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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  08:20:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Beans,

Looking through this thread earlier, I heard you think the Oilers are looking for an energy, third line guy who can score the odd goal . . .

. . . I hear Grabovski is still available on the free market!

Man, I would love you to go through the same progression I went through with him . . . because you are right, those earlier thread comments on his contract - one where I was eventually swayed as to his fairly substantial overpayment - were bang on to what my opinion WAS at the time. Energy guy, super motivated, put in 110% every shift, had skill and could score. AND, at the time, I thought it was HIM that gave Kulemin that 30 goal season from heaven . . . and I actually thought he was a good defensive player.

Unfortunately, these are the mistakes and misconceptions that result sometimes from a player on a NON-PLAYOFF TEAM with very little DEFENSIVE RESPONSIBILITY. Once on a playoff team . . . Grabo suddenly wasn't the second best player on the team. In fact, he wasn't 4th or 5th or even 6th. On the Leafs playoff team f last year . . . Grabovski was MUCH worse than the much-maligned Tyler Bozak. And this is going by play, not these reality-skewing advanced stats on player opposition rating, etc . . .

I desperately want your Oilers to Gabo, Beans. Then you can see for yourself . . . first year love on a non-playoff team will turn into 4th and 5th year bitterness when your team makes the playoffs finally.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  09:55:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's an interesting point Slozo. People don't often think about the difference of a player on a playoff team vs a non-playoff team. I would not have an issue if the Oilers picked up Grabovski for a reasonable salary. $3million/season or less is about right. I think he is a very good 3rd line centre and would be an asset to any team.

My question to you Slozo is this: Was Grabovski such a bad player that he was actually hurting the Leafs or was it simply that he was overpaid and the money he was getting was better used in other areas???

Maybe said a bit differently: If Grabovski is making $3 million rather than $5.5 million, is he still a Leaf???

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  10:15:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mark Fraser re-signed - avoiding arbitration - with the Leafs for 1.25 million.

Certainly might be seen as an overpayment by others for a 6th or 7th defenceman "depth" guy . . . but he is a depth guy who performed amazingly under Carlyle, is already familiar with the system, and he was a total warrior and fan favourite.

For me, I am just happy for him that he could recover from such a horrific head injury/cracked skull to come back and play pro hockey again . . . hope for the Leafs he can be back in last year's form, but as a human being, just happy for him that he is ok and good to go back on the ice again.

Bottom line for Leafs - Liles is a very good bet to be dealt, and it's possible a team pays a bit for him with the hefty price tag. Franson is a possibility to have his rights dealt . . . but that's just because he hasn't been re-signed yet, which I think will happen.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  10:21:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

That's an interesting point Slozo. People don't often think about the difference of a player on a playoff team vs a non-playoff team. I would not have an issue if the Oilers picked up Grabovski for a reasonable salary. $3million/season or less is about right. I think he is a very good 3rd line centre and would be an asset to any team.

My question to you Slozo is this: Was Grabovski such a bad player that he was actually hurting the Leafs or was it simply that he was overpaid and the money he was getting was better used in other areas???

Maybe said a bit differently: If Grabovski is making $3 million rather than $5.5 million, is he still a Leaf???

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





If Grabovski was making 4 mil/year, up to 4.5, (to re-sign him at 3 mil would have been impossible, let's be realistic here) the Leafs would have dealt him and gotten something reasonably valuable back.

Bottom line is, Carlyle would have asked Nonis to move him, no matter what. He was third centre on the depth chart; he wasn't a defensively responsible OR productive player under Carlyle's system; he wasn't an effective checker either. All Grabo was good for last year was being on the wrong side of highlight-reel bodychecks where he got right back up.

Carlyle and Nonis have showed us already they didn't care about what the salary was the player was making . . . it was all about who helps this team more, who is the better player.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  11:03:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So this is interesting. Not trying to put words into your mouth only trying to clarify. The issue was not Grabovksi being a poor player, the issue was he was over paid making him unmovable and that the players was not right for the system.

Is that not saying that the player is actually not the issue?? The contract is the issue and the system the team employs is the issue. Grabovksi, in the right system, it a valuable player to the team depending on the salary.

Am I hear that properly???

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



716 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  11:19:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's what I heard too and I agree.

Grabovski, with a good contract, and in a system that would suit his play would be valuable to a team.

Grabovski is still a good player, he was simply overpaid and not fitting into Carlyle's system.

These are the same reasons that Connolly didn't play for the Leafs last season and that MacArthur wasn't resign. Nonis and Carlyle are stamping there names all over that team.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  14:16:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't see Edmonton putting an offer sheet to Grabo, as they have 3 decent centerman they are familiar with in Gagner, Ryan-Nugent Hopkins and Boyd Gordon. I also don't see Grabo signing for 3 million unless it is a 1 year deal, so he can prove his worth is at or near his last contract value, to then resign at a higher amount next year. Does he play winger as well as center?

