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dgg1412
Top Prospect



Canada
29 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2013 :  12:46:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So the mess that is the PK contract neg. is going no where. If you were the Habs would you keep him, Trade him or sit him. I would love to see the Habs say go home and sit till you come to your sences. Although it will not happen he is to valuble to let that happen. So give in and over pay in both dollers and tearm, or trade him out while you might get something. There is a market for Dmen right now that is inflated I say get rid of him and get what you can. He has shown that it is all about him and all about right now. That attitude is no good in a dressing room. Both Dallas and the Avalanch have similer problems trade PK to one of them and take back Benn or O'Rilley.

Guest9640
( )

Posted - 01/24/2013 :  13:30:14  Reply with Quote
I don't care where he ends up, just want him to sign somewhere fast so i can get some points off the guy!!
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Guest7162
( )

Posted - 01/24/2013 :  14:20:41  Reply with Quote
^I feel your pain. I picked him thinking he was going to be signed by the Habs first game. Big gamble I guess...
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2277 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2013 :  17:20:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Subban hasn`t proven enough to get the big pay day he wants not even close, remeber this guy Dion Phaneuf? i swear btw this is not a shot at leaf fans, but he was big strong scoring points and had a bit of an ego, Calgary gave him the big contract and now hes being payed too much for too long because he regressed, Subban now isn`t as good as Phaneuf was when he signed the big contract so why would the habs hand him the long term big money deal he wants? plus Subban is not a leader in the room he is more of a problem,,

Trade him,

To Detroit,
Subban
Eller
Weaber

To Montreal
B Smith
Helm
Frk
1rst round pick

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?
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Guest4674
( )

Posted - 01/24/2013 :  18:15:51  Reply with Quote
I don't think Montreal can afford to trade him. He is good on D and a crowd pleaser. Montreal needs both. But he is high maintenance and that is what Montreal is worried about. It's not all about his performance on the ice. Signing him brings big costs and thats not just in $$.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2013 :  20:05:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7

Subban hasn`t proven enough to get the big pay day he wants not even close, remeber this guy Dion Phaneuf? i swear btw this is not a shot at leaf fans, but he was big strong scoring points and had a bit of an ego, Calgary gave him the big contract and now hes being payed too much for too long because he regressed, Subban now isn`t as good as Phaneuf was when he signed the big contract so why would the habs hand him the long term big money deal he wants? plus Subban is not a leader in the room he is more of a problem,,

Trade him,

To Detroit,
Subban
Eller
Weaber

To Montreal
B Smith
Helm
Frk
1rst round pick

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?




Not sure i like that deal Pasty. Admittedly, i don't know a lot about Frk but the jury's still out on Smith and Helm is just a role player really. I'm surprised you included Eller in the deal though as you spoke very highly of this guy all last year! I've read a lot of good stuff about him and i think this proposal is one that Detroit would jump at, though again, i don't know Frk's value.

Here's a really good read in case you missed it. Take a minute to read it. Kinda explains where Bergevin is coming from. I don't know if it's entirely accurate but it implies that it's not so much the money, but the term that is holding a deal back. As far as i've heard, the actual dollar amounts from both sides have not even been revealed so it's hard to pick a side really?

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2013/1/21/3900984/the-holdout-in-defense-of-habs-marc-bergevin

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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2277 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2013 :  08:32:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
yeah looking back at that trade Alex the habs would be giving up a little too much, Take Eller out of the deal (you are right i think he is going to be a terrific player) and throw in a role player or Loius Leblanc, I do think Smith is the key the habs get back in this deal he has as much upside as Subban

LAst I herd Subban wants the 8 years or at least 6 , and 5.5 million,
Bergevin will not budge on the 2 years and will not sign for more 3 million (dreger and Mackenzie bot said they are off by 3 to 4 years and 2 to 3 million )

I just don`t see how Subban can be worht more than 4 million

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2013 :  09:10:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7

yeah looking back at that trade Alex the habs would be giving up a little too much, Take Eller out of the deal (you are right i think he is going to be a terrific player) and throw in a role player or Loius Leblanc, I do think Smith is the key the habs get back in this deal he has as much upside as Subban

LAst I herd Subban wants the 8 years or at least 6 , and 5.5 million,
Bergevin will not budge on the 2 years and will not sign for more 3 million (dreger and Mackenzie bot said they are off by 3 to 4 years and 2 to 3 million )

I just don`t see how Subban can be worht more than 4 million
Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?




