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Guest2302
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Posted - 07/05/2013 :  10:06:57  Reply with Quote
After 17 seasons, Daniel Alfredsson is leaving the Ottawa Senators for Detroit. Alfredsson signed a one-year deal.


So sorry Sens fans...

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  10:12:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Very very unhappy about this. Great player and leader for a team lacking in those areas. $5.5 million is too much for his on ice play and injury risk, but with everything else he brings to the team, he is a hole in the team I dont know they can fill. Good luck in Detroit.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  12:40:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, this totally sucks.

I can't see how Detroit has a better chance of winning the Cup than Ottawa.

And being a Sens' Fan, I am really disappointed by this. Alfie is our guy. Granted, 5.5 million is WAY too much. But still, I just can't understand that after everything that Alfie has been through in this city, that he would want to leave now, just when the getting was getting good...

If I were Alfredsson and I really wanted one last chance at winning the Cup, I would have signed with Ottawa for a million. Next year, Ottawa has a real chance of going deep. Plus, how great of a satisfaction would it be to win the Cup with Ottawa? I just don't get it...
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just1n
Rookie



248 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  12:47:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think it's weird too, but some players just want to try something else at the end of their careers. Mats Sundin comes to mind. He was coming from a non-playoff team though...
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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
213 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  12:55:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
just replaced Alfie with Bobby Ryan. traded from Anaheim for Silfverberg, 1st round pick and a prospect.
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  12:56:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Things just got more interesting now that Bobby Ryan has landed in Ottawa...

Another Right-Handeder. Fleet-footed with a bullet of a shot. Bobby Ryan is kind of like a younger American version of Alfie. I hope it works out for him in Ottawa.

...Too bad we had to give up Silfverberg though... :(
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  13:02:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bobby Ryan nice, Silfverberg gone bad! Good value for Silfverberg, but this might be a trade that looks good now and sucks in a few years.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  13:13:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just looked at the details in full and Noesen and next years 1st round pick. I may be in the minority but this looks like a loss for the Sens or an overpayment for a guy who has only 2 years remaining on his contract and may not be in the long term plans.

Silfverberg for those unfamiliar with him is a good 2way player who last year had 10 goals and 20 points as a rookie on a goal starved team, was a ppg player in the Swedish League and for short stretches was Ottawa's best offensive threat.

I think Bobby Ryan is better than Silfverberg now, but I have this feeling with Getzlaf and Perry on his line, Silfverberg is gonna have a steep increase in stats, while Ryan will not have the quality of linemates in Ottawa, wont see that stats he had in Anaheim. The 1st and last years 2nd who is a highly touted prospect, just hurt more.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 07/05/2013 13:55:46
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  13:47:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's a link to Bobby Ryans signing. I gues you gotta pay to land the big fish.

http://www.silversevensens.com/2013/7/5/4496706/senators-acquire-forward-bobby-ryan-from-ducks

I guess Michalek/Spezza/Ryan is being touted as a great possible line combination. I really hope rehab for Spezza and Michalek goes well or 1/3 of that potential line is gonna have to shoulder the load as Ottawa is not deep on depth of veteran players. Clark MacArthur's signing helps, but I dont know if he is a top 6 player or bottom 6 player on Ottawa's roster.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Guest6770
( )

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  15:02:33  Reply with Quote
Bobby Ryan is so good and will light it up with Spezza but could end up being three very good players Anaheim gets in return...

Who won the Bobby Ryan trade? ...
(since Seguin was traded)
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Guest6770
( )

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  15:03:56  Reply with Quote
And BTW I think Detroit is forgetting this was a 48 game season.

they are an old team and won't have the same success in an 82 game season
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4603 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  17:16:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On Alfredsson:

I totally blame management. They had ample opportunity to make up for Alfredsson playing for 900,000 a year, on a contract designed so that if he retired, it wouldn't have cost much. Turns out, management took him for granted, expected him to once again take a hometown discount, and thought he would just sign. And even at the end, when negotiations became clear that he was seriously thinking about Detroit . . . they still sort of waffled.

It brings up the Mats Sundin situation so clearly for me . . . remarkably similar. And just like that situation, I bet most fans will turn on the long time serving captain, as if he is the selfish one.

It will be weird indeed seeing him in Detroit - who, btw, KNOW how to take care of their older, star players.

You won't see Datsyuk play for Boston or Pittsburgh or Philly, and Lidstrom was never given the chance to have another team speak to him - they just wouldn't let that happen, because they have the class to know better.

If it wasn't Alfredsson, I'd have even more sympathy . . . lol. But that's how I see it.

