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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
 Posted - 03/10/2013 : 21:11:29
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Wow, i didn't even realize that the Oilers were last in the West! Guest 4377's post regarding 1st vs last pointed this out to me!
Man, if they tank the second half and end up with a top 3 pick that would be insane! Even if they didn't land #1, there's 3 pretty nice looking guys there in Jones, McKinnon and Drouin! I wouldn't doubt if they didn't get the pick that would land Jones that they'd offer up some sort of deal with the other teams to ensure they could get him! And, the trade rumours have begun yet again with Sam Gagner who just so happens to be their current leading scorer!!! I'm not saying "tank" as in "intentionally lose", but it'd be easy at this point to deal off Gagner while his stock is at it's highest ever and coast through the rest of the season. There was even talk a few weeks back that RNH's shoulder had been bugging him and that he may need surgery in the off season? The Oil could easily shut him down at some point to get a jump on the recovery time and allow themselves to get a potential game changer out of the lineup in their bid to unintentionally intentionally suck???
Beans, looks like you may be sporting the leaf logo yet again come playoffs / offseason??? 
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2013 : 07:55:09
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Alex, i thought the Oilers were going to be higher in the standings at this point of the season than what they are, middle of the pack anyway.....until...
I watched a couple of games they played earlier this season.
Man their defense is HORRIBLE......never seen so many 2 on 1`s and odd man rushes in 1 game in my entire life......reminded me of the leafs last season  .........i think i posted this observation earlier this season and Beans rebuttled it, listing the Oilers defense, but they are a sad core....overall anyway.
Theres something else i notice while watching the Oilers, so many of their up-and-coming stars seem so small.
Are they mostly small players. R.N. Hopkins looks to have such a small build.....J. Eberle looks pretty small......S. Gagne doesn`t look to have any size to him.....don`t know whioi`ve missed.
Maybe some of these guys are bigger than they appear, i don`t know. I wonder if the rigor of an NHL season takes its toll on these smaller players ??
Just a suggestion, any comments any1 ??
These young stars, ( including several # 1 draft picks ) have been playing together for long enough now to be showing big improvements....but...the Oilers seem to be stagmented !!!....Whats going on ??
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2013 : 08:44:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Theres something else i notice while watching the Oilers, so many of their up-and-coming stars seem so small.
Duke, this is something i talked to a couple of buddies about the other day. As a Canucks fan, i hear time and time again that the Sedin's aren't "tough" enough and how the team in general isn't tough enough. It's one of the top reason's people think that the Canucks couldn't beat Boston in '11. I don't know if i totally agree, but i have to admit, if you can have some of your better support players be not just skilled, but big in size and tough/gritty, it can only help. When you come within 1 win of the Stanley Cup, i don't think it's fair to say "you'll never win with those guys" or "the twins can't and won't ever win a cup", etc. While this late in their career, it may never happen, but i don't believe for a second that it's what held them back. Maybe it's part of the reason that they weren't in that position more than just that one season and struggled with the Blackhawks in years past to get there but to imply that they're lack of toughness and/or grit would make it impossible to win it all is absurd IMO.
As far as this pertaining to the Oilers, it's very similar. Their all star cast is potentially better than anything the Canucks have ever had BUT most of them are small in stature and don't posses that gritty element. Hall, it could be argued, offers a little physicality, but he's also been injured a few times in his young career which may of my not have been fluke on a few occasions? But, Eberle, RNH, Gagner, Yakupov, etc are not the type of guys to scare a defender into shying away from a puck in the corner. Sure, they could load up the 3rd and 4th lines with some toughness, but unless they can find a really nice 3rd or 4th line for cheap, they may have tough finding enough skill in that mix to make it an effective trio (either line). Role players will be a HUGE factor in how well the Oilers do in the future, and considering the amount of money their top line guys are sure to eat up (not to mention the improved D they'll need and the cost of that + goaltending), and it's gonna be interesting to see what they can find for those bottom 6 spots. Look at what Chicago had before they had to blow it up with Ladd, Byfuglien, Burrish, Eager, etc all "on the cheap" and all filling in a mix of skill and grit as far as their roles!
No doubt the Oilers have the potential to be a very fun team to watch and, for their fans, cheer for, but they've def got some work to do before they're there.
I really am shocked at how poorly they've fared thus far, however, with the sophmore slump RNH is struggling through and a porous defense, maybe i shouldn't be? |
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Guest4178
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Posted - 03/13/2013 : 12:42:35
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The Oilers are actually about the same size as the Bruins. In fact, they are a little bigger.
When checking out the rosters for both teams, the Oilers average 6' 1 1/2" 206 pounds, while the Bruins (Chara included) come in at 6' 1 2/3" 202 pounds.
Size doesn't translate (necessarily) to toughness though. The Bruins (and most other teams) are tougher than the Oilers, but let's be clear – the Oilers are not small in stature.
And they're about 2 1/2 years younger than the Bruins (and one of the youngest teams in the NHL). The young Oiler players will get bigger, and they will get better.
I won't argue that they are underperforming this season, but who pegged them to make the playoffs? I picked them to finish somewhere between 7th - 12th (how about that for going out on a limb?), and right now, they are still only 3 points out of a playoff spot.
But when projecting points totals in the Western Conference, a team will probably need at least 55 points to make the playoffs. On this basis, the Oilers are a long shot to make the playoffs.
