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Guest9910
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 Posted - 05/14/2007 : 09:18:32
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I'm curious to know what you guys think, especially those who saw Bobby Orr play. He is pretty much regarded as the best offensive defensman of all time, but do you think if he'd been transported in a time machine to the 1980s to replace Paul Coffey, that he'd score more points than Coffey? And if so, do you think he would have been a better fit for Gretzky?
Logic would say that he could have been better, however, if speaking only about offensive numbers, I'm not so sure. Coffey was the best long breakout passer I've ever seen, and this is how Gretzky got so many of his points -- Coffey's long breakout pass. He could have been behind his own goal line, and the puck was sent up like a laser, right on the tape of Gretzky at center ice almost everytime. It was uncanny. Gretzky calls him the best he's ever seen at that passi
Would Orr have changed the enitre style of the Oilers? Would Gretzky have scored 250 points a year? What do you think?
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2007 : 10:12:03
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What a surprise ! I thought for sure this would be a fan-based Orr love-in when I read the title. But you bring up the very 2 points I was going to make ! Gretzky would have scored less due to fact that Orr would have simply possessed the puck more. And I wholeheartedly believe that a defenseman simply cannot score any more than Coffey and Orr's totals. They pretty much maxed out what scoring a D-man can do. Can a d-man have a 50 goal season ? Major changes to the very make-up of the way the game is played is about the only way that could happen.
I was with Gretzky (I mean on his side, not actually right there beside him (' ') when he was against allowing the 2-line pass because it seemed like that would be a new era in hockey. Wrong.
How about when moving the nets out, then back was supposed to increase scoring. Wrong-o again.
Only something astounding would have to happen to create the oppurtunity for a defenseman (or anyone for that matter) to score that much again. |
Edited by - 99pickles on 05/14/2007 10:13:04 |
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Guest9910
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Posted - 05/14/2007 : 11:25:02
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And to think Paul Coffey came within two goals of reaching 50!
(Year Team Games Goals Assists Points)
1985-86 Edmonton Oilers 79 48 90 138
That year was really remarkable. Coffey almost beat Lemieux in the scoring race, and Gretzky finished with around 75 points ahead of both of them! It's really quite mind blowing. The more you disect the numbers, the more you realize Gretzky was an alien.
Coffey also had 90 assists that year! He was the perfect fit for Gretzky and Kurri. You are right, I don't think Orr's style would have fit their style, though perhaps the style he would have brought may have just as fruitful? Who knows. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2007 : 16:55:14
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Gretzky's numbers would go up as he would now be playing with the other smartest player to play the game.
Orr's numbers go up because he's now playing in the highest scoring era ever. On that team I don't see it being unreasonable that Orr gets 170, 180 points or more. I think you would have seen Gretz with more goals but fewer assists.
Coffey was not Orr people. Not even close.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2007 : 18:28:16
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Oh yeah, I forgot. Gretzky probably would not lead the ESGA category with Orr on the Oilers. 
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2007 : 20:47:27
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| Orr definitely would have had higher point totals - anyone who played in a different era would have had more points in the 80's. Keep in mind that '67 to about '80 would have been the second highest scoring era, historically. Perhaps it was Gretzky/Lemieux/a few others that singlehandedly (uh.. 'multi' handedly?) made the eighties slightly higher scoring than the '70's. You know what though...when If's and But's are candy and nuts, we'll all have a merry christmas, right ?? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 08:16:37
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| Hey Willus, by you saying Gretzky would not have lead ESGA with Orr as his Defenseman, are you saying that he was not solely responsible for that?? If that's the case, what is your arguement for him being "the worst defensive player of his generation?" |
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Guest2628
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Posted - 05/15/2007 : 12:03:35
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Gretzky and the rest of the Oilers would have been the lucky recipients of many more points with Bobby Orr on defense instead of Paul Coffey. While Paul Coffey was a great player in his own right consider that Orr played in a considerably lower scoring era yet lead the Bruins to score 399 goals in 70-71 when he was 22 and amassed 139 points. This means he figured in 34 percent of the goals scored. Coffey scored 138 points and the Oilers had 426 goals for 32 percent. Orr also was busy winning the Norris something like 8 times(not to mention all the other trophies).
Conversely, Orr would have been the luck recipient of playing with Gretzky and Co too. Hands down, Bobby Orr was the greatest defenseman to ever play and he played both ends of the ice (also protected himself in scraps too). Not taking anything away from Coffey...but he would be number 2 at best. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 12:12:13
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| I think it only makes sense that Orr would have made one of the greatest teams ever a better team. It would be like saying if Lemieux and Gretzky were on the same team. Special players make everyone around them better. That works the same when two special players are together as well. Not always, as sometimes those special players are a bit selfish(Bure), but seeing as Gretzky and Orr were both known for great passing, I can't see how this would have been anything but an improvement for both, and the other players around them. |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 01:55:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Hey Willus, by you saying Gretzky would not have lead ESGA with Orr as his Defenseman, are you saying that he was not solely responsible for that?? If that's the case, what is your arguement for him being "the worst defensive player of his generation?"
I cannot believe I missed the brilliance of this statement the first time around. This is truly a spot-on observation. Well done. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 05:15:38
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First, I think that Orr would have gotten out of that time machine and said, "that was pretty cool".
Second, he would have seen the style of play in the '80s, and particularly in the West, and said "that's pretty cool too".
Third, after being introduced to Gretzky's game, he would have quickly recognized the great vision of the Great One and decided to alter his game a bit to adjust to the fellow genius on his team - and he would have said, "I'll get more passes from out of nowhere now - that probably means more goals now, and, with this other great passer on the team, probably more second assists now too - that's pretty cool too"
Fourth (has to be a 4th with Bobby), throughout the decade, he would skate like a butterfly (do they skate?) sting like a B (to maintain his Boston connection) and then scream out, "Even in the 1980s, nobody is better than BOBBYYYY!!!!!" |
Edited by - andyhack on 05/17/2007 05:17:21 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 05:58:56
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quote:
Originally posted by 99pickles
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Hey Willus, by you saying Gretzky would not have lead ESGA with Orr as his Defenseman, are you saying that he was not solely responsible for that?? If that's the case, what is your arguement for him being "the worst defensive player of his generation?"
I cannot believe I missed the brilliance of this statement the first time around. This is truly a spot-on observation. Well done.
He's 17% responsible which is a constant.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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Guest8808
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Posted - 05/17/2007 : 07:47:02
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ya deffinattely orr was the best d man ever. I even think he would have better vison than greztky and i think gretzky would adjust to orrs game and orr was not just the best d man ever he was the best player ever all around!!!!!!!!!! |
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Guest8808
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Posted - 05/17/2007 : 07:54:38
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oh ya and look at it like this how many points did esposito get with orr and how many did he get without or the whole boston team even after orr left the played at a whole different level of the team or was in another world you cant even compare him with coffey like im the bigest oiler fan but orr is better than coffey 139 points without having a gretzky a kurri a messier every single one of those guys i just name was better than any player on that boston team except for ORR!!!!!!!!!!
ORR IS THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Would Orr have scored more than Coffey on Edm.? 
