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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5809 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2014 :  23:59:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow! What a start to the Canucks / Flames game!!! The Flames, who as visiting team, submitted their starting line first and decided to start 5 of his toughest guys, including B. McGratton and K. Westgarth. Westgarth lined up with Kellen Lain, dressing for his first ever NHL game for the Canucks, to take the opening draw. Kevin Bieksa was having none of this, and stepped up (as a dman) to take the draw and of course, Westgarth dropped his gloves immediately. Then, it was all out line brawl! Funny thing is, Westgarth and Bieksa didn't end up "going". Bieksa ended up fighting someone else and Lain and Westgarth went afterall???

In the end, 8 guys (4 from each team) were kicked out just 2 seconds into the game, including Kellen Lain! Poor kid, his parents flew into town to see his first game too and got to see all of 2 seconds of ice time, not including the line brawl of course!

Both teams were essentially down to 4 dmen and Dennis Wideman led the way with over 38mins (game went to OT/Shootout) while Dan hamhuis was over 36!

Where it got really ugly, or at least could have, was when John Tortarella, who freaked out at Hartley and the rest of the Flames bench during the initial brawl, went to the Calgary dressing room as the players were leaving the ice at the end of the first period and verbally abuse lord knows who???? He was being held back, as were a lot of the Flames and their staff! Give Brian McGratton a lot of credit for holding off a bunch of guys and keeping Torts out of reach! Clint Malarchuk, the Flames goalie coach I believe, came screaming out of the crowd trying to get to Torts and he looked MAD! Was funny seeing McGratton grab him and hold him back as McGrats, esp on skates, is way bigger! Lol.

Here's what I don't get. Sure Calgary dressed a bunch of thugs to start the game. SO WHAT. Torts could have put the Sedin line out there to counter and try to score early. How is it he's got a beef with what happened when he countered with Weiss, Sestito, Lain (who's a big kid at 6'6"), Bieksa and Garrison??? Sure, he can use the excuse that he didn't want the Sedin line to get jumped but would Westgarth, McGratton and company really have dropped the gloves with the Sedins? I highly doubt it, especially from McGratton who's a pretty honest tou gh guy! Even if they did, the Canucks should have learned from their recent road trip that all you need to do is not drop your gloves, turtle, and end up with a 7min 2 man advantage!

Anyway, my whole point is that Torts is crazy to be pissed at the lineup Hartley put out there when he countered with his tough guys! I'm sure we're gonna see a really big fine and a suspension for Torts out of this!!!

Been a crazy past 4 games in Canuckland!!!!

Guest8014
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Posted - 01/19/2014 :  03:13:14  Reply with Quote
torteralla was coaching the rangers when the same thing happened...the devils started their tough guys in the rangers rink and a brawl ensued. What can you say, the guy likes to protect his barn! its old school hockey but entertaining.
I am enjoying the torterella hiring in Vancouver (so glad it wasn't Eakins!)
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4607 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  07:54:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's a puzzling move by Calgary, but ... maybe I missed something. What's the history here, anything that Calgary had a gripe about?

I don't blame Tortorella (who I generally dislike immensely) at all for sending out HIS tough guys, after he realised that Calgary had sent out the goons for the start of the game. Why take chances? They were clearly looking to brawl, so I would have countered in kind myself.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5809 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  08:48:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I had no prob with the lineup either coach put out. The two probs I have are....

1. Torts claiming he had to protect the Sedins who'd normally start. I just don't see Westgarth and/or McGratton going all Todd Bertuzzi on the Sedins and pummelling unwilling combatants! Its not like you can shield the Sedins frrom these tough guys all night. If Hartley really wanted them out there against the twins line he could simply make a line change during play!!!

2. This one is bothering me more than anything....COMPLAINING about Calgary's lineup and what transpired afterwards! Throw in his visit to the Flames dressing room and id say "enjoy your time off Torts" because a suspension is all but guaranteed as far as I'm concerned!
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4607 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  11:00:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

I had no prob with the lineup either coach put out. The two probs I have are....

1. Torts claiming he had to protect the Sedins who'd normally start. I just don't see Westgarth and/or McGratton going all Todd Bertuzzi on the Sedins and pummelling unwilling combatants! Its not like you can shield the Sedins frrom these tough guys all night. If Hartley really wanted them out there against the twins line he could simply make a line change during play!!!