They would need to get at least 30 points in their remaining 22 games. Not impossible, but not likely. I now see them finishing between 9th - 13th, which is less than what I projected at the beginning of the season. And it's very likely that the difference between 9th-13th (or 3rd-8th for that matter) will be a couple of wins, especially in this shortened season.
This "rebuild" is going slower than expected, but I still see the Oilers being a top team in the next 2-3 years. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 18:34:49
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I just want to highlight a few things:
1 - Standings are deceptive at first glance. There is only 5 points separating 8th from 15th in the West and 4 pts separate the Oilers from that middle of the pack Mr. "I haven't seen so many 2 on 1's" apparently predicted.
2 - How many other teams in the NHL are going to have a 9 game road trip, spending 17 days away from their home rink, in just a 48 game season?? I'll give you a clue. None. The Oilers came out of that road trip gaining points in 6 of the past 10 games.
3 - Let's review that road trip really quickly. They played, in order, CHI, DAL, STL, MIN, CBJ, DET, NASH, CHI(again), and COL. 4 of those games against playoff teams. 25 goals for, 29 goals again, a win and an OTL against CHI, and a shutout of COL.
4 - The Oilers have played 27 games, 17 of those on the road. That means in their final 21 games they will play 7 road games and 15 home games.
5 - The Oilers give up a lot of shots and that is not a good thing. But let's look a little deepers. 7th in PP, 7th in PK, 21st in GA. Their issue is NOT defense, for anyone who actually watches the game. Their problem is their inability to score even strength. They are 2nd to last in 5 on 5 For/Against. The Oilers have only 33 even strength goals, the fewest in the NHL. A few other things that prove their issues are more offensive than defensive. : The Oilers are also top 5 in blocked shots and 20th in takeaways. However, I have no dilisions in this being a 'great' defensive team. They also are top 5 in giveaways and they are horrible in the faceoff circle.
Summing up, the Oilers are coming off the longest and hardest road trip any team in the NHL will be on this year and they are still hanging around. I am not saying they are going to chase a playoff spot but their do have a more favourable schedule in the 2nd half of the season. The are holding their own defensively. Not tops of the league but certainly not bottoms. But, their biggest issue, by far, is their inability to score even strength. |
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Guest0930
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Posted - 03/15/2013 : 19:35:38
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i find it funny when I hear dumb comments like "trade Gagner because his value is at its peak".
i wonder how that works elsewhere..."I think the penguins should trade Crosby to Edmonton because his value is at its peak and edmonton has lots of young talent to give back"
sounds better now because my team will get the peak player.
the only time you should trade a peak player is when his contract is up and you risk losing him for nothing. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 22:33:45
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Beans, EVERYTHING i read, leads me to believe that the Oilers are struggling at defense. In fairness, that would include the forwards not chipping in on the defensive side of the puck, as well as Horcoff's lengthy absence. I understand that he's one of their better defensive centers and he's been missed in that regard. I have to say though, i've read extensively about Whitney and Petry's horrible play this year. It's no secret that Whitney was a healthy scratch on numerous occasions due to this! The Oilers, as a team, are not good defensively at this point. A good dman or two, as well as the return of Horcoff, would help this problem area.
Guest0930.........I'm not so sure that trading a guy while his value is high can be called a "dumb comment". Well, at least not fairly, anyway! And, as for your comment about "the only time you should trade a peak player is when his contract is up and you risk losing him for nothing", it's an interesting opinion, and nothing more. Please also keep in mind that Gagner's contract IS in fact up at the end of this year. Now, he' RFA, not UFA, so they wouldn't lose him for nothing, but when you consider that Eberle and Hall are both up for new contracts as well, AND RNH, Yakupov, etc will follow in the comming years, the Oilers need to ensure that they can afford all these young guys. So, why not deal off a guy "when his stock is at an all time high" for needs such as defense, which maybe you can afford?
The reference to trading Crosby is going a bit far. Nobody was suggesting that any team should trade ANY player when they are at their peak or when their stock is at its highest, just that perhaps its good to trade such a player if he maybe doesn't necessarily fit into your long term plans due to other considerations (like other guys needing to be signed). Welcome to the salary cap world where teams can't just sign every guy they may want to ! |
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Guest4145
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Posted - 03/16/2013 : 00:54:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest0930
i find it funny when I hear dumb comments like "trade Gagner because his value is at its peak".
i wonder how that works elsewhere..."I think the penguins should trade Crosby to Edmonton because his value is at its peak and edmonton has lots of young talent to give back"
sounds better now because my team will get the peak player.
the only time you should trade a peak player is when his contract is up and you risk losing him for nothing.
If a player is peaking and you don't expect him to keep it up, and he's not in the long term plans, why not trade him? Look at guys like Boyes and Cheechoo, they both had 40+ goal seasons and a few seasons later were struggling to get 10. It would be a lot easier to get some good players for Cheechoo after his 56 goal year than his 12 goal year.
When it comes to someone like Crosby, you know he can sustain his play for awhile, and is in the long term plans, so it's not the same as a guy like Gagner.. So that wasn't a very good example. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 06:24:54
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Alex, you must be reading the wrong stuff! 
Kidding aside, I would like to understand what you are reading that indicates the defensive woes for the Oilers. Let me reiterate a few things: 7th in PK, 5th in blocked shots, top 20 in takeaways and shots against.
However, dead last in the NHL in even strength goals scored.