All I have heard to this point is that he is on the right team a top 6 player, but played out of the top 6 by Bozak and Kadri. Having watched him play I don't understand why he was played out of position, outside of him not having chemistry with Kessel, Kadri playing better on the 2nd line and Bozak being the player Kessel has the best chemistry with. You would think if he was versatile enough for winger he would have been more tradable.

I still think a team like Washington, Winnepeg, Vancouver or NYI will offer him a short term contract.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  17:18:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Changing tunes a bit here.....

Offer sheets? Not that we ever really saw a lot of them, but they seem to be a thing of the past. There's a few really good RFA's out there who no one seems to wanna touch. Is it cap related, where teams are afraid of high priced deals? I keep hearing people curse owners for high priced contracts, yet no one seems to be throwing them at any of these young potential studs. A few that i know are available are Kadri, Hodgson, Stepan and Pietrangelo. There's lots of lesser knowns, including Chris Tanev here in Vancouver. The media here has been quite surprised that no team has tried to handcuff the Canucks by making him and offer. With the Canucks in a tight cap spot, it could make things tough for them to match! I guess GM's don't wanna piss off other GM's???
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2013 :  19:24:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans , i`m sure some team will take a chance on Grabovski somewhere down the road. He was over-paid and the leafs needed cap space to sign other players. BUT, his salary ( i think ) was only part of the problem.

Grabovski, beats to his own drum, in my eyes anyway. He is a darn hard worker but doesn`t seem to get involved in the play with his linemates has a unit......once he has control of the puck he just plays with his head down, ( no vision of his linemates at all ) and usually receives a thunderous check which sends him flying.......this guy gets NAILED HARD each and every night, i`m not kidding.....i don`t know how he constantly gets up after being crushed so often, its amazing....one thing is for certain, he definitely is a very tough individual.

You don`t hear too many players say the things he said after the leafs brought him out. Even if some of his rantings were right, NHL players normally don`t speak in this manner....i guess Grabovski is not your typical normal NHL player.
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



716 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  07:16:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Grabovski is awesome 4 on 4 (in OT) He controls the puck and has the confidence that he can bring the puck to the net every time he touches it due to the extra room on the ice.

As for off season stuff. Can't wait for Toronto to sign Franson and Kadri. In order to do that they probably need to get rid of Liles. If Nonis can do that and then add a third or fourth line winger. I'll be a happy Leaf fan.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  08:35:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Generally speaking, most teams are trading for the rights to a RFA rather than putting forth offer sheets. Losing high draft picks + being the highest bidder, usually an overpay for the player, in order for the team which owns the players rights, to not be able to match, doesn't sound like a smart business plan. Your right about the respect thing as well. I know Burke and Lowe spared openly with regards to RFA offer sheets.

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Changing tunes a bit here.....

Offer sheets? Not that we ever really saw a lot of them, but they seem to be a thing of the past. There's a few really good RFA's out there who no one seems to wanna touch. Is it cap related, where teams are afraid of high priced deals? I keep hearing people curse owners for high priced contracts, yet no one seems to be throwing them at any of these young potential studs. A few that i know are available are Kadri, Hodgson, Stepan and Pietrangelo. There's lots of lesser knowns, including Chris Tanev here in Vancouver. The media here has been quite surprised that no team has tried to handcuff the Canucks by making him and offer. With the Canucks in a tight cap spot, it could make things tough for them to match! I guess GM's don't wanna piss off other GM's???



"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2013 :  09:06:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Beans , i`m sure some team will take a chance on Grabovski somewhere down the road. He was over-paid and the leafs needed cap space to sign other players. BUT, his salary ( i think ) was only part of the problem.

Grabovski, beats to his own drum, in my eyes anyway. He is a darn hard worker but doesn`t seem to get involved in the play with his linemates has a unit......once he has control of the puck he just plays with his head down, ( no vision of his linemates at all ) and usually receives a thunderous check which sends him flying.......this guy gets NAILED HARD each and every night, i`m not kidding.....i don`t know how he constantly gets up after being crushed so often, its amazing....one thing is for certain, he definitely is a very tough individual.

You don`t hear too many players say the things he said after the leafs brought him out. Even if some of his rantings were right, NHL players normally don`t speak in this manner....i guess Grabovski is not your typical normal NHL player.



I get what you are saying about his head down and on the receiving end of a hard check thing, but as far as no vision for offensive plays, I don't know if I agree. I will agree his comments were harsh, but after his signing, how he perceived he was misused and his name dragged thru the media, because of his demotion, I would be surprised if he wasn't a little pissed off. I bet if you talk to most of the players who felt they were being played lower depth wise, bought out and/or players dropped in the minors to clear cap space, who clearly didn't belong there, they might have things to say just as harsh as Grabo did. Difference is in Toronto hockey talk is huge news.

