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Guest4088
( )

Posted - 12/28/2013 :  17:16:19  Reply with Quote
rumour has it leafs close to signing phaneuf to 7 years for 49 mil (7 mil per). Im a leafs fan and absolutely HATE this contract. Chara was signed 7 years for 45.5 mil. How can you possibly pay phaneuf more than chara???
How does nonis justify this contract???
Phaneuf has never taken his team past first round in playoffs I believe (I could be wrong...but not worth looking it up). besides last year never even led the leafs to the playoffs. He is nor a shutdown guy....ie he is not the most reliable guy to play up by one with a minute to go (just look at last years playoffs), nor is he a great offensive guy (14pts in 38 games). Especially with younger cheaper better skating guys coming up (reilly, gardiner).
He is the captain of the team but the I don't think he is a good captain either. He is very mopy, especially when things go wrong, not exactly a good quality for a team leader. The media and fans aren't always on his side and I don't see this contract helping either.
Nonis, if you are reading this, what the hell are you thinking??? first Clarkson (who also isn't a last minute of play kind of guy) now phaneuf. I'm almost ready to throw in the white towel.
Can anyone justify this contract to me????or I would also appreciate more phaneuf bashing or reasons why this contract will keep the leafs from being contenders for years to come.
If anyone wants to start a fire nonis campaign I will back you up.

nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2013 :  19:16:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't particularly agree with this deal - both in terms of $$ or term - but this is what a dman like Phaneuf is worth in today's market. If you look at his bio, he is:

- a top-2 dman that plays 25+ minutes a night against the opposition's top players
- physical dman, can dish out big hits
- scores roughly 0.5 ppg good for 40 points in a full season (although lagging that this year)
- plays top PP and some PK
- captain of the Maple Leafs - arguably one of the toughest jobs in hockey.

These are similar qualities (give or take) to any of the 7M+ dmen in the NHL today.

I don't agree with this deal because Phaneuf is not the greatest defensive defenseman, and if you're going to pay top dollar to your #1 dman, he'd better do all of the above and be a defensive stalwart as well - see Weber, Suter, Chara, Pietrangelo, Doughty. Phaneuf is IMO inferior to all of them.

That being said - if TOR doesn't resign Phaneuf and they lose him in the summer, what do they do instead? What do you fill those boots with next year? There are no top-2 dmen available this summer, and if there were the bidding war would be epic, it would cost far more than 7M for a UFA Weber or Suter. One could be had via trade, but the cost would be supreme, and TOR would pay about the same. Phaneuf provides what TOR needs, at a price they can afford. Hence the signing.

Edited by - nuxfan on 12/28/2013 19:17:38
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1037 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2013 :  12:37:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with you guest 4088

Phaneuf is not a 7 million per season player...nor is he close to it.

At times he will make the big play or score the big goal...but...for the most part he is a very inconsistent d-man. There are times when he looks like the WOSRT d-man on the ice, making bone head stupid plays....you never know what he is going to do.

If Nonis gives this contract to Phaneuf.....what is he going to do when Reilly and Gardiner demands the $$$$ that people are saying they will want 2-3 years down the road ??

Right now the leafs need a 4-5 million dollar per season ( true shut down d-man ) defenseman.....they haven`t got one. Gunn and Franson are not this reliable player they so desperately need.

So in reality, if Nonis can obtain this 4 - 5 million dollar player, they will have.
Phaneuf.......................................................7 million per season
New shut down guy ( which they need )..... 5 million per season
Reilly.......................................................... ??
Gardiner.................................................... ??

Wheres all the $$$ and cap space coming from ??......this deal will handcuff the leafs for years and years and make Phaneuf and UNTRADE-ABLE player who the leafs will be stuck with for a long , long time.

The BIG problem the leafs have is this....IF...Phaneuf was that SHUT DOWN stud defenseman they desperately need....then Nonis wouldn`t have to look for that NEW 4 - 5 million dollar player would they ???.......so if Phaneuf can`t deliver this role.....which in my opinion HE CAN`T.....why sign him ??

Start off with a new slate, utilize the young players they already have and look for a true SHUT DOWN defenseman ......with Franson, Gardiner and Reilly in the mix.....they don`t need Phaneuf`s offense.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2013 :  13:14:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I say his worth is sub $6 million a year over 4-5 years. He is durable, skilled offensively, has a cannon for a shot and has played in a defensive role for Toronto. He is not the best of any skill in particular in Toronto, except maybe his shot, but is the nastiest player on the ice to play against and is without question a leader on the ice. I do worry about his speed and how durable he is going to be in 4-5 years which is why I wouldn't sign him longer than 5.