I also think the Sens overpaid for Bobby Ryan bigtime . . . but we'll see.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  17:18:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, tough to pick a winner in the Ott / Ana deal as i really like Silfverberg but Ryan is obviously more proven! Pretty even today imo, but we'll have to wait and see just how good Ryan is alongside different guys. He's been really good with Getzlaf and / or Perry and Spezza's no slouch so it ought to be fun to watch!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2013 :  09:48:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Back to Alfredson for a moment here, Ottawa fans, now that he's gone, happy or sad? Given that he is the franchise leader in points, is it a glad day when a team pays him $5.5 million, when he is clearly not playing at that level. Part of me is glad that a new chapter is open. Hoping that there is leadership in the room to step into Alfredsons role. I had to defend his pitts/ott playoff game 4 comments last year when he seemed to give up in a press conference and still remember the year he got beat on the OT game winning goal by Buffalo in the playoffs, when Ottawa was on the powerplay. He was often injured and although the face of the franchise, some of his moments were not so great. As good as his contribution were, there were times he was given a free ride on poor moments for Ottawa.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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@valanche
Rookie



Canada
240 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2013 :  10:06:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What about the 2007 Stanley Cup Finals, they were all but over and Alfredsson fired a slapshot at Scott Neidermayer well after a whistle with definite intent to hurt / injure

66 is > than 99

Edited by - @valanche on 07/09/2013 10:10:57
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2013 :  16:01:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/08/15/sens-gm-bryan-murray-says-alfies-version-of-events-untrue

Another shot across the bow by Alfredson and the Senators. For the record, I am now a former huge fan of Alfredson, but from this point forward I hope his legacy in Ottawa is tarnished for good. I had to defend his actions, especially his comments during game 4 of last years finals, but much prior to that point I had often wondered if the Senators would be better without him as captain.

He thinks he was given a insult by being offered $4.5 million a year for his final year or 2 and demanded $12 million for 2 years or $7 million for 1 year. Again in my opinion, $4.5 was an overpay, let alone the $5.5 Detroit signed him to. How many years did the Senator pay for 2/3rd of the season of Alfredson on the IR. He thinks last year he took a hometown discount by playing the final year of his signed contract, only because he didn't intend on playing it and thinks he deserved more because he choose to play an additional year. Wake up Alfredson, his 4 year contract was front loaded beyond his actual value and the last year was paying the team back if he was still in game shape to play, which the team and himself had doubts. Just because the last year was a productive year he feels he should have made more. The team is now better without him, he is a selfish person, was long before his departure and not overpaying for him puts them in a better position moving forward.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3592 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2013 :  22:52:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
The team is now better without him



I don't think that is true. But we'll see next year I guess. He may not have been in the prime of his career, but he was still productive. However, it is probably the leadership that OTT will miss the most.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4603 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2013 :  05:31:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/08/15/sens-gm-bryan-murray-says-alfies-version-of-events-untrue

Another shot across the bow by Alfredson and the Senators. For the record, I am now a former huge fan of Alfredson, but from this point forward I hope his legacy in Ottawa is tarnished for good. I had to defend his actions, especially his comments during game 4 of last years finals, but much prior to that point I had often wondered if the Senators would be better without him as captain.

He thinks he was given a insult by being offered $4.5 million a year for his final year or 2 and demanded $12 million for 2 years or $7 million for 1 year. Again in my opinion, $4.5 was an overpay, let alone the $5.5 Detroit signed him to. How many years did the Senator pay for 2/3rd of the season of Alfredson on the IR. He thinks last year he took a hometown discount by playing the final year of his signed contract, only because he didn't intend on playing it and thinks he deserved more because he choose to play an additional year. Wake up Alfredson, his 4 year contract was front loaded beyond his actual value and the last year was paying the team back if he was still in game shape to play, which the team and himself had doubts. Just because the last year was a productive year he feels he should have made more. The team is now better without him, he is a selfish person, was long before his departure and not overpaying for him puts them in a better position moving forward.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



When you make an informal agreement with the management team, AFTER TAKING AN ENORMOUS DISCOUNT CONTRACT, and then ask them to fulfill that agreement - get your back, after you already got theirs - then you have every right to expect that to be done. It wasn't done - management suddenly expected Alfredsson to take yet another discount, or at best, play for what he was worth in terms of goals and assists.

Alfredsson already proved himself to be an excellent player for Ottawa, and despite the fact that he could have easily went elsewhere for bigger money, stayed with Ottawa. A loyal player who was a huge leadership presence, not only in the dressing room, but on the ice, and even in the community.

How come you Ottawa fans can't see that he was due a favour, after already giving many favours to management and the fans by his loyalty, excellent leadership, stellar play, and having already taken a discount?