I wonder how Redden felt, being a capable top 4 defenseman, but playing in the minors because of his elephant of a contract, until the team figured out what to do with his contract. Dragging his name thru the mud, dropping to the minors at the age of 33 when he was still an NHL caliber defenseman, have severely damaged his career, yet I never heard him complain, but had he been harsh on the Rangers, I would have understood. I understand his play was declining and he had one of the worst signed contracts in the NHL, but he was better than a minor league player. At one point the Rangers were going to have him sit at home for the entire year, not playing any hockey at all so they could buy him out at the end of the year. At 1 point a few years ago Redden considered retiring, because that would be the easiest way to deal with his predicament. The NHL changed the rules for early buyouts, so that Redden could then seek employment. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if someone somewhere heard a negative comment from Redden with regards to management in New York.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2013 :  09:25:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Beans , i`m sure some team will take a chance on Grabovski somewhere down the road. He was over-paid and the leafs needed cap space to sign other players. BUT, his salary ( i think ) was only part of the problem.

Grabovski, beats to his own drum, in my eyes anyway. He is a darn hard worker but doesn`t seem to get involved in the play with his linemates has a unit......once he has control of the puck he just plays with his head down, ( no vision of his linemates at all ) and usually receives a thunderous check which sends him flying.......this guy gets NAILED HARD each and every night, i`m not kidding.....i don`t know how he constantly gets up after being crushed so often, its amazing....one thing is for certain, he definitely is a very tough individual.

You don`t hear too many players say the things he said after the leafs brought him out. Even if some of his rantings were right, NHL players normally don`t speak in this manner....i guess Grabovski is not your typical normal NHL player.



I get what you are saying about his head down and on the receiving end of a hard check thing, but as far as no vision for offensive plays, I don't know if I agree. I will agree his comments were harsh, but after his signing, how he perceived he was misused and his name dragged thru the media, because of his demotion, I would be surprised if he wasn't a little pissed off. I bet if you talk to most of the players who felt they were being played lower depth wise, bought out and/or players dropped in the minors to clear cap space, who clearly didn't belong there, they might have things to say just as harsh as Grabo did. Difference is in Toronto hockey talk is huge news.

I wonder how Redden felt, being a capable top 4 defenseman, but playing in the minors because of his elephant of a contract, until the team figured out what to do with his contract. Dragging his name thru the mud, dropping to the minors at the age of 33 when he was still an NHL caliber defenseman, have severely damaged his career, yet I never heard him complain, but had he been harsh on the Rangers, I would have understood. I understand his play was declining and he had one of the worst signed contracts in the NHL, but he was better than a minor league player. At one point the Rangers were going to have him sit at home for the entire year, not playing any hockey at all so they could buy him out at the end of the year. At 1 point a few years ago Redden considered retiring, because that would be the easiest way to deal with his predicament. The NHL changed the rules for early buyouts, so that Redden could then seek employment. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if someone somewhere heard a negative comment from Redden with regards to management in New York.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



You answered your own question though bud.

Redden was a totally CLASS act, it's why he was such a leader back in the day on Ottawa. And please don't say Ottawa media would have missed it if he HAD complained/griped/etc . . . especially after being let go by the team. It would have been front page news, never mind something epic like Grabo's rant.

Forget Grabovski getting SLIGHTLY less minutes and playing a SLIGHTLY reduced role WHILE SUCKING . . . talk about Mike Komisarek, another "overpaid big contract" Leafer. He was in the pressbox, etc . . . and what did we har from him - during and after his tenure?

Nothing. And after he left, nothing but classy, nice things to say. He was a true pro, and he got it - he WASN'T good enough, it was a FAIR assessment, and it is what it is.

Epic rants after you have severely underperformed only come from idiot, selfish players. Full stop.


"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2013 :  10:29:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, I think we need to remember a few things. Firstly, Ottawa did not drop Redden. Redden left on his own accord after being offered a very good deal by Ottawa. He lefted for more money. No other way to look at it.

Secondly, I would completely agree with Slozo's comments if Grabovski had said the things he said while still a member of the Leafs. But after being dropped like a sack of hammers, I don't fault him for being upset. Now, I do think he went off the rails and said more than he should have said. But I don't think there is an issue at all if he felt he was disrespected by the team that he committed to for years.

I think the idiot, selfish player comments are way off side. Especially considering your feeling on this player in the past. There is no doubt that he did not fit in Carlyle's system. But to see a player that had a significant change to their role on the team based on the coach be upset is not unreasonable. Your idea of a SLIGHT change in role and time on ice is simply not true. You are talking about a player that went from the 2nd highest centre for ice time with 19:21 and most ice time on the PP at 3:08 2 seasons ago to a player averaging 15:34 total and 1:42 on the PP this past year. He went from #2 pushing #1 to #3 and barely above #4.

He went from the man to a garbage can in no time at all. I'd be pissed too. He went through that for the 2 years he saw his time on ice and role erode and said NOTHING negative at all. Nothing. Then, after he gets basically told that he went from being an important part of the plan to no longer in the plan and he throws some shots at the guy responsible for that??

Nope, nothing idiotic or selfish about that.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!


