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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1393 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2007 :  09:48:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just a quick question, did Wayne Gretzky sacrifice his body to make a play ? ie.blocking shots and taking a hit to get the puck out the zone.

And did he do this regularly?

No Sacrifice , No Victory!

Edited by - PainTrain on 09/09/2007 17:46:14
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2007 :  19:55:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain

Just a quick question, did Wayne Gretzky sacrifice his body to make a play ? ie.blocking shots and taking a hit to get the puck out the zone.

And did he do this regularly?

No Sacrifice , No Victory!

I think Gretz was intelligent enough at the time to realize that there was more than enough talent on his side, that he could afford to expend his energies elsewhere.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs.
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Guest4457
( )

Posted - 09/10/2007 :  12:24:28  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willus3

Haaaahaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
Fantastic. Another opportunity to stir things up. Thanks Paintrain.
Interesting that people think this is so cut and dried.
I would honestly take Crosby in that situation. Like it or not Crosby has more game than Gretzky, Gretzky just had a greater ability in one particular facet of the game. Crosby can do what Gretzky could do, maybe not quite to the same level offensively, but it's closer than most people think. Compare their first two seasons by stats and after adjustment for era they are surprisingly close. Now, on top of that, Crosby also plays a physical game. Gretzky did not.
Crosby in the 80's would have been very interesting indeed.

"You are not your desktop wallpaper"



Crosby more game than Gretzky? You my friend are a retard
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2007 :  15:08:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4457

quote:
Originally posted by willus3

Haaaahaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
Fantastic. Another opportunity to stir things up. Thanks Paintrain.
Interesting that people think this is so cut and dried.
I would honestly take Crosby in that situation. Like it or not Crosby has more game than Gretzky, Gretzky just had a greater ability in one particular facet of the game. Crosby can do what Gretzky could do, maybe not quite to the same level offensively, but it's closer than most people think. Compare their first two seasons by stats and after adjustment for era they are surprisingly close. Now, on top of that, Crosby also plays a physical game. Gretzky did not.
Crosby in the 80's would have been very interesting indeed.

"You are not your desktop wallpaper"



Crosby more game than Gretzky? You my friend are a retard



Boy, if I had a dollar for every time I heard that...

"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1393 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2007 :  15:12:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain

Just a quick question, did Wayne Gretzky sacrifice his body to make a play ? ie.blocking shots and taking a hit to get the puck out the zone.

And did he do this regularly?

No Sacrifice , No Victory!



I would really like to hear what Beans and Willus think of that question.

No Sacrifice , No Victory!
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2007 :  15:25:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain

quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain

Just a quick question, did Wayne Gretzky sacrifice his body to make a play ? ie.blocking shots and taking a hit to get the puck out the zone.

And did he do this regularly?

No Sacrifice , No Victory!



I would really like to hear what Beans and Willus think of that question.

No Sacrifice , No Victory!



Well I was going to let others reply because I knew if I did that people would just say I was Gretzky bashing again. So from that statement you can probably figure what my answer would be.
Aww why not, here goes. My answer to your questions are No and No. Beans answer will be much longer as he will have to justify why the answers are "no".

"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1628 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2007 :  15:45:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain

quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain

Just a quick question, did Wayne Gretzky sacrifice his body to make a play ? ie.blocking shots and taking a hit to get the puck out the zone.

And did he do this regularly?

No Sacrifice , No Victory!



I would really like to hear what Beans and Willus think of that question.

No Sacrifice , No Victory!


This should really be another topic.
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1530 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2007 :  16:35:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LOL I just read this whole topic and was wondering to myself....Where the f*** is IHC??

Open your eyes
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1393 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2007 :  19:47:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by leigh

quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain

quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain

Just a quick question, did Wayne Gretzky sacrifice his body to make a play ? ie.blocking shots and taking a hit to get the puck out the zone.

And did he do this regularly?

No Sacrifice , No Victory!



I would really like to hear what Beans and Willus think of that question.

No Sacrifice , No Victory!


This should really be another topic.



Leigh I just wanted to keep the debate going. And in that thread Admin said for the rules he said ask questions to keep it going.