2. This one is bothering me more than anything....COMPLAINING about Calgary's lineup and what transpired afterwards! Throw in his visit to the Flames dressing room and id say "enjoy your time off Torts" because a suspension is all but guaranteed as far as I'm concerned!



1) I think his line about protecting the Sedins is legitimate. There is no code out there . . . and he can't assume that the 5 brawlers out there wouldn't have done something extremely stupid with whoever was out there.

I think you are kidding yourself.

2) He has every right to complain about Calgary's line-up. His visit to the dressing room deserves suspension or a fine, I agree . . . but Hartley is the instigator here, and is the a-hole who started it.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5809 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  12:32:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

I had no prob with the lineup either coach put out. The two probs I have are....

1. Torts claiming he had to protect the Sedins who'd normally start. I just don't see Westgarth and/or McGratton going all Todd Bertuzzi on the Sedins and pummelling unwilling combatants! Its not like you can shield the Sedins frrom these tough guys all night. If Hartley really wanted them out there against the twins line he could simply make a line change during play!!!

2. This one is bothering me more than anything....COMPLAINING about Calgary's lineup and what transpired afterwards! Throw in his visit to the Flames dressing room and id say "enjoy your time off Torts" because a suspension is all but guaranteed as far as I'm concerned!



1) I think his line about protecting the Sedins is legitimate. There is no code out there . . . and he can't assume that the 5 brawlers out there wouldn't have done something extremely stupid with whoever was out there.

I think you are kidding yourself.

2) He has every right to complain about Calgary's line-up. His visit to the dressing room deserves suspension or a fine, I agree . . . but Hartley is the instigator here, and is the a-hole who started it.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



No offense, but I think it's YOU who's kidding themselves. When was the last time you saw an all out goon in the same sense that Westgarth and McGratton are, drop the gloves with a 100% unwilling combatant / top skilled player with 0 fights in his career and pummel him? It just doesn't happen, and is 100 times less likely since the Bertuzzi / Moore incident!

I can only imagine the suspension that one of those guys would have gotten if he did such a thing to the Sedin line!
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Guest8014
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Posted - 01/19/2014 :  12:46:59  Reply with Quote
How about John Scott dropping the gloves with phil keseel THIS YEAR????
like it or not it happens in the game in this era.
its your house, your ice, you protect it, and your elite players, at all costs.
good for torterella, I think the team rallies for him going forward.
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Guest0026
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Posted - 01/19/2014 :  17:05:09  Reply with Quote
I have no problem with the way either coach put out their lineup. But lets pretend we didn't know something was going to happen when torts responded by putting out a line of "big" guys.

What bothers me is:

1. Torts reaction, why get mad when you equally are to blame. You applaud your team in LA for being tough. Then go to Anaheim and look like a team of goons. Then get mad because you chose to "protect" your players by answering with your tough guys to start

2. Given this road trip I will defend Hartley's choice to put his tough guys out at the beginning of the game, his reasoning he tells the press is probably only to avoid a fine etc.
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Guest9825
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Posted - 01/19/2014 :  18:02:53  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014

How about John Scott dropping the gloves with phil keseel THIS YEAR????
like it or not it happens in the game in this era.
its your house, your ice, you protect it, and your elite players, at all costs.
good for torterella, I think the team rallies for him going forward.

Scott is not a character tough guy like McGratton.
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Guest8014
( )

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  18:44:14  Reply with Quote
what do u define as character tough guy? I believe last time these two teams met mcgrattan was ejected for an elbow to the head. that may be what fuelled the fire having him start in the canucks barn
still not sure I understand the character tough guy. Plus it was westgarth wasn't it who dropped his gloves first, is he a "character" tough guy too?
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just1n
PickupHockey Pro



251 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  21:41:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Can't both 4th lines just play? I get why the Canucks 4th line was put on, but... just play a bit first so someone can actually do something to get everyone all riled up.