The Leafs may have to sign him for more or for longer because of the role he fills in Toronto and to lock up a player with his skills, you may have to go to max term and above his worth, because someone else will. Everyone remembers his highlight reel hits and highlight reel misses, but at the end of the day, playing against the top players in the league paired with another defense first Dman, Phaneuf is top 2 on 15-20 teams in the NHL today, let alone his leadership qualities.
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Guest9825
( )

Posted - 12/29/2013 :  18:17:14  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

I agree with you guest 4088

Phaneuf is not a 7 million per season player...nor is he close to it.

At times he will make the big play or score the big goal...but...for the most part he is a very inconsistent d-man. There are times when he looks like the WOSRT d-man on the ice, making bone head stupid plays....you never know what he is going to do.

Sorry for crossing threads but, you can somehow justify 6M for the next 7 years for a tough in the corners guy who has never produced more than 45 points in a season and clearly isn't producing (Clarkson) but can't justify 7M for 7 years for your currently #1 defenceman? WTF. Would love to hear how you dance around this.
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Guest9249
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Posted - 12/29/2013 :  21:27:38  Reply with Quote
All those armchair GMs saying Phaneuf shouldn't be signed.

Fine, let's pretend he isn't. He goes somewhere else where he gets the same or even better deal. How exactly do you fill his position then? What options do you have? Sign UFA - who? Trade - for which player and what price are you willing to pay? Move your own defensemen around - how?
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2013 :  22:52:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9825
Sorry for crossing threads but, you can somehow justify 6M for the next 7 years for a tough in the corners guy who has never produced more than 45 points in a season and clearly isn't producing (Clarkson) but can't justify 7M for 7 years for your currently #1 defenceman? WTF. Would love to hear how you dance around this.



You must be new here... this sort of logic is par for the course with Duke.

Phaneuf probably has a pretty low relative corsi score...
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Guest4088
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Posted - 12/29/2013 :  23:15:12  Reply with Quote
I don't think not signing him is an option, but giving him 7 mil for 7 seasons, when he is by default the #1 guy isn't justified either. I would have preferred a 3-5 year deal at that price or a 7 year deal at 4-5 mil. you cant pay for perfection for that long when he has a shaddy track record. whos to say the leafs next 7 first rounders are dmen, then what do you do with his contract down the road?
what motivation does phaneuf have over the next few years to perform?
in general I don't like the way the leafs are handing out contracts. they have kessel, lupul, bozak, JVR, and Clarkson signed long term (through 2017-18). This group doesn't exactly come from a winning pedigree, nor have they shown that collectively they can take the team deep in the playoffs and compete for the cup. So why sign them all to long term deals? players tend to outperform when they have contract years coming up, some financial motivation to play well, but that seems to be out of the equation for this group now. they don't leave much flexibility in their roster.
once kadri resigns, you will likely have 6 forwards signed for over 4 mil. generally speaking that's top 6 money. that leaves zero room for top 6 forwards in the next 5 years of draft picks. and you wont be winning any cups when your third line is making 4 mil plus each....just doesn't happen.
its like closing time at the bar...time to grab the prettiest girl of the bunch. when the lights finally come on and you sober up, you then realize you made bad decisions based on circumstances, not actual quality.
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Guest9249
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Posted - 12/30/2013 :  07:39:20  Reply with Quote
Oh, and I would have preferred to pay about 200,000 less for my house. It really is not the nicest house ever. However, the market price is what it is.

Phaneuf would not sign for less term or money, because he would easily get this deal on free market, especially with the cap going up 6+ millions.

Hence the question: how exactly would you replace him, guest 4088?
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Guest9249
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Posted - 12/30/2013 :  07:44:34  Reply with Quote
I am nor sure about Corsi, but Phaneuf currently has the best plus-minus on the team while playing against top lines all season long.
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Guest8468
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Posted - 12/30/2013 :  08:12:06  Reply with Quote
Guest 4088 hits the nail on the head. Right now the leafs are the definition of mediocre. They lose to good teams, beat bad teams. Which is fine, but it's not going to win any cups anytime soon. Does Phaneuf make them more likely to finish 7-8th and get wiped out first round? Yes. Does he bring them closer to the cup? No, no he doesn't.

