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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
 Posted - 06/07/2007 : 11:32:37
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Scott Niedermeyer now has another Stanley Cup (4 in total) and a Conn Smythe. Here's a list of his accomplishments: World Junior Champion, Memorial Cup Champion, World Champion, Olympic Champion, Stanley Cup Champion (x4), World Cup Champion, Conn Smythe Winner, Norris Trophy winner.
He probably has about 5 more years of elite level hockey in him. Where does he rank for all time defensemen now? Does he crack the top ten?
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 12:20:20
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I would say he would be a top 10 all time d-man. His statistics are very solid for a defenseman as well. Not only that, but his style of play is a pleasure to watch. Only one guy comes to mind who was a better pure skater.
Definately a HOF guy, and stand up embassador to the game, and a great hockey player. If Burnaby Joe doesn't play in the next Olympics, it's gotta be Niedermeyer's 'C'
Top ten in my books.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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stastnysforever
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
301 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 16:19:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I would say he would be a top 10 all time d-man. His statistics are very solid for a defenseman as well. Not only that, but his style of play is a pleasure to watch. Only one guy comes to mind who was a better pure skater.
Definately a HOF guy, and stand up embassador to the game, and a great hockey player. If Burnaby Joe doesn't play in the next Olympics, it's gotta be Niedermeyer's 'C'
Top ten in my books.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
With all the special treatment crosby gets it'll be his "C"
what do Calgary and a tea bag have in common- they're both only good for one cup |
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-oil-country-
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
988 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 16:31:56
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As I am only 13 I haven't witnessed many of the greats but heard about them more heard of them. My top ten would be.
1. Bobby Orr
2. Paul Coffey
3. Ray Bourque
4. Doug Harvey
5. Brad Park
6. Eddie Shore
7. Dennis Potvin
8. Larry Murphy
9. Scott Niedermayer
10. Scott Stevens/Al Macinnis
Go ahead Oldies on this site (no offense) eat it up and point me in the right direction.
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
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Guest0944
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Posted - 06/07/2007 : 19:02:03
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quote:
Originally posted by -oil-country-
As I am only 13 I haven't witnessed many of the greats but heard about them more heard of them. My top ten would be.
1. Bobby Orr
2. Paul Coffey
3. Ray Bourque
4. Doug Harvey
5. Brad Park
6. Eddie Shore
7. Dennis Potvin
8. Larry Murphy
9. Scott Niedermayer
10. Scott Stevens/Al Macinnis
Go ahead Oldies on this site (no offense) eat it up and point me in the right direction.
You got some good ones there but there will be a dispute in order. But you may have typed the wrong Larry in there. Robinson there would be little dispute. Murphy, please state your case. |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 19:07:14
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I have him in the top ten...
1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey
3. Paul Coffey
4. Tim Horton
5. Ray Bourque
6. Eddie Shore
7. Larry Robinson
8. Dennis Potvin
9. Scott Niedermayer
10. Brad Park
11. Scott Stevens
12. Borje Salming
13. Serge Sevard
14. Al Macinnis
15. Pierre Pilot
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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Edited by - PuckNuts on 06/07/2007 19:08:06 |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 19:26:23
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Niedermayer is a true winner and a great leader. He is definately top ten. And he's still got a lot of more years on him if he can play over 30 minutes a game.
----------That a boy Selanne---------- |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 19:42:08
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My List
1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey (I'll just take everyone's word on it anyway)
3. Denis Potvin
4. Ray Bourque
5. Brad Park
6. Larry Robinson
7. Nicolas Lidstrom
8. Chris Chelios
9. Scott Niedermayer
10. Serge Savard
* some of the oldtimers probably would crack this list but I don't know how to fit them in
** Rather than thinking about how Coffey should fit in, I excluded him cause he was kind of a hybrid winger. He would, however, be close to Number 1, if not Number 1, on my list of most unique players in the history of hockey. I mean I have him 20th on the "best since 1970" list but still can't justify putting him and his mediocre defensive abilities in the top ten best defenseman list. The guy was an interesting case!
*** Anyway, Scotty is high up there! Not cause he has won 4 Cups, but just cause he is very solid! |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 04:48:03
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Niedermayer is a good d-man.
And considering lists what about guys like Phil Housley and Viacheslav Fetisov?