I still think the defense is doing their job, the lack of non-special team scoring is the issue.
But we are all entitled to our own opinions. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 09:30:48
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From a person who watches a lot of Oilers hockey live and tries to catch as much as possible on TV, I can tell you that at points the Oilers seem disorganized in there own end. It isn't an exclusive problem, but can last for long stretches of games. The Oilers also cycle well, but at times dont throw the pucks at the net while waiting for the perfect scoring opportunity. I was there live for the Colorado game a few weeks ago in Edmonton, and the first 30 minutes Colorado was up like 3-0. At that point of the game the Oilers had thrown a lot of shots at the net, but had numerous scoring chances against due to being caught up ice trying to make a fancy play and the result was a good turnover by Colorado which the capitalized on. When they seemed to jell, the Oilers scored 4 unanswered goals and seemed to play a complete game from both ends of the ice. I think a lot of inconsistancies are due to not winning key faceoffs which put them on there heels alot. With Horcoff back and him being there best faceoff guy and a hard nose 2way player the Oilers seem to be playing more consistant.
I am not saying they have all the pieces now, but what it seems like the Oilers are lacking is consistant play and experience. Add a few veteran players in the lineup with a few extra miles of experience, grit, character and heart, this team could go farther up the standings. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2013 : 13:52:20
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Joshua, I agree the Oilers have had long stretches of skating around their end like pee wee's, all 5 guys chasing the puck. However, the more pressing issue is what you highlighted about their inability to get the puck on the net. Specifically even strength scoring.
Let me out this into perspective. The Penguins and Oilers are very close to one another from a defensive standpoint and special teams. However, the two teams are far far apart in the standings. The difference???
The Penguins have the most even strength goals. The Oilers have the least. Even if the Oilers were middle of the road in even strength scoring I would suggest they would have at least 3-5 more wins this season.
That alone is the different between being a lottery team and being a top three team in the conference. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2013 : 14:35:22
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Would you suggest players like Malkin or Letang could right the ship? Either of these guys can create scoring chances at even strength. Not saying either of these guys are available but since you brought up the Penguins, would you suggest a player of there ilk could right the ship in Edmonton? The current roster has the ability now to score in bunches.
Its been suggested in the Edmonton Sun, that they need to change there tactics to a dump and chase style while maintaining good group defense, which is how they have been playing for the last week with success. This takes away from the creative plays that half of the roster is expected to produce, but in a Kovalchuk in New Jersey type way makes some sense as when the opportunity for a creative play exists they have the players to capitalize.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Joshua, I agree the Oilers have had long stretches of skating around their end like pee wee's, all 5 guys chasing the puck. However, the more pressing issue is what you highlighted about their inability to get the puck on the net. Specifically even strength scoring.
Let me out this into perspective. The Penguins and Oilers are very close to one another from a defensive standpoint and special teams. However, the two teams are far far apart in the standings. The difference???
The Penguins have the most even strength goals. The Oilers have the least. Even if the Oilers were middle of the road in even strength scoring I would suggest they would have at least 3-5 more wins this season.
That alone is the different between being a lottery team and being a top three team in the conference.
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Cyclonis
Top Prospect
Canada
56 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2013 : 11:08:58
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Sliding, seems over, yes the Oil lost to Vancouver last night but that was after a 5 game win streak which included a win at home against Van.
They really "looked" tired last night. The slide may have cost the Oil the playoffs this year, now 1 point behind St. Louis with the Blues having two games in hand, it doesn't look good for making 8th. The Blues play Chicago a few times in April but also have as many games against Columbus...Go Marion! The Oil will need some help and a decent win streak to keep hope alive!
The Kid line will have to step it up the rest of the way if the April 27 game against the Canucks is to have any meaning. |
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Guest4178
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Posted - 04/05/2013 : 12:30:47
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For their remaining eleven games, the Oilers have an interesting schedule. After playing the Kings and Ducks, the Oilers are home for 7 of their last 9 games.
And except for a game against the Coyotes, the Oilers do not play the two likely teams they're chasing for the 8th and final playoff spot (Detroit, St. Louis), OR the two other teams (Columbus, Nashville) who currently sit a point below the Oilers in the standings. (And Dallas deserves a mention too.)
That's good and bad. In some ways, it's good the Oilers are playing teams who are not scrambling to make the playoffs. The Ducks (3x), Wild (2x), Hawks, Canucks and Kings do not really have the same extent of "must win" games as the teams sitting in 7th-12th place in the west.
But these teams are very good teams, and while some teams may coast a bit down the stretch (big emphasis on "a bit"), these are all tough opponents. Rounding out the Oilers season, they play two teams out of the playoff picture (Colorado and Calgary), but you can't take these two teams lightly. The Av's and Flames will surely relish playing the spoiler role.
So except for the Coyotes, the Oilers have zero games against teams they are fighting with for the final playoff spot. Too bad, because these games are 4-point games, but on the other hand, there are a few teams in the same hunt who face off against each other, with a guarantee that one team will lose. (However, this also brings out the potential of 3-point overtime games.)
For the Oilers to make the playoffs, I think they will need 15-16 points in their remaining 11 games. That's a tall order. Translated, this works out to 8 wins in their last 11 games, or 7 wins and at least one overtime loss point in their remaining 11 games.
It should be an interesting stretch run (for all teams holding on, or teams making a push). From a fan's perspective, the more meaningful games down the stretch, the better!