Pasty, i was under the understanding that numbers hadn't come out from either side but if these numbers you state are accurate, then yeah, they're no where near a deal! I think the problem here is that Subban (and his agent) are probably comparing him to Doughty and the deal he got. Doughty has not put up the numbers to match his sophmore year, but that big year (including his performance for Canada at the Olympics) def helped him land that huge deal. The Kings really didn't wanna pay him as much as he got but they caved. Will the Habs eventually give in? Who knows? But it seems as though Bergevin is trying to institute / maintain a precedence moving forward that guys will not be signed longterm after just 2 seasons, based on "potential".

However, looking around the league at what some dmen are making and taking into account Subban's TOI and performance in all situations last year makes me think that maybe he's worth more and possibly the Habs should make an exception here? I don't know, but here's another really good article which show's how he performed last year (in all situations) AND what some comparable dmen are making around the league.

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2013/1/21/3884474/p-k-subban-vs-his-peers-habs-montreal-canadiens

Hey, if Matt Carle and Dennis Wideman are making 5.5 and 5.25 respectively, it's hard to argue than Subban isn't worth more than those two moving forward! Sure, they've put in some years in the league, but still, if you could choose one of the 3, i'm pretty sure it's the one in Montreal!!!


Edited by - Alex116 on 01/25/2013 10:07:05
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3590 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2013 :  09:13:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7

yeah looking back at that trade Alex the habs would be giving up a little too much, Take Eller out of the deal (you are right i think he is going to be a terrific player) and throw in a role player or Loius Leblanc, I do think Smith is the key the habs get back in this deal he has as much upside as Subban

LAst I herd Subban wants the 8 years or at least 6 , and 5.5 million,
Bergevin will not budge on the 2 years and will not sign for more 3 million (dreger and Mackenzie bot said they are off by 3 to 4 years and 2 to 3 million )

I just don`t see how Subban can be worht more than 4 million

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?




It sounds like Subban is looking to get paid extra because he plays in MTL where the pressure is high, and because he is a "fan favourite". Booo.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2013 :  10:24:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
It sounds like Subban is looking to get paid extra because he plays in MTL where the pressure is high, and because he is a "fan favourite". Booo.



nuxfan.....curious, what makes you think that? IF Pasty's numbers are correct and Bergevin is only considering giving him 3 mil tops, don't you think he's worth more than that? I compare him to Edler in a way, but yes, Edler's put in a few more years and just finished his 2nd contract that was at 3.25 per year over 4 years. You can't tell me that Subban is not worth AT LEAST that much and prob a lot more? When looking back at Elder's first couple seasons, he did not do as much nor show as much potential/promise as what Subban has in his first two years. With inflation alone, Edler's last contract today is prob worth 3.5-3.75 today. Add to that what he's shown the Habs and i think he's easily worth over 4 million to the Habs. Now, if he's really looking for 5-6, maybe that's too much, but if the Habs have only offered a max of 3, that's absolutely insulting. If i were Bergevin, and i was adamant about sticking to 2 years, i'd be upping the $'s for sure, maybe even upwards of 5mil considering it is only 2 years. IF after those 2 years he hasn't proven himself, then obviously you go other routes or his next offer is lower.

If not for this 2 year rule that Bergevin has, if i were him, i'd be working on a 5 year deal in the 22.5-25 mil range.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3590 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2013 :  11:15:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
nuxfan.....curious, what makes you think that? IF Pasty's numbers are correct and Bergevin is only considering giving him 3 mil tops, don't you think he's worth more than that? I compare him to Edler in a way, but yes, Edler's put in a few more years and just finished his 2nd contract that was at 3.25 per year over 4 years. You can't tell me that Subban is not worth AT LEAST that much and prob a lot more? When looking back at Elder's first couple seasons, he did not do as much nor show as much potential/promise as what Subban has in his first two years. With inflation alone, Edler's last contract today is prob worth 3.5-3.75 today. Add to that what he's shown the Habs and i think he's easily worth over 4 million to the Habs. Now, if he's really looking for 5-6, maybe that's too much, but if the Habs have only offered a max of 3, that's absolutely insulting. If i were Bergevin, and i was adamant about sticking to 2 years, i'd be upping the $'s for sure, maybe even upwards of 5mil considering it is only 2 years. IF after those 2 years he hasn't proven himself, then obviously you go other routes or his next offer is lower.