You want to add up how much he was underpaid year by year, add it up, and tell me it's somehow less than the extra million, million and a half I am guessing, it would have taken to re-sign him and make him a Sen for life - right at the outset?

C'mon! I know we are talking about huge amounts of money here, so some people get lost in the fact that this millionaire is asking for more millions . . . but the Ottawa management and ownership are also making millions - off Alfresson's back, I might remind you.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2013 :  07:30:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's a rare day when I agree with Slozo and today is one of those days. Prior to his last 4 year agreement, Alfredsson could have went as a free agent and got atleast $1 million/season and likely more than $2 million/season. He was coming off 4 seasons of 103 pts, 89 pts, 87 pts, and 74 pts. Sure, he was declining in points but still a legit 70+ point guy. His deal was for 4 years and $19.5 million. That was $7 mil/$7 mill/$4.5 mil/$1 mil. He could have EASILY signed a free agent deal for that same 4 yr team at around $22-$25 million. He left $2-$5 million on the table during his last deal.

He did that for the Senators to keep them with a cap hit of less than $5 million. So what do they do for him afterwards??? Just lowball him and not show any class or honour.


Nope, Alfie comes out of this looking like roses and the Sens look like cheap meatballs. I get that it's sport and these players are more like material assets than people. However, if you are slagging Alfie for his decision and comment I think you are way off base. He showed class and did the right thing for the team in his last deal and was asking for the favour to be returned. They said no so he left. You can't blame him for not wanting to play for a team and GM that do not hold their word.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2013 :  09:48:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

It's a rare day when I agree with Slozo and today is one of those days. Prior to his last 4 year agreement, Alfredsson could have went as a free agent and got atleast $1 million/season and likely more than $2 million/season. He was coming off 4 seasons of 103 pts, 89 pts, 87 pts, and 74 pts. Sure, he was declining in points but still a legit 70+ point guy. His deal was for 4 years and $19.5 million. That was $7 mil/$7 mill/$4.5 mil/$1 mil. He could have EASILY signed a free agent deal for that same 4 yr team at around $22-$25 million. He left $2-$5 million on the table during his last deal.

He did that for the Senators to keep them with a cap hit of less than $5 million. So what do they do for him afterwards??? Just lowball him and not show any class or honour.


Nope, Alfie comes out of this looking like roses and the Sens look like cheap meatballs. I get that it's sport and these players are more like material assets than people. However, if you are slagging Alfie for his decision and comment I think you are way off base. He showed class and did the right thing for the team in his last deal and was asking for the favour to be returned. They said no so he left. You can't blame him for not wanting to play for a team and GM that do not hold their word.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!



Ok, I want to be clear why I am unliking him and what has transpired here. Alfredson was a great player 4-10 years ago and IMO, paid at a slight hometown discount at $4.875 average per year in the twilight of his career. Regardless of the final year being $1 million, he is slightly better on the open market than the $4.875 he garnered by playing to his complete contract, as evidenced by his signing a $5.5 million elsewhere. Had he not played his last year his average would have been $6.1666 million which was not a home town discount and the team did him a favour by front loading his contract. He did no favours in his first 3 years of the contract and because he choose to play in the final year when he thought he would have already retired, which he thought the club owed him a favour. To be honest he was probably the best deal in the NHL last year and yes, probably shouldn't have played if he thought he was doing the team any favours, but his total contract was not a massive deal which should have earned him $7 million this year which was his demand. But upon attempting to resign him to an offer of $4.5 the first offer, when he doesn't counter, return calls and ultimately signs in the open market for $5.5 without trying to negotiate this amount with the team, mean the team made no insult in there first offer. He wasn't a $5.5 million a year player last year. He likely wont be this year and after his comments in game 4 shouldn't be defended by fans of other teams, when I and other Ottawa fans had to defend his actions to you other teams fans. Glad he's gone and Ottawa is on to bigger better, with Ryan and company.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2013 :  10:42:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess its a matter of being a long time Senator's fan, with a clear memory of losing to Buffalo (large part due to his error), the many times to the Leafs, when Alfredson and company couldn't put it together when it mattered. I remember when the choice was Redden or Chara and commented at the time, they could keep both if they weren't hampered with his or another forwards contract. Coupled with his comments that the team wasn't good enough to win against Pittsburg last year 1 game after the team pulled out a shocking win, demoralized us fan and probably his whole team.