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2013 : 13:40:06
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A couple of points:
1 - I love being right!! The Oilers performance improved when they began to score goals, not when their defense improved. Their defense plays as it is designed. They are not a Boston/Ottawa/Rangers type of team that shuts the opposition down. They are a bend but not break group that just need one more stop than the other team.
2 - The Oilers special teams have not changed from where they have been all season, but they have moved from 30th to 23th in the past 15 games in 5/5 goal for and against. Like I said, the Oilers even strength scoring was their biggest issue. Still not great but very easy to see that when they played better even strength they started winning more.
3 - 15-16 points in the next 11 games is not that tall of an order. Since the Oilers killer 9-game road trip they have played exactly 11 games with a record of 6-3-2 gaining 14 points and outscored their opposition 35-26.
It is more than a pipedream that the Oilers make the playoffs. I am not etching anything in stone yet but it I like their chances. More than anything else, the Oilers are playing meaningful games at the end of the season. That is a massive improvement over the past 3-5 years. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2013 : 20:33:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
1 - I love being right!! The Oilers performance improved when they began to score goals, not when their defense improved. Their defense plays as it is designed. They are not a Boston/Ottawa/Rangers type of team that shuts the opposition down. They are a bend but not break group that just need one more stop than the other team.
Don't pull a muscle patting yourself on the back Beans! 
I still don't fully agree. Sure, any team scoring more goals, be it PP, even strength or wherever, is gonna improve them! But why is it, even at the deadline, many suggestions were made about the Oilers needing to trade for help on D?
If it's all about even strength goals for, how is it that the Sens have been in the playoff mix in the east for the entire season, while having less 5 on 5 goals than the Oilers? Uh, maybe because their D is better?
Could it be that the Oilers D lacks in guys who can create from the back end? I'm not expecting them all to go Dan Boyle on the opposition and go end to end, but to help with break out passes and clearing their zone? Now, i don't watch the Oilers a ton (no more than i have to  ), but these are things i hear/read when listening to sports talk shows and reading news related to the NHL.
To say they bend but not break and need one more stop than the opposition to me says, they need to improve.  |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2013 : 11:33:21
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With all that young talent available......
Why in the name of god didn`t the Oilers give Ottawa a better deal and steal Ben Bishop ??????
I`m sure they could have coughed up 1 better prospect than 5` 8`` Cory C.....
So stupid of them.....what a difference he could have made to that team...now TB will reap the benefits. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2013 : 06:09:35
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Couple of things:
I never said that 5 on 5 scoring is the recipe for all teams to win, I said that was the deficiency that was causing the Oilers to lose. This is a discussion about the Oilers, why would in care that Ottawa is a better defensive team? A team wins based on utilizing their assets and playing a system of hockey that suits their talent. The Oilers are not a defensive team like Ottawa or Boston. They are an offensive team like Pittsburgh or Tampa Bay. Their PP is awesome, their issues are 5 on 5 scoring and secondary scoring more so than defensive issues. That was my point.
Duke, every discussion around the Oilers needs are size and grit. How is a goalie going to do that? You also clearly have no idea what the Oilers did offer for Bishop nor does anyone else. The rumour is the offer was Ryan Jones and a 2nd rounder. That is very comparable to the deal that was actually made for Bishop. More importantly, what's wrong with Dubnyk? Of the goalies in the NHL who have faced more than 900 shots, he is top 5 in both save % and GAA.
Considering Dubnyk has faced more than 200 more shots than James Riemer and has a better GAA and save %, maybe the Leafs should have made that trade? As well as 20 other teams?? It sounds like Ben Bishop is the next goalie messiah and everyone should have traded for him, even if their established #1 goalie is doing their job? |
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markliso
Rookie
Canada
104 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2013 : 17:32:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Duke, every discussion around the Oilers needs are size and grit. How is a goalie going to do that? You also clearly have no idea what the Oilers did offer for Bishop nor does anyone else. The rumour is the offer was Ryan Jones and a 2nd rounder. That is very comparable to the deal that was actually made for Bishop. More importantly, what's wrong with Dubnyk? Of the goalies in the NHL who have faced more than 900 shots, he is top 5 in both save % and GAA.
Considering Dubnyk has faced more than 200 more shots than James Riemer and has a better GAA and save %, maybe the Leafs should have made that trade? As well as 20 other teams?? It sounds like Ben Bishop is the next goalie messiah and everyone should have traded for him, even if their established #1 goalie is doing their job?
I like dubnyk and don't want him to leave/replaced/made a backup again. I feel he is one of the more talented goalies in the league and will be great for our future. He has had a great mentor in Bulin and I feel he is greatly underestimated. I feel some of our defensive gaffes on some goals and have to fully agree with our offensive inabilities this year to convert to success. Whenever edmonton is shut out, I just shake my head and feel it can't be his fault since the rest of the team didn't do much of anything to help him out and support him with some goals. Edmonton is an offensive team and will continue to grow and get better. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2013 : 12:37:13
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Guys, i don`t see duby play, i don`t know his stats.
I guess TSN just shows his soft goals and not his big time saves.
The Oil are slipping again and i guess its just natural to think that goal-tending is one of their problems.
Beans its unfair to say that the leafs should have traded for Bishop because of Reimers goalie stats ( compared to Duby ).......the leafs are in 5th in the east.....the oil are outside of the playoff picture ( right now )
How can you justify the fact that the leafs need Bishop just as much as the Oilers ?
