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admin
Forum Admin
Canada
2338 Posts |
 Posted - 09/26/2007 : 14:54:09
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 15:11:42
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This is absolutely discusting. Downie left his feet, stuck out his elbow and completely was going for the head. Mcammond was completely vulnerable and Downie took advantage. There is no place in the NHL for something this dispicable.
Forecheck+Backcheck=Paycheck |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 15:21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Leafs Rock Planet
This is absolutely discusting. Downie left his feet, stuck out his elbow and completely was going for the head. Mcammond was completely vulnerable and Downie took advantage. There is no place in the NHL for something this dispicable.
Forecheck+Backcheck=Paycheck
It looked to me like he left his feet after he made contact, not intentionally and it was his shoulder not his elbow.
Reminds me of a Scott Stevens hit.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 15:42:39
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After review of the play, he did lead with his shoulder, and not his elbow. Unfortunatley you can see him in the air before contact, in other words he left his feet.
If McAmmond got up and skated away, the aftermath would be minimal. Because he was injured Downie will receive 3-5 games.
If you take a look at a lot of hits in the NHL like that one , and slow it down you will see many, many players leave their feet (especially the smaller players). But when there is no injury the Refs seem to let it go.
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 17:06:02
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That was an insane hit!!!!!!!
He jumped a little bit but he put the shoulder out first.
But wow that was awesome!
I love it!
No Sacrifice , No Victory! |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 18:00:37
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Two problems with this hit. (1). He hit him in the head. There is no need to do that, even if your trying to make the big club. (2). He didn't need to do the hit at all. It was totally unnecessary, McAmmond had already surrendered the puck.
Downie is a cheap player and he is a grinder. Occasionally he will make mistakes because he is a rookie. But he had no excuse for the hit. Downie showed no respect for his oppponent and should be punished for that.
______________________
Open your eyes |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 18:52:40
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LeafsFan that rite there is HOCKEY!!!
Obviously I don't like to see injuries but McAmmond's head was down and he passed the puck and Downie hit him in about half a second. You are allowed to finish your check in the NHL if you didn't know. Yes, he did jump. Yes he did hit him in the head but where else are you suppose to hit them, knees?Arm? C'mon!
It's entertaining and the consequence is bad but hey that's hockey it's always risky to step out on the ice in the NHL. I hope McAmmond gets better but that's the risk of playing hockey with your head down.
No Sacrifice , No Victory! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 19:16:28
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I think that the hit was dirty for the reason I personally believe that Downie hit McAmmond with intent to injury. I know guys are fighting for jobs and stuff, but he could have hit him hard without hurting him.
However, I think that McAmmond's play is a symptom of the "new NHL." It is trying to become the free wheeling, run and gun game. BUT, the offensive player needs to be responsible. If they want to admire their pass as they are coming around the net, they will get rocked. McAmmond has a small resposibility in this as well.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 05:21:43
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quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
LeafsFan that rite there is HOCKEY!!!
Obviously I don't like to see injuries but McAmmond's head was down and he passed the puck and Downie hit him in about half a second. You are allowed to finish your check in the NHL if you didn't know. Yes, he did jump. Yes he did hit him in the head but where else are you suppose to hit them, knees?Arm? C'mon!
It's entertaining and the consequence is bad but hey that's hockey it's always risky to step out on the ice in the NHL. I hope McAmmond gets better but that's the risk of playing hockey with your head down.
No Sacrifice , No Victory!
Buddy did you even watch the clip. Mcammond did not have his head down at all. He was watching the play in front of the net. Now you may argue that he was admiring his pass but thats a bunch of crap. His pass must have already been to the player he passed it to before he got destroyed. Downie took a run at a vulnerable Dean Mcammond and I dont really see how you can argue with that. |
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spade632
Rookie
Canada
247 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 06:25:41
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As far as Downie hitting with intent to injury. A few seconds before McAmmond got rocked, Downie was cranked at the blueline by Schubert (I think). In any case, Downie got up and went looking for the first player in red that he could hit, it happened to be McAmmond.
Clearly, Downie was head hunting.
