| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
|
|
PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
 Posted - 05/01/2007 : 20:25:41
|
| Now since I'm only 13 I never actually saw that game. And a guy like Willus you have probably seen it. My question to you Willus did those plays really happen and if they did how did Canada get away with it? |
 |
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 20:38:23
|
The plays actually happened. I think I should let this one build a little more. I have a feeling a few people that watched it will weigh in on it.
I will say that those dives were pretty incredible. Greg Louganis has nothing on Lemieux and Gretz. 
"Go chase headlights!" |
|
|
|
Guest4462
( )
|
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 23:04:03
|
I could easily put together a piece of crap like this to show the other side of the equatoin as well.. it's not difficult to show and extremely biased representation of 'partial facts'.
i saw each one of the games and I would say that they were not refereed very well in general, but in the end, after look at ALL the calls and non calls, it didnt affect the outcome. |
|
|
|
Guest4024
( )
|
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 23:18:06
|
damn
that was really dirty. i felt sorry for the soviets LOL. |
|
|
|
Guest2049
( )
|
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 00:08:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4024
damn
that was really dirty. i felt sorry for the soviets LOL.
that is what the author intended. |
|
|
|
andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 07:12:23
|
I agree that anything can be edited in a way to show a certain viewpoint, but I do think that Canadian fans tend to be a little bit over-defensive about this type of thing. Canadians sometimes dive, Canadians sometimes cheat, Canadian sometimes cheapshot big-time. The "it all evens out in the end" point is basically understood, at least when looking at bad calls or missed calls, but would the same Canadian fans who use that line now still use it if Canada would have ended up on the losing side in '87 or '72 (which was won in large part due to Clarke purposefully and willfully "terminating" the services of the Soviets superstar player)? Yes, I am Canadian and love Canadian hockey, but I think it is blindly biased to not realize that it sometimes has produced things that you shouldn't necessarily be very proud of.
Off to be purposefully and willfully "terminated" by some Canadian on the streets of Toronto for daring to throw that opinion your way. |
Edited by - andyhack on 05/02/2007 10:14:55 |
|
|
|
tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 11:04:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by andyhack
I agree that anything can be edited in a way to show a certain viewpoint, but I do think that Canadian fans tend to be a little bit over-defensive about this type of thing. Canadians sometimes dive, Canadians sometimes cheat, Canadian sometimes cheapshot big-time. The "it all evens out in the end" point is basically understood, at least when looking at bad calls or missed calls, but would the same Canadian fans who use that line now still use it if Canada would have ended up on the losing side in '87 or '72 (which was won in large part due to Clarke purposefully and willfully "terminating" the services of the Soviets superstar player)? Yes, I am Canadian and love Canadian hockey, but I think it is blindly biased to not realize that it sometimes has produced things that you shouldn't necessarily be very proud of.
Off to be purposefully and willfully "terminated" by some Canadian on the streets of Toronto for daring to throw that opinion your way.
I agree with you Andyhack - at least that your points had to be made for a compete discussion. I myself think that overall the calls helped us a bit more than the Soviets, but that's usually the name of the game in situations like this (home field advantage). Now saying that, the linked video surely makes a biased point and the actually happenings were not nearly as dramatic as the point they exaggerate. |
|
|
|
Lrocker
Top Prospect
Canada
26 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 11:09:23
|
Hmm, Don Koharski was the ref. Somewhere Jim Schoenfeld is saying, "Hello!!! I knew he was a crap ref"
This season Koharski is still refereeing in the playoffs, and the media is all complaining about how bad the games are. Well, don't blame the crap refs for a crap game.
"Bye Bye!" John McLaughlin |
|
|
|
Guest4697
( )
|
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 12:00:18
|
| I remember watching that series when I was younger...what an exciting series! Cappy calls were certainly something that seemed to go both ways on a lot of calls, even some of the biased video clips showed a number of nice dives from the Russians as well. Plus the biasedness of the video is also doubled by younger viewers who have become used to the new NHL and how penalties are called today, not the same as it was 20 years ago. It does create interesting discussion but its really not very relevant now is it? |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 14:11:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4697
I remember watching that series when I was younger...what an exciting series! Cappy calls were certainly something that seemed to go both ways on a lot of calls, even some of the biased video clips showed a number of nice dives from the Russians as well. Plus the biasedness of the video is also doubled by younger viewers who have become used to the new NHL and how penalties are called today, not the same as it was 20 years ago. It does create interesting discussion but its really not very relevant now is it?
Relevant to what? Relative to a section of a forum called Hockey History? Yeah, I'd say so. Relative to someone who doesn't concern himself with history? Nope.
"If you're travelling in a vehicle at the speed of light and you turn your lights on, do they do anything?" - Steven Wright |
|
|
|
leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 15:59:12
|
I agree with guest 4697 regarding how younger viewers will percieve that video montage. By today's standards that video is appauling. But I witnessed that series first-hand at 17 years of age, and while we all sat there and bitched about the calls and non-calls, we all knew that what went around came around. It went both ways and if a guy wanted to he could create a video showing it the other way around.