If not for this 2 year rule that Bergevin has, if i were him, i'd be working on a 5 year deal in the 22.5-25 mil range.



http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2013/01/25/pk_subban_montreal_canadiens_contract_negotiations/

quote:
ďIím playing in one of the best markets in the NHL. To me, it seems like a pretty easy situation: you have a guy who wants to be there, for a long time, who actually thrives on playing in the pressure of Montreal. I donít think there could be any more pressure than what Iíve had playing here the last two years."



To me, this sounds like a thinly veiled assertion that playing in MTL is tougher than other markets, therefore he should be somehow be compensated extra for putting up with the pressure. I don't buy it, it screams ego, self centred thinking, and doesn't bode well for the team longer term. If MTL/TOR/VAN/NYR have to start paying players "market premiums", then they are going to have problems in the future.

Regarding comparables - I also see Edler as a reasonable comparable, although the Edler from 3 years ago, not today's Edler - today's Edler is above Subban in nearly every meaningful statistical category.

Perhaps a better local comparable would be Jason Garrison, in terms of age, experience, production, and basic stats. The new Edler deal (6yr/30m) should set an absolute cap on anything Subban can get IMO, and in reality Subban should probably fall lower than that. The Garrison deal (6yr/27m) is probably more of a market comparable.

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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
213 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2013 :  13:07:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
if they can find a team who's willing to pay the Subban asking price, and also get someone of equal caliber in return, who's still on the young side of their career. then by all means trade him.
would a straight up trade with Tampa Bay work for Victor Hedman?
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2013 :  14:26:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
ďIím playing in one of the best markets in the NHL. To me, it seems like a pretty easy situation: you have a guy who wants to be there, for a long time, who actually thrives on playing in the pressure of Montreal. I donít think there could be any more pressure than what Iíve had playing here the last two years."



To me, this sounds like a thinly veiled assertion that playing in MTL is tougher than other markets, therefore he should be somehow be compensated extra for putting up with the pressure. I don't buy it, it screams ego, self centred thinking, and doesn't bode well for the team longer term. If MTL/TOR/VAN/NYR have to start paying players "market premiums", then they are going to have problems in the future.

Regarding comparables - I also see Edler as a reasonable comparable, although the Edler from 3 years ago, not today's Edler - today's Edler is above Subban in nearly every meaningful statistical category.

Perhaps a better local comparable would be Jason Garrison, in terms of age, experience, production, and basic stats. The new Edler deal (6yr/30m) should set an absolute cap on anything Subban can get IMO, and in reality Subban should probably fall lower than that. The Garrison deal (6yr/27m) is probably more of a market comparable.





I don't totally agree with the "thinly veiled assertion that playing in MTL is tougher than other markets, therefore he should be somehow be compensated....." bit, but maybe it is part of his negotiation ploy? But, i'm sure it's not the difference between one or more million dollars per!!! Truth is, there are guys who wouldn't want to be in the pressure cooker that is the Habs and Montreal. He's right in stating that he's done well there, likes it there, etc. Is that not worth anything to the Habs??

As far as the comparisons, you have to note that i was in fact comparing PK to the Elder of a few years back and that's why i said he should be worth at least as much as Edler got in his 2nd contract and due to inflation, prob more! He had better numbers in his first two years than Edler did especially considering the teams they were/are playing for. Montreal has not been known as a high scoring bunch these past few years, very much the opposite to the Canucks!

The Garrison comparison is not really a good one. Garrison is 28 for starters, so age is not comparable, but i also think Garrison cashed in on one big season. PK Subban's #'s in his rookie season were better than what Garrison put up last year! So, if Garrison is worth 4.5, and supposedly left money on the table to play in Van, why isn't a younger PK Subban, who i think most would agree, has a better upside potential wise than Garrison??? Again, it's what the market dictates really. Lucky for the Habs, he's an RFA cuz you can be darn sure at UFA he'd be getting 5+mil / year offers tossed his way! I think you and i are of similar opinions in what he "should" get, but in reality, if the Habs wanna keep him, they may have to "buck up" to do so. 2 years at 3 mil just isn't gonna do it IMO.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3590 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2013 :  15:38:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
He's right in stating that he's done well there, likes it there, etc. Is that not worth anything to the Habs??