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2013 : 14:33:32
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The Oilers of the 80's won cups with Andy Moog and Grant Fuhr. They won in 1990 with Bill Ranford. Ranford won the Conn Smythe. Fuhr will be a HOF. I think it is fair to say that all three goalies owe their respective successes to the teams in front of them. As this Oilers team develops, I think the same will be said of Devan Dubnyk. As nice as it would be to have a world-class tender, it may not be necessary. Bishop may well turn out to be a bust. Dubnyk as well.
The devil you know......
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2013. |
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Guest4377
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Posted - 04/08/2013 : 18:36:32
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Duke - not sure how you can make the comment that the Oilers should have traded for Ben Bishop when admittedly, you haven't watched their number one goalie (Dubnyk) play?
As for Dubnyk's stats, you may not know his stats, but you can look them up.
Here's one for example. Dubnyk is tied for 9th place (with Corey Crawford) with a .922 save percentage. Which is currently better than Reimer's save percentage.
Granted, the Leafs are ahead in the standings, but the Oilers are not going to miss the playoffs (which looks to be the case, unless they can win 8 of their last 10 games) because of bad goaltending.
Take a look at the Blue Jackets, who are currently tied with the Oilers in points. You can't blame Columbus' goaltending for their position in the standings. Bobrovsky has played great in net this season, and he may be on the Vezina ballot for his fine play.
Getting back to the Oilers, their goaltending and defense has done reasonably well this season, ahead of expectations. And the Oilers have done very well with special teams, so that's not the problem. (Which others have pointed out.)
The Oilers can't score 5-on-5, and that's been their failing. In 38 games played, the Oilers and Leafs have allowed the same number of goals (106), but the Leafs have scored 17 more goals than the Oilers. That's the key.
So if you're looking for reasons why the Oilers will likely miss the playoffs, I don't think you can blame their goaltending. (Which includes Khabibulun, who has played in 9 games, and shares an almost identical save percentage and GAA as Dubnyk.)
Duke - you should try watching a few Oiler games, or for that matter, other west coast teams. :)
I easily take in numerous Leafs or Habs games (or other eastern teams), but I reside in the west. For those who reside in the west, I suppose it's easier to turn on the TV at 4 or 5 pm to watch an eastern matchup. And granted, you would have to stay up past 11 pm or midnight to catch a western matchup (for folks in the eastern time zone), and much later for those who reside in the Atlantic provinces. (Especially this season, with no cross conference play.)
It doesn't mean you can't have an opinion, but respectfully (and as an example), I would be reticent to offer a comment on Leafs breakout player Nazem Kadri if I never saw him play.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2013 : 20:01:11
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Guys if you only knew how many Oilers / Flames / Canucks games i watched during the 80`s....they are pretty much my 3 favorite teams outside of the leafs...
Some of the best hockey i`ve ever seen ( maybe the best ) was the Oilers vs Flames matchups during the 80`s.....unbelievable battles.....i was a big time Pavel Bure fan too, he was something else to watch
That was 25 - 30 years ago, i was always up late, work comes much earlier when you approach 50 years and that alarm clock gets much louder ...
No, i don`t see Duby play but why not go after Bishop hard ?? Have a great young tandem in goal....i`m sure Ottawa would have much rathered trade him to another conference. |
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Guest4377
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Posted - 04/08/2013 : 22:04:10
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Duke - good for you to stay up late (relatively speaking) to respond! :)
Did you stay up late enough to watch Dubnyk (and the Oilers) play tonight? Dubnyk was the third star, stopping 36 out of 38 shots.
Not good enough for the win though. (The Oilers lost 2-1.) With only one goal (which was a bit of a fluke), the Oilers are not going to win many games with such a limited offensive output.
And sadly (for Oiler fans), it looks very unlikely the team will see the post-season.
So for eastern fans, this just leaves the Canucks to cheer for in the west (if you like Canadian teams like Duke), and with a 2-0 win over Phoenix tonight (and with Kessler scoring in his return to the lineup), Vancouver looks pretty good right now! |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2013 : 13:06:04
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I don't think there was any reason for EDM to chase Bishop - I agree with others, Dubnyk is a solid goalie, and only getting better with time. There is no reason for EDM to trade for another goalie like him and given up assets, when they may just have another Bishop. Why go for a tandem that you will probably not be able to keep together in the long run?
Duke - you seem to be enamoured with the fact that Bishop is a big guy - have you seen the stats on Dubnyk? Similar build at 6'5/210, he fills the net pretty well. Someone else mentioned that their stats are very similar this year - and Dubnyk is doing it without the defensive system that OTT has. Many of the Oiler losses that I see are not due to bad goaltending.