In the broader scope, head shots have no place in the NHL.
I think Downie will get 3-5. That said, I think if the NHL instituted a "you're out until the guy you hurt gets back" rule it would clean up the most egregious stuff pretty quick. (Od course, I don't think that would ever happen) |
Edited by - spade632 on 09/27/2007 06:26:14 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 08:38:16
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Leaf Plannet Rocks, you are right, his head was not down. But he was not watching what was coming at him. If he would have made the pass and then got his head up while he came around the net, he might have been able to avoid this hit.
As most of the NHL guys I have heard talk about this, it's every players responsibility to know where they are and who is on the ice at all times.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
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ultimatetitman
Rookie
Canada
244 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 15:25:37
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The problem is not that he finished his check, I have no issue with that. The major problem here is that Downie hunted him down. Watch the replay, and you can tell that he made up his mind that he was going to take out McAmmond about 3 seconds before he hit him. He then accelerated - or charged - into the check, throwing his entire body weight into McAmmond's head. There can be no other conclusion of Downie's intentions.
It was a calculated and deliberate attempt to injure. One day a hit like that is going to kill somebody. Will the punishment be appropriate then?
Sadly, no suspension will suffice, as there is now no way he is going to make the team, unless the AHL follows the NHL lead in its suspension. if that is the case, then a precedent must finally be set, and a minimum 20 game suspesion sems sufficient to me.
"I didn't know Sedin was Swedish for punch me"-Brian Burke, 2002 |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 19:05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Leafs Rock Planet
quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
LeafsFan that rite there is HOCKEY!!!
Obviously I don't like to see injuries but McAmmond's head was down and he passed the puck and Downie hit him in about half a second. You are allowed to finish your check in the NHL if you didn't know. Yes, he did jump. Yes he did hit him in the head but where else are you suppose to hit them, knees?Arm? C'mon!
It's entertaining and the consequence is bad but hey that's hockey it's always risky to step out on the ice in the NHL. I hope McAmmond gets better but that's the risk of playing hockey with your head down.
No Sacrifice , No Victory!
Buddy did you even watch the clip. Mcammond did not have his head down at all. He was watching the play in front of the net. Now you may argue that he was admiring his pass but thats a bunch of crap. His pass must have already been to the player he passed it to before he got destroyed. Downie took a run at a vulnerable Dean Mcammond and I dont really see how you can argue with that.
True after watching the clip again I realized he was admiring his pass. Still admiring your pass is something you shouldn't do in the NHL, he should have as Beans said was to look if someone was going for him.
No Sacrifice , No Victory! |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 20:19:42
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Willus - how is this for a political answer? Both the guys who say "This IS hockey" and the guys who say, "That was so dirty" are right (kind of).
From a philosophical perspective, hockey is, in my view, an inherently dirty game, and it's virtually impossible to peel away the basic things about the game from which this incident ultimately came about. Someone said that Downie had just been hit seconds before and was just trying to nail the first guy he saw. Some guys play that way, and that's okay, right. Good tough hockey, right. And sometimes the return hits are clean. But with the adrenalin going strong, the speed of the game and the need for instant decisions, sometimes it's gonna result in at least semi-dirty hits, even if you give the hitter the benefit of doubt on the intention to injure issue. Adrenalin, speed, instant decisions, not to mention body contact, hard to argue that those things ARE NOT hockey.
From an analytical perspective though, I think Downie clearly left his feet, and Willus, I think he did it slightly before the contact. Intentional or not, it's a pretty big stretch to call this just "finishing your check". And I agree with Ultimatetitman's comments about the acceleration and the targetting of McAmmond's head. I'd give Downie at least ten games because I think he probably did intend to injure (and "probably" is good enough for me). I'd give him a lot more if he does something similar again.