Edited by - Beans15 on 08/01/2013 10:48:59
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2013 :  13:14:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pretty much agree with everything said Beans. I also don't think Grabo stank, but was put in a role which was hard to succeed while they expected results like at his prior level. I actually would have liked it had he been vocal about the demotion while a part of the Leafs, but with less disrespect and seeing how he was trashed, which could potentially hurt his career after the leafs, think a little trash talk back to the coach and team which trashed him was justified.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2013 :  18:31:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK Joshua, you think Garbo`s remarks were justified.

Do you think that Grabovski is the only player who got brought out ?....he got paid well for the buy-out.....you say Grab got trashed ??...how ??...how did Grabovski get trashed compared to the other NHL players who got brought out ??......Did you hear the leafs management say anything BAD in the media regarding Grabovski ?? .....anything personal.....i sure didn`t.

Grabovski received the same treatment as ALL OTHER NHL PLAYERS WHO GOT BROUGHT OUT !!!!!!.....why did Grabovski get trashed and the rest of the buy-outs never ??......whats your explanation for this comment ??

The only difference in Grabovski and the other buy-outs was that Grabovski did an interview and showed his true colors in public.......how come the other buy-outs didn`t do what Grabovski did ??....i`ll answer this question for you......

The other buy-out players have class, they have always been classy players....they are not IDIOTS like Grabovski.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2013 :  18:42:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Leafs 81....no doubt the leafs have to do something if they plan to re-sign kadri and Franson....they only have around 5 million left in cap space, no way they sign both these players with that.

Someone will have to move. Wonder what Nonis is going to do ?.....I really like Franson, i think his best years are about to come. Kadri also shows flashes of stardom.

Gunnarson just signed for approx. 3 million per season, i think Franson is worth more. Wonder what he is looking for ?

About Grabovski in OT.....i wonder how many OT goals he had with the leafs ??
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  07:23:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Well, I think we need to remember a few things. Firstly, Ottawa did not drop Redden. Redden left on his own accord after being offered a very good deal by Ottawa. He lefted for more money. No other way to look at it.

Secondly, I would completely agree with Slozo's comments if Grabovski had said the things he said while still a member of the Leafs. But after being dropped like a sack of hammers, I don't fault him for being upset. Now, I do think he went off the rails and said more than he should have said. But I don't think there is an issue at all if he felt he was disrespected by the team that he committed to for years.

I think the idiot, selfish player comments are way off side. Especially considering your feeling on this player in the past. There is no doubt that he did not fit in Carlyle's system. But to see a player that had a significant change to their role on the team based on the coach be upset is not unreasonable. Your idea of a SLIGHT change in role and time on ice is simply not true. You are talking about a player that went from the 2nd highest centre for ice time with 19:21 and most ice time on the PP at 3:08 2 seasons ago to a player averaging 15:34 total and 1:42 on the PP this past year. He went from #2 pushing #1 to #3 and barely above #4.

He went from the man to a garbage can in no time at all. I'd be pissed too. He went through that for the 2 years he saw his time on ice and role erode and said NOTHING negative at all. Nothing. Then, after he gets basically told that he went from being an important part of the plan to no longer in the plan and he throws some shots at the guy responsible for that??

Nope, nothing idiotic or selfish about that.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





What I thought about Grabovski before his comments has nothing to do whatsoever with how I took his comments to be WAY outside the realm of being a professional, and of having any kind of team player attitude.

Frankly, I never commented on Grabovski's attitude other than he gave 110% every shift . . . BEFORE this past half-season. I was not impressed at all with his attitude this past half season, but may not have commented here on it.

I find it absolutely hilarious that you hold this incredible double standard Beans . . . just because it's Leaf fans talking about a selfish player who we admittedly talked about in glowing terms earlier because of his PAST EFFORTS ON THE ICE. But his selfish and idiotic ways DID translate onto the ice big time this past year . . . the effort was NOT always there; his performance was DIRT POOR - which is why he was SLIGHTLY demoted in terms of ice time, btw, and why he lost his second line status to Kadri.

And then he ends it all off with a brutal tirade blaming everyone BUT himself for his poor numbers.

How can you look at his comments and call them anything BUT selfish? I am totally perplexed at how anyone can logic-twist that pretzel style into some genuine gripe . . . and clearly, you don't realise that Grabovski did, indeed, have rumblings and gripes along the way, oh yes sir I can assure you of that.

Grabovski had years previous been a tireless worker, and heart and soul player.
Grabovski played badly this last season.
He lost ice time as a result.
He didn't embrace his new role and grumbled about it.
He was bought out, then went on an epic tirade, blaming the coaching staff and management for his poor play.



"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  07:36:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

So this is interesting. Not trying to put words into your mouth only trying to clarify. The issue was not Grabovksi being a poor player, the issue was he was over paid making him unmovable and that the players was not right for the system.

Is that not saying that the player is actually not the issue?? The contract is the issue and the system the team employs is the issue. Grabovksi, in the right system, it a valuable player to the team depending on the salary.

Am I hear that properly???

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





And to clarify,

NO, you did NOT hear that properly.
Look at my words:

GRABOVSKI PLAYED POORLY.