Diving really was diving back then...I mean you could clearly see a guy "swan dive" (a la Gretzky in the video) It was not like today where most dives are not dives at all, they are refs power tripping. The only real divers left in the game are goalies who get shot from the bleachers but some how survive without a mark on them (Hasek). This is why I have such a hard time discussing infractions with younger fans today....they have little frame of reference, or perhaps our frame of reference is too leanient. Regardless, the perspectives are far apart.
But back to the topic...back then if a guy stood in your crease you leveled him. And remember that the bigger the prize, the less the refs called (just like in playoffs). So in 87 with the tourny on the line and NHL refs calling the play, they let more go. It's not that the refs didn't let it go for the Russians too, it just so happened that proportionately speaking, the Russians were a cleaner hockey team (but all European teams were back then) |
|
|
|
Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 16:14:08
|
| I wasn't even alive back then, but that video was obviously skewered to portray Canada in a negative sense in that game. The first two penalties called on Vyacheslav Bykov looked reasonable to me. He interfered with the Canadian guy and later tripped him. So what's the big fuss about him getting penalties there? He deserved them. Plus, if you want to argue that the Canadians were being 'brutal', keep this in mind. They weren't "Russia" back then, they were the USSR. There were Cold War tensions between the West and the Soviets, and some of that probably carried over into international hockey tournaments. Naturally there was going to be some roughing on the rink. |
|
|
|
Saku Steen
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1102 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 16:24:10
|
| I have to say some of those non-penalties were bad. The punch to the face and the cross checks definaltly should have been called. The soviets penalties (except fot the 2nd one) were penalties. |
|
|
|
fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 23:05:21
|
I am the most loyal, die-hard fan of Canadian hockey there is. I am also willing to go on record saying that yes, sometimes Canadians dive, and yes sometimes Canadians are dirty.
But man was that a biased piece of garbage. I watched every second of every game of the Canada Cup that year (and every other year), and let's get one thing crystal clear...
The Czechs have been and are the worst divers in international hockey. The Russians are a close second. Any attempt to make it look like Canadian hockey is even in their league when it comes to diving is ridiculous. We do rank higher on the "dirty" scale, but we still do not spit, spear, and run people from behind like those two countries do. Us more than Sweden, though.
Now, you can believe a 5 minute video, or you can believe a guy (me) who has not missed a game of televised major international hockey in about twenty years.
Am I obsessed? Yes. Do I have a problem? I think so. But I'm serious, I have not missed a World Junior game since 1990. I have not missed an Olympic game since 1980. I have not missed a World Championship game since the early 90's sometime (whenever TSN started covering it). Canada/World Cup since 1981. Rendezvous series, you name it. This has taken dedication, and has cost me relationships. But the result:
I know what I'm talking about, and that was a biased piece of crap that showed about 1/20th of the truth. Anyone who thinks we outdive or out-hook the Russians has ZERO credibility with me. Period. It's ridiculous.
And yes, I still apologize to my brother-in-law, who in his infinite stupidity got married on the day Canada played the USA in game 3 of the 1996 World Cup final (which they lost). The date was September 14th. I remember it well, as does my wife. I never made it to the church.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
|
|
|
Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2007 : 17:38:05
|
Just about every time the Soviets tripped and took nasty falls, they tripped over their own feet or over one of their teammates who was on the ice. They weren't tripped by the Canadians. The falls they took were hard and at awkward ankles, which is why the author put them in there to make it look like the Canadians were being dirty. They weren't. They fell over their OWN FEET - look closely and you'll see, or on most of them you don't even have to look closely, it was obvious. So no duh penalties weren't called on Canada, there weren't needs for them!
And I don't know why people like whoever made that video feel sorry for the Soviets because they think the ref didn't call penalties (which, for the most part, weren't penalties), when in the 1972 Summit Series the ref was even worse. Josef Kompalla officiated so horrendously that you had to wonder if he was trying to throw the game. He gave tons of penalties to Canada over the slightest things, but hardly any to the Russians. He was much worse to Canada then than Koharski was to the Soviets in that video. Even in the 1980 US-USSR game, Petrov clearly slashed one of the US players and the ref didn't call it. It's not like the Soviets didn't get away with obvious penalties. There's no room to complain that Canada got away with questionable calls when the Russians clearly have in years past. But what's done is done, Canada won both the 1987 Cup and the 72 Summit Series, and rightly so.
|
Edited by - Mikhailova on 05/07/2007 17:41:37 |
|
|
|
Guest4988
( )
|
Posted - 05/07/2007 : 18:53:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4697
I remember watching that series when I was younger...what an exciting series! Cappy calls were certainly something that seemed to go both ways on a lot of calls, even some of the biased video clips showed a number of nice dives from the Russians as well. Plus the biasedness of the video is also doubled by younger viewers who have become used to the new NHL and how penalties are called today, not the same as it was 20 years ago. It does create interesting discussion but its really not very relevant now is it?
This was why the game went to s***s in the 90s and 00s. It started back then. I still remember one sequence in the NHL where a defencemen was tobaggan riding Lemieux all the way from the centreline with no penalty called. Somehow Mario fought him off and still scored. Or Mtl 93 series where Vinnie Damphousse sling shotted pass a defencemen by hooking him.
It was crazy. Even the fans got into it because they would boo a ref for making too many calls. Remember when Don Cherry would say just let them play? It is called looser now than when they returned from the strike. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
How Canada Won in 87 ... 