Without him, his comments from last year, plus the gain of Bobby Ryan, MacArthur, a healthy more experienced roster, I think this team is now better this year without him and clearer sky's moving forward. The fact that he took a legit offer as an insult, bashed the team on his way outta town because of money, then told a one sided story to preserve his legacy, which only showed me again, money is the only motivation for some players. Detroit is the highest bidder, not a better chance at the cup as he stated and if I am the Senators or a fan of them I want them to prove him wrong. Legacy tarnished.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2013 :  11:21:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=680284&navid=nhl:topheads

See this make the most sense about the debacle. Alfredson was willing to play for $5 million per season with a $2 million signing bonus to make up for what he thought was a favour to the club (remember that this was what he thought in that sentence, not a club consensus). The club countered at $4.5 million with no mention of a signing bonus, but no mention of a rebuff of the signing bonus either, which could be taken many ways, but to him that was an insult, when all he had to do was counter back with the team like every other player and agent does. The parties were not that far apart, yet his comments that they were, are untrue. The fact he left it a month after leaving without acknowledging the fans - team, then slagged the team which only had good things to say about him during his career there and then throw the owner under the bus for being cheap, was classless. They clearly were committed to Alfredson and the Bobby Ryan deal was in works, so not pushing themselves to the cap max which he wanted, might be the only true comment from Alfredson camp. Why should they put themselves in a poor position financially, just for him after what he did to them last year as captain in the playoffs. You want a fancy cup, go to Burger King, Ottawa will compete for one without you.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2013 :  13:41:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Really, I don't care enough to get into this but they past three arguments are some of the most bias, biggest sour grapes comments I read on this site in the past 7+ years.

Laughable. The guy who was the face of the franchise for more than a decade that is virtually cast aside by his team when he is older gets completely slagged by a 'fan' of the team.

Nothing would be more poetic than to see Detroit win the Cup.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4603 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2013 :  15:10:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have to agree with Beans . . . minus the Detroit winning the cup part.

Alfie the one who went on a tirade? Have you been listening to too much media spin from Ottawa, dude?!?

I thought Alfredsson's press conference was fairly to the point, and classy - and remember, it'll probably be the ONLY time he has a chance at explaining himself. Ottawa Sens management (and apparently their clamouring press) will have the rest of the summer, the entire season, and onward to continue to make up insinuations and stories to explain away the situation and probably make themselves out to be heroes . . . how fans can call his short press conference on the trade as some kind of classless move is utterly beyond belief.

You sens fans are really, really weird.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2013 :  15:12:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, Alfredsson entering the Twilight of his career paid in excess of $70 million for his services over 17 years, on good and bad teams comes due for a contract, after signing and playing a 4 year backdiving contract, which both parties agreed to. Alfredsson no longer is a 100 point man, probably 60-70 point man now, is able to handle top 6 minutes but is an injury risk. He IMO is offered a generous $4.5 million contract on a talented roster, after he has asked for $5 million. They were not that far apart. He requested a signing bonus of $2 million because he felt he was underpaid throughout the course of his last season and/or last contract. I didn't hear him or the team deny that a signing bonus was on or off the table, just that it was in his initial offer. He then breaks off negotiations over a 10% impass and gave no clue to the team or fans prior to the day before he becomes a UFA. He then signs with a division rival with a similar coach and team makeup (albeit larger group of veteran presence, less prospective depth), saying they have a better chance at winning the cup, which he stated last post season his team was incapable of performing.

This is the captain and face of the franchise, who has now insulted his team/fan base, insulted the prior GM and owner, but he is considered a class act still. Then when management has a million articles of how they screwed up with him, written in papers and on the net, with no response from the Alfredsson camp for an entire month. He finally a month later without so much as a facebook post he comes out and says he was insulted by there counter offer which was 10% away from his initial request. Some of the statements by his camp didn't ring true and he has a whole fan based pissed off. This is fact, not an angry fan talking.

Lets see how he does in Detroit, lets see how Detroit does in the east, but at the end of the day he could have signed for similar money and forever been Captain of the Senators, but left with a tarnished image. I don't see how you can dispute this.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2013 :  15:48:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is anybody aware that after his prior contract which averaged $4.8 million was the result of a 24% rollback. He was actually signed for a $6 million average. The team did him a favour during the last round of the negotiations and bought that contract out in its final year of $2.1 million and signed him to his last contract at $4.875 per year average, but also was paying him $700,000 in the 1st 3 years because of the buyout favour they had already performed. That means he was making $7.7, $7.7, $5.2 million per year for the first 3 years or $6.866 million average. Last year when he played 48 games he was complaining of only making $1 million in a lockout shortened season and was the only time during this contract the team got the better end of the deal which averaged his pay to $5.4 million per year over 4 years. All the facts help, but at the end of the day it isn't the numbers which upset me, because that is business, it was the actions which have me upset at the player.