Beans, do you really think an NHL coach, a seasoned pro like Carlyle, will gradually decrease a player's minutes because they are playing WELL?

I hope you can "interpret" my words well, hope that you can decipher it. Hope you can hear it properly.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  07:48:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess you guys would have preferred he smile for the cameras and give the same non answer, hockey talk most players do, when faced with the media. I for one liked that he showed the 110% spirit moving out of Toronto, in the face of a bad buyout, rather than him smile move on and take it. If you don't think he was rode hard by fans, media and management in Toronto last year, then how come we have talked so much about him since last winter. Again, I hope he signs elsewhere and succeeds, so that those who thought he was buyout material look back with regret.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  08:57:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
IMO, he'd have to put up 25G/65pts to be considered a "bad buyout" for the money he was making! He's had 25+G once but never even 60pts. Unless he puts up those numbers somewhere, i don't think Toronto will regret anything except overpaying him in the first place!!!
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  09:15:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I guess you guys would have preferred he smile for the cameras and give the same non answer, hockey talk most players do, when faced with the media. I for one liked that he showed the 110% spirit moving out of Toronto, in the face of a bad buyout, rather than him smile move on and take it. If you don't think he was rode hard by fans, media and management in Toronto last year, then how come we have talked so much about him since last winter. Again, I hope he signs elsewhere and succeeds, so that those who thought he was buyout material look back with regret.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



I am talking to a wall I guess.

SEE MIKE KOMISAREK'S INTERVIEWS AND COMMENTS AFTER LEAVING THE LEAFS.

That was a guy signed to a big contract, never panned out, but NEVER blamed anyone but himself and was always a pro.

Grabovski will only succeed on a non-playoff team with zero defensive responsibilities. It took me several years to understand this, but I get it now.

I don't care what answers he gives, OTHER THAN him giving out blame to everyone but himself, and conducting himself unprofessionally. THAT, I will not stand for.


"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  09:18:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

IMO, he'd have to put up 25G/65pts to be considered a "bad buyout" for the money he was making! He's had 25+G once but never even 60pts. Unless he puts up those numbers somewhere, i don't think Toronto will regret anything except overpaying him in the first place!!!



Agreed Alex - with the HUGE caveat of,
25g/65 pts on a CONTENDING PLAYOFF TEAM.

That's a big part of it . . . on a team of floaters with no team defence structure (the Wilson years), Grabo excelled, and put up career numbers. The Leafs finally develop into a solid playoff team with a decent defensive structure? His stats dive into oblivion.



"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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The Duke
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Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  09:45:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua, i don`t know what else to say to you about this Grab. thing.

Again you say....A BAD BUY OUT by the leafs ???.....what does this mean ?.....was Daniel . B ....a bad buy out for the Flyers ??.....was Vinny. Lec ..a bad buy out for Tampa ??.......both these players under-performed last season ( numbers, stats, etc...)......these players were in the exact same boat as Grabovski.... ..........they were making wayyyy toooo much $$$$$ for their production......their play has deminished.

Did you see Daniel or Vinny shoot their mouths off like Grabovski ??......i don`t think so.

To answer you question as to why we were talking about Grabovski all last season ??.......heres your answer...........Grabovski was the highest paid leaf forward last season but was putting up 3rd line center numbers.....Grabovski DID NOT GET DEMOTED SUDDENLY.......THIS HAPPENED OVER OVER THE COURSE OF 2 SEASONS !!!!......Grabovski had every opportunity to keep his 2nd line center job.......HE JUST COULDN`t KEEP IT.....so....he got demoted to the 3rd line......because Toronto had 2 centers who were playing better than Grabovski......its called team concept....

Grabovski couldn`t accept this fact and starting blaming every1 in the leafs organization for his downfall....except himself.....

Joshua, you are wrong about leaf fans treatment of Grabovski.....he was always a fan favorite if anything.

You call the way he left TO spirit ??...of course he never had to smile for the cameras, wouldn`t you be upset if you just lost your job ?......that doesn`t mean he had to curse down everything in Toronto but the CN Tower either......did you actually hear his comments ??...what a moron.

Grabovski.......some things that come to mind.....his cursing out of course......fighting with his team-mates in Montreal ( of course that was their fault )......fighting in a bar, in Van. i think ??.......oh, lets not forget the ear biting ( he is also Mike Tyson you know )......yeah, Toronto will surely miss this guy.
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  11:31:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I guess you guys would have preferred he smile for the cameras and give the same non answer, hockey talk most players do, when faced with the media. I for one liked that he showed the 110% spirit moving out of Toronto, in the face of a bad buyout, rather than him smile move on and take it. If you don't think he was rode hard by fans, media and management in Toronto last year, then how come we have talked so much about him since last winter. Again, I hope he signs elsewhere and succeeds, so that those who thought he was buyout material look back with regret.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



I am talking to a wall I guess.

SEE MIKE KOMISAREK'S INTERVIEWS AND COMMENTS AFTER LEAVING THE LEAFS.