Why did Kellan Lain get booted out of the game? I didn't see the game...
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5809 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  00:15:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
8014.....Yes, Scott went after Kessel. The important thing here is, it was during the game and "stuff" had happened whereby he wouldn't get nearly the punishment as what Westgarth would have had he grabbed Henrik off the opening faceoff and pummelled him! It was mentioned by a "panel" guy tonight (can't recall who) that he could not recall a single time in the history of the NHL that a high end player (don't wanna call him a star or elite as that will surely just get us off topic on a debate about the current state of the Sedins) getting pounded on by a "goon" off the opening draw. Feel free to fire away with a situation where this actually happened?

0026......Kind of what I was getting at. I'm okay with Torts putting his tough guys out there, but own up to the fact that you are part to blame for what occurred! Also, on a side note, I don't think the Canucks really went into Anaheim and gooned it up? The fighting didn't occur till the game was well outta reach and the early penalties were things like tripping and hooking, etc if I recall correctly.

Just1n....Lain, along with Garrison, Bieksa and Weise were all tossed for secondary scraps (scraps after a scrap had started). Not sure how they decided this as a lot of gloves were dropped at the same time. In fairness, Bieksa and Westgarth were the original two off the draw to drop gloves, yet they didn't even fight and then Lain ended up fighting Westgarth as one of the last fights to start. So, he def was a secondary scrap and worthy of the game misconduct.
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just1n
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251 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  12:22:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Alex - I did not know that rule!
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Guest4178
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Posted - 01/20/2014 :  13:35:22  Reply with Quote
I agree with Alex's overall assessment of what took place on Saturday night. And it's noteworthy that Alex is identifiably a Canucks fan, but one with objectivity in his summation. So far him to criticism his home team's coach shows credibility.

In addition, I agree with Alex that it's rare for a team's top enforcer to go after a star player, especially at the beginning of the game.

I do remember the John Scott - Phil Kessel incident, but it was kinda laughable in some ways. Most enforcers would not (and have not) engaged a star player like Scott did, but (here's the slightly laughable part), Kessel was never going to fight Scott. And sure enough, he skated away from the encounter (Scott couldn't catch Kessel if he tried), two Leafs players jumped Scott (appropriately), and Kessel came back at Scott with a few whacks with his stick. There was never going to be a full-blown fight between the two players, so no harm, but definitely a few fouls. (For which appropriate suspensions were levied.)

I'm not sure what exists as a "code," and while I understand the comment that there is no "code," I don't think there's a complete lack of respect in the game today. Like most things, respect exists in varying degrees, with some players more than others.

Getting back to the Canucks-Flames game, I think both coaches share responsibility for what took place. When you put out a fourth line (and mostly tough guys), you are sending a message to the other team. Bob Hartley is completely in his rights to send out any lineup he wants, and John Torterella cannot be faulted for responding in kind.

As for what took place afterwards, should either coach be surprised? Even before they dropped the puck, the players knew what was about to happen, so I'm sure the coaches did too!

Interesting to see Bob Hartley's reaction (or lack thereof) after the melee. He was calm and composed. As for Torterella's tirade, that's his personality and style. Hey some people thought Patrick Roy went "NUTso" (I like this term) at the beginning of the season, and while it's a stretch to suggest this was instrumental to the Avalanche's great start (and very good season so far), it didn't hurt!

So maybe this provides a turning point for the Canucks. They did win the game after all, and that's really the point!
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dgg1412
Top Prospect



Canada
29 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  13:58:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Canucks just got back from a road trip that they gooned there way threw. Hartley started his forth line to show that the Flames wouldn't be pushed around. Torts could have started anyone he wanted but chose to start his forth line. Everyone knew that a fight was going to happen as soon as they saw who started. So not too worried about that bit. The issues I have are:

Torts saying that he was protecting his players BULLS**T if he stated the sisters no one would have jumped them.

Hartley saying that he was rewarding the forth line because of there play against the Jets BULLS**T he was sending a message that the Flames would not be pushed around.

Burrows trying to act tough and taking swings at players with a full face shield on. If your wearing a full shield you cant be swinging at guy or complaining when someone hits you back.

We will find out today the length and amount that Torts actions after the first will cost him so we don't need to get back into how stupid it was. But his forget everything I do and painting the Canucks as victims attitude is getting old. He coaches his teams to play tough and has them go over the line many times. If you can't stand someone being tough back, then stop doing it yourself.

All that aside the brawl will help both teams moving forward. Easier for the coaches to get the room to buy into the everyone is against us rant now.