Hell he hasn't even been a 60 point player in 2 years and last year he was averaging .55 PPG in the regular season, which would have been a 40ish point season had he played a full season. That saying he played a whole season which also is unlikely because of his age and health issues over the last 4 years. $5.5 million is a major overpay by Detroit and not his actual value. I hope you think a 40 point a year player is worth less too.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 08/16/2013 16:14:10
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2013 :  16:25:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow after reading capgeek's signing for Alfredson I really have to wonder. He is signed for $3.5 million with a $2 million performance bonus. Anyone know what the performance bonus is, because if it has to do with games play, stats or playoffs and he doesn't perform, that means Alfredsson is playing for $1 million less than Ottawa's offer and $2 million maybe's.

Plus I also read today that because of Alfredsson admission he and the Senators circumvented the salary cap, by back diving the contract, by way of buying out the 2nd last contract to pad his pay by $700000 and intending on not playing the final year of his last contract, the NHL could have initiated an investigation similar to what happened to the Devils when Kovalchuk was signed. Clearly this could have hurt the Senators future greatly. Liking Alfredsson less now.

http://nhl.si.com/2013/08/15/did-daniel-alfredsson-help-ottawa-senators-circumvent-the-salary-cap/

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/53053-Alfredsson-departure-left-Senators-in-better-place.html

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 08/16/2013 16:45:55
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2013 :  17:35:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's another excerpt from TSN with regards to Alfredsson supposed insult. Melnyk and Murray believe they negotiated in good faith and also believed Alfredson was going to counter there latest offer, which was not there final number at $4.5. The agent is the target of the excerpt I provided.

"If you want to play a blame game - that is where you should be looking," Melnyk told TSN on Friday. "I have a lot of respect for Daniel. I simply think he was not told the whole story or worse, was lied to. I won't be commenting on this again. We are busy and have a Stanley Cup to win."

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
213 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2013 :  17:55:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
this whole story is starting to look like it belongs front and center on the TMZ website!
look, as a Leaf fan i have my biases about/against Alfredsson over the years. but that was all about what he did on the ice. this time, what he did off the ice was completely classless! IMO he had every intention of throwing Murray and the entire Senators organization under the bus. he went into that press conference with every intent to stir the pot. he knew that questions about his contract negotiations would come up. and instead of taking the classy route and simply saying something along the lines of "i can't get into any details, but i'll just say that we couldn't meet on a common ground." he decided to let the whole hockey world in on what actually happened. i'd say that it was obvious he was still bitter about the entire thing. but does that mean he has to go public about it? the reasons for him not re-signing with Ottawa are between him, his family, his agent, and the Senators organization. no one else needs to know. what he did was 100% deliberate and very unprofessional.
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2013 :  17:56:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

I also think the Sens overpaid for Bobby Ryan bigtime . . . but we'll see.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



You wanna justify this comment. He is a 4 time 30+ goal scorer, who played on the 2nd line of a defensive team with a .76 career average ppg over 7 years at 26 years of age making 5.5 million a year. He had 2 seasons in Anaheim where he was almost a ppg player again from the second line. Do remind you Toronto was all hot in the pants to sign this guy, or do I need to go over the massive overpays Toronto has done for lessor players or are you gonna say you might be mistaken. You are the same person who thinks Alfredsson was underpaid in Ottawa at $7.7 million a year for some less than 60 point seasons right.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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slozo
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Canada
4603 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2013 :  21:30:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by slozo

I also think the Sens overpaid for Bobby Ryan bigtime . . . but we'll see.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



You wanna justify this comment. He is a 4 time 30+ goal scorer, who played on the 2nd line of a defensive team with a .76 career average ppg over 7 years at 26 years of age making 5.5 million a year. He had 2 seasons in Anaheim where he was almost a ppg player again from the second line. Do remind you Toronto was all hot in the pants to sign this guy, or do I need to go over the massive overpays Toronto has done for lessor players or are you gonna say you might be mistaken. You are the same person who thinks Alfredsson was underpaid in Ottawa at $7.7 million a year for some less than 60 point seasons right.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



It's just my opinion - shared by by many - that Ryan was the least valuable of the big three in Anaheim, and was the "non-star" who benefitted the most. I think the Sens massively overpaid, and Silfverberg was a very solid player on the rise, nevermind Rya's contract.

