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manninm
PickupHockey Pro
USA
347 Posts |
 Posted - 06/04/2007 : 05:48:18
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Here's the link. I think it's ridiculous that Pronger gets suspended for a game and guys like Chris Neil can hit opponents full speed with his arms up and he gets nothing. Difference be, Pronger injured somebody, Neil did not.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 06:53:17
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And also Pronger has a bad reputation after the Holmstrom hit and Manninm I can't see the link I didn't see the hit I would like to see it. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 07:02:35
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Pronger the goon? 
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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manninm
PickupHockey Pro
USA
347 Posts |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 07:32:09
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quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
And also Pronger has a bad reputation after the Holmstrom hit and Manninm I can't see the link I didn't see the hit I would like to see it.
Prongers elbow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hzlI1TqL6w
(Time differance Pickuphockey-Sweden approx +9 hours 1min 5sek......so I can always blame it on Jetlag.) |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 07:48:50
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| McAmmond has had concussion problems in the past, that's why the hit was more devestating to him. But how is Pronger supposed to know who has concussion problems and who doesn't? He can't keep a list of this and be expected to remember it all and make sure to avoid those guys, he's got other things to worry about. Had he hit anyone else it would not have been quite as bad as it was to McAmmond. The Ducks are in for it now, without Pronger they're missing a key d-man. I hope they can still win, but you never know... |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 08:08:18
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quote:
Originally posted by manninm
Here's the link. I think it's ridiculous that Pronger gets suspended for a game and guys like Chris Neil can hit opponents full speed with his arms up and he gets nothing. Difference be, Pronger injured somebody, Neil did not.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden
Agreed, it is ridiculous that there is not consistency and that it takes an injury to get a suspension.
You aren't saying Pronger's hit wasn't dirty though are you?
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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manninm
PickupHockey Pro
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 08:18:04
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by manninm
Here's the link. I think it's ridiculous that Pronger gets suspended for a game and guys like Chris Neil can hit opponents full speed with his arms up and he gets nothing. Difference be, Pronger injured somebody, Neil did not.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden
Agreed, it is ridiculous that there is not consistency and that it takes an injury to get a suspension.
You aren't saying Pronger's hit wasn't dirty though are you?
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
Not at all. The hit was clearly dirty and warranted a penalty. The suspension is fair, but it would've been more fair had he received 5 and a game and not the suspension. I'm saying the NHL waits for hits like these to cause injuries, then penalizes. They should penalize all hits like these, regardless of the result. I guarantee you Pronger keeps his arms down and doesn't leave his feet if he gets a minor penalty every time he even thinks about doing so.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 08:42:05
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i think the fact that the call is made after the game is ridiculous becuase if you're going to start reviewing games after they have taken place then why the hell not review the whole thing and dish out penalties for every dirty hit and dirty play of the game i mean if pronger's elbow can be penalized 12 hours after game night then why not neil he's a dirty pieace of crap out there,,, watching him play makes me want to put on the skates and level him so hard he'll think twice before charging players every chance he gets ,,,,( thats if i could possibly do that hahahaha) but the game has to be called in current time not this after the game when the player is hurt bull!!
Pasty |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 10:04:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
McAmmond has had concussion problems in the past, that's why the hit was more devestating to him. But how is Pronger supposed to know who has concussion problems and who doesn't? He can't keep a list of this and be expected to remember it all and make sure to avoid those guys, he's got other things to worry about. Had he hit anyone else it would not have been quite as bad as it was to McAmmond. The Ducks are in for it now, without Pronger they're missing a key d-man. I hope they can still win, but you never know...
Mik are you sure you're not being biased because OTT knocked out BUF? You are clearly cheering for ANA and you have made no bones about heavy suspensions in the past on these boards. I think the NHL hands out suspensions like candy at a birthday party but even I can plainly see that was a nasty elbow. His one against Holmstrom was no suspension in my opinion, but this one is for sure....he clearly lead with the elbow and made contact with it. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 10:18:46
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Oh and the reason they only seem to suspend hits/infractions that cause injuries is because those are the ones that stop play and everyone takes notice of. If no one goes down, or the refs don't catch it, or the media doesn't make a big deal about it - then the play goes on and no one notices. I'm not saying it is right but I am saying that this the main reason why it happens.
Hockey is a dangerous contact sport. If they suspended every offence then there would be no one left to play the game and we'd be watching peewee hockey for entertainment. Just suspend the nasty stuff and suck up the rest. This one...definitely suspension. |
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manninm
PickupHockey Pro
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 10:54:11
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Oh and the reason they only seem to suspend hits/infractions that cause injuries is because those are the ones that stop play and everyone takes notice of. If no one goes down, or the refs don't catch it, or the media doesn't make a big deal about it - then the play goes on and no one notices. I'm not saying it is right but I am saying that this the main reason why it happens.