That was a guy signed to a big contract, never panned out, but NEVER blamed anyone but himself and was always a pro.

Grabovski will only succeed on a non-playoff team with zero defensive responsibilities. It took me several years to understand this, but I get it now.

I don't care what answers he gives, OTHER THAN him giving out blame to everyone but himself, and conducting himself unprofessionally. THAT, I will not stand for.


"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

I guess if you want to compare him to a complete failure, who was given all the opportunity in the world to succeed and completely earned his buyout to a player who earned his contract and got demoted due to rising talent behind him, ok. If Komisarek said anything, but thanks for the paycheck, he would have earned a backlash too. There is a distinct difference between the 2. Grabo bashed the coach who misused him after no longer being an employee, but still being a valuable player. Not so hard to understand the differences, or the how's and why's.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  11:32:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

IMO, he'd have to put up 25G/65pts to be considered a "bad buyout" for the money he was making! He's had 25+G once but never even 60pts. Unless he puts up those numbers somewhere, i don't think Toronto will regret anything except overpaying him in the first place!!!



Agreed Alex - with the HUGE caveat of,
25g/65 pts on a CONTENDING PLAYOFF TEAM.

That's a big part of it . . . on a team of floaters with no team defence structure (the Wilson years), Grabo excelled, and put up career numbers. The Leafs finally develop into a solid playoff team with a decent defensive structure? His stats dive into oblivion.



"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

On the 3rd line with a lessor reduced role and linemates.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  11:45:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke


Again you say....A BAD BUY OUT by the leafs ???.....what does this mean ?.....was Daniel . B ....a bad buy out for the Flyers ??

Cap decision, not that Briere couldn't find work elsewhere for similar pay. Buyout made sense with regards to cap.

.....was Vinny. Lec ..a bad buy out for Tampa ??

Vinny's contract was an overpay and for an extremely long time. Tampa in a cash poor position had little choice. Side note, Tampa tried to trade him to another team, to have them exercise a buyout and then to pick him back up at a reduced cost and term. Doesn't sound like Tampa thought the player was bad just the contract, so why would Lecavalier complain.

.......both these players under-performed last season ( numbers, stats, etc...)......these players were in the exact same boat as Grabovski.... ..........they were making wayyyy toooo much $$$$$ for their production......their play has deminished.

Difference between these players is they didn't receive a reduce role due to coaching changes and both had injury history which impacted there performance.

Did you see Daniel or Vinny shoot their mouths off like Grabovski ??......i don`t think so.

Was either disrespected, they way Grabo had been (Demotion, media, fans) Had they been, they might have gone Avery on the neariest microphone they could find.

To answer you question as to why we were talking about Grabovski all last season ??.......heres your answer...........Grabovski was the highest paid leaf forward last season but was putting up 3rd line center numbers.

Again, playing on the 3rd line in a checking role with 3rd line minutes and linemates

....Grabovski DID NOT GET DEMOTED SUDDENLY.......THIS HAPPENED OVER OVER THE COURSE OF 2 SEASONS !!!!......Grabovski had every opportunity to keep his 2nd line center job.......HE JUST COULDN`t KEEP IT.....so....he got demoted to the 3rd line......because Toronto had 2 centers who were playing better than Grabovski......its called team concept....

Grabovski couldn`t accept this fact and starting blaming every1 in the leafs organization for his downfall....except himself.....

Joshua, you are wrong about leaf fans treatment of Grabovski.....he was always a fan favorite if anything.

Until last season, then he was the be all and end all of what was wrong in Toronto!

You call the way he left TO spirit ??...of course he never had to smile for the cameras, wouldn`t you be upset if you just lost your job ?......that doesn`t mean he had to curse down everything in Toronto but the CN Tower either......did you actually hear his comments ??...what a moron.

Did you know this happened days before his wedding. Heard this today and will try to substantiate this with an article to support it.

Grabovski.......some things that come to mind.....his cursing out of course......fighting with his team-mates in Montreal ( of course that was their fault )......fighting in a bar, in Van. i think ??.......oh, lets not forget the ear biting ( he is also Mike Tyson you know )......yeah, Toronto will surely miss this guy.

You might if say Washington NYI picks this guy up and he goes on to fufill his potential. He is a PP specialist, Top 6 player, a centerman with 25 goal, 60+ point potential and in the words of MacT with regards to Hemsky, whos is a winger with similar stats historically, "hard to find or replace."



"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 08/02/2013 11:51:54
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  12:04:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Whats funny is I am defending a player I would care less about in most circumstances. I didn't much pay attention to him when Leafs fans were defending him 2 years ago and he was amassing decent point totals in the top 6. I only started to pay attention to him when the bashing began from leafs fans and I looked deeper at him to find out what all the fuss was about. To be honest, if I thought he had been treated fairly I would shut my mouth, but the piling on he has gotten thick since the emergence of Kadri in the top 6, and it has been overwhelming. I actually started routing for the underdog. Hopefully he catches on somewhere else and continues his career in a better environment.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  12:07:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slozo, again, I would agree with you if the fact were straight. If you look in detail at the decline of Grabovski it started almost immediately after Carlyle arrived. Look if you don't believe me. His production nearly stopped as soon as his minutes started dropping and those minutes started dropped as soon as Carlyle arrived.