And even if $7 mill is decent value at the moment, what will he be worth in 7 years time? He is demanding 7 years because he knows it's the last contract where he can demand any sort of money, and he knows it. They'll be paying a washed-up 4th or 5th defencemen 7 milly by the end of this contract.

It's like Toronto bought into their own hype based on a shortened season last year. Because the leafs should have beaten the bruins, they think they are right on the cusp. They aren't. I can sympathize because not signing him would damage the current team, but he simply isn't worth the money or the term, it's just a very weak year for UFA defencemen. This is a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation.
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Guest4088
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Posted - 12/30/2013 :  13:55:07  Reply with Quote
I never said don't sign him, just sign him for less money, or less term.
One big beef I have with the leafs is they never take advantage of being the so-called hockey mecca. Players should take a discount to play there. Guys like phaneuf crave the attention so really, will he want to go elsewhere as a free agent? doubt it. cant see his movie star wife moving to Edmonton or Winnipeg or Nashville.

at 7 mil, I believe he will be tied for 4th highest paid dman in the league....that's a lot considering he isn't really being talked about for making the Olympic team....which means he isn't even top 7 dman in our country. if he was a shutdown guy with a heavy shot and leadership abilities, you think he would be a lock for team Canada but obviously he is mediocre in most categories. likely his skating isn't good enough for the big ice surface, so if that's an issue now, how will his skating be in 6-7 years when hes still making 7 mil per season? the young guys coming into the league aren't getting any slower, this will definitely be an issue going forward.
so how do you replace him? hopefully you just pay him less and bring in an actual gritty shot blocking shutdown dman to pick up his slack...but that also costs money as the duke has eluded to...but im not sure where this money comes from after shelling out 7 mil to mediocre phaneuf.
That's not phaneufs fault, its nonis'. He built himself a thin blueline and has himself backed into a corner and has left the team with too much salary invested into mediocre guys. for too long they pay guys for where they play (ie first line centre gets first line money, same with second line. think grabovski, kulemin) when in reality they play lower in the lineup on most teams and should be paid as such.
I do enjoy hearing both sides of the argument though, lots of good points being made on both sides.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2013 :  14:18:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4088

I never said don't sign him, just sign him for less money, or less term.
One big beef I have with the leafs is they never take advantage of being the so-called hockey mecca. Players should take a discount to play there. Guys like phaneuf crave the attention so really, will he want to go elsewhere as a free agent? doubt it. cant see his movie star wife moving to Edmonton or Winnipeg or Nashville.



Why would Phaneuf accept less money or less term? He knows that the UFA market is thin this summer, and top-2 dmen are in very short supply - if TOR doesn't sign him he's going to get his term and his money somewhere else (or very close to it). Phaneuf is holding all the cards in this negotiation. He's a UFA, so he is not limited to EDM, NSH, WPG - and there would be plenty more lining up to sign him.

As for taking a discount to play in TOR - again, why? A lot of players may like the idea of playing for TOR borne out of some childhood fantasy, but it comes with its share of liabilities:

- no anonymity, and a relatively high amount of pressure compared to other hockey markets.
- very little "private" life, for you or your family, with regards to media coverage
- mediocre team with very little chance of winning today or in the very near future.

What exactly is TOR's negotiating tactic to get players to sign for less? Further, they haven't done anything with recent signings to introduce that sort of culture. Lupul, Bozak, Kessel all recently signed for market, and Clarkson got over-market. How will they suddenly get someone to come to the team for under-market now?

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Guest3792
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Posted - 12/30/2013 :  14:37:49  Reply with Quote
I can see reason why someone would take less money:
-Less money for you means.. more money for the team which means better teammates. Better team mantes leads to better chance of winning the ever so elusive Stanley
-Less money for you means.. less hate from fans which in turn make the privacy thin not as bad possibly even good depending on your attitude
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2013 :  14:54:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah a really bad contract. Again too long and too much money. I hope he doesn't get it. I would be happy with 5 millions. I understand that Phaneuf is irreplaceable. But so be it. Let him go, sign Franson, keep Gardiner, Rielly and Gunnarson happy and build on that. Be patient.

The thing is that Toronto makes a lot of money and they can afford to bury some contract in the AHL (Like they did with Jeff Finger and now with Liles) In 4 years with Phaneuf and Clarkson playing for the Marlies, the Marlies will be a high paid AHL team.

Can we say Redden?