No Sacrifice , No Victory!
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Guest9956
( )

Posted - 09/12/2007 :  12:56:05  Reply with Quote
Did Gretzky ever sacrifice his body to make a play? Yes. Just look at Canada Cup 1987 for a prime example. Almost ended his career.

Did he do it often? No. He was too smart to put his body in that position very often. You want his genius around for 80 games and the playoffs.
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Guest9956
( )

Posted - 09/12/2007 :  12:57:47  Reply with Quote
I meant to say Canada Cup 1991 (the Gary Suter hit).
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 09/12/2007 :  14:19:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9956

I meant to say Canada Cup 1991 (the Gary Suter hit).


Sacrificing your body for a play means you know you are going to get hit but make the play anyway.
Gretzky did not do that in the Suter hit. He didn't know he was going to get hit. He dodged the first hit and didn't see Suter come in after.

"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1628 Posts

Posted - 09/12/2007 :  15:28:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain

quote:
Originally posted by leigh

quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain

quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain

Just a quick question, did Wayne Gretzky sacrifice his body to make a play ? ie.blocking shots and taking a hit to get the puck out the zone.
And did he do this regularly?


I would really like to hear what Beans and Willus think of that question.


This should really be another topic.


Leigh I just wanted to keep the debate going. And in that thread Admin said for the rules he said ask questions to keep it going.


No worries Paintrain. It was enough of a topic change and good enough that I thought it merrited its own topic. I wasn't trying to grind ya. Good stuff!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2007 :  04:48:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I will make my triumphant, post wedding return with this post. And for a change, I will agree with Willus. Gretzky did not do a lot of sacrificing his body for a play. Two Reasons, he didn't have to and he would be a moron if he did.

You didn't see Lemieux blocking many shots did you?? It wasn't his job. He did what he was coached to do. Sather would have had a bird if he watched Gretzky sliding across the ice to block a shot.

It's that simple.

If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2007 :  10:51:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I will make my triumphant, post wedding return with this post. And for a change, I will agree with Willus. Gretzky did not do a lot of sacrificing his body for a play. Two Reasons, he didn't have to and he would be a moron if he did.

You didn't see Lemieux blocking many shots did you?? It wasn't his job. He did what he was coached to do. Sather would have had a bird if he watched Gretzky sliding across the ice to block a shot.

It's that simple.

If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997.



Congrats on your wedding Beans.

Question. Does Crosby have to sacrifice his body?

"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
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Guest8372
( )

Posted - 09/14/2007 :  12:57:34  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willus3

Question. Does Crosby have to sacrifice his body?


Nope. I remember Cherry yelling at some young gun superstar (Ovie or Kovalchuk or Crosby) on CBC for trying to block a shot. Of course he did it very awkwardly too. Ripped him to shreds because he said that it would hurt his team more if he got hurt by blocking that shot, rather than letting the shot go through.

Can you imagine sending out Joe Thornton to fight? That's just silly. Would you use your Bugatti Veyron to go off roading? That's why you don't see Gretz pounding people and blocking shots. That's why you shouldn't see Crosby block shots either. You let the Messiers and the Trottiers to do that.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2007 :  14:24:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8372

quote:
Originally posted by willus3

Question. Does Crosby have to sacrifice his body?


Nope. I remember Cherry yelling at some young gun superstar (Ovie or Kovalchuk or Crosby) on CBC for trying to block a shot. Of course he did it very awkwardly too. Ripped him to shreds because he said that it would hurt his team more if he got hurt by blocking that shot, rather than letting the shot go through.

Can you imagine sending out Joe Thornton to fight? That's just silly. Would you use your Bugatti Veyron to go off roading? That's why you don't see Gretz pounding people and blocking shots. That's why you shouldn't see Crosby block shots either. You let the Messiers and the Trottiers to do that.


Cherry didn't have a problem with the superstar Orr doing the things he did so Cherry is a bit of a hypocrite.
I have no problem with superstars getting their hands dirty. Why shouldn't they. All the old timers used to look after themselves. And that's as it should be. It can do amazing things for the rest of the team when they see their superstar blocking shots and taking hits or even fighting. Leading by example. If he's doing it, why aren't I?