I am not saying I completed agree with Grabovski's actions. But, I don't fault him for being pissed and I do think Carlyle has a lot more to do with this than you are letting on. I can't say how much, but I do know that Grabovski's stats at nearly .4PPG as a 3rd/4th line centre would put him near the top of the league's 3rd line centres. I can also very easily agree that Kadri and Bozak both outplayed Grabovski and deserved the ice time. But I think it's very short sighted to say that any player coming off back to back seasons in the 0.8PPG range wouldn't see a production drop after losing minutes nor would be it unreasonable to think that player could not also return to that form.


Finally, your comments about playoff contending team are easily the biggest stretch of this argument. The Leafs WERE a playoff team in 2011/2012 until the last 20 games of the season. In fact, they were in a better position that season then they were this last season. Are you saying that Grabovski wasn't playing well when the Leafs were in contention for a playoff spot and then stepped up his game when the Leafs completely tanked to end that season??


C'mon dude. This is nothing more than a case of a pissed off fan for a former player talking crap. Nothing more/nothing less.





Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2013 :  12:11:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

IMO, he'd have to put up 25G/65pts to be considered a "bad buyout" for the money he was making! He's had 25+G once but never even 60pts. Unless he puts up those numbers somewhere, i don't think Toronto will regret anything except overpaying him in the first place!!!

I might refer more to this being a poorly timed buyout, being that it was the 1st year of the contract signed by prior management and coaching. The fact that he was expected to perform at the same level in a reduced role, linemates and TOI. I think numbers wise it was an overpay by 1-1.5 million per year, but Toronto fans didn't complain about the signing, they actually defended it. Then again, had he continued to play in the top 6 as Toronto improved, maybe he would have had a career year in place of Kadri.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
389 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2013 :  12:51:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i didn't want to get into this whole grabo thing again...especially since it has its own thread...... but i dont care that he was demoted. his production stunk!!!. Kadri was on the third line at the begining of the season and tore it up and bumped him dow. at the begining of the season kadri was earning less ice time than grabo and scoring more points. (using the same lines mates that grobo did when he got demoted) say his production slipped because of this demotion is stupid. if kadri could do it why couldnt the guy that people are saying is better than kadri do it??? at one point kadri had the most points in the league for someone getting third line minutes. after this was on tsn and sportsnet he started getting second line minutes. ...... grabo did it to himself. and don't give me this oh he had a medical condition. quite frankly if you can't gice 100% you shouldnt be telling the coach your good to go. tell the coach the ruth sit it out get health and then come back. this guy is as selfish as they come on and off the ice. i am glad grabo is gone!
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2013 :  10:10:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well said Mandree......that about sums it up'

Joshua, we can debate this until we are blue in the face

I just don`t agree with the things you post...sorry

You just posted.......Grabovski was expected to perform at the same level in a reduced role........thats not right Joshua, this statement is untrue.......the fact of the matter was......Grabovski was expected to perform as a second line center, which was his position for many, many. many months........Grabovski couldn`t perform as a 2nd line center, this was what was expected of him.....and he didn`t deliver...so he got demoted.

You can`t say he was expected to perform after his demotion.....this is not right.......he was expected to perform before his demotion.

As for no leaf fans complaining about his contract signing ( 5.5 million for 5 years ) i don`t know where you get that information ??.....maybe you didn`t hear anything on TSN but i will tell that most all my leaf fan friends thought it was wayyyy too much for him at the time, and they were right.......

I think that GM`s are weary of signing Grabovski because he seems like he may be the kind of player who is a cancer to the dressing room.......i don`t think its a monetary issue or work ethic thing at all......If Grabovski is seeking future NHL employment, he may be well advised to just keep his mouth shut........Seems like no matter where he plays, trouble follows.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2013 :  09:09:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cancer in the dressing room? Where were these comments prior to his buyout, with reference to his days in Toronto. The bashing of Grabo is thick, very thick indeed. No wonder he was very vocal, post buyout.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2013 :  11:09:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The cancer in the dressing room comments were in the same place the selfish idiot player comments were. They didn't exist.

It's simply amazing how quickly a player falls out of favour in Toronto. This guy when from being a great signing at $5.5 million/season and a gritty player who was great at both ends of the ice to a selfish idiot who was a cancer in the dressing room.

Players get outplayed everyday and on every team. It happens. It's doesn't mean player A is all of a sudden a bag of crap because player B stepped up their game.

Unless these players have Leafs on their shirts. If that is the case, Player A becomes a sack of hammers.

Funny.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
389 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2013 :  11:26:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
just want to point out no one said he was a cancer in the locker room.... duke said that is what HE thinks this is the reason the GMs MIGHT be weary of him..........
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2013 :  13:28:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The word is 'wary', and the cancer thing dates back to his short stint with the Habs. There was much consternation in the TO press, due to his teammates' dislike of him. If I recall correctly, though, he won the hearts of Leafs' fans with his often reckless physical play vs. the Canadiens.