There is fault on both sides for the brawl but it was Torts who really stepped over the line.

Edited by - dgg1412 on 01/20/2014 13:59:14
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5809 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  14:24:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dgg1412

The Canucks just got back from a road trip that they gooned there way threw.

Why do i keep reading this sort of thing? I'm just curious, did you watch ANY of the games or perhaps just the LA one? Did you read some stuff or watch some highlights? Because i personally don't think they "gooned THEIR way THROUGH" any of the games. They simply came out vs LA with the attitude that "if you're gonna push us around like you normally do, we're gonna stand up to it this time". Nothing stupid happened in the Anaheim game until it was out of reach and even then it wasn't as though the Canucks gooned it up. The Phoenix game? Well, if you managed to watch more than half of it, you did better than i, however, there wasn't even a fight in that game? Anyway, that LA game was one of the most entertaining Canuck games i've ever seen, and now due to the way they played, the haters are starting to complain that they play like goons? I just don't get it???

quote:
Originally posted by dgg1412

Torts saying that he was protecting his players BULLS**T if he stated the sisters no one would have jumped them.

Hartley saying that he was rewarding the forth line because of there play against the Jets BULLS**T he was sending a message that the Flames would not be pushed around.


Couldn't agree more. I already touched on my feelings towards Torts' crap, but Hartley's is pretty comical actually. I agree with whoever said he was prob doing his best to avoid a fine by claiming he was rewarding these guys for good play! Lol.

quote:
Originally posted by dgg1412

Burrows trying to act tough and taking swings at players with a full face shield on. If your wearing a full shield you cant be swinging at guy or complaining when someone hits you back.

Maybe i need to watch this again? I'm pretty sure i didn't see Burrows take the first swing. I'm also pretty sure i didn't see him "complain when someone hits you back" unless you're talking about the unknow (to us viewers) words he exchanged with the Calgary player after he was punched? Either my "orca tinted glasses" skewed my view, or this is just another "find ANYTHING to complain about Burrows" things? Just sayin'....

quote:
Originally posted by dgg1412
But his forget everything I do and painting the Canucks as victims attitude is getting old.

Ummm, he's been coach for 48 games? What exactly is getting old? He's come in here and tried to change the perception of this team and this, from what i recall, is the first major incident where you could even bring something like this up! You make it seem like he's been doing things like this here in Vancouver for 3 years or something???

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Guest4178
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Posted - 01/20/2014 :  15:08:17  Reply with Quote
While the coaches (and players) deserve most of the blame for what took place, does anyone think the referees hold some responsibility? (Emphasis on some.)

I watched the game live on Saturday night (and I've seen the replays numerous times), and for the amount of shenanigans taking place before the puck was dropped, I'm somewhat surprised one of the referees did not either talk to the benches or throw out a few players. Tortorella was screaming at the officials (and the Calgary bench) well before the puck was dropped. And while a full-on line brawl could not have necessarily been predicted by the officials, you could see things were about to erupt. (Fourth lines starting for both teams, players jawing at each other, players moving positions to face off against a player, etc.)

In the minute before the puck dropped, the television commentators' comments included the following: "Both teams are starting their fourth lines (expressed with surprise)," "The officials may have their hands full," "This could be an interesting start." And they made these comments from the broadcast booth, a hundred feet or more from ice level. I'm sure the officials heard or observed things which should have given them a clearer indication of the level of animosity on the ice.

And while hindsight is at play, I actually made the comment "they're going to toss some players" before they eventually dropped the puck. I was surprised they did not. I've seen less animosity expressed before a faceoff, and misconducts being given out. Once again, I think the coaches (and players) are mostly to blame, but I can't help but think things could have been defused a bit by the striped shirts. But who knows, a few misconducts may have only delayed the inevitable, but we will never know for sure.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5809 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  15:16:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It may have helped to toss a few 10min misconducts i guess? The only other thing i can think they could have done is to warn the players on the ice that they'd be tossed if they fought but would this have stopped them? I mean, they did this anyway? Lol. Surely it wouldn't have hurt to say something to both teams at that point?
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  16:17:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Torts is trying to instil something into the Canucks lineup which they haven`t had for years.....guts, determination, and a no back down winning attitude.....I LOVE IT !!!!!.....this kind of stuff will give the Canucks more back - bone and make them a tighter group in the dressing room.