BTW I wouldn't buy the Bugatti, I'd buy the more all around useful Porsche 911GT2. And no I wouldn't off road with it. I'd use the spare change that I didn't waste on the Bugatti and buy a Hummer.

"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2007 :  16:46:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Willus comparing old time hockey to today is like comparing the Buggatti to a Civic. There is no comparison. A kid like Crosby was never coached to block shots or drive head first into his corner for the puck. In today's NHL, it is stupid for an elite offensive player to play that style of hockey. Crosby does not have to, and if he chooses to, his coach should be cracking him up side the head. He get paid to put points on the board.

If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2007 :  18:23:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Willus comparing old time hockey to today is like comparing the Buggatti to a Civic. There is no comparison. A kid like Crosby was never coached to block shots or drive head first into his corner for the puck. In today's NHL, it is stupid for an elite offensive player to play that style of hockey. Crosby does not have to, and if he chooses to, his coach should be cracking him up side the head. He get paid to put points on the board.

If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997.


Crosby is sacrificing his body all the time. Takes hits all the time. Constantly taking risks.
Probably why I like him so much.
He gets paid to play hockey. He gets paid to win.

"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
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Guest1986
( )

Posted - 09/15/2007 :  00:05:56  Reply with Quote
Gretzky didn't often take a hit to make a play because he didn't have to. He made the plays in any case. Let's not chastise Gretzky for outsmarting other players. If he were stupid enough to put himself in a postition to get hit in order to make a play, his name wouldn't be Wayne Gretzky.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 09/15/2007 :  02:43:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Staying in the play and getting hit is definately something that Crosby does. So did all of the great offensive players. What I am talking about it sliding across the ice to block a shot. Crosby does that?? No, he doesn't.

And if you like that style of hockey, I am shocked that you don't talk more about Thorton, Heatley, Lecavalier or Iginla. All play a more aggressive style than Crosby and are very gifted offensively. Difference is, in my opinion, Crosby spend more time with his butt on the ice than these other players. He still, last year anyway, tried to draw that penalty rather than fight through like the other players I mentioned. Don't get me wrong, I know that Crosby gets worked over by ever team he plays, but so do these other guys. He will learn that, but until then, he will have that stigma as a diver rather than an aggressive hard nosed player.

If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997.
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
834 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2007 :  22:51:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wayne Gretzky is my childhood idol. I spent many a night thinking about a special pass he made, a goal he scored, or an after-game quote that I could memorize and make my own. I had Gretzky posters, lunch kits, hockey cards, puzzles...you name it.

And I'd take Crosby. On the 1984 Oilers, I think he'd get 250 points. He brings it every single shift, with more speed than Gretz, better moves than Gretz, and maybe even more determination than Gretz. I give Gretz the slight edge in hockey sense and shot (not that Gretz had a super-hard or accurate shot, but moreso than Sid at this point). To those who question Sid's leadership...read Bruce Hood's book. He said Gretzky was the whiniest player that ever lived, and he was an NHL ref!

Look at my avitar. I'm no Gretzky basher. I just think that If you took 1979 Gretzky and put him up against Sid now, Sid wins. The things stopping Sid from breaking Gretzky's records are weaker teammates and better defensive systems and goalies. You can't dismiss these facts about the way the game has changed - they are relevant.

Bernie Nichols scored 70 goals and 80 assists one year. That's 150 points. Jarome Iginla has never cracked 100 points. That speaks volumes about the way the game is played now vs then.

Note - Gretzky didn't get hit often because he was smart and elusive, not because he was a chicken.
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Guest2554
( )

Posted - 10/19/2007 :  07:07:27  Reply with Quote
Post-Lock Out NHL Is Crosby's NHL. A hook free league where he can weave in and out of players.

Gretzky took the scoring title with eaze while fighting through a much scarier tougher League.

Crosby would have to do some adapting back in the 80's.

I'd go with gretzky

But don't get me wrong. I have a Man-Crush on Crosby.
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1053 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2007 :  13:19:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've seen gretzky play a lot and i have to say that he was by far the best player who ever played. The only reason why some people might pick Crosby is because he looks a bit more athletic than Gretzky did when he first entered the league

GO PREDATORS GO
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Guest0942
( )

Posted - 10/19/2007 :  17:28:50  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy



Bernie Nichols scored 70 goals and 80 assists one year. That's 150 points. Jarome Iginla has never cracked 100 points. That speaks volumes about the way the game is played now vs then.