Hockey is a dangerous contact sport. If they suspended every offence then there would be no one left to play the game and we'd be watching peewee hockey for entertainment. Just suspend the nasty stuff and suck up the rest. This one...definitely suspension.
I agree, but I believe if you started to penalize infractions regardless of the outcome, players would control themselves. I'm the last person that wants to see the physicality exit the game. I believe that if fighting was a mainstay in the game, the way it used to be, less hits like these would occur. But I also believe that in today's society fighting is not accepted, and, as unfortunate as this is, we as die hards must "go along with it." Therefore, I believe the NHL needs to get proactive at preventing hits like these. I also think that part of the reason Pronger was suspended was because there was no penalty on the play. Had he received 5 and a game, I think the NHL lets it go. My point is that until players get pealized for hits like this, both small and large, they'll continue to do so. If Neil gets penalized enough for hitting high, he'll stop.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 10:54:53
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Oh and the reason they only seem to suspend hits/infractions that cause injuries is because those
The way the process is set up is that the victimized team send in the evidence to NHL office and makes a appeal for a suspension. It's up to that team to decide which incidents that they want to appeal on. |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 11:02:25
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Mik are you sure you're not being biased because OTT knocked out BUF? You are clearly cheering for ANA and you have made no bones about heavy suspensions in the past on these boards. I think the NHL hands out suspensions like candy at a birthday party but even I can plainly see that was a nasty elbow. His one against Holmstrom was no suspension in my opinion, but this one is for sure....he clearly lead with the elbow and made contact with it.
Well I didn't say I didn't think Pronger should get suspended, but nasty as the hit was, the effect was exaggerated by a guy who was already prone to injury.
Maybe I am being a bit biased. But hey, it's the Cup finals against my second-to-least favorite team, I can't help it  |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 11:48:09
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I have many things to say one this one:
1) Mik, it's not the point that Pronger has to worry about who he's hitting as much as he has to be concerned with how he hits. That was clearly an elbow to the head. There was no attempt to make the hit any other way. And don't give me any crap that Pronger is 6'5"ish and McAmmond is 5'8"ish. That had nothing to do with it. If Pronger would have made a proper hockey hit and McAmmond got injured, that's the breaks. This was not a proper hockey hit.
2) Leigh, your argument that there would be no one left to play if all the suspensions were actually delivered is not the case. That was the same argument that "hockey purists" said about the increased calls of hooking/slashing/obstruction. Yeah, there have been a few more penalties called, but not so many to slow the game and after a couple of years the players are learning to change their game.
3) This situation proves the point that the NHL's system of suspensions does not do anything to stop the problems. I am not talking about the Scott Stevens on Lindros type of hits. Those are clean checks that hurt people. That is fine, that is part of the game. This kind of stuff that Pronger has done is not part of the game. A hit from behind and a clear elbow to the head are not part of hockey. And did anything negative happen to the Ducks or Pronger from it?? Nope. They are not in danger of losing the series because of a one game suspension.
Answer me one question. What is the difference between Pronger's elbow to McAmmond and Domi's elbow to Neidermeyer a couple of years back?? Both players knocked unconscious from an elbow to the head. The only difference in my mind is that Domi had momentum. So what?? Same situations, difference suspensions. Domi got the rest of the playoffs and 8 games of the next season when the Devil's took TO out of the playoffs. Why would Pronger not get the same suspension??
In the words of good old JR, Wake up NHL, wake up!
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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Guest9641
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Posted - 06/04/2007 : 12:50:49
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| The blow was clearly intentional, and Pronger got what he deserved period. You can't have players elbowing opponents in the head, in a stanley cup final series. Pronger needs to use his own head, instead of throwing elbows and forearms to other's heads...go sens go |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 14:01:17
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| This is absolutely ridiculous! TWICE in one playoff!? He obviously has a different strategy for dictating the flow of the game than the one he held to in last years' playoff. I found it pretty brutal how he neutralized Holmstrom with one dirty hit, and sat out only one game. That didn't teach him a lesson. Dean freakin' McCammond!?!?! He's just getting cocky now. This guy does not deserve to compete in such an important competition, and I think that if the Ducks do happen to win the Cup, a decision should be made to exclude the name "Chris Pronger" on hockey's grail, by reason of excessive unsportsmanlike conduct. |
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SlowShot
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
264 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 15:45:46
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I think he dosen't deserve to get suspended. If anyone does it's easily neil taking his 6 steps than going fist first into mcdonald also when pronger did his hit did you see neil the coward try to beat up niedymier because he was to scared of pronger.
GO DUCKS. YAY GIANTS |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 16:01:05
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I have never seen a player get suspended for something that typically warrents nothing more than a 2-minute penalty...This wasn't Bure in 94...This was just your "typical" elbowing penalty (The one that has got nothing more than 2 minutes since hockey began)..Chris better watch out, he might get suspended for a missed delay of game call.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
Edited by - I HATE CROSBY on 06/04/2007 16:01:37 |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 17:01:16
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[quote]Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
I have never seen a player get suspended for something that typically warrents nothing more than a 2-minute penalty...This wasn't Bure in 94...This was just your "typical" elbowing penalty (The one that has got nothing more than 2 minutes since hockey began)..Chris better watch out, he might get suspended for a missed delay of game call.
What? Did McCammond take a dive? No. He got drilled in the head by an overzealous elbow. Should that be tolerated? No. Has it been tolerated? Yes. Twice. In one month. You are IHC. I am IHP. |
Edited by - OILINONTARIO on 06/04/2007 17:02:44 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 17:55:32
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C'mon IHC, stop trying to climb the sh*t rope here. There is a huge difference between a player getting his elbows up a little on a hit and what Pronger did to McAmmond. Watch the replay and tell me if ANY part of Pronger's body outside of his elbow ever made contact with McAmmond. The Moore hit on Naslund that started that whole stupid thing was a hit that turned into an elbow. Yes, that will happen in hockey. Pronger on McAmmond was pure elbow and nothing but. How many times a game does a player get a step on the slow footed Pronger who doesn't get decapetated?? Lots!
What's the difference between this hit and Domi on Neidermayer?? I'll tell you. Of the one's doing the hitting, one is a Norris and Hart winner(Pronger), the other is not(Domi). Of those getting hit, one is a Norris Trophy winner(Neidermayer), the other is not an award winner of any kind(McAmmond). Same type of situations, same outcome. Different treatment.
Sorry, couldn't find a clean video of the Domi hit, it's at the 1:25 mark of the first link.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wOAxYWeQWxE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1hzlI1TqL6w
My point is that the same action deserves the same discipline, regardless of outcome and/or players involved.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
Edited by - Beans15 on 06/04/2007 17:57:12 |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 19:20:42
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| Don Cherry gave an interesting perspective on it. He seemed to think it was more an accident, that Pronger just bumped into McAmmond with his elbow. Upon closer replay, it does kind of look like that, he had his elbow up and was skating forward and ran into McAmmond. Maybe it was intentional, maybe not, but that was an interesting thought. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 23:35:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
...2) Leigh, your argument that there would be no one left to play if all the suspensions were actually delivered is not the case...
Totally agree Beans. I was was exaggerating to emphasize my point that the NHL suspends for far too many things and that everytime they suspend someone the measuring stick gets lowered...eventually instead of penalties they will just hand out suspensions....again an exaggeration.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
...What's the difference between this hit and Domi on Neidermayer?? I'll tell you. Of the one's doing the hitting, one is a Norris and Hart winner(Pronger), the other is not(Domi). Of those getting hit, one is a Norris Trophy winner(Neidermayer), the other is not an award winner of any kind(McAmmond). Same type of situations, same outcome. Different treatment...
Interesting comparison. Although I think they were incredibly different. The Domi elbow was one of the worst I've seen since I've been watching hockey. Actually the difference is very measureable in my opinion:
1) In this Pronger situation both players were going the same direction as the gap was closing (Pronger backing up, McAmmond going forward). In the Domi hit both players were heading straight on compounding the impact.
2) In the Domi hit, Neidermayer was not even in the play, in fact the play was 60 feet away and Neidermayer was looking back at the play and not at the oncoming Domi.
3) Domi's hit was a vicious attempt to injure. For those of you who want to know what an "attempt to injure" really looks like you can check out that hit for a lesson. Pronger's was a reactionary botched reaching attempt (ugly and suspendable none-the-less)
I think the NHL did a good job suspending a "superstar" in the Stanley Cup finals who also just got a suspension in the semi's. That takes balls. I think they got it right with a single game. Pronger is on notice and the NHL has sent a strong message that it doesn't matter who you are, or in what part of the season it is, if you offend, you and your team will be reasonably penalized. Good job. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 07:02:57
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I don't disagree with everything you said Leigh, sorry I missed the sarcasim. It's sometimes hard to tell from written words.
One thing I disagree with you on is that the NHL got this right. One game is nothing. The real message would have been the rest of the series.
And my point on the Domi comparison is that both were direct elbows to the head with no attempt for a check. My point is regardless of the situation, location, players involved, it's the action that should be punished, not the outcome.
Cheers.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 07:35:56
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Well the Ducks won even without Pronger, and now he's back. All worked out well  |
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Pronger suspended for game 4 