Having played in only these markets, Grabovski has been under microscope his entire career, and may thrive in a smaller hockey city. Unfortunately for him, owing to the circumstances surrounding leaving each team, the red flag is up.

Such a drag for him, having so much potential. The media may have set him on a bad course, but he didn't do himself any favors with his recent comments.

Not sure if I would want him with the Oil, but I am leaning towards 'not'. Seems like a reclamation project, and we are done with those for now.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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The Duke
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Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2013 :  17:39:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans, its amazing how good you are at just tweaking a persons post so it shines a light in a diffrent direction than what the post ACTUALLY sez..

No-one didn`t call Grabovski a selfish idiot ( or whatever was said ) before his lash out interview.......do you think that maybe this is why these comments didn`t exist before ??

I DID NOT sat he IS A CANCER in the dressing room.....YOU SAID that i posted that he is a cancer in the dressing room......!!!!..........i merely posted that it seems like HE MAY BE a cancer in the dressing room and MAYBE thats the reason why HE IS NOT SIGNED BY A GM...

You are good though at rephrasing these comments, i`ll give you that.

If Grabovski is so great at either end of the ice ( as you put it ).....other than the reason which i think may be valid......

Why don`t you explain to every1 why Grabovski is not signed ??....you just posted that he is great at either end of the ice.... wouldn`t you think that teams would be fighting over a player like you just described ??.........UFA signings have taught us that $$$$ is certainly not an issue when it comes to signing such a player........so whats your explanation ??........apparently Grabovski hasn`t had any serious offers ??
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2013 :  08:41:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke, I just need three things to respond to your post:

1) I've already stated he was likely not signed because he and/or his agent are over valuing him. Not certain but that would be my guess. I said that a long time ago.

2) Why does a player all of a sudden become selfish for making comments about being frustrated with the coach for cutting his minutes? Just to be clear we are talking about the same thing, here is the quote from Grabovksi I have been talking about. He talks in detail about how much he loved Toronto, loved the fans, and loved the City. He disliked his coach. I am starting to think people are reading the same dictionary they read to get the definition of hypocritical that they are getting the definition of selfish.

I'm [expletive] happy right now. Of course I feel [expletive] sad. I played [expletive] five years here. I'm supposed to feel upset about that. I loved it [here]. Toronto fans are one of the best fans in the world. I play in the [expletive] Russian KHL, I make lots of [expletive] points and what's going to happen? He make me [expletive] play on the fourth line and he put me in the playoffs on the fourth line and third line again. Yeah, I don't score goals. I need to work more about that. I know that. But if you feel support from your coach [you'll find success]. I don't feel any support from this [expletive] idiot. Wilson [expletive] pushed me same hard as this but don't be an [expletive] with me. If you don't like something tell [expletive] right away, don't put me on the bench, healthy scratch [me] or something. Don't put me on a [expletive] third line and then [expletive] play me six minutes in a game. I need to work harder. I need to be smarter, I need to play harder, need to play better and score a lot of goals and do what I do the best.


3) (And like the most important point).

How are Grabovksi's points about Carlyle any different than comments Kadri has made since Wilson's departure?? Sure, Grabovski likes the word 'expletive' a lot more the Kadri but is there really a difference??

The coach didn't trust me. He didn't understand me. He didn't communicate with me and just dumped me on the 3rd and 4th lines or didn't play me at all.

Remember that??? Is Kadri a selfish idiot?? If you think Grabovski is but Kadri isn't, you might want to look up that definition of hypocrite again.






Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2013 :  15:00:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wishing this Grabovski stuff would go away, but as always finding more information on the web which are similar to this discussion. Here is an article from the Edmonton Journal which was prior to Gagner's signing and directly compared these 2 players. For the record the are of weight (10 pound advantage to Gagner)and playing styles. The article goes on to stating that Grabo is a better 5 on 5 player, with slightly better career stats and has seen a role on the Penalty Kill in 2009-10 in Toronto, which is a weakness for Edmonton. As Edmonton is short on depth for the penalty kill, the author of the article suggested the Oilers sign Grabo at closer to $4.0, rather than pay in excess of $5 million for Gagner, then use Gagner as trade bait for other depth piece needed in Edmonton. Gagner later that week signed for $4.8 million.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2013/07/20/sam-gagner-mikhail-grabovski-and-the-edmonton-oilers/

Why did I post this, just to show that Grabo's buyout, was an overpay, but there is a market for him, based on a comparable player career wise. Apparently Pheonix is reportedly also interested in his services as well as Washington. Pretty sure he will be signed soon, which when he does, we can compare it to his older contract and the contract Gagner signed.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Was-Grabovski-waiting-on-Phoenix-sale-Buzzcast-at-3pm/1/53221

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 08/07/2013 15:02:34
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2013 :  18:05:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I really hope he does well where-ever he goes.
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