I have been a believer in Dubnyk since last year, and do think that he'll develop into a quality NHL starting goalie. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2013 : 16:25:30
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| Ah, but I do watch a lot of both Oilers and Senators hockey. While there have been flashes of great from Dubnyk and flashes of not so great. Bishop for Ottawa was steady and I think that is the big difference between the 2 goalies going forward. If Habby goes down and Dubnyk isn't pushed for the starting job he doesn't win the tight games. When Habby is healthy he outplays Dubnyk for playing time. Bishop in Edmonton would have made sense for next year, as Habby is likely done after this year. He is good for half the season with his injury risks and if i was Edmonton management I would pursue another goalie from free agency or trade in the offseason. To be perfectly honest, with all the prospects that Edmonton could have offered Ottawa, why not go for a goalie like Bishop? Think of the possibilities, (Ryan Whitney, Horcoff, Hemsky, Gagner, Nuggent Hopkins) any or all had value to the depleted roster Ottawa has faced this year and Ottawa have the cap space. Heck Ottawa might have even taken on Habby's contract for the remainder of the season for the right deal as they are lacking veterans who have won it all. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2013 : 17:16:00
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| One more point to make, do the Oilers have the confidence in Dubnyk as there #1. I'm not talking about Lowe or Tambellini as I truly dont think these guys have a clue how to build a team, except when drafting a #1 forward. I am talking about the roster. If the guys upfront or on the defense are playing tight or lack the confidence when he is in net, having a backend change, good prospect in the system they can call up when they need an Oilchange or another goalie option coming in to push for playing time might do them some good. I know that every time Habby has gone down in the last 3 years I write off the Oilers chance's to make the playoffs. I have been surprised this year at times with Dubnyks play on some nights and dissapointed on other nights, but at the end of the day, its his win % that counts not his save %. Do they play better or worse when the only option is Dubnyk. |
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Guest8627
( )
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Posted - 04/09/2013 : 19:26:44
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Win percentage is more a team stat than a goalie stat.
Take Bobtovsky from Columbus as an example. He doesn't have a great win %, and his team might not make the playoffs, but I'm sure his trammates have a lot of confidence with their chances (especially of late) when he's in net. Bobrovsky will probably get consideration for the Vezina, despite his win percentage.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2013 : 21:10:11
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Ah, but I do watch a lot of both Oilers and Senators hockey. While there have been flashes of great from Dubnyk and flashes of not so great. Bishop for Ottawa was steady and I think that is the big difference between the 2 goalies going forward. If Habby goes down and Dubnyk isn't pushed for the starting job he doesn't win the tight games. When Habby is healthy he outplays Dubnyk for playing time. Bishop in Edmonton would have made sense for next year, as Habby is likely done after this year. He is good for half the season with his injury risks and if i was Edmonton management I would pursue another goalie from free agency or trade in the offseason. To be perfectly honest, with all the prospects that Edmonton could have offered Ottawa, why not go for a goalie like Bishop? Think of the possibilities, (Ryan Whitney, Horcoff, Hemsky, Gagner, Nuggent Hopkins) any or all had value to the depleted roster Ottawa has faced this year and Ottawa have the cap space. Heck Ottawa might have even taken on Habby's contract for the remainder of the season for the right deal as they are lacking veterans who have won it all.
Joshua - Bishop has only played 16 games this year. Any goalie can be steady or hot for 16 games. Hell, if 16 games is the measure of a goalie, you may as well hand Cory Schneider the Vezina now
I'm not saying that Bishop isn't The Real Deal - truthfully I don't know, as he's only played 36 NHL games over 3 seasons so its hard to tell. But Dubnyk has only played 101 games, for arguably a weaker defensive team than Bishop, and his stats are nearly identical to Bishop's. I don't think at this particular point in time that there is any appreciable difference between the two - they are both promising young goalies that are beginning to perform well for their respective teams. So why would EDM go out of their way to pickup Bishop, other than because of hype?
As for how the team plays in front of the goalie - you'll have to ask someone who sees Dubnyk on a regular basis. Surely this Canucks fan can't be the only one coming to the defense of an EDM goalie! |
Edited by - nuxfan on 04/09/2013 21:15:33 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2013 : 22:20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
Surely this Canucks fan can't be the only one coming to the defense of an EDM goalie!
Well, that might be because i'm currently being proven wrong. Really wrong!  I think Joshua's problem is the one i share with him. I've never figured Dubnyk would amount to anything more than a backup. Seems he's proving us wrong with his play this season behind what i still consider a team in need of some help on the back end. |
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markliso
Rookie
Canada
104 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2013 : 03:59:30
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Watch some of the "weak" goals that dubnyk lets in and double check who failed him. Yes, he has let in a few "weak" ones, so does every goalie in the league. But, there are a lot of times when he is left hung out to dry by his defence, who makes a poor decision or mistake in front of him which catches him out of position when he should be relying partially on his defence. He has been maturing and growing in his position, learning from Bulin and really become part of the team and the guys.
You land Bishop, and then what? More instability in the net and basically tell the goalie we don't have confidence in you. Then you have a Toronto situation where you are publicly coddling and soothing your starter, but in behind the scenes trying to work a deal for a real number one. What message is management sending?
The team and management need to have confidence in their goalie. The fans need to have confidence and I know myself and so many other Edmonton fans believe in Dubnyk (of course there are doubters) but I think you really need to watch his game to appreciate what he is doing every night and see his raw talent level.
A poster mentioned the old goalies of Edmonton and what a great example. These goalies may be HHOF goalies, but let's face it, it was the team in front of them that scored 8 goals a night. These games were always high scoring affairs for the oilers, but their offence drowned out the opposition. And this is what needs to happen. Dubnyk may not be a Hasek or a Roy, but he is no slouch either. The team in front of him picks up their play and his performance won't be questioned. How many first overalls + first rounders are on this team??? How much offensive talent is in front of him that they STILL get shutout or only score a goal? It's insane and frustrating. The experience will help and them tasting how close they were to real playoff hockey this year will be even more motivation for them next year.