(Time differance Pickuphockey-Sweden approx +9 hours 1min 5sek......so I can always blame it on Jetlag.) |
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manninm
PickupHockey Pro
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 05:48:05
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He's there for me too...
1. Bobby Orr
2. Paul Coffey
3. Doug Harvey
4. Tim Horton
5. Denis Potvin
6. Ray Bourque
7. Larry Robinson
8. Eddie Shore
9. Brad Park
10. Scott Niedermayer
11. Borje Salming
12. Nick Lidstrom
13. Scott Stevens
14. Pierre Pilotte
15. Al Macinnis
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 06:54:28
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quote:
Originally posted by I´m also Cånädiön
Niedermayer is a good d-man.
And considering lists what about guys like Phil Housley and Viacheslav Fetisov?
(Time differance Pickuphockey-Sweden approx +9 hours 1min 5sek......so I can always blame it on Jetlag.)
Phil Housley doesn't even make my top 50 defensemen. Maybe top 100.
If we were considering non NHLer's then Fetisov cracks the top ten. When I posted the thread I was thinking NHL. You mentioned in another thread that you have heard some say Fetisov was better than Orr. I've never met anyone who would say that. I don't think it's even close really. There are quite a few I'd put ahead of Fetisov actually.
1) Orr
2) Harvey
3) Shore
4) Park
5) Bourque
6) Potvin
7) Robinson
8) Kelly
9) Chelios
10) Lidstrom
For me 4, 5 and 6 are interchangeable. They are equals.
If we include non NHLer's Fetisov ends up at 8 and bumps Lidstrom from top ten.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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BigShow
Rookie
177 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 07:17:06
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My top ten:
1. Orr
2. Coffee
3. Bourque
4. Harvey
5. Robinson
6. Potvin
7. Chelios
8. Lidstrom
9. Niedermeyer
10. Konstantinov
I know Konstantinov had a very short NHL career, but the games he did play he was such a dominant monster. |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 08:28:08
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Those who say Fetisov was better than Orr look at peak value not entire careers (but I doubt it matters in your opinion).
(Time differance Pickuphockey-Sweden approx +9 hours 1min 5sek......so I can always blame it on Jetlag.) |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 08:33:48
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quote:
Originally posted by I´m also Cånädiön
Those who say Fetisov was better than Orr look at peak value not entire careers (but I doubt it matters in your opinion).
(Time differance Pickuphockey-Sweden approx +9 hours 1min 5sek......so I can always blame it on Jetlag.)
You're right, it still wouldn't matter. In fact peak value would work against Fetisov.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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Guest8372
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Posted - 06/08/2007 : 12:27:19
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
1) Orr
2) Harvey
3) Shore
4) Park
5) Bourque
6) Potvin
7) Robinson
8) Kelly
9) Chelios
10) Lidstrom
Hmm you have Lidstrom behind Chelios but Chelios wasn't on your top 20 players since 1970.
What gives?
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-oil-country-
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
988 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 15:22:31
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Alright I guess Murphy isn't as good as I thought, switch him and Robinson. Thanks.
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 16:09:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8372
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
1) Orr
2) Harvey
3) Shore
4) Park
5) Bourque
6) Potvin
7) Robinson
8) Kelly
9) Chelios
10) Lidstrom
Hmm you have Lidstrom behind Chelios but Chelios wasn't on your top 20 players since 1970.
What gives?
You are correct. As I said in that top 20 post though I did it in a hurry and it may not have been exactly how I would rank them given more time to wiegh everything out. I do put Chelios ahead of Lidstrom though so I will go and edit my other post now.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 17:15:26
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
...I do put Chelios ahead of Lidstrom though so I will go and edit my other post now.
Willy...curious...why Chelios ahead of Lidstrom? They have similar numbers points-wise (although Lidstom has done it in far fewer games -400 less) they are both excellent +/- players but Lidstrom has him beat there too. And both have strong stay-at-home mentalities. I can see why you put them close on your list...but Cheilios has about 9 times as many penalties; wouldn't that make him a bigger liability to his team? Also Lidstrom has more personal and team acolades than Chelios, shouldn't that give him a boost?
Not trying to be agumentative, just wondering about your thoughts behind your decision. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 20:06:00
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
...I do put Chelios ahead of Lidstrom though so I will go and edit my other post now.
