally he just doesn't seem to care at all.
The young guy Zherdev, in CBJ seems the same. Oodles of talent, but no fire in the belly. That is one of the big reasons they brought Federov in. Someone that speaks the same language and could really show the kid the ropes.
I suspect we see so many of these types of Russian players because they are taught that way back home. They have a real skill for cherrypicking and getting the breakaways. But that same skill is what puts them out of position defensively. As Don Cherry has said a million times, they are cheating when they play that way. It puts a lot of pressure on the rest of the line, and is a big reason why those players are usually a hefty minus. |
|
|
|
Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 13:58:58
|
| If you want to argue Malkin's lazy, remember in the RSL they only play 40 games a year. So the reason he started slowing down at the end of the season is probably because he was tired from playing double the amount of games. He has to get used to it, and will get better after each season and exercising over the summer. |
|
|
|
GOWINGS19
Rookie
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 17:54:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by vladyfan
Here are some Russian players who I believe are lazy
Alex Kovalev
Ilya Kovalchuck
Alexandre Frolov
Alexandre Ovechkin
Alexandre Semin
Evgeni Malkin
Slava Kozlov
Alexei Yashin
Now here are some players who I believe are not lazy
Maxim Afinogenov
Sergei Zubov
Pavel Datsyuk
Andrei Markov
Sergei Gonchar
Dmitri Kallinin
Anton Volchenkov
I disagree about Ovie... I think he is getting tired of being run all the time.
A fantastic NON-LAZY Russian.... Konstantinov. Man, I miss him. He was fantastic.
I agree about Feds, he has gotten very complacent over the years. Once he left Motown, I think that he was done.... really before that. He could be so incredible, but just sulked.
(I was on the Quest for the Cup thread and read that people think newbies should post elsewhere.... here's my two cents!!)
And as a Detroit fan, I DO think that Datsyuk is VERY lazy... I am afraid he is like Feds.
"Don't want it, Don't need it, Don't want your war machine" - Nova Driver
yeah federov...man he's a great player but his last year here it seemed like his motivation was gone...every once in awhile i see it in datsyuk but their numbers don't like...they are both great players nonetheless...and like you...i miss vladdie 16 believe
You find that you have peace of mind and can enjoy yourself, get more sleep, and rest when you know that it was a one hundred percent effort that you gave - win or lose. -Gordie Howe |
|
|
|
KariyaSelanne
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
297 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2007 : 16:39:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by vladyfan
Here are some Russian players who I believe are lazy
Alex Kovalev
Ilya Kovalchuck
Alexandre Frolov
Alexandre Ovechkin
Alexandre Semin
Evgeni Malkin
Slava Kozlov
Alexei Yashin
Now here are some players who I believe are not lazy
Maxim Afinogenov
Sergei Zubov
Pavel Datsyuk
Andrei Markov
Sergei Gonchar
Dmitri Kallinin
Anton Volchenkov
I disagree about Ovie... I think he is getting tired of being run all the time.
A fantastic NON-LAZY Russian.... Konstantinov. Man, I miss him. He was fantastic.
I agree about Feds, he has gotten very complacent over the years. Once he left Motown, I think that he was done.... really before that. He could be so incredible, but just sulked.
(I was on the Quest for the Cup thread and read that people think newbies should post elsewhere.... here's my two cents!!)
And as a Detroit fan, I DO think that Datsyuk is VERY lazy... I am afraid he is like Feds.
"Don't want it, Don't need it, Don't want your war machine" - Nova Driver
Wow, alot of Alex-'s there. |
|
|
|
Guest4024
( )
|
Posted - 05/07/2007 : 19:00:41
|
| remember though, Malkin is thinking of playing back in Russia because of all the media and stuff. |
|
|
|
fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 07:38:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4024
remember though, Malkin is thinking of playing back in Russia because of all the media and stuff.
I have never once heard that before.
After what he went through to get OUT of Russia, I'd highly doubt he'd want to go back. You need to check your sources.
Anyway, Malkin looks like a very typical Russian star player. Capable of a highlight reel goal, but invisible for the important moments of the game.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
|
|
|
Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 12:57:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4024
remember though, Malkin is thinking of playing back in Russia because of all the media and stuff.
LOL No no no, that article I posted here about that was an April Fool's joke. He's not really thinking of going back to Russia, he's staying here. |
|
|
|
FROM_RUSSIA
Top Prospect
Russia
34 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 14:27:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4024
remember though, Malkin is thinking of playing back in Russia because of all the media and stuff.
LOL No no no, that article I posted here about that was an April Fool's joke. He's not really thinking of going back to Russia, he's staying here.
LOL LOL LOL, Bealive me, we are (Russian) just being glat to see, Malkin, Ovechkin and all oures plaiers at home. In our Championship. *uck NHL - it's a show, it's not play, resident evel ))) Rosiya vpered!! OLE OLE (sory for my English) |
Edited by - FROM_RUSSIA on 05/09/2007 14:28:34 |
|
|
|
Saku Steen
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1102 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 03:38:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4024
remember though, Malkin is thinking of playing back in Russia because of all the media and stuff.
LOL No no no, that article I posted here about that was an April Fool's joke. He's not really thinking of going back to Russia, he's staying here.
Thats pretty funny. I remember that..... |
|
|
|
hithere311
Rookie
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 07:25:55
|
quote:
After what he went through to get OUT of Russia, I'd highly doubt he'd want to go back. You need to check your sources.
Thats not true at all. Why wouldn't someone want to go back, and why wouldn't he want to play in his home country? And why would it be hard to get back into Russia? |
|
|
|
FROM_RUSSIA
Top Prospect
Russia
34 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 07:52:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by hithere311
[quote]
Thats not true at all. Why wouldn't someone want to go back, and why wouldn't he want to play in his home country? And why would it be hard to get back into Russia?
+1, it's not hard. When in NHL was a Lockout, many famous players, play in Russia........ mmm for exemple Jagr, and many others. Why ours "boy" can't to go back.??? I don't know. |
|
|
|
Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 11:38:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by hithere311
Thats not true at all. Why wouldn't someone want to go back, and why wouldn't he want to play in his home country? And why would it be hard to get back into Russia?
Lol read my previous post. I posted an April Fool's article here about him returning to Metallurg. Of course it's not true, Malkin's not going back to Russia. He's staying with the NHL. |
|
|
|
fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 20:50:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by hithere311
quote:
After what he went through to get OUT of Russia, I'd highly doubt he'd want to go back. You need to check your sources.
Thats not true at all. Why wouldn't someone want to go back, and why wouldn't he want to play in his home country? And why would it be hard to get back into Russia?
Dude or dudette, if you do not know the story of how Malkin got out of Russia to get to Pittsburgh, I have no time for you.
Google it.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
|
|
|
FROM_RUSSIA
Top Prospect
Russia
34 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 10:25:06
|
And we'll hope and believe, that sometime all of them to come back home))))
Though...... As has told Kovalchuk: "If I want to play for a Russian national team, nothing will stop me"
|
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
Russian Players 