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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1037 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2013 :  14:56:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
guest 9825....
I will answer your question...I don't dance around questions. I will give my opinion on anything, I call it as I see it.

Your question was, how can I justify the leafs ( nonis ) giving Clarkson 6 million per season for 7 years and not 7 million per season for 7 years for Phaneuf ??

# 1. ) Clarkson`s cap hit is...5.25 million per season NOT...6 million...BIG difference. His cap hit per season is very close to 5 million .....not close to 6 as u say......if Phaneuf earns a cap hit 7 million per year.....that's almost 2 million per season MORE than Clarkson.

# 2. ) Clarkson can flat out skate, he is very mobile...Phaneuf is NOT....( in my opinion ) Clarkson will be more productive for a longer period of time than will Phaneuf...this is just my opinion....Phaneuf already looks much slower now than he did several years ago.

# 3. ) The leafs DID NOT have a Gary Roberts type player on their team. Clarkson and Bolland were brought in to fill this role....in Clarksons case, he was a UFA......ALL TEAMS...OVER_PAY for UFA`s......this is public knowledge

# 4. ) In Phaneufs case....Several people here seem to think that Phaneuf is this super star that the leafs cannot do without....I beg to differ.I`m not saying he is useless.....but I certainly don`t think that he is the impact player some make him out to be and he is DEFINITELY NOT top 5 NHL salary material amongst D- Men,,,NO WAY.........sure he leads the leafs in ice time for D-men, but if he weren't there someone else would.

# 5 .) Clarksons deal over 7 years pays him.....36 . 75 million........this new deal for Phaneuf will pay him.....................49 ......million....that's a difference of over 12 million dollars ...so I wouldn't exactly compare the 2.

guest 9249......you ask, what do the leafs do if they don't sign Phaneuf ??...firstly,.they give Franson a bigger role...he scores with Phaneuf, he is younger, he is bigger, and he is more mobile....secondly, they give Reilly and Gardiner bigger minutes....tell Caryle to loosen up a bit and let these 2 young stars play hockey.

P.S....every1 seems to think or is under the impression that I think Phaneuf is a total terrible player, this is not the case.

Should the leafs sign Phaneuf for 7 mill for 7 years ??... 100 % NOT

Should they sign him for 5 - 6 mill for 5 years ??...100 % YES

The leafs have made a lot of mistakes over the years, its time for them to put the franchise first for a change. Handcuffing themselves to a 7 million dollar cap hit for 7 years on a player who clearly is slowing down is not the answer.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2013 :  16:29:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest3792

I can see reason why someone would take less money:
-Less money for you means.. more money for the team which means better teammates. Better team mantes leads to better chance of winning the ever so elusive Stanley



In general, yes - however if the entire team doesn't buy in, then it doesn't work. From what I can tell, Phaneuf would be the ONLY Leaf that was taking a discount to play in Toronto. If he escapes as a UFA in the summer, he may very well do that on a team that already has that culture from the top down.

quote:

-Less money for you means.. less hate from fans which in turn make the privacy thin not as bad possibly even good depending on your attitude



I don't know about TOR, but most people know who every Canuck is in Vancouver, from the minimum wagers to the stars. I don't think most of them lead anything close to a normal life here - which is fine, its part of the gig I suppose.

quote:
Originally posted by duke
The leafs DID NOT have a Gary Roberts type player on their team. Clarkson and Bolland were brought in to fill this role....in Clarksons case, he was a UFA......ALL TEAMS...OVER_PAY for UFA`s......this is public knowledge



The Leafs still don't have a Gary Roberts type player on their roster... please stop comparing Clarkson to much better players.

And all teams do not over pay for UFA's. However, some do, and Leafs are one of those teams.
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Guest4088
( )

Posted - 12/30/2013 :  17:08:50  Reply with Quote
in a what have you done for me lately league, here are some stats on phaneuf: im curious to hear from all those justifying his contract
this season: (ranks among defenseman)
goals = tied 23rd
assists = tied 46th
points = tied 41st
plus minus = tied 11th (+ 13 this year, - 18 previous 4)
avg ice time = 25th
pim = 5th (though he may have a decent +/-,he is likely in the box for many ppg against)
fights =0 (good leader sticking up for his teammates. last season = 1 fight)
Based on these numbers, how many dman in the league are due for 49million dollar contracts? keep in mind phaneuf is 28 so past his physical prime years. By default every team in the league has 2 top 2 dmen, so that in itself does not justify a big money contract.