Yes, but who was Nichols playing with when he got that 70 goals and 150 points? How many points did he get the very next year without playing with Gretzky? Secondly, how many points would Iginla get playing with a 27 year old Gretzky in today's NHL? More than a 100 points!
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1053 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2007 :  18:12:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Secondly, how many points would Iginla get playing with a 27 year old Gretzky in today's NHL? More than a 100 points!



Hate to break it to you but iginla is already getting aroung 100 p-oints a season

GO PREDATORS GO

Edited by - nashvillepreds on 10/19/2007 18:13:03
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
834 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2007 :  18:19:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I totally agree that if Iggy was playing on a line with a 27 year old Gretzky he would probably get 150 points too. Maybe that was a bad example. Better yet, Pat Lafontaine, a very good NHLer, scored 148 points in 1991. I'm guessing he would be hard-pressed to get 100 in the NHL today. Crosby right now is a much faster, smarter, skilled version of 1991 Pat Lafontaine.

That's probably a better comparison.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2007 :  19:54:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fly, I agree that Crosby today is a better version than 91 Lafontaine, but I don't think he's as good as 91 Gretzky.

78 games, 41 goals, 122 assist, 163 points, +30. 15 Points in 12 playoff games. THe Kings that year were basically Gretzky, Robataille, and Sandstrom with an aging Larry Robinson and a (in my mind) weak goalie in Hrudy. That team went 46-24-10 and played 12 playoff games.

Until Crosby can do what Gretzky did with LA he's just not in the same class. I compare the Kings in the early 90's to today's Pens. A superstar, a couple of above average players, and the rest riding coat tails. The difference is Gretzky nearly won the Cup with a similar type of team.

I think Crosby will get there, but it hasn't happened yet. I will agree that Crosby belongs in Gretzky's class one day, but it's not today.

If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997.
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Guest0942
( )

Posted - 10/19/2007 :  20:02:50  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nashvillepreds

quote:
Secondly, how many points would Iginla get playing with a 27 year old Gretzky in today's NHL? More than a 100 points!



Hate to break it to you but iginla is already getting aroung 100 p-oints a season

GO PREDATORS GO


Yes, but this only strengthens my point.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2007 :  20:29:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15


I will agree that Crosby belongs in Gretzky's class one day, but it's not today.




That's the thing that's tricky about this hypothetical. We are being asked to go back in time and, in a way, essentially try to forget what Gretzky did. If we remember it, and analyze this question based on the standard that Gretzky leapt to in the years following his first two years (where there really was a significant increase, especially after his third year), well, it's just kind of hard to say based on only two years worth of Sid, that he could have reached that Gretzdiculous level of offensive production in the 80s. I certainly can understand Flyguy's optimism for Sid's future, and very much agree with the "you have to adjust today's numbers to the 80s" reasoning, but still, I'm not sure I can bring myself to be optimistic enough that he would be a shoe-in to get 200 points plus on the 80s Oilers, let alone 250 (I assume you meant Gretzky-less Oilers too, right Flyguy?). At this point, I can see 150 to 180 points on those '80 Oilers teams though, which is very very good of course, and given some of the other things Crosby brings to the table, I certainly wouldn't think it ludicrous to consider taking Crosby even with just what we know now. But for me, unless I somehow eliminate what I KNOW Gretzky did in fact do from my mind and pretend I am comparing them as of 1979 as two young guys with limited experience, it's hard to choose Sid over Wayne at this point.
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
834 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2007 :  21:27:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, I meant a Gretzky-less Oilers team, andyhack.

Let's put Kurri in Ryan Malone's position, and Tikkanen in Recchi's. Switch out Gonchar (blech) for Coffey, and Ryan Whitney for Kevin Lowe.

That's just a regular line, based on who Crosby played with tonight against the 'Canes. Let's not even get into the power play where you could switch out Lowe for Anderson and Tikkanen for Messier.

Crosby had two points tonight. With the Oiler line-up, he could have, and probably would have had two more at least. He broke to the net on several ocassions with no support because Malone is slow and Recchi (God love him) is done like dinner.