We shall see, shant we?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
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5800 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2013 :  06:35:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree that Ryan was the least valuable of the big 3 in Anaheim, but I still think this is a good trade both ways. However, if we go by the whole "team who got the best player" thing then its hard to argue with what Ott did! I love Silfverberg, but lets face it, he's still relatively unproven.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2013 :  08:03:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by slozo

I also think the Sens overpaid for Bobby Ryan bigtime . . . but we'll see.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



You wanna justify this comment. He is a 4 time 30+ goal scorer, who played on the 2nd line of a defensive team with a .76 career average ppg over 7 years at 26 years of age making 5.5 million a year. He had 2 seasons in Anaheim where he was almost a ppg player again from the second line. Do remind you Toronto was all hot in the pants to sign this guy, or do I need to go over the massive overpays Toronto has done for lessor players or are you gonna say you might be mistaken. You are the same person who thinks Alfredsson was underpaid in Ottawa at $7.7 million a year for some less than 60 point seasons right.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



It's just my opinion - shared by by many - that Ryan was the least valuable of the big three in Anaheim, and was the "non-star" who benefitted the most. I think the Sens massively overpaid, and Silfverberg was a very solid player on the rise, nevermind Rya's contract.

We shall see, shant we?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Ok, I understand that. I was of that opinion at the time of the trade as well, because I really like Silfverberg, Noesen was not a random throw in, but someone I was looking forward to seeing play and a high draft pick. I have done my homework on this one, because I wasn't sold on Ryan either, but all I keep hearing is great things about this guy.

The scoop on him is Anaheim had him slotted behind Perry and Getzlaf who are premier top 10 players in the game. The feeling was much like in Pittsburg with Stall, Malkin and Crosby. The top 2 are so good that Bobby like Staal was considered lessor talent, but in most peoples eyes he was only down the depth chart because of who played ahead of him and would usually slot in on most top lines. On a team like Ottawa, Bobby Ryan is that Premier player like Spezza and we hope Michalek can return to form, even 60-70 point 30 goal output. On paper this is a legit top line in the NHL, which can score 100+ goals and could combine for 250+ points, which you have to pay to build. Anything close will be seen as a small victory for Ottawa, who was being labeled as weak offensively last year.

Silfverberg isn't in that class yet, but most people think he will be. In a few years we may look at him in Anaheim playing with Getzlaf and Perry, wondering what if, but today this is an upgrade absolutely no questions. Noesen and the draft pick aside, Bobby was the best player in this trade now. I am happy Murray finally paid the price for this type of player, while Spezza still has the potential to headline with. Now if you had said Stone, Pageau, Zibanejad or even Conacher, all players with solid potential, would have been better to move in place of Silfverberg, I wholeheartedly agree.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2013 :  09:57:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The_Gipper

this whole story is starting to look like it belongs front and center on the TMZ website!
look, as a Leaf fan i have my biases about/against Alfredsson over the years. but that was all about what he did on the ice. this time, what he did off the ice was completely classless! IMO he had every intention of throwing Murray and the entire Senators organization under the bus. he went into that press conference with every intent to stir the pot. he knew that questions about his contract negotiations would come up. and instead of taking the classy route and simply saying something along the lines of "i can't get into any details, but i'll just say that we couldn't meet on a common ground." he decided to let the whole hockey world in on what actually happened. i'd say that it was obvious he was still bitter about the entire thing. but does that mean he has to go public about it? the reasons for him not re-signing with Ottawa are between him, his family, his agent, and the Senators organization. no one else needs to know. what he did was 100% deliberate and very unprofessional.



I agree and want to thank you for this perspective. The only thing I want to tweak is he only gave his perspective and not the whole story. And the biggest thing is I believe Murray and Melnyk hadn't received this perspective directly from Alfredsson, but through press releases or from his agent, because they clearly thought negotiations were going well. I think what pissed Murray/Melnyk off the most was he didn't even give them a chance to defend themselves before the press attacked and I like you believe it was a deliberate attempt, successful at that to this point, to smear the whole franchise as cheap/classless, but one who committed to him for 17 years and $70 million and allowed him to be the face of there franchise. Alfredsson may have been a good captain, but he was given that opportunity by these men who truly wanted him to be in that position for them now and after retirement. I doubt that is the case today.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2013 :  08:31:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's still laughable. What's this point of the 17 yrs and $70 million?? He has been very close to a PPG player for his CAREER!! How many other PPG guys averaged $4mil/season for their career. I venture to say not many.

The point is simple: Alfredsson took a substantial home town discount an signed a 4 yr deal for less than $20 million when he could have easily gotten another $4-$5 million over that length of time. When he came to the table to Ottawa, he was low balled. Maybe his agent got involved and caused this issue but the point is he gave Ottawa a smoking deal when he was an elite player and a guy who has played his entire career for that team should have gotten better.