Willy...curious...why Chelios ahead of Lidstrom? They have similar numbers points-wise (although Lidstom has done it in far fewer games -400 less) they are both excellent +/- players but Lidstrom has him beat there too. And both have strong stay-at-home mentalities. I can see why you put them close on your list...but Cheilios has about 9 times as many penalties; wouldn't that make him a bigger liability to his team? Also Lidstrom has more personal and team acolades than Chelios, shouldn't that give him a boost?
Not trying to be agumentative, just wondering about your thoughts behind your decision.
Not at all Leigh. It's a good question. It's not an easy task choosing the order for some of these guys. A lot of times it comes down to the intangibles each player possesses.
As I always say, there is more to a hockey player than his stats.
I give it to Chelios because of his passion. Lidstrom is a machine.
I like the guys that play with a little fire. Looking at Lidstroms PIM's I'm surprised he never won the Lady Byng. (Now I had to go look. He was actually runner up 4 times) Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad thing to win that award.
Here's something I've noticed too. It's not a rule but often you will see when a player has his best years, whether it be offensively or defensively, they will also have their highest PIM's. I attribute this to the passion they are playing with when they are at their best.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 02:53:12
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Willus, Fetisov won two cups with the red wings when he was in my opinion way past his prime so I guess that makes him a NHL player...
Hope you didn´t get too pissed when I had the audacity(thanks Mr OIL) to suggest someone was better than Orr 
I admire Chelios workethics (his workout in the sauna etc) but I don´t think he´s that close to Lidström, swedish players aren´t exactly known for taking penalties even if the play with passion.
Ok you think Lidström is a machine even with his leader abilities but you got to admit that´s a pretty good machine
(Time differance Pickuphockey-Sweden approx +9 hours 1min 5sek......so I can always blame it on Jetlag.) |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 11:35:00
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quote:
Originally posted by I´m also Cånädiön
Willus, Fetisov won two cups with the red wings when he was in my opinion way past his prime so I guess that makes him a NHL player...
Hope you didn´t get too pissed when I had the audacity(thanks Mr OIL) to suggest someone was better than Orr
I admire Chelios workethics (his workout in the sauna etc) but I don´t think he´s that close to Lidström, swedish players aren´t exactly known for taking penalties even if the play with passion.
Ok you think Lidström is a machine even with his leader abilities but you got to admit that´s a pretty good machine
(Time differance Pickuphockey-Sweden approx +9 hours 1min 5sek......so I can always blame it on Jetlag.)
It's true Fetisov played in the NHL. But he was already 31 when he played his first game in the league and based on the years he was in the NHL he doesn't make the top ten.
Didn't get pissed at all. People have their opinions.
Chelios in his prime was Lidstrom's equal at positional defense, reading a play , skating and stickhandling. Chelios was a better physical player and was far and away better at being the guy other teams hated to play against.
Being a machine isn't a bad thing, I just prefer guys with passion. I liken Lidstrom to Roger Federer in tennis. He's a machine. It's pretty much a given, when he's playing he is going to win. It's completely boring to watch though. It's devoid of any emotion.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
Edited by - willus3 on 06/11/2007 09:35:13 |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 13:59:58
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Willus - interested to see your 11 to 15 list, in particular how you rank Serge Savard, Borje Salming and Al MacInnis.
Okay, I'll admit it - the above is just an excuse to respond to your tennis comment. I can see how one might say that Federer against most players is not so interesting BUT not because Roger is a machine, just because most can't figure out ways to challenge him. BUT, and this BUT is a BIGGIE, Federer against Nadal may very well be the most fascinating match-up in the history of tennis. Never before have we had a situation where the Number One guy, so dominant against everyone else, has SO much trouble with the Number 2 guy. Of course, clay has a lot do with that, but even so, it's an amazing situation we have in tennis now, so let's cherish it! This ain't gonna happen a lot. Federer is absolutely incredible skill-wise and actually very underrated passion and heart wise (a lot is kept in). He is far from a machine and in fact, what makes the Nadal match-up so interesting, aside from the many tennis-related factors (watch for the high topspin to Fed's backhand again tomorrow) is being able to watch the psychological warfare going on inside Roger's head. Even after his win on clay against Nadal a few weeks ago, I wonder whether the guy who has won ten of the last fifteen grand slam tournaments truly believes he can beat this guy (on the other hand, I give Federer LOADS of credit - unlike Sampras and many Number Ones before him, he is at least making it to the finals of the French - a huge accomplishment in itself).