Last point, whether or not McAmmond was admiring his pass should not, in my opinion, have any bearing on the suspension question, certainly not on the question of whether to suspend anyway. It is an important point for player safety no doubt. And it would be important in a court of law if a victim of a dirty check sued for damages in a situation like this (the culprit would claim contributory negligence by the victim), but it's not a point that should influence whether to suspend, and shouldn't have much affect on how much to suspend, for a dirty check (in the same way that the fact that a victim was jaywalking shouldn't affect the question of a driver's criminal negligence in the event that he hits the victim while driving twice the legal speed limit, and shouldn't have much affect on the sentencing). |
Edited by - andyhack on 09/27/2007 20:42:28 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 23:47:15
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Andyhack, a sage view as always.
I agree with you on the point that McAmmond watching his pass should have no bearing on the suspension.
I just wanted to throw out something. What about the mutual respect that it seems the players no longer have for each other. I grew up watching the most wide open, free wheeling period in hockey history and I can think of a single hit like the one Downie delivered. Maybe my memory isn't as good as I think it is, but none come to mind outside the past 5 years.
There have always been big hitters and dirty hits, but there used to be a respect in the league where a guy got hit hard, and maybe missed a game or two. But definately not this klind of crap.
Andyhack, Willus. Help me out here. Am I right or was there these kind of hits in the past as well.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
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Guest8372
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Posted - 09/28/2007 : 07:58:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Andyhack, Willus. Help me out here. Am I right or was there these kind of hits in the past as well.
Not Hack or Willus but I'll chime in.
I can remember 3 incidents in the last 10 years not including the Bertuzzi-Moore-Naslund fiasco or the McSorley-Brashear silliness. Lindros-Stevens. Suter-Kariya. Lemieux-Draper.
There was Perezoghin stick swinging incident in the minors and the most famous stick fight (can't recall the names) but two players pretending the sticks were swords and wailing it at each other.
Finally not very widely broadcasted but Pierre Mondou from the Canadiens with his career ending injury when someone pushed/tripped him into the corner of the net. Mondou (eye?) injury prevented him from ever playing again (this was the old net design where the net does not give and were pretty much unmovable).
If you want to go back further see the Broadstreet bullies. Clarke-Kharmalov is probably the most famous international incident regarding lack of respect to a fellow player. |
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spade632
Rookie
Canada
247 Posts |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 14:16:52
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I take an old school apprach to suspensions. I think the NHL hands them out too frequently and too severly. So I actually don't think a heavy suspension was warranted. So I think 1 or 2 games would be fine.
Having said that I realize that times have changed. So if I were to think of this within the confines of the "new era", I think this is incredibly severe! Maybe 5 games if I adjust it for the heavier suspension trend....MAYBE! But 20 games? That is rediculously high! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 14:34:27
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20 games for a dirty hit that had total intent to injure is just fine with me. In fact, I think it may not be enough.
C'mon! You guys that are saying it's too much. Answer me this. The player who gets hit is Sindey Crosby rather than McAmmond and he breaks his neck and can never play again.
Then what???
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 14:39:37
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Here's a quote from Colin Campbell. I am not a big fan of his, but in this case, I completely agree with him.
"It is clear that, while Mr. Downie is not a repeat offender, all of the other factors identified as being particularly relevant in determining the appropriateness of discipline were involved in Downie's hit on Mr. McAmmond. The hit was deliberate, dangerous and has no place in our League," Mr. Campbell added.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 15:11:57
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OK so what about the hit by Moore on Naslund (that sparked Bertuzzi 's revenge) It was a very dangerous hit.In fact maybe one of the few times I believe a player was actually aiming for a head shot. Moore didn't even get a penalty. Listen, hits are inherently dangerous and most of the time when someone hits another player they have every intent to lay the guy out. That's pro hockey.
Downie left his feet = charging = penalty
Maybe the hit was a second too late = who cares, give him a game
Ok he was pissed off and was stalking him = who cares + 1 more game.