Career stats:
number of Stanley cups = 0
number of playoff round wins = 0
playoff record 12-20

what bargaining chips is phaneuf using exactly because based on these numbers he is mediocre at best???

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Guest6751
( )

Posted - 12/31/2013 :  06:49:28  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4088
what bargaining chips is phaneuf using exactly because based on these numbers he is mediocre at best???

He showed them David Clarkson's contract.
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Guest8468
( )

Posted - 12/31/2013 :  07:17:43  Reply with Quote
Yep really bad deal for the leafs. Phaneuf would have gotten that as a UFA so you can't blame the guy. He isn't going to take a home town discount because the leafs aren't contenders. Even if they were, most guys want to make the max they can on their last deal (which this most likely is for Phaneuf).

He'll be hot garbage by the end of the 7 years, but at least the cap is going up and Toronto has infinite money I guess? This team's ceiling still looks like the second round of the (lol) eastern conference playoffs.
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Guest0056
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Posted - 12/31/2013 :  09:53:37  Reply with Quote
Let him go somewhere else... what real good does he do for the Leafs anyway. When he pinches, and gets caught, he doesn't have any where near the amount of speed necessary to get back. And when he does skate back all he can do is reach out and poke with his stick...he stops skating from the blue line in.... that's not a leader of a team. One on one he gets beat basically every time outside along the boards because his speed and timing are way off. In front of the net he's the last one to stand up for his players...unless Orr is there, it's against a small non physical player or the refs are there controlling the issue...watch how many times he is knocked off balance or is sat on his ass in the crease area.
We have Fanson (more points), Gardiner (just under in points, much faster), Rielly (4 less points and 7 less games played).
Now we're stuck with him, untradable for 7 years!!! Wasted time and money

Share his ice time with the developing defense-man to improve the team defensively





quote:
Originally posted by Guest9249

All those armchair GMs saying Phaneuf shouldn't be signed.

Fine, let's pretend he isn't. He goes somewhere else where he gets the same or even better deal. How exactly do you fill his position then? What options do you have? Sign UFA - who? Trade - for which player and what price are you willing to pay? Move your own defensemen around - how?

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2013 :  10:01:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6751

quote:
Originally posted by Guest4088
what bargaining chips is phaneuf using exactly because based on these numbers he is mediocre at best???

He showed them David Clarkson's contract.



Lol.....should have seen that coming!
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2013 :  16:10:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0056
We have Fanson (more points), Gardiner (just under in points, much faster), Rielly (4 less points and 7 less games played).
Now we're stuck with him, untradable for 7 years!!! Wasted time and money

Share his ice time with the developing defense-man to improve the team defensively



Which one of those guys is playing 25 minutes a game against the opposition's top players, night in and night out - while still managing to add some respectable offensive production?
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Guest9223
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Posted - 01/01/2014 :  08:15:50  Reply with Quote
I believe Duke said all teams overpay for their UFAS, I would say Boston got a steal when they signed Chara to his deal. Looking back he would have been worth 10 mil per season. Some teams can spend their money resonably well. Just not Toronto.
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Guest4088
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Posted - 01/01/2014 :  08:35:40  Reply with Quote
just curious, how much do you guys think Crosby would fetch on the market if he were to be a ufa this summer?
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 01/01/2014 :  14:31:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9223

I believe Duke said all teams overpay for their UFAS, I would say Boston got a steal when they signed Chara to his deal. Looking back he would have been worth 10 mil per season. Some teams can spend their money resonably well. Just not Toronto.



As did VAN when they got Hamhuis @ 4.5M per year for 6 years, and then Garrison @ 4.6M for 6 years - both in years when dmen were in demand and both were UFA's. I agree, not every team overpays for UFA's.

quote:
just curious, how much do you guys think Crosby would fetch on the market if he were to be a ufa this summer?



I'm sure he'd get offers at 10 or 11M over long terms. He's (arguably) the best player in the game today. That being said, there is only so much a team can pay a single player and still be able to build around him.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1037 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2014 :  13:44:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anyway, I guess the leafs like what Phaneuf is doing for them, they got their man.

Nuxfan, those were good signings for the canucks, guess you guys have a good GM out there. Did either of those players WANT to play for the canucks in particular ??........of course Clarkson did indeed want to play for the leafs and Toronto of course DID NOT get a discount on Clarkson.........having said that....Clarkson apparently did have more $$$$ on the table from the Oilers and turned it down to play in Toronto, hence the deal he got.....Nonis either had to pay up or let him sign else-where.