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Edited by - markliso on 04/10/2013 04:01:23 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2013 : 07:21:11
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Dubnyk is good for a weak goal a game. Some are his fault and other are not. Ultimately, I am not completely sold on Dubnyk being a legit #1 keeper but I far more sold on a guy over 130 NHL games compared to a guy with 40 NHL games with virtually the same numbers. Furthermore, I am more sold on a guy who has had the pressure of being the #1 for more than a season compared to a guy that has never been a #1.
Again, and I can't say it enough, the Oilers team design is to outscore the opponent. Their defense is a bend but not break group including the goalie. The Oilers live and die, today, with their special teams. They will move from a scrappy playoff contender to a playoff team when the figure out how to score 5 on 5. After that they will being a Cup contender by improving their defense.
Getting Ben Bishop does absolutely NOTHING to help the Oilers today nor tomorrow. An unproven player with potential is trumped by a proven player 6 ways to Sunday.
The Oilers are going to miss the playoffs this year. I have no reason to think they will win 7 or 8 of their last 9 games. But they are not missing the playoffs because of weak goaltending. They are missing the playoffs because Gagner/Hemsky/insert winger here have not maintained consistent production and the kids can't carry the entire load on their own. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2013 : 08:16:44
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All right, maybe I will clearify my comments some. I have watched a team who almost every other poster on this site dismissed for a playoff position, play a closed in style which didnt allow for a lot of offensive pressure. They had a hard time scoring goals due to losing the top 3 point producers go down to long term injury. So when they started going on a winning streak with Bishop and opened up the offense and shots for because they had a steady goalie behind them that gave them confidence like Bishop did. It showed in the goal differential, shot differential and winning percentage.
So looking at the Oilers team who plays in front of Dubnyk, I dont see that confidence when they have pressure in there own zone. I see the confidence when Habby is in net, but not for the #1 goalie in Edmonton, as some of you are referring to him as. At the time of the trade Bishop and Dubnyk had a similar save %, but Bishop had more wins, less losses, more overtime/shootout wins, in front of a weaker offensive team with playing in fewer games.
Come next year, what are the Oilers options? Resign a 40ish year old goalie, Habby, with a history of long term injuries or seek another veteran willing to get shell shock in Edmonton. If Dubnyk is the man I say go after a goalie like Bishop to push him for playing time and earn the #1. Dont default the #1 goalie position to him because you dont want to shatter his confidence. Make him prove he is the #1 or give another young goalie the shot to earn it from him. It can only help the Oilers not hurt them.
BTW, who was in the better position this year in the goaltender department Oilers - Senators. Why are people arguing against goaltender depth? |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2013 : 08:22:48
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| Btw, in no way did I say that Bishop would become the #1 goalie in Edmonton. I personally believe he is the better goalie, but only time will tell, as like others have said, he has a shorter resume, but his career stats are better. My only arguement is Edmonton lacks goaltender depth and when Habby goes down Dubnyk hasn't won the majority of the tight games and there is nobody pushing him for playing time or the #1 position. For years now, probably 3 or 4, the knock on Edmonton has been the lack of goaltender depth and there has been 0% effort to fix this. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2013 : 08:42:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Dubnyk is good for a weak goal a game. Some are his fault and other are not. Ultimately, I am not completely sold on Dubnyk being a legit #1 keeper but I far more sold on a guy over 130 NHL games compared to a guy with 40 NHL games with virtually the same numbers. Furthermore, I am more sold on a guy who has had the pressure of being the #1 for more than a season compared to a guy that has never been a #1.
Again, and I can't say it enough, the Oilers team design is to outscore the opponent. Their defense is a bend but not break group including the goalie. The Oilers live and die, today, with their special teams. They will move from a scrappy playoff contender to a playoff team when the figure out how to score 5 on 5. After that they will being a Cup contender by improving their defense.
Getting Ben Bishop does absolutely NOTHING to help the Oilers today nor tomorrow. An unproven player with potential is trumped by a proven player 6 ways to Sunday.
The Oilers are going to miss the playoffs this year. I have no reason to think they will win 7 or 8 of their last 9 games. But they are not missing the playoffs because of weak goaltending. They are missing the playoffs because Gagner/Hemsky/insert winger here have not maintained consistent production and the kids can't carry the entire load on their own.
Blaming Gagner is tough. The guy's been one of the most consistent Oilers all season. Sure, he's got a lot of power play points, but that leads me to my next issue. You continue to go on about the Oilers needing to score more 5 on 5 goals and how their d is just fine and how they're "built to outscore" the opposition. Sure, more 5 on 5 goals would help. What team wouldn't it really? But, is it really that important where/when the goals come? The Oilers have virtually the same goals for (total) as the Canucks on the season. Canucks have 101 and the Oilers 99, but the Canucks have 2 more empty netters. Pretty much the same. The Oilers have 13 more PP goals, the Canucks 16 more ES goals. The Oiler also have 4 shorties to the Canucks 0. Obviously the special teams in Edmonton have outperformed the Canucks. The difference to me is the Canucks simply have a better D. Again, THIS is where i think the Oilers need help. The forwards they have are too talented to not eventually score more at even strength. Also, it's quite possible that the D isn't contributing to the offense in both scoring goals AND creating them. Do they have the talent on D to make the breakout passes, to skate the puck out, etc. Basically, can they create from the back end like some other teams can?