If the hit was on Crosby I wouldn't care (and I like Crosby)
I don't believe that he was targeting his head intentionally. I've been playing hockey for 30+ years and I've been absolutely furious at guys on the ice and have even gone after some of them...maybe even stalked them for a good hit...But I have never aimed for a guy's head when throwing a check. If you're played hockey you will know that hits are elusive....you try to hit the biggest target ie: the shoulders/chest. Hits to the head are mostly incidental (except if a guy is kneeling down reaching for a puck, the only place you can hit him is in the head - a la Moore)
The lesson here. PAY ATTENTION because hockey is a dangerous sport. Especially at the pro level (and when you get paid millions $ to entertain the masses)
And this whole lack of respect thing...some guys show more respect than others. It's always been that way. Good eggs and bad. The league should do itself a favour and legislate a gear change and institute soft shelled shoulder pads. Problem solved - at next to no cost to the game (financially or entertainment-wise)
On another note...welcome to the ranks of "moderator" Beans! Nice to have you on board! |
Edited by - leigh on 09/28/2007 15:15:40 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 15:46:09
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Leigh, I can't disagree with anything more than your points here. Firstly, the Moore hit was an elbow reaction AFTER Naslund tried to avoid the hit. Should it have been a suspension?? Not sure. I felt is was more of a missed hit that turned into an elbow than an intentional hit to the head. But it wasn't even close to this. Moore was looking for a solid hit, Downie was head hunting.
And I hear your lesson. I truly do. These guys do get paid a lot to play the game and there are risks. Baseball players also play knowing that there are bats involved. Does that mean a player could attack another player with a bat because it's part of the equipment of the game??Look at how many people Scott Stevens and Lindros in his prime took out. THAT'S part of hockey. Not what Downie did. He left his feet and led with his shoulder into McAmmond's head.
Just like Campbell said, he didn't expect that ALL criteria for a suspension-potential hit would occur in one hit.
I might even agree that the suspension is a little bit harsh, but it's the outcome that is important. Maybe this will send a message to players that they must look out for each other a little more than what they have in the past.
And if it is so unjust, why has every single NHL player to this point have all said that the play had no place in hockey and the one's that have talked about the suspension agree with the length??
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 17:15:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Andyhack, a sage view as always.
I agree with you on the point that McAmmond watching his pass should have no bearing on the suspension.
I just wanted to throw out something. What about the mutual respect that it seems the players no longer have for each other. I grew up watching the most wide open, free wheeling period in hockey history and I can think of a single hit like the one Downie delivered. Maybe my memory isn't as good as I think it is, but none come to mind outside the past 5 years.
There have always been big hitters and dirty hits, but there used to be a respect in the league where a guy got hit hard, and maybe missed a game or two. But definately not this klind of crap.
Andyhack, Willus. Help me out here. Am I right or was there these kind of hits in the past as well.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997.
I think there have always been dirty hitters as well. Remember Barber's knee on knee with Orr? Samuelson's knee on knee with Neely. Marchments countless dirty knee on knee and other hits. All dirty players. That's just a few. It would seem to me though that there is less respect between players now. I wouldn't argue against that.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 17:30:27
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
I don't believe that he was targeting his head intentionally. I've been playing hockey for 30+ years and I've been absolutely furious at guys on the ice and have even gone after some of them...maybe even stalked them for a good hit...But I have never aimed for a guy's head when throwing a check. If you're played hockey you will know that hits are elusive....you try to hit the biggest target ie: the shoulders/chest. Hits to the head are mostly incidental (except if a guy is kneeling down reaching for a puck, the only place you can hit him is in the head - a la Moore)
The lesson here. PAY ATTENTION because hockey is a dangerous sport. Especially at the pro level (and when you get paid millions $ to entertain the masses)
And this whole lack of respect thing...some guys show more respect than others. It's always been that way. Good eggs and bad. The league should do itself a favour and legislate a gear change and institute soft shelled shoulder pads. Problem solved - at next to no cost to the game (financially or entertainment-wise)
I agree with you completely on these two key points.
It's very hard to target a guys head.
And in my opinion the shoulder pad change is a must. If the league was concerned about it's players it would institute the change.
I also want to throw this out there. I believe a huge part of the problem with hitting these days is that the players and everyone else have lost sight of what the original intent of "hitting" was. First let me say that calling it hitting is a pretty good indicator of what I mean here. Hitting is what they do now. Checking is what it started out as. The intent in checking a player was to knock him off the puck. Not to flatten him or put him in the hospital. It has evolved into this however. It's now more about the fear of getting hit than just breaking up the play with a check.