I said that teams overpay for UFA`s because MOST OFTEN they do. When Boston signed Chara I said then they signed the player of the decade, absolute great signing. BUT I bet people can name 3 bad ones for every good one ( UFA speaking )

Some that come to mind
Scott Gomez
Brad Richards
Ilya Bryz
Wade Redden
Mike Kom
I`m sure if some-one had to dig they would find many, many UFA`s who got over-paid through unrestricted free agency.

Nuxfan, you really don`t think that Clarkson and Bolland don`t play a similar style to that of Gary Roberts ??......I know that one player can`t be the other, they are different people of course, not clones....but I certainly do think their play is very similar.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1037 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2014 :  14:01:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You know, some-one mentioned earlier ( regarding contenders signing UFA`s ) that it is different. I agree to a point.

What is a contender ??.....lets compare point totals of the Canucks this season to that of the leafs. Vancouver of course is considered a top cup contender......the leafs of course are not.

Van`s top five as of Tuesday this week have a combined total of 147 points.....TO`s top 5 have a combined total of 138 points........Van`s 6th - 10th scorers have a combined total of 76 points.......TO`s same group have a combined total of 75 points.

At this point of the season Van`s top 10 scorers have a total point advantage of 10 points....pretty dam close heh ?......yet Van. is considered a top 5 cup favorite but the leafs are considered nothing.......like I asked before.....what makes a contender ???

Remember a couple season ago when Montreal ripped through Pittsburg and Washington ???........If a team can get into the playoffs, have a great system in place, play tough in you face hockey and of course the key.....A HOT GOALIE......anything can happen.......a contender on paper is nonsense.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2014 :  14:07:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Nuxfan, those were good signings for the canucks, guess you guys have a good GM out there. Did either of those players WANT to play for the canucks in particular ??........of course Clarkson did indeed want to play for the leafs and Toronto of course DID NOT get a discount on Clarkson.........having said that....Clarkson apparently did have more $$$$ on the table from the Oilers and turned it down to play in Toronto, hence the deal he got.....Nonis either had to pay up or let him sign else-where.



Yes, both players wanted to play for VAN (BC boys), as Clarkson also wanted to play for TOR. I don't know what other offers were on the table for any of the players in question - but suffice to say, I think VAN got deals on both of their home-town acquisitions, while TOR did not.

Part of the reason is a culture of taking less to play here, so that the team is able to sign better players overall, and hence have a better and more competitive team. That culture was instilled 5 years ago, when the Sedin's and Kesler all took less than their current market values to stay with the team, and was followed with players like Hamhuis, Edler, Salo, Bieksa, Burrows, Hansen, etc. In some ways I think this has helped them, in other ways I think it has hurt them. But I like the fact that, so far, they have not signed a player to a contract that I feel is an overpayment.

quote:

Nuxfan, you really don`t think that Clarkson and Bolland don`t play a similar style to that of Gary Roberts ??......I know that one player can`t be the other, they are different people of course, not clones....but I certainly do think their play is very similar.



So, first of all Clarkson was a lot like Bolland. Now, Bolland and Clarkson are a lot like Gary Roberts. Pretty soon, Clarkson, Bolland, and Roberts will all be a lot like Crosby, and suddenly TOR will have 2 Crosby-like players in their lineup. Is this where we're going?

Gary Roberts definitely had similar characteristics to both players - all 3 were hard-nosed bang/crash players. However, Gary Roberts also managed to score nearly 1000 points in 1200 games, and was one of the best pure scoring power forwards in his day. Neither Clarkson nor Bolland will ever be that.

I think Clarkson is as much like Gary Roberts as he is like Brandon Prust.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4575 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2014 :  15:12:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, I hate to break it to you guys, but . . . Phaneuf IS a 7 million dollar player. He got it, he has it, he is it.