Crosby had an average game on an avergae line and got two points. What would he be doing in an offensive time, on an elite offensive line, with the highest scoring team in history?

I know this is pure conjecture, but it's fun to think of - I bet he gets well over 200 points on that team.

With these Pens, he is on such a high level of play, that his linemates can't keep up. I think Kurri, Mess and Anderson would have provided better support for him like they did with Gretz. Crosby makes his current team better (which is why they win a few games here and there), but they are more like the 1984 Penguins than the 1984 Oilers. Gretzky started off on a mediocre team, too, though. We'll see where they are in a couple of years and re-evaluate.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  07:49:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fair enough, Flyguy. Fair enough. I guess you are making the assumption though that when Sid gets a better team and gets closer to the prize, he has what it takes to lead the team to glory a la Gretzky, Messier, Trottier and not fold like one of your many cheap three dollar suits a la Joe Thornton (lets face it, Big Joe has been a bit of a disappointment overall playoff-wise) and, to borrow a superstar from another sport, Alex Rodriguez.

I think this is very probably a good assumption on your part, but if I am a general manager in '79 and have some inside information from Gazoo (of Flintstones fame) that Gretzky is gonna get a bunch of 200 points seasons in the mid-80s and come through very very nicely in playoff times, but no inside info from Gazoo on Sid's future, and therefore have to weigh a "based on my inside info from Gazoo definitely bring home the glory" Gretzky vs. a "based on my hockey knowledge and everything this guy is showing, very probably bring home the glory" Crosby, I'd go with Gretzky. And if Crosby ends up surpassing Gretzky and being a dominant playoff performer, well, I'd send Steve Downie and Jesse Boulerice over to Gazoo's home to "take him out".

Edited by - andyhack on 10/20/2007 07:55:27
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
834 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  09:58:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, Joe Thornton...I can't understand that guy in the big games.

In truth, through all of this debate, and GM on earth would be happy to take either one of these guys, at any time.

Interestingly enough, both have had very weird paths to the NHL. First Gretz, who played in the WHA, was never drafted by an NHL team. He was signed as a 17 year old by the Indiana Pacers, because the WHA had no real rules about age like the NHL did. Of course, Sid Crosby ended up with the Pens only because they were lucky enough to have their ping-pong ball picked last. He could just as easily have been with Anaheim (it was that close - they already won the Cup last year - how good would they have been with Sid?).
I was personally hoping the Habs would have gotten Crosby. I'm not really even a Habs fan, I just think the NHL needs someone on that team to carry the torch, so to speak.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  13:39:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm with Fly here. I don't see any reason at all why Crosby wouldn't hit 200 point seasons given the same era and team Gretzky had.

Beans you have mentioned a few times now that until Crosby can lead or carry a team like Gretzky did you won't put him in the same category. I believe you said the 91 season for an example. Gretzky had 12 seasons of experience by then. Gretzky also did not win a cup his first two years with Edmonton. It took 4 or 5 years.
I understand where you're coming from though. People are saying he's as good as Gretzky after two years and you're saying not yet because we haven't seen enough. Agreed.
However comparing their first two seasons I don't think it unreasonable at all to say Crosby is as good through to the same point in their respective careers.

"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
834 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  14:33:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's funny how we always want to compare players. I'm guilty of it as much as anyone.

One of my recent favourites was the Crosby/Ovechkin comparison during their rookie season (when, as we know, Ovechkin won the Calder and lit the league on fire). Of course, I'm pro-Crosby, but my point was never that Ovechkin isn't an incredible talent, I always argued that people were comparing a then 20-year-old to an 18-year-old. I always said that they should be compared after they have both had a few years in the league, and then it would be a better comparison. I don't think there are many people out there still saying Ovechkin is a better prospect than Crosby.

I guess the same holds true for the Crosby/Gretzky comparisons. Good points, willus.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  14:52:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Willus, that is a good point. It's very much the same as my comparison in another post between Ovechkin and Bure after two years.

Gretzky vs. Crosby after their first two years on paper are disgustingly close when you take into account the early 80's firewagon hockey against todays NHL.