Sure its worth something. Question is, is it worth something more than the market should bear? I don't think so.

quote:

The Garrison comparison is not really a good one. Garrison is 28 for starters, so age is not comparable, but i also think Garrison cashed in on one big season. PK Subban's #'s in his rookie season were better than what Garrison put up last year! So, if Garrison is worth 4.5, and supposedly left money on the table to play in Van, why isn't a younger PK Subban, who i think most would agree, has a better upside potential wise than Garrison??? Again, it's what the market dictates really. Lucky for the Habs, he's an RFA cuz you can be darn sure at UFA he'd be getting 5+mil / year offers tossed his way! I think you and i are of similar opinions in what he "should" get, but in reality, if the Habs wanna keep him, they may have to "buck up" to do so. 2 years at 3 mil just isn't gonna do it IMO.



Besides actual age, and pedigree/hype, I see very little difference between them. Garrison is older, but he was also a late bloomer - both have been in the NHL for 3 seasons, and both have been successful in their previous 2 seasons (granted, Subban has put up more points). Both play similar minutes and similar situations. Both had success with otherwise marginal teams. And thats about it.

I agree there may be more upside for Subban, he's younger and should in theory get better over time. But potential upside is not a very good reason to overpay now on a long term deal.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2013 :  15:43:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

I agree there may be more upside for Subban, he's younger and should in theory get better over time. But potential upside is not a very good reason to overpay now on a long term deal.



My whole point is that if Pasty's comments are true, that Bergevin expects to sign him for 2 years at 3mil (max, maybe less), then he's freakin' crazy! If he's comparable to Garrison, which moving forward i think any franchise would pick Subban over Garrison, then he's worth AT LEAST the "discounted" 4.5 per that Garrison's being paid! The fact that Subban is RFA is the only thing holding him back from 5M or more per season. He needs to bide his time and earn his UFA status and therefore should accept less, but still in the 4-4.5 range is not at all too much and it should be at the higher end or more if it's just 2 years!

Edited by - Alex116 on 01/25/2013 15:44:33
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3590 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2013 :  16:48:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
MTL just announced that they signed him to a 2yr/5.75M deal. It looks like the team won this battle.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2013 :  17:00:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
WOW!!!! I thought for sure he'd get 3-3.5 for a couple years (take a discount from what he was after in return for a short term). Great job by Bergevin! Hopefully this kid comes back with a good attitude, plays well and earns his big bucks a couple years down the road. The potential is def there.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2277 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2013 :  06:13:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

I agree there may be more upside for Subban, he's younger and should in theory get better over time. But potential upside is not a very good reason to overpay now on a long term deal.



My whole point is that if Pasty's comments are true, that Bergevin expects to sign him for 2 years at 3mil (max, maybe less), then he's freakin' crazy! If he's comparable to Garrison, which moving forward i think any franchise would pick Subban over Garrison, then he's worth AT LEAST the "discounted" 4.5 per that Garrison's being paid! The fact that Subban is RFA is the only thing holding him back from 5M or more per season. He needs to bide his time and earn his UFA status and therefore should accept less, but still in the 4-4.5 range is not at all too much and it should be at the higher end or more if it's just 2 years!



Crazy like a fox Alex!

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?
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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
213 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2013 :  06:28:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Still an RFA when the contract expires to, so next summer they get to do this all over again! Pressure is definitely on P.K. to prove that he's worth more.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2277 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2013 :  06:50:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The_Gipper

Still an RFA when the contract expires to, so next summer they get to do this all over again! Pressure is definitely on P.K. to prove that he's worth more.



This is exactly what i wanted after 2 good season and the potential to be very good a player hasn't earned the kind of deal that sets him up for life, I mean lots of players have had all kinds of hype around them signed the big contract then not imporved, had the habs given Subban the big 5 million plus long term deal it would have been based on potential and Should Subban not improve or regress than the habs have another overpaid under achiever and between Gomez Kaberlee and Bourque the habs just can't have any more bad contracts on the books,, Now if Subban knows what he will have to do to earn that 5 plus million for 8 years he wants, earn it!

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?
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dgg1412
Top Prospect



Canada
29 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2013 :  07:23:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What a joke it took all this time and he signs for less that $3mill a year. The contract is paying him what he is worth. Now he has to go to his teammates and explain why he couldnt be there in the preseason or the early games after signing for what he was offered to begin with. The guy is a good player but he has an atitude problem. Good luck to the Habs dealing with him in 2 years.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2013 :  09:59:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dgg1412

What a joke it took all this time and he signs for less that $3mill a year. The contract is paying him what he is worth. Now he has to go to his teammates and explain why he couldnt be there in the preseason or the early games after signing for what he was offered to begin with. The guy is a good player but he has an atitude problem. Good luck to the Habs dealing with him in 2 years.



I'm sure the hope is that he will improve, earn his next (big) contract AND mature at the same time!
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