And the funniest thing is the Ottawa brass not having an opportunity to defend themselves. Alfredsson waited more than a month after signing with Detroit to say his part. Ottawa had all that time to step up to the mic and share their side of the story. It's not Alfredssons fault they chose not to say anything.

As far as Bobby Ryan goes, he is easily the bottom of the big three in Anaheim but he is a legit player none the less. I think he will fill the hole that Heatley left behind and Ottawa never filled.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2013 :  12:41:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I haven't followed the entire Alfie thing so i won't go too deep. I do wanna ask something though regarding the issue as i've seen it mentioned by a few people, most recently, Beans.

If i understand correctly, Alfredsson signed at a "hometown discount" at one point and is now expecting to be overpaid for what his worth is, due to the discount he gave them before??? If that's the case, do i here in Vancouver expect the Canucks to overpay the Sedin's next year when they're deals expire? I mean, a hometown discount isn't "hey, i'll sign for less today, as long as you overpay me later to make up for it" is it??? It's supposed to give your team a shot at a cup by having more money to sign other pieces, whether it's in year 3 of your career or year 23!!!

If Alfie thinks the Sens are close, why wouldn't he sign for 4-5Mil there and allow the Sens to use that other 2-3 elsewhere? GREED!!! That's why. And don't get me wrong, i'm not picking on him alone. MANY do it.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3592 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2013 :  13:39:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
If i understand correctly, Alfredsson signed at a "hometown discount" at one point and is now expecting to be overpaid for what his worth is, due to the discount he gave them before??? If that's the case, do i here in Vancouver expect the Canucks to overpay the Sedin's next year when they're deals expire? I mean, a hometown discount isn't "hey, i'll sign for less today, as long as you overpay me later to make up for it" is it??? It's supposed to give your team a shot at a cup by having more money to sign other pieces, whether it's in year 3 of your career or year 23!!!




IMO the Sedins are a different story. I had the same thought with them, however the situation is different

To maximize their value, they must move as a pair, which creates a legitimate handcuff for most teams. A single player @ 7M per year is hard to do, 2 players @ 7M each is a lot harder in the current environment.

At the time they signed their deal, 6.1M per year is probably lower than they could have gotten on the open market, but its not exactly a huge hometown discount - I'm not sure they could have gotten more than 7M each with another team. Alfie at sub-5M is a substantial discount.

Also consider - as much as the Sedin's stuck with VAN, VAN also stuck with the Sedin's. Alfie has been nearly PPG since he joined the NHL, but the Sedin's took a while to develop into what they are now. VAN management stuck by the Sedin's in their early non-productive years and continued to sign them - even as media and fans (myself included) howled that they were a failed experiment, trade them away, move on.

All that being said - anything can happen once you get to free agency. I'd like to think that the Sedin's truly like being in Vancouver and would like to finish their careers here, and that MG will sign them both to the last contracts of their careers that make sense in the new cap world. Of course, I thought the same would be true for Alfie...

Edited by - nuxfan on 08/19/2013 13:45:58
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2013 :  14:23:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fair enough Nux, but maybe i shouldn't have used the twins as an example. My whole point / question is more to do with "are teams expected to overpay later in a guy's career to more or less thank him for a discount earlier"???

Also, i don't agree that the Sedin's owed anything to the Canucks for sticking with them. They didn't overpay them at those times and had they not resigned them or traded them, they'd surely have eventually developed elsewhere and the Canucks would have been kicking themselves in the ass for many years!

Crosby and Malkin are examples. Sure, both signed for huge dollars, but lets face it, both could have gotten more elsewhere. Now, down the road, if Malkin is worth lets say 5.5 per on his next deal, do the Pens need to pay him 7 as a thank you for this current deal? If so, a hometown discount is more like a hometown LOAN!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2013 :  15:07:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tell me if you truly believe $19.5 salary + $2.1 million buyout bonus or $5.4 million per year over the course of Alfredsson's last 4 years, seemed at all like a home town discount. In 2009/10 at 36 he was a 1.0 ppg player in 70 games with 71 points making $7.7 million (top 10 pay in the league and good value), at 37 in 2010/11 he played 54 games for 31 points, .57ppg making $7.7 million (top 10 pay in the league, poor value), at 38 in 2011/12 he played in 75 games with 59 points .78ppg making $5.2 million (still excellent pay for decent but declining stats), in 2012/13 at 39 he played 47 games and only produced 26 points at .55ppg making $1million (poor pay, but poor stats).