I hope you get what I mean, I typed this in haste.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 17:47:22
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Intimidation has been an integral part of hockey for at least half a century. There have been no apologies for that. Intent to injure is what has been the big issue since the McSorely/ Brashear incident, specifically, headshots. Clarke on Kharlamov was actually an emotionally fueled, yet strategic infraction that helped the Canadian team win that particular tournament. Steve Downie's hit on McCammond was pointless, self-serving, cowardly, and deserved of his punishment. It was a freakin' pre-season game! You cannot tell me that he made that hit for the good of his team.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 18:19:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Leigh, I can't disagree with anything more than your points here. Firstly, the Moore hit was an elbow reaction AFTER Naslund tried to avoid the hit. Should it have been a suspension?? Not sure. I felt is was more of a missed hit that turned into an elbow than an intentional hit to the head. But it wasn't even close to this. Moore was looking for a solid hit, Downie was head hunting.
Leigh - Beans I have a feeling that we've been down this road before. So Elbow/shoulder or somewhere in between, all I will say is that it was a hit to the head while a guy was vulnerable and it was ugly.
And I hear your lesson. I truly do. These guys do get paid a lot to play the game and there are risks. Baseball players also play knowing that there are bats involved. Does that mean a player could attack another player with a bat because it's part of the equipment of the game??
Leigh - Really? A baseball bat? Is that you're argument? T I shouldn't even justify that with an answer but I'll humour you; the differences are many but at the very least, hitting someone with a baseball bat is not part of baseball. lol!
Look at how many people Scott Stevens and Lindros in his prime took out. THAT'S part of hockey. Not what Downie did. He left his feet and led with his shoulder into McAmmond's head.
Leigh - Stevens was a great hitter but don't kid yourself, he left his feet on several occasions, including a hit on Lindros I believe.
Just like Campbell said, he didn't expect that ALL criteria for a suspension-potential hit would occur in one hit.
I might even agree that the suspension is a little bit harsh, but it's the outcome that is important. Maybe this will send a message to players that they must look out for each other a little more than what they have in the past.
Leigh - Someone has to be sacrificed is what you're saying here? This is just about the opposite of people saying "If the hit was on Gretzky/Crosby he would have gotten more!" Because Downie is a nobody he had the book thrown at him. It was a calculated move by Campbell to say the least. Definitely a smart move on his part (still don't agree though)
And if it is so unjust, why has every single NHL player to this point have all said that the play had no place in hockey and the one's that have talked about the suspension agree with the length??
Leigh - They have to. It's politically correct and there are very few outspoken ones left.[b]
[b]Leigh - You don't have any comment on the gear suggestion? Wouldn't it be a smart idea? Keeps the product safer wouldn't you say?
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 18:23:55
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
...I also want to throw this out there. I believe a huge part of the problem with hitting these days is that the players and everyone else have lost sight of what the original intent of "hitting" was. First let me say that calling it hitting is a pretty good indicator of what I mean here. Hitting is what they do now. Checking is what it started out as. The intent in checking a player was to knock him off the puck. Not to flatten him or put him in the hospital. It has evolved into this however. It's now more about the fear of getting hit than just breaking up the play with a check.
I hope you get what I mean, I typed this in haste.
That is a very good point Willus. Understood and agreed. A change of attitude would have to start at the coaching level at a young age. Many coaches teach their young players to "HAMMER HIM!!" There is a bad attitude of one-up-manship. You hit me hard so I'm going to hit you harder.... |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 18:26:39
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Leigh - I looked at the hit again after reading your post with your comment about players going for the shoulders/chest in mind. Given that Downie sort of propelled himself in an upward motion, jumping up and throwing his body weight at what he must have known was, at the very least, the guy's upper body area anyway, I think the best that I can concede is that, if Downie wasn't headhunting, he simply didn't care too much if it was gonna be a headshot. In other words, he just sort of went at it with an "if I hit the guy in the head, I hit the guy in the head" irresponsible mentality. I'm not saying he consciously said that to himself (of course, there was no time to), but just that nothing went off in his head to sort of act as a mental check to somehow try to avoid or at least lessen the potentially dangerous consequences.