Torts make be a media nut case but he is far from hockey stupid....he knows exactly what he is doing and has a Stanley cup ring to prove it.

Don`t listen to Mike Johnson on tsn trash talking Torts.....he has no idea what torts is up to.....Johnson was a candy ass player and he is a candy ass hockey analyst .
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just1n
PickupHockey Pro



251 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  16:39:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, Torts suspended for 15 days (6 games). Does that mean anything except that he can't be behind the bench during games?
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Guest4377
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Posted - 01/20/2014 :  17:05:28  Reply with Quote
No interaction with the team/club whatsover allowed during the 15 day suspension, until he's allowed to peek his head out on Groundhog Day. (And no pay either.)
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5809 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  17:10:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, got an alert on my phone and saw the 15 and thought it was games, not days!!! I read that he's "NOT permitted to have any interactions with the Canucks during the term of his suspension".

I'd be really interested to hear how this is policed?
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5809 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  17:32:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Apparently Hartley was fined $25,000 for his part??? That's a tough one. While i do think he's to take a little blame, i didn't know there was a rule by which you couldn't start ANY 5 of your players who are dressed that night?
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just1n
PickupHockey Pro



251 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  17:50:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Who takes over, Sullivan or Gulutzan?

Two week vacation!
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Guest4377
( )

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  18:01:33  Reply with Quote
These two teams faceoff against each other on March 8th, another HNIC matchup.

Any chance we will see "Round 2?" Probably not. Time has a way of cooling things down, and the league will be watching this game very closely. It's also very unlikely either team will start their fourth line? And by not likely, I mean no chance.

I'm not suggesting a clean or passive game by the way, but I don't foresee line brawls taking place. Just a little truculence as Brian Burke likes to say! :)
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3598 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  18:05:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Apparently Hartley was fined $25,000 for his part??? That's a tough one. While i do think he's to take a little blame, i didn't know there was a rule by which you couldn't start ANY 5 of your players who are dressed that night?




I read an article that stated there was credible evidence that Westgarth was instructed to fight on the opening faceoff, and the NHL mentioned it in their reasoning for the fine. I suspect that was why Hartley was fined.

Hartley can spin this any way he likes (rewarding his 4th line, really???), but it was clear from the get-go that the Flames 4th line was out there for a reason. The refs knew, Torts knew (there were several shots to him before the puck drop, he was smiling and shaking his head), Bieksa knew because he took Lain out of the faceoff dot to spare him a beatdown in front of his parents in his first NHL game. Everyone knew how that game was going to start, and Westgarth's gloves were off as soon as the puck hit the ice. For either side to claim innocence when a game starts that way is ridiculous.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5809 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  19:55:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nux....I still think the strangest part of all that is that Lain and Westgarth ended up scrapping anyway? How Westgarth and Bieksa didnt go is shocking!
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Guest4400
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Posted - 01/21/2014 :  05:39:58  Reply with Quote
If I was an NHL head coach, I would totally start my 4th line right off the hop every game in the opposing teams arena. And as for Bieska and Westgarth not fighting, apparently they are buddies.
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just1n
PickupHockey Pro



251 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2014 :  09:15:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, Sullivan will be the head coach.
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/hockey/vancouver-canucks/Vancouver+Canucks+turn+Mike+Sullivan/9409773/story.html

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Guest2697
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Posted - 01/22/2014 :  11:22:22  Reply with Quote
So it is proven now that hartley sent his guys out to "make something happen". And that p**** Shane O'brien wouldnt fight kassian because they were already down a couple defensemen. Hartley has always been scum in this league. Torotrella was right in not starting his top line players, especially with Henrik already injured and burrows just coming back from a major injury because they would have been jumped..
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just1n
PickupHockey Pro



251 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2014 :  13:49:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now the Canucks are shutting down a couple guys trying to make a few t-shirts? I don't get this at all. On what grounds can they even do this?
#freetorts

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/free-torts-t-shirts-draw-canucks-wrath-1.2510094
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5809 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2014 :  17:41:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is not the least bit surprising. It's no different than that pizza guy during the 2010 Olympics who was forced to change the name of his "Olympic Pizza" place?

It's all bureaucratic bs that goes on in the corporate world daily.
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