If you take the last 3 years of 2010/11, 2011/12 and 2012/13 low performance at .63ppg and his most recent season at .55ppg at 40 and an injury risk, how do you say they low balled him at $4.5 million for a 41 year old with 40+ point potential, when the best offer on the open market was $3.5 million salary with a $2 million performance bonus. I just don't agree he took a home town discount the last 4 years or was given a poor offer with another home town discount at $4.5 salary guaranteed. And the point is if he was gonna stay in Ottawa, why should the Senators pay higher than value for his services at 41, with his declining play and injury risk, when they have a competitive team without him. It was not nearly the insult he is making it out to be. His agent has painted Melnyk a greedy owner saying also Murray negotiated in bad faith, which I also disagree with. He and his camp have acted classless to an organization which has done an excellent job of surrounding him with the talent for the majority of his career, which allowed him to succeed, except for a few rebuilding years, which are behind the organization. Again moving forward Ottawa is better without his $4.5 hit and poor comments.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

It's still laughable. What's this point of the 17 yrs and $70 million?? He has been very close to a PPG player for his CAREER!! How many other PPG guys averaged $4mil/season for their career. I venture to say not many.

The point is simple: Alfredsson took a substantial home town discount an signed a 4 yr deal for less than $20 million when he could have easily gotten another $4-$5 million over that length of time. When he came to the table to Ottawa, he was low balled. Maybe his agent got involved and caused this issue but the point is he gave Ottawa a smoking deal when he was an elite player and a guy who has played his entire career for that team should have gotten better.

And the funniest thing is the Ottawa brass not having an opportunity to defend themselves. Alfredsson waited more than a month after signing with Detroit to say his part. Ottawa had all that time to step up to the mic and share their side of the story. It's not Alfredssons fault they chose not to say anything.

As far as Bobby Ryan goes, he is easily the bottom of the big three in Anaheim but he is a legit player none the less. I think he will fill the hole that Heatley left behind and Ottawa never filled.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 08/19/2013 15:12:59
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1905 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2013 :  15:20:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
If i understand correctly, Alfredsson signed at a "hometown discount" at one point and is now expecting to be overpaid for what his worth is, due to the discount he gave them before??? If that's the case, do i here in Vancouver expect the Canucks to overpay the Sedin's next year when they're deals expire? I mean, a hometown discount isn't "hey, i'll sign for less today, as long as you overpay me later to make up for it" is it??? It's supposed to give your team a shot at a cup by having more money to sign other pieces, whether it's in year 3 of your career or year 23!!!




IMO the Sedins are a different story. I had the same thought with them, however the situation is different

To maximize their value, they must move as a pair, which creates a legitimate handcuff for most teams. A single player @ 7M per year is hard to do, 2 players @ 7M each is a lot harder in the current environment.

At the time they signed their deal, 6.1M per year is probably lower than they could have gotten on the open market, but its not exactly a huge hometown discount - I'm not sure they could have gotten more than 7M each with another team. Alfie at sub-5M is a substantial discount.

Also consider - as much as the Sedin's stuck with VAN, VAN also stuck with the Sedin's. Alfie has been nearly PPG since he joined the NHL, but the Sedin's took a while to develop into what they are now. VAN management stuck by the Sedin's in their early non-productive years and continued to sign them - even as media and fans (myself included) howled that they were a failed experiment, trade them away, move on.

All that being said - anything can happen once you get to free agency. I'd like to think that the Sedin's truly like being in Vancouver and would like to finish their careers here, and that MG will sign them both to the last contracts of their careers that make sense in the new cap world. Of course, I thought the same would be true for Alfie...



I also don't think you can compare the Sedins to Alfredsson, but for a hugely different reason, as they are not at comparable points in there careers. Alfredsson was a PPG player 4 years ago, but he is no longer that guy. And to suggest at this point in his career, he deserves the same type of pay as the Sedins is laughable. I also agree that to give a home town discount only to later substantially over pay for a players services, when his play has steadily declined and he is at or near retirement is ridicules.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2013 :  15:43:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The point I see from your perspective is looking at this simply as a 41 yr old player that is an apparent injury risk who is likely to get 40 pts. I am looking at this as the face of the franchise and the guy the team can look at as their best player during their most successful time. He wasn't get paid when he was the best and they low balled him, not based on him today, but based on everything he has done for them.


It's not about today it's about the entire body of work. You are looking at today which I why you disagree with my look at the entire body of work.

If you look at it from your perspective, I get it. But I think averaging less than $4million per season during the past 17 years when elite players were making SIGNIFICANTLY more money is a steal. Ottawa robbed Alfredsson for the better part of the past 20 yrs and they let him walk for likely around $1 million/season.

I think his legacy is worth that much.




Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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