And though I agree that hockey is an inherently dangerous game, I think that strong attempts to at least try to minimize the danger are probably a good thing. I don't know how much a 20 game suspension is gonna get players thinking/caring more about anything, but I think it will be a little more effective than the 2 game suspension you mentioned in your post.
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 18:27:30
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quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
.....Steve Downie's hit on McCammond was pointless, self-serving, cowardly, and deserved of his punishment. It was a freakin' pre-season game! You cannot tell me that he made that hit for the good of his team.
OIO, It might have been a lowly preseason game for you and me...but for the guys trying to make the show it might be their ONLY chance to prove their worth. Big checks and big fights are what it's about for them. From management down to the players, they all know that. |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 18:35:32
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
.....Steve Downie's hit on McCammond was pointless, self-serving, cowardly, and deserved of his punishment. It was a freakin' pre-season game! You cannot tell me that he made that hit for the good of his team.
OIO, It might have been a lowly preseason game for you and me...but for the guys trying to make the show it might be their ONLY chance to prove their worth. Big checks and big fights are what it's about for them. From management down to the players, they all know that.
And that is exactly what it was. It was his (hopefully failed) attempt to make the flyers. He's not going to be the leading goal scorer for Philly and he's not know to be a playmaker either. The hit on Mcammond is exactly his game and thats what he most likely was trying to prove when he hit Mcammond. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 18:49:59
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quote:
Originally posted by andyhack
Leigh - I looked at the hit again after reading your post with your comment about players going for the shoulders/chest in mind. Given that Downie sort of propelled himself in an upward motion, jumping up and throwing his body weight at what he must have known was, at the very least, the guy's upper body area anyway, I think the best that I can concede is that, if Downie wasn't headhunting, he simply didn't care too much if it was gonna be a headshot. In other words, he just sort of went at it with an "if I hit the guy in the head, I hit the guy in the head" irresponsible mentality. I'm not saying he consciously said that to himself (of course, there was no time to), but just that nothing went off in his head to sort of act as a mental check to somehow try to avoid or at least lessen the potentially dangerous consequences.
And though I agree that hockey is an inherently dangerous game, I think that strong attempts to at least try to minimize the danger are probably a good thing. I don't know how much a 20 game suspension is gonna get players thinking/caring more about anything, but I think it will be a little more effective than the 2 game suspension you mentioned in your post.
Leigh - Fair enough. I don't really have a direct response to that Andy. I suppose you're right but I can't speak to his state of mind. He left his feet and I agree that it is a penalty. It looked like he intended to hurt him by hitting him EXCEPTIONALLY hard. He even took advantage of a guy who was not looking. These are all punishable offences and should be such. Like I said, perhaps even a few games (5 would have seemed extreme to me) But this thing happens all the time and if he was a somebody he would have gotten a much lesser sentence. But sadly for Downie, he is a nobody. So Colin gets this one served to him on a silver platter. The cost to the league is minimal by sitting him and he gets to make an example of him with an exorbitantly severe suspension. To me it is shameful and unjust, but I get it. (yes yes, and what about McAmmond? it's shameful and unjust for him too)
One thing I will say that is good. At least the league is handing out high suspensions all around. I personally don't like it but like you said, they are making people think and being reasonably consistent. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens when a superstar is on the line |
Edited by - leigh on 09/28/2007 18:54:44 |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 18:52:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Leafs Rock Planet
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
.....Steve Downie's hit on McCammond was pointless, self-serving, cowardly, and deserved of his punishment. It was a freakin' pre-season game! You cannot tell me that he made that hit for the good of his team.
OIO, It might have been a lowly preseason game for you and me...but for the guys trying to make the show it might be their ONLY chance to prove their worth. Big checks and big fights are what it's about for them. From management down to the players, they all know that.
And that is exactly what it was. It was his (hopefully failed) attempt to make the flyers. He's not going to be the leading goal scorer for Philly and he's not know to be a playmaker either. The hit on Mcammond is exactly his game and thats what he most likely was trying to prove when he hit Mcammond.
I can buy that. Since the dawn of hockey, everyone has their role. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2007 : 22:09:02
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I think that the most important point brought up was from Willus. The entire point of hitting in hockey was to get a guy off the puck. Somewhere along the line, it evolved into what it is today. Right or wrong, it is what it is. I personally don't agree with a hit like what Downie did, but that is what is going to happen when the way players are coached is to hit harder and harder. And I was talking to my wife about it tonight, and we talked about a good point. As a hockey fan, do you not want to see the biggest hit possible without a guy getting hurt? If McAmmond gets up and skates away and the hit started a bench clearing brawl, the fans would love it. I would love it for sure. I just don’t like to see guys getting hurt.
And point about it being a meaningless preseason game is also important. Hopefully, at the least, this suspension will show that rook trying to make the team that a dirty hit is not the way to go. But it's also a good point that Downie is a "nobody" for now, so Downie sitting out is really insignificant. However, I think the league will be doing something if and when a big name player does something like this and the suspension is the same.
Regardless if you think the check was ok or not, the players are getting hurt on a more frequent basis now then ever before because of what I think we can all agree on is reckless (irresponsible) play. Something has to be done. Working on the shoulder pads is for sure one in my opinion. I did hear that that is something Campbell is working on with the competition committee.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
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Pigeon Killer
Top Prospect
Canada
1 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2007 : 09:06:15
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| Hey I love a big hit better than anyone but when Idiots start going fot the head leaving thier feet and hitting late forget about head up or watching the pass then I say suspend them and I will go even farter they are not allowed to practice with the team period. They want to practice they can book thier own ice time.I also think a big part of the problem in the NHL is the instigator rule its all wrong the who respond to a dirty hit like the downie should not get the instigator penaly it should be the guy who started it all with the dirty hit in this case McAmmond I believe this would help curb this trend in hockey cause if they don't do something in a few years we will have a bunch of ex hhlers who wont know thier own names!!!!!!!!!! from too many concussions |
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spade632
Rookie
Canada
247 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2007 : 11:14:09
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In the Stevens hit on Lindros, Stevens' feet don't leave the ice before the hit. He lead with the shoulder, and although his feet do leave the ice (his right foot briefly and his left foot flies out behind him) it can no way be construed as jumping. http://youtube.com/watch?v=16Z7-XRPcrw
As far as Downie not being a repeat offender goes, that's only because his OHL record (8 suspensions, including one for hitting a teammate with the butt end of a stick in practice, and an order to attend anger management classes) doesn't count in the NHL.
This is from an article on Downie and details his suspensions in the OHL.
Downie was suspended at least eight times over his four seasons in the league, mostly for fighting and confrontations with referees.
The most infamous incident came two years ago when he was a member of the Windsor Spitfires - just a few months before he helped lead Canada to victory at the world juniors. Downie, then 18, skated up to 16-year-old rookie teammate Akim Aliu during practice, tapped him on the shoulder and then rammed his stick into Aliu's mouth.
The attack on Aliu, who lost some teeth as a result, was blamed on a couple of fights the two had had during practice. But there were reports that bad blood between Downie and Aliu started brewing two weeks earlier when the younger player refused to participate in a hazing ritual on the team bus. Aliu wouldn't get into the "hotbox" - the bus's washroom - with four other Spitfires who were naked. The team was fined and then general manager/coach Moe Mantha was suspended by the OHL for allowing the hazing to take place. He was later fired by the club over the incident.
Downie was suspended for five games by the Spitfires and told to seek anger-management counselling, but he refused to report back to the team. He was eventually traded to the Petes, who won the league championship the following spring. Meanwhile, Aliu was given a game suspension for fighting, told to undergo counselling and was eventually traded to the Sudbury Wolves
(http://www.canada.com/topics/sports/story.html?id=290c13ad-e05d-43d1-ac5e-ae294e9995d1
In terms of length, I'm glad to see that the NHL handed Downie 20 games. It is a promising sign that they intend to treat any shots to the head seriously. However, one of the analysts on TSN raised a good point last night: What if it had been (say) Pronger who had delivered the hit? Would he have gotten 20 games too?
Leigh - hitting someone with a hockey stick isn't part of hockey either. (I know this isn't what you were implying of course.)
Willus - I agree. While I enjoy seeing a good hard hit, the mentality has changed from simply getting a guy of the puck to "hitting him." That said, I don't see anything wrong with a good, hard, CLEAN hit.
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Edited by - spade632 on 09/29/2007 11:15:26 |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2007 : 12:43:13
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quote:
Originally posted by spade632
....Leigh - hitting someone with a hockey stick isn't part of hockey either. (I know this isn't what you were implying of course.)
Spade, you're right I wasn't implying that and I think you may not have read the post I was replying to, before responding to my post. It read:
quote:
Originally posted by beans15
...These guys do get paid a lot to play the game and there are risks. Baseball players also play knowing that there are bats involved. Does that mean a player could attack another player with a bat because it's part of the equipment of the game??...
So as you can see I was responding to his baseball bat beatiing reference being compared to a body check.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2007 : 17:47:59
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Hey Leigh, I know the beating with a bat is a stretch, but my point is that just because something is part of a game it doesn't make it legal to use how ever one wishes. It's on the extreme of the spectrum, but I hope you can see the point. My point was that I agree that if you play hockey you are taking the risk of getting hit. But are you taking the risk of someone ending your career based on a hit that has been agreed upon by the competition committee(which includes players) has answered yes to each of the 5 criteria for a suspensionable act?? Not ne, not two, but every criteria!!
That's the part I disagree with.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
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SlowShot
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
264 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2007 : 22:42:05
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Every time Stevens was on the ice you knew he was trying to injure someone.
Also im back on another forum for summer since it so dead around here during summer. Time for my hockey pools
Pickup hockey pool |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2007 : 22:51:21
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quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
LeafsFan that rite there is HOCKEY!!!
Obviously I don't like to see injuries but McAmmond's head was down and he passed the puck and Downie hit him in about half a second. You are allowed to finish your check in the NHL if you didn't know. Yes, he did jump. Yes he did hit him in the head but where else are you suppose to hit them, knees?Arm? C'mon!
It's entertaining and the consequence is bad but hey that's hockey it's always risky to step out on the ice in the NHL. I hope McAmmond gets better but that's the risk of playing hockey with your head down.
No Sacrifice , No Victory!
It's Entertaining? If your idea of entertaining is watching a guy get injured like that, then well i lost a great deal of respect for you. The hit was dirty plain and simple. I dont care if McAmmond wasnt paying attention Downie came from the opposite side of the ice to hit him, there is no reason Downie should have been near McAmmond at the time of the hit.
Based on other hits from other players (Pronger actually knocked McAmmond out in the playoffs with a similer hit and got one game) the suspension was a bit much but if that is what it takes to stop those kind of hits then so be it.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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SlowShot
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
264 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2007 : 22:59:00
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I agree with you Canucks man Downie was head hunting. The penalty was harsh repaired to most but its a good way to start showing whats gona happen to these plays. Downie was being a baby just because he got hit dosen't mean he had to come full speed from the blue line and jump at the guys head. Also Dean McAmmond what he ever do?
Pickup hockey pool |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2007 : 06:08:49
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It might be time for some of us to pull out Don Cherry’s “Rock’em Sock’em” videos.
You will see some great hits, and some dirty hits, pause them, and see how many leave their feet, stick out a knee, or throw an elbow, and were never penalized.
Every hit has intent, some players seeking revenge from a past hit, slash, elbow, spear, butt end, knee etc. on themselves, or on one of their fellow players.
Punish the player for his actions, like leaving his feet, shot to the head, hits from behind, etc. 20 games may send a message to other players that leave their feet on almost every hit (Darcy Tucker for one), and that is what Campbell did.
If you think the NHL should punish players on intent then they should get “The Amazing Kreskin” to punish the players not Colin Campbell, anyone can watch a video, but no one reads peoples minds like Kreskin…
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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Topic |
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Steve Downie Totally Levels Dean McAmmond! 