Anyway, make no mistake, Federer, machine or no machine, is the underdog in this match. And that in itself is Fascinating with a capital F! This is it folks. Tomorrow - perhaps the greatest all-round tennis player in the history of tennis against perhaps the greatest clay court player in the history of tennis in perhaps the most important tennis match in the history of tennis. Enjoy!
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SlowShot
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
264 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 19:18:08
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From what i hear from everyone i would say paul coffee shoudn't even be a top 10 because everyone always said that he was a offencive machine who didn't play good defense. Also because he was on the oilers dynasty,
I love Charles Wang |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 10:32:20
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quote:
Originally posted by andyhack
Willus - interested to see your 11 to 15 list, in particular how you rank Serge Savard, Borje Salming and Al MacInnis.
With Fetisov at #8 it would go something like this:
11. Lidstrom
12. Scott Niedermeyer
13. Rod Langway
14. Pierre Pilote
15. Guy Lapointe
16. Serge Savard
17. Mark Howe
18. Borje Salming
19. Brian Leetch
20. Paul Coffey
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
Edited by - willus3 on 06/11/2007 10:57:22 |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 21:59:24
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personally lidstrom is a nod better i'd say then scott ,, paul coffey has no place at all on this list,, a d man has to be able to do his primar job in order to be on a top ten of all time list this is forsure,,,,, don't get me wrong paul was amazing but for me an elite d man is someone who excelles at his defensive duties and can 1/4 back a power play....... all time best d man i'd have to go with larry robinson its a bias choice me daddy loves him and made me watch tapes and old games and always talked about the way he played the game and dion actually plays almost exactly like larry did its almost a exact replica
Pasty |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2007 : 09:59:39
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Scott Niedermeyer now has another Stanley Cup (4 in total) and a Conn Smythe. Here's a list of his accomplishments: World Junior Champion, Memorial Cup Champion, World Champion, Olympic Champion, Stanley Cup Champion (x4), World Cup Champion, Conn Smythe Winner, Norris Trophy winner.
He probably has about 5 more years of elite level hockey in him. Where does he rank for all time defensemen now? Does he crack the top ten?
Wow... Top 10 eh? Hmm... As much as I like Scotty, I just dont think I could do that. Too many others to choose from. Hmm... after close review, nope, not top 10. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2007 : 12:41:11
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He's getting close though, don't you think? He made it to my top ten (was #9) but I didn't include pre-1970 guys other than Harvey. Lets say 4 or 5 of those oldtimer guys (Shore, Kelly, Pilote, Horton, Howell - whoever) get in there ahead of Scotty. He still may very well crack the top fifteen. And that's now. In three or four years, I think for sure the top fifteen, and likely the top ten.
p.s. The tennis was a bit of a disappointment in the end. But I think I get your point Willus. Guys like Chelios (and Nadal) EXPRESS a lot of their passion when they play. Particularly in a team sport, one may want to place some value on that in a "who was greater, A or B" discussion, as that passion can often fire up teammates - even as much as a nice set-up by Gretzky |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2007 : 20:52:45
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quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Scott Niedermeyer now has another Stanley Cup (4 in total) and a Conn Smythe. Here's a list of his accomplishments: World Junior Champion, Memorial Cup Champion, World Champion, Olympic Champion, Stanley Cup Champion (x4), World Cup Champion, Conn Smythe Winner, Norris Trophy winner.
He probably has about 5 more years of elite level hockey in him. Where does he rank for all time defensemen now? Does he crack the top ten?
Wow... Top 10 eh? Hmm... As much as I like Scotty, I just dont think I could do that. Too many others to choose from. Hmm... after close review, nope, not top 10.
Care to post your list? I'm curious. How about top 20?
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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stastnysforever
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
301 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2007 : 06:44:49
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YA I'd like to see that, I wouldn't put mine up there because I know absolutely nothing about defense, Just like on my hockey team this year, noone knew anything about defense
PS: Im a goalie
what do Calgary and a tea bag have in common- they're both only good for one cup |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2007 : 08:38:25
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I wouldnt put Niedermeyer in my top 10 for many reasons. 1) I think that there are far better dmen that have played the game. 2) Some non superstars have one a few cups so I dont think that is a rating system. and 3) I think right now he is #2 in the league to Lidstrom and I dont think 2 of the top 10 are in the league right now.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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Niedermeyer's Stock 