That being said, I think that Gretzky is still my pick. Reason being, his way of thinking through the game. I still think Crosby has some things to improve on and learn and experience. He will do that, but I still think that Gretzky was further along. However, Gretzky was also older and more experienced by his 3rd NHL year. He had 4 pro seasons under his belt and he was already 21 or 22.

Crosby will more than likely get to where he should be uttered in the same breath as Gretzky, but that story will be told over the next 3-4 seasons specifically. We all know that Crosby has the talent, but does he have the ability to succeed??

That is the litmus test to me now.

If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997.
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
834 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2007 :  17:17:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

We all know that Crosby has the talent, but does he have the ability to succeed??





I believe he does. When you remove all the stuff beyond the control of the player - the era, the linemates, the team, the coach, the systems...even the points and the so-called whininess of either or both....what you are left with is the factor that I think stands above all else.

A love of the game beyond what is normal, creating a burning desire to succeed.

It's what separates the gods from the legends. I truly believe it is in this kid. I've seen a lot of hopefuls over the years (Daigle, Thornton, Lecavalier - each touted as the next great thing). Some were/are great players, but none have the same level of passion for excellence that Gretz and Sid (I believe) have.

Edited by - fly4apuckguy on 10/20/2007 17:18:42
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LeafsFan4Life
Top Prospect



Canada
65 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2007 :  11:37:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would have to say the great one would be my pick just because he was just that great, I believe its going to be a long long time before anyone touches his records, and I think there has never been a more modest, gentlemanly player off the ice as well. based upon that i would say the great one 100%. As for the kid Crosby, hes not my favorite player but you have to respect his passion for the game, and not being on the greatest team in the league he still produces. But i guess its like comparing apples and oranges, there is no real comparison between the two

Long Live Hockey
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Guest8801
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Posted - 04/01/2009 :  02:30:19  Reply with Quote
Well, the adjusted stats have already been listed, and Wayne's numbers, even adjusted for era, are staggering. Crosby would need to step up his game significantly just to try and keep pace, and he'd need to maintain that for the next 10 or 12 years. It just doesn't look like it's gonna happen.

Worse yet, I'm starting to wonder if Crosby even belongs in this discussion or not. With Ovechkin and Malkin both competing with(and even beating!) Crosby in points and scoring, I'm no longer even convinced that Sid the Kid is the best player in the league right now, let alone worthy of consideration against the Great One. Gretzky won scoring races by 50-60% margins (even a record 69% one year! That is simply unfathomable). He had 3 seasons with more assists than anyone else had points. Think about that - he would have won 3 scoring titles without even scoring! Crosby isn't even the leading scorer now, only 4 years into his career. Worse yet, Malkin is! That would have been like Francis beating Lemieux or Messier beating Gretzky.

Don't get me wrong - Crosby is very talented. And I am probably quite biased - I grew up in my early teens watching Gretzky and the Oilers win cups. I lived in Edmonton, saw their games on TV every night, saw several live, and was able to witness one of hockey's greatest teams in their height of glory. I haven't really had that same opportunity to watch Crosby to that same degree. But from what I've seen the last couple seasons, it doesn't look like he's necessarily even going to dominate the current NHL. And if he can't do that, he's not going to be remembered as being better than Gretzky.
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Guest8801
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Posted - 04/01/2009 :  02:50:01  Reply with Quote
Sorry to post 2x in a row, but I actually found some numbers showing Wayne's dominance during his prime.

81-82 Gretzky 212 pts. #2 Bossy 147 pts
82-83 Gretzky 196 pts, #2 Stastny 124 pts
83-84 Gretzky 205 pts, #2 Coffey 126 pts
84-85 Gretzky 208 pts, #2 Kurri 135 pts
85-86 Gretzky 215 pts, #2 Lemieux 141
86-87 Gretzky 183 pts, #2 Kurri 108 pts.

As you can see, none of those seasons are even close. My complaint about Crosby is that he isn't even dominating the league in scoring right now; no matter how you adjust these numbers for era or whatever, it doesn't change the fact that Gretzky buried his competition during his prime, and only 4 years into his career Crosby may not even be the best player in the league.

Crosby is a great talent, it's true. But 20 years from now Gretzky will still hold most or even all of his 60 records. Crosby will go down in history as being another Hull, LaFleur, Bossy, Jagir, or Bure - a great player, but no match for the Great One.
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