And if having to rate and judge all other elite d-men in the league . . .it frankly sounds about right, I agree with the so-called experts on most of the sports channels.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2014 :  19:52:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just cause he got it don't mean he is it, because in the world of Leafs players and contract value's, as value does not always equal pay. I will give you he is in a smaller, more sought after group of defenseman, but only part of his game would be considered elite. Totally expected this signing, however, because you get paid more to play in Hockey meca Toronto and he is the player who is the leader for the Leafs, on and off the ice.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2014 :  23:08:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've stayed mostly out of this thread because I really didn't have much to add. I'm lost in a way. On one hand, I don't think he's a 7M dman, but on the other, I think the Leafs needed to make this move. In a perfect world, the dollars would be closer to 6 or the term 4-5 but it is what it is. Imagine if they'd lost Phaneuf? With no one comparable on the FA market this summer, what would they do? Gardiner and Rielly certainly aren't ready to take on a role anywhere near what Phaneuf is providing. Franson? C'mon, this guy's a good dman, but not on the same level as Phaneuf. Heck, I'm prob one of only a handful of guys who wouldn't complain if Dion made Team Canada, though for the record, I don't think he's going to make it.
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Guest4062
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Posted - 01/03/2014 :  06:47:59  Reply with Quote
Phaneuf is NOT worth $7 million as a hockey player.

However, market value and true value are also NOT the same thing. Dion Phaneuf easily and without question gets this exact deal or a better deal as a free agent and a lot of teams would chase him. Say what you will about this propencity for the ill timed missed open ice check or how soft he actually is in the corners but guys like him are not a dime a dozen.

That said, I actually think Toronto made a mistake by signing him and they should have and could have traded him for value in the off season. They could have done a sign and trade as well. Bottom line, there are defensemen playing with the Leafs today who are likely to be better players than Phaneuf if given the time and opportunity. Now, those players will never get the chance as who ever the coach is for the Leafs (mark my works it would be Randy Carlyle this time next year) has to play Phaneuf as the #1 because he is getting paid as a #1.


The deal isn't a bad deal. It's market value. It's a bad deal because the Leafs could have gotten better by trading him. They will actually be worse in the long run with him and his contract is untradable for at least 2 seasons depending on the salary cap movement.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2014 :  08:48:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4062

Phaneuf is NOT worth $7 million as a hockey player.

However, market value and true value are also NOT the same thing. Dion Phaneuf easily and without question gets this exact deal or a better deal as a free agent and a lot of teams would chase him. Say what you will about this propencity for the ill timed missed open ice check or how soft he actually is in the corners but guys like him are not a dime a dozen.

That said, I actually think Toronto made a mistake by signing him and they should have and could have traded him for value in the off season. They could have done a sign and trade as well. Bottom line, there are defensemen playing with the Leafs today who are likely to be better players than Phaneuf if given the time and opportunity. Now, those players will never get the chance as who ever the coach is for the Leafs (mark my works it would be Randy Carlyle this time next year) has to play Phaneuf as the #1 because he is getting paid as a #1.


The deal isn't a bad deal. It's market value. It's a bad deal because the Leafs could have gotten better by trading him. They will actually be worse in the long run with him and his contract is untradable for at least 2 seasons depending on the salary cap movement.



When you say they should have looked at doing a "sign and trade", keep in mind, they could still trade him. Your suggestion that "they should have and could have traded him for value in the off season" could still happen no? From what i understand, his new deal has a "limited no trade clause" (Nonis apparently doesn't give full no movement clauses?) whereby he is allowed to supply a list of 10 (or more) teams to which he'd accept a move? Bottom line is, they couldn't risk not having him signed and go to UFA status where they'd lose him for nothing or potentially have another team make an even higher offer that they could possibly match (if he decided he wanted to stick in TO).

In fairness to Nonis and the Leafs, Phaneuf is durable (only 18 games missed as a Leaf ) and the Leafs have a winning record with him in the lineup (125-104-32 ). With salaries rising yet again and leaving this past lockout to seem ever so worthless, i don't think this is far off what a guy like Phaneuf is worth. It's not exactly a "hometown discount" and perhaps a slight overpay, but not by much. I'd be more concerned with the term the more i think about it and would have been a lot more comfortable with 5 years.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2014 :  09:40:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I love how a (125-104-32 ) record is considered a winning record. In todays NHL the Leafs have won 125 games in regulation, overtime and SO, while they have lost 136 in regulation, overtime and SO. To me that is a losing record. Either way I think the Leafs are a better team with Phaneuf in the lineup, but IMO he was paid $1 million more than what I think he is worth per season, because he is a very important part of the Leafs.
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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
207 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2014 :  10:22:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
like others have already said previously, the Leafs were in a bit of a bind with the Phaneuf contract simply because there was no easy replacement for him on the blue line. if he left as a UFA, there would have been a gaping hole on their defensive core. who fills those minutes? who plays against the other teams top line?