Bottom line is this. I read somewhere that the Oilers are giving up more scoring chances than they did last year and that if they reduced their chances to last years rate, they quite possibly would be in the playoffs. There's obviously no proof to this, but less scoring chances against over a season will almost always result in less goals against which will mean more wins.
I still say the Oilers D is a big part of their problem. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2013 : 11:49:28
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The solution to this issue is simple.
Alex, you are wrong!
Seriously, you bring up a great point and it really could be defense. I don't agree, but it's a flip of the coin at this point.
You talk about the difference between the Oilers at the Canucks and noted the difference in scoring and it's validy. The point I am trying to make is that if all things are considered equal, even strength scoring is the problem. The Oilers PP and PK are both top 10 so there is no issue there. Traditionally speaking, good PK teams are usually good defensive teams. They allow less 2.64 goal against per game and score 2.53 goals per game.
Consider this, the difference between the Oilers and Canucks from a ES goal situation is 12 (60 vs 72) according to NHL.com/ The Oilers had 11 games where 1 goal made the difference between points. Assuming the Oilers would have won any OT game had they scored another goal and got at least points in any loss by one goal, the difference would have been 17 points. Not saying that happens every time but even 50% of those points is the difference between the Oilers in the comfortably in the playoffs or not.
My point is that without adding anything to the team, they SHOULD be scoring more even strength goals and competing at a higher level. They will need to improve their defense at some point to be legitimate contenders for the Cup. However, looking at the team they have today and adding no other players, they should not be one of the worst scoring teams. They should be one of the best. Top 5 or 10 for sure.
If they are in the top 10 of even strength scoring they are playoff team. Not a Cup contender, but a playoff team. At the same time, if the Oilers stop one more goal a game they are also a playoff team.
We can agree to disagree as long as you agree that am right!
*** Settle down all you people ready to rock an angry reply at me for being biased and argumentative. My comments towards Alex are a joke!** |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2013 : 13:09:03
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Fair enough, like i said, i don't discount the fact that the Oilers should be scoring more even strength goals. Why they aren't is a mystery with the talent they have.
My thoughts though are that the offense either:
1. Will begin to score more frequently as they're just too talented not to.
OR
2. Is being hampered by less than adequate defensemen who don't have the skill to assist in creating chances.
Sure, Schultz, Justin that is, is a good offensive dman who helps create. But even the best stay at home dmen contribute to their teams, be it outlet passes, battles along the boards, takeaways, etc. Anything that limits the chances and time spent in their own zone and/or helps create offensive opportunities at the other end. I just don't know if the Edmonton D does this enough?
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2013 : 13:49:41
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Fair enough Alex. The Oilers often spend the majority of the nights they lose in their own end and the defensive group does have a big responsibility in that. J Shultz and N Shultz have been strong (for the most part) although their numbers haven't showing it from a plus/minus side. They are playing a lot of minutes and are both the top offensive and top shutdown pairing. Smid has been a beast. Other than that, very inconsistent play has found the other defensemen.
I still don't think the issue is defensive but I am also not applauding this group. They do an average job and if that is all they got than the offensive side must be on fire to compete. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2013 : 10:34:33
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Beans , why do you say that Bishop can`t do anything for the Oilers now or in the future ?? What kind of statement is that ??
Next season the Oilers will have only Duby...why on earth wouldn`t you want a 2nd goalie like Bishop ?? I wish the leafs would have picked him up. Even if he never steals Reimers job...at least you have backup and unlimited potential in net.
I watched this guy play on a injury riddled team, a team with their top players out of the lineup and he stole GAMES for Ottawa, this guy is good and any team would be blessed to have him.
Answer this question for me ??
How many games has Ottawa won since the Bishop trade ??
What are they ?? 0 and 5 or something
How`s TB doing since aquiring Bishop ?? |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2013 : 10:40:00
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ps : i`ve always believed that goal-tending isn`t just part of the equation......
Goal-tending is EVERYTHING !!!
Whats NJ`s record this season ??
With Brodeur in the line-up ?
Brodeur out of the line-up ?
Whats the Hurricane`s record this season ??
With Ward in the line-up ?
Ward out of the line-up ?
I`m not sure, but would be interesting results i bet. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2013 : 11:18:47
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Umm, it's an accurate statement. If the Oilers have the same player in Dubnyk as Bishop is, why would they want to start a goaltending controversy?? It's a dumb move. More importantly, what would they have had to give up to get him?? More than what the Oilers can afford to give at this time.
Secondly, you're 5 game samples are simply dumb. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but if you are seriously making a comment like "What's NJ's record this season" and eluding to Brodeur being a poor goaltender, again, it's dumb. The guy has more wins than any player in who has every played his position.
By the way, you might want to check out NJ's offensive and defensive stats before making this outrageous claims. NJ has a very respectable 2.6 goal against per game and the best PK in the league. Perhaps the reason NJ is losing is there offense is morbid and during their current 8 game losing streak they have scored a grand total of 16 goals. Most teams averaging 2 or fewer goals a game are going to lose more than they win. You might also want to notice that of those 8 games, 4 were either OT or SO losses.
How do you know that it's not Brodeur keeping them in those games???
You might be right, goaltending might be the most important thing, but goalies don't score. You can't win a game by simply keeping the puck out of the net, you ahve to put the puck in the net too! |
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Oilers sliding.... 