i don't believe Dion to be as bad a d-man as a lot of people make him out to be. but in today's market i also don't believe him to be worth upwards of $7M. having said that, 2 - 3 years down the road the market value may change, and $7M for someone like Dion may be fair value.
the other factor is that in 2 - 3 years Dion may continue to improve his game and prove to us all that he is worth what he signed for. the truth is that we never know what the future may hold. keeping in mind that he's still 28 years old.
let's not forget that Chara signed as a UFA long-term with Boston when he was around the same age as Dion is now. and it wasn't until his 5th season there that he captained them to the Cup. and i would argue that when he signed with Boston he still hadn't reached the peak of his career.
it even took a guy like Pronger quite a bit of time to become the stud defencemen he was/is. it wasn't until he was 32 when he lead Edmonton to the Cup final in 2006.
now quite obviously there is evidence supporting the exact opposite. Wade Redden comes to mind, just as one example. so Dion could very well go the other way.

only time will tell.....
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Guest2080
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Posted - 01/04/2014 :  07:20:42  Reply with Quote
A bunch of terrible posts in a row. Pronger in Edmonton was so much better than Phaneuf now it isn't funny. Phaneuf is declining in footspeed and will be a pylon by the end of this deal.

The leafs are a mediocre team overpaying to stay where they are. They are destined to finish 6-9th in the eastern conference (which sucks) and mayybe make the second round if Bernier stands on his head. If fans are fine with this, then ok. But it's not a recipe for becoming a legitimate cup contender.

Do I remember when MTL beat Pittsburgh and Washington a few years ago? Yes, they got spanked by philly who got spanked in the Final. Still a far cry from the cup even with a hot goalie and things breaking their way.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2014 :  15:45:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2080

A bunch of terrible posts in a row. Pronger in Edmonton was so much better than Phaneuf now it isn't funny. Phaneuf is declining in footspeed and will be a pylon by the end of this deal.

The leafs are a mediocre team overpaying to stay where they are. They are destined to finish 6-9th in the eastern conference (which sucks) and mayybe make the second round if Bernier stands on his head. If fans are fine with this, then ok. But it's not a recipe for becoming a legitimate cup contender.

Do I remember when MTL beat Pittsburgh and Washington a few years ago? Yes, they got spanked by philly who got spanked in the Final. Still a far cry from the cup even with a hot goalie and things breaking their way.

Toronto has 2 good goalies, 4-5 good to great offensive forwards, 3-4 offensive contributors on the blueline and to quote Burke (who I hate) they have just locked up a fairly talented defenseman with intensity and truculence. To be honest I have no idea what truculence is but I know Phaneuf's picture is beside it in the dictionary. I see this team making a playoff push. This might be the year of round 2 for the Leaf's.
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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
207 Posts

Posted - 01/05/2014 :  08:36:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2080

A bunch of terrible posts in a row. Pronger in Edmonton was so much better than Phaneuf now it isn't funny. Phaneuf is declining in footspeed and will be a pylon by the end of this deal.




exactly Pronger in Edmonton at 32 was better then Phaneuf now at 28. which tells me that there is still time for Phaneuf to keep improving his game.
and you want to talk footspeed? Do you think Chara & Weber are the fleetest of feet? being a good defenceman is about more then just footspeed.
look, i'm not saying Phaneuf is comparable to either Chara or Weber, but he's also not a complete clunker either.
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Guest9825
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Posted - 01/05/2014 :  17:00:24  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The_Gipper
exactly Pronger in Edmonton at 32 was better then Phaneuf now at 28. which tells me that there is still time for Phaneuf to keep improving his game.
and you want to talk footspeed? Do you think Chara & Weber are the fleetest of feet? being a good defenceman is about more then just footspeed.
look, i'm not saying Phaneuf is comparable to either Chara or Weber, but he's also not a complete clunker either.

look I'm not saying Joe nobody is bobby orr or Larry Robinson, but he is not a complete clunker either. See what I just did there?
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Guest2080
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Posted - 01/05/2014 :  19:47:38  Reply with Quote
Pronger being better at 32 than Phaneuf at 28 does not mean Phaneuf should continue to improve, it means that Pronger was just better at playing hockey. What's funny is that Phaneuf's cap hit is actually more than Chara, and the same as Doughty. His salary means he should be in the top 10 defencemen in the entire league, when really he's just above average.

Leafs improve their chance to make the second round of the playoffs, but hurt their long-term cup chances by signing him. I have no doubt he would have gotten paid outside of Toronto, though, so it was a tough spot for them because he would be hard to